Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion

[MusicRider]

If you take egress as madness sorc now, you lose 100 extra force, and you run into force starvation that much quicker.

 

it's a case of give with one hand, take with the other, and as I said the skill tax for egress was raised and ignored.

 

For whatever reason Bioware absolutely loathes sorcs.

 

I don't know. As I said in the above post I haven't noticed a massive deal breaking force starvation without the extra 100 force.... I have become much more paranoid on what ability I use though. And IMHO what is given with one hand is much more than what is taken with the other, at least as a madness sorc.

[MusicRider]

Rage is not viable. There is no reason, whatsoever to use it over combat/carnage. But please, lets not get off track about it here, I apologize for bringing it up.

 

There has never been a reason to use it over carnage as long as arenas are concerned. But this is not a smash thread so let's not get sidetracked too much.

[Orderken]

Skimming this thread, a number of posts have highlighted the fact that Sage self-heals < other classes' damage reduction cooldowns, because Sage self-heals (1) have an activation time, resource cost, or both, which almost always reduce DPS and (2) underperform damage reduction cooldowns for high-damage mechanics (e.g., Dread Bomb).

 

For PVP, stuns are another reason that Seer or Telekinetics self-heals < others' damage reduction. Only damage reduction, or a preemptive self-heal off the GCD (e.g., Adrenaline Rush), increases the likelihood that a player who is being focusing (and, therefore, will be stunned) will survive.

[AlrikFassbauer]

And I'm guessing 98 % of the population has a L2P issue then.

 

Regading a) the infamous H2F post, and b) the remarks of high-end players both in PvE and in PvP stating how well they can work with every class (with the Sage / Sorc being only one among many), I indeed tend to believe nowadays that this is actually true.

 

98 % have an L2P issue - and people want the game to be balanced around the best players there are, at least this was stated several times in the PvP forum.

 

Which gives them - cynically speaking - the perfect chance to look down on everyone else ... No wonder that the phrase of "L2P" is one of the most used ones within the PvP forum ...

 

Maybe I've become too much of a Cynic over the years ...

[MarsherMeow]

Not sure if serious, but here goes.

 

The idea is that one could CHOOSE to change the animations or KEEP them if they wished. So if you like the originals, keep them.

 

A similar question about alternate animations from the cartel market was asked on the dev stream last(?) week and met with the technical limitations answer so I would expect the devs to give you the same answer to.

 

Also these questions are for the combat team and animations are more of an art issue.

Edited April 10, 2014 by MarsherMeow

[Master-Nala]

This has been a great week to be a Sage, but the jealous hordes are circling. I see little likelihood that the survivability question will garner a response people like, but it's still the issue people bring up the most. So, in light of 2.7, what say you Force Masters? How are we doing?

[Dyvim]

A similar question about alternate animations from the cartel market was asked on the dev stream last(?) week and met with the technical limitations answer so I would expect the devs to give you the same answer to.

 

Also these questions are for the combat team and animations are more of an art issue.

 

Link? The game was built by slapping different animations on top of functionally identical skills...so it would be fascinating to hear what technical problems they think they would have, since the game was built to do what they would be claiming they cant do...or haven't already done with kick the huttball, and alternate out of combat regens...

[Master-Nala]

Link? The game was built by slapping different animations on top of functionally identical skills...so it would be fascinating to hear what technical problems they think they would have, since the game was built to do what they would be claiming they cant do...or haven't already done with kick the huttball, and alternate out of combat regens...

 

Don't shoot the messenger. I fear you will get the same answer to the question when we ask it, so be hopeful but realistic. As I tried to explain (and you called me a troll...you meanie ), unlike with Kick the Huttball and the out of combat regens, you aren't talking about powers that affect a myriad of other abilities. Also, at least with TK throw your new animation has to deal with interrupts and pushback. I'm not saying it is impossible, just it's probably a good bit harder than you think.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Master-Nala

[Benets]

we should do the same nibbon did, quit sage

[Dyvim]

Don't shoot the messenger. I fear you will get the same answer to the question when we ask it, so be hopeful but realistic. As I tried to explain (and you called me a troll...you meanie ), unlike with Kick the Huttball and the out of combat regens, you aren't talking about powers that affect a myriad of other abilities. Also, at least with TK throw your new animation has to deal with interrupts and pushback. I'm not saying it is impossible, just it's probably a good bit harder than you think.

