Thanks for the input, but all the info you gave us was that the last tick of Cull happens around 0,05 seconds before SoS's in their respective casts, and that your latency is around 0,1 second. While the first one is useful, the second is less so, as lag varies from server to server, network to network, hardware to hardware. Obviously everyone can work around this like your are, it's not impossible, but my point is, it should not be required. It assumes 100% consistent latency, which doesn't exist, so by doing this you rely on a variable staying static and your own precision on timing. All you do, is use what you were given, of course. What I'm saying is, that you should be given the same tools others have. Like ability queue. By doing what you're doing you are not dealing with game mechanics that are intentional skillchecks, you are dealing with unintended technical difficulties the best you can. In other words you are handicapped, and even your method isn't putting you to 100% performance, only close to it, with a lot more effort than it should take. What I'm trying to say is that everybody playing the spec has the same issue, it is no mistake all guides, (some written by some of the best players out there) contain the same tips to work around this as much as possible, and it should be fixed. An obvious solution would be adding a setting which is probably fairly easy to code and it could even out the playing field a bit more.

Sages/Sorcs didn't bother to make a question about this or even mention it in the class rep initiative, but since the issue is much more obviously visible on Lethality snipers than it is on Madness/Balance, I hope the community here can be convinced otherwise, or someone will be kind enough to explain to me where my theory is going wrong. Let us start at the begininng: someone at some point in the distant past made up an awesome idea, called ability queue. Its purpose was to try and remove latency from the combat system of MMOs as much as it can be. Of course all games copied the idea, including SWToR, but it can't be used on all abilities. What abilities are there that won't allow you to use it? Channels, that are longer than a GCD. Why? Because if you push another ability's button before the channel is over, it will be broken if it's done anytime past the originally triggered GCD expired. What does Bioware do to fix this? A number of things all pointing in the direction of being too lazy or unable to make it go away from its roots. For instance: FT proccing at the end of SoS channel in MM, 2% alacrity in Lethality, etc. Just how bad is this exactly? No one is actually complaining about this - or at least i haven't seen them posting here. So let me give you the most obvious example out there for a quick demonstration: Lethality snipers spend ~50% of the time doing one of their two 3 second channel, SoS or Cull. Also Culls cooldown gives the rhytm of the rotation, being the highest priority ability to cast. There is meant to be spot for 4 GCDs after each Cull used before the next one, with a couple 0.1s of second to spare due to the 2% alacrity coming from the spec (and some even gear for it), but after playing around with it a bit, one can't help but notice, there isn't even 4 full GCDs, let alone more. Of course that fact only makes a practical difference in every second rotation, as in the one where dots go up, consuming all 4 (partially) available GCDs is a must, but in the following rotation without exception every guide suggests if you can't do either Lazed Target Snipe or EP the players best choice is to roll from meele range, as it doesn't consume a full GCD, only requires ~1 sec. And if it's not an option in an actual fight, they should do nothing, because even doing nothing is a better option than delaying Cull slightly (~0,5 sec) with an autoattack. The whole point is: why using the 4th available GCD goes on to delay the next Cull, when on paper we not only have enough, but plenty of time to finish all 4? The answer is simple: server lag. And it hurts Lethality badly, because on every channel we lose some time, as we don't get to use the ability queue. Apparently using one/two 3 second cast in each 9 second window gives us 0.5+ second of delay. Not only it is more than what the 2% alacrity given in the skill tree negates, but it is enough to achieve that against all our gut feelings doing nothing at certain points is better than doing something. I am fairly confident this was never intended by the devs. What could we do? Well of course some could say I need to learn to play (as no doubt some will), but that would mean all Lethality snipers need to L2P, by ripping apart their latency in a bazillion of parses, and master the perfect moment for "breaking" the channel, when all ticks of damage is already registered by the server, but the castbar is still not finished on the screen. And honestly, if you need to do that, wadafakk is the point of having a castbar on screen? What I want is the option to be able to set up what abilities should and should not break respective channels, or at the very least an on/off option for channels to be broken by pressing the button for another ability. In other words the option to use the ability queue on channels longer than a GCD. Getting to use it would make this problem pretty much go away. I am fairly confident if the latency were removed from the rotation, it allowed higher APM, and Lethality would do noticably better DPS wise, moving the spec and the class overall higher in the foodchain, somewhere around the place it deserves. Also this could help the other caster classes, so basically the entire game in general, even if the latency is not quiete as visible in others' rotation as it is in ours. Please give me your toughts, and help put some dev attention to this if the consensus will be it is deserving of it.

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Nice video with awesome music, and btw I *********** hate fighting against you. Keep it up dude!

Fair enough. I would suggest then to add the issues I brought up earlier to feedback.

For the record: are the topics of the questions finalized then?

If I had to write it down, I would rather do it as a priority list, I think it's easier to explain that way. 