 

Perhaps, but I bet someone with the right tools could go into the game files right now, find the shock and project animation files, copy shock ani,, rename it, and replace the project ani and it would work fine...Not that I am suggesting client side modding, but instead I am commenting on the nature of the game and its technical limitations. I bet there is even a different ani for the shock or project double hit (talent upheaval) and you could switch those out, as well. All the animations in the game are just files. With names. That are called by other parts of the engine. I bet the game designers could do this in a matter of seconds. So what is the difference in replacing it with the already in the game Force Burst ani? Probably VERY VERY LITTLE.

 

So I find it incredibly unbelievable given the nature of this game and how animations are kept in separate files and called by the engine, and given how the game was built with identical skills having different animations slapped on top of them, to not make this work easily. If not, then it won't be the first time it has appeared that the devs know little about their own game and how it plays...lol.

 

Of course the other piece of the puzzle is simple. Money. We aren't asking for them to do this outside of the cartel market, where they would see an immediate return on any effort they put into providing their customers what they wanted.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Dyvim

[Ycoga]

A similar question about alternate animations from the cartel market was asked on the dev stream last(?) week and met with the technical limitations answer so I would expect the devs to give you the same answer to.

 

Also these questions are for the combat team and animations are more of an art issue.

 

He has a point. Maybe, Nala, you shoudl focus on the actual problem (Sage feels like mage, not Jedi) - instead of venturing into the realm of possible solutions.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Ycoga

[MusicRider]

This has been a great week to be a Sage, but the jealous hordes are circling. I see little likelihood that the survivability question will garner a response people like, but it's still the issue people bring up the most. So, in light of 2.7, what say you Force Masters? How are we doing?

 

Maybe it makes it clear that it focusses in very speicifi survibility "issues" and they can be formed as a questrion, e.g. what do you think about the sistuation that sages take more damage by design, so require more healing, but given their healing capabilities they dont add up to the main healers but in order to use them you have to sac dps which is not welcome in high end raiding with enrage timers..... something like that.

 

You could also maybe start by saying that the 2.7 changes the general consensus and overall feeling is that it has made sages play much smoother and nicer....

[Ycoga]

So, in light of 2.7, what say you Force Masters? How are we doing?

 

Please don't waste a question on survivability. <3

[MidichIorian]

How are we doing?

Stack mechanic is horrible and made the class really boring to play. That's about it.

[judgeender]

Survivability is pretty much unchanged in PvE. Sages/Sorcs are still taking more damage which means they either require additional healing from the healers or they have to stop DPSing in order to heal themselves (along with all the problems that creates). The changes to Force Barrier are not as helpful in PvE as PvP because the new addition is based on how long the Barrier is channeled and Channeling time is time not doing your role. It also remains unusable in certain circumstances (six finger phase on Brontes where if used it can lead to a wipe). The problem stem from the fact that Sages/Sorcs have no way to mitigate damage unless they stop DPSing combined with light armor resulting in more damage taken.

[Ramalina]

Haven't really tried stuff out post 2.7 yet, the changes look like a modest buff in PvP without screwing up PvE too much, so I suppose that's nice.

 

Not really that unhappy with life as a sage healer at the moment though.

 

If I were going for improvements, cleanses working on all damage types and being on a slightly shorter cooldown would be nice.

 

So would better healing on the move/while focused. The pushback reductions and post Force Barrier immunity should help at least a bit in PvP I guess. I'd sort of like for that short cast, absurdly force inefficient, heal that I use so infrequently that I don't even remember its name, to be castable on the move. If it could be done without making sage heals brokenly OP it'd probably motivate me to take notice of it at times when I'm not in blind panic emergency burst healing mode.

 

Ok I went and looked it up. Benevolence. If I could cast Benevolence on the move it'd be a somewhat interesting tradeoff of force management vs. mobility. Probably very useful in PvP, and an interesting option in certain specific PvE situations.

[Chemic_al]

Well from PvE, doing nightmare fortress Draxus, I stole aggro on a near-dead subteroth, was full health (38.7k or so in Dread forged min-max) and hit a very small lag spike and was one-shot for 46k by the explosion. And before you say anything, no I didn't have the debuff from other subteroths giving me increased damage. Point is I probably don't survive that even with a static bubble.

 

It's this sort of BS I'm getting fed up of dealing with when other classes would survive this nonsense, or at least have a much better chance of surviving if they were caught out this way.

 

So... just where is our defensive cooldown?

 

*sigh*

Edited April 12, 2014 by Chemic_al

[AlrikFassbauer]

Well from PvE, doing nightmare fortress Draxus, I stole aggro on a near-dead subteroth, was full health (38.7k or so in Dread forged min-max) and hit a very small lag spike and was one-shot for 46k by the explosion. And before you say anything, no I didn't have the debuff from other subteroths giving me increased damage. Point is I probably don't survive that even with a static bubble.

 

I'd like to see that, because that would interest me. How would a Sage fare in that bubble against that explosion ? I really don't know.

[Gyronamics]

Well from PvE, doing nightmare fortress Draxus, I stole aggro on a near-dead subteroth, was full health (38.7k or so in Dread forged min-max) and hit a very small lag spike and was one-shot for 46k by the explosion. And before you say anything, no I didn't have the debuff from other subteroths giving me increased damage. Point is I probably don't survive that even with a static bubble.

 

It's this sort of BS I'm getting fed up of dealing with when other classes would survive this nonsense, or at least have a much better chance of surviving if they were caught out this way.

 

So... just where is our defensive cooldown?

 

*sigh*

 

You would have survived with Force Speed or dare I say it, Barrier.

 

No other class would have survived without hitting something and you say lag prevented you so it's all a bit of a pointless example.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Gyronamics

[ceazare]

Subteroth explosions don't hit for 46k unless you have a stack on you.

 

From survivability point of view DF NiM is actually quite ok, since there aren't insanely tight dps checks except on last phase in Brontes. But you have 30% DR when stunned on that one. She stuns and knocks back when she does here tentacle shooting attack on a random person.

Edited April 12, 2014 by ceazare

[judgeender]

Subteroth's don't hit for 46k (at least not unless you have a debuff), so I'm not sure how you died from just one exploding if you were at full health. If there was lag, perhaps you were hit by something else first.

 

30% DR when stunned only exists if you are full madness/balance spec. While one-shot deaths don't appear to exist, the damage being taken by sorcs/sages does still exceed other classes/specs with no way to mitigate that damage without stopping DPS, including during Brontes fight. Not to say Sage/Sorc dps isn't possible, but it does lead to a preference for classes that don't require so much healer attention.

[Chemic_al]

You would have survived with Force Speed or dare I say it, Barrier.

 

No other class would have survived without hitting something and you say lag prevented you so it's all a bit of a pointless example.

 

Not really - any other dps class + static bubble, due to their inherent mitigation makes it. Sorcs don't.

[Darth_Dreselus]

Can we see the log? 46k does indeed sound a bit so much from a single Subterroth. I had them explode on me as heals and definitely did not take that much damage. Could have been something else hitting you too. Edited April 12, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[colemanron]

I would throw in a potential question addressing a number of (partially) newly added issues to the class. Its main focus is DPS QoL, so it could bring up a number of issues and ask 1 question afterwards, like "Do you plan on fixing these problems and/or improving the QoL of the class in other ways?"

 

 

 

First and foremost: Lightning/TK AoE

 

I don't think the old "feature" for aoe capability should be brought back, because I honestly think it was a bug, and it was never intended for the aoe and the single target abilities to proc Chain Lightning/TK Wave on a different internal cooldown. However the new system is pretty screwed. Granting the proc on ability activation works like a charm on both Lightning Strike/Disturbance and Thundering Blast/Turbulence, but it fails miserably on Storm/Quake. The ideal aoe roation would be something like:

 

Hardcast CL/TK Wave > FS/Quake > Instant CL/TK Wave > FS/Quake > Hardcast CL/TK Wave > FS/Quake > and so on

 

There are two fails in here:

1. Due to the travel time of the initial hardcast the following activation will grant a proc instantly, and it will be consumed by the previous cast. This could be easily fixed by FS/Quake granting the proc on dealing damage.

2. Once in the rotation if not doing it ideally, it is very easy for a FS/Quake activation to just miss the 10 second lockout of the proc. Which means the ability needs to be broken and recasted ASAP, to avoid wasting time on the lockout, which leads to an awkward feel of the aoe rotation. This could be easily fixed too by FS/Quake granting the proc on dealing damage

 

Numerous players have seen this issue on the PTS and posted about this, and yet it ended up being ignored, and making it to the live servers anyway. Don't be afraid of long tooltips, we all can read.

 

 

 

Second thing is: Madness/Balance and Force Lightning/TK Throw

 

Even the devs admitted in the discussion of the Wrath/Presence of Mind stacks that in 2.7 the ideal rotaion will be breaking FL/TKT every single time after 3 ticks, and consume the Wrath/PoM stacks on whatever comes next in the rotation. Changing a spec in a way like this is straight up stupid, as it both goes against their original ability design and changes the playing field in the wrong direction.

 

This change makes skill less valuable in sustained DPS compared to quality of connection and the quality of hardware. Also on top of this it encourages macroing. I know it is not allowed, but it is happening, and apparently Bioware doesn't really have the tools to do much against it, so at the very least they should not encourage it with mechanics like this. Changing FL/TKT to deal more damage with each tick as the channel goes ahead may help this issue, and could even possibly fix it.

 

Also Madness/Balance could very much use a tool that allows them to set up hitting the button of which abilities should and should not break an ongoing channel, thus allowing them to use the ability queue to combat lag more effectively. And a tool that helps the spec tell their own and other Madness/Balance players dots apart.

 

 

 

Third and last I came up with is: ability pushback for Lightning/TK

 

SURPRISE

 

Posted about this just enough, won't type everything all over again the 100th time, links below.

 

Sorcerer terminology: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=732370

 

Sage terminology: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=732372

 

 

 

One could say it's too long, I say it's one question, and always can be worded to be shorter. Also I would definitely support an actual balance question over "The Sage as a Jedi", because asking about aesthetics sends the (false) message that "our class is near perfect, so don't you dare change anything on it before 3.0".

 

Didn't see any answer from anyone, so putting it back out there.

[Mr_Fuzzle]

Didn't see any answer from anyone, so putting it back out there.

 

Issue 1: Reverting to the bugged, unintended AoE situation that was TK pre 2.7 would be a mistake. Do I miss my AoE capabilities? Yes. Do I think it was a necessary change? Yes. While the bug causing the hardcast TK Wave to eat the Tidal Force proc is annoying, I've taken to using TK Wave > Disturbance > TK Wave for AoE situations to avert this problem. I'd like to see this get fixed, don't get me wrong, but there are ways to work around it.

 

Issue 2: This is a L2P issue regarding player timing not necessarily lag. So long as your latency is consistent, you can time your clip based off your cast. My only qualm is that this change makes the spec even more boring than it was before. Granted it does play quite a bit faster so that's a nice change from the pedestrian nature of the spec before.

 

Issue 3: The devs addressed KBN's post on the PTS regarding this and said they're looking into pushback. No need to burn a question on this.

 

Out of these, the only thing that MAY merit a question is the consumption of Tidal Force by a hardcast TK Wave. As it stands the current questions have more merit than any of these. The only exception possibly being Balance DPS which the devs have already said they're looking into. Sufficient response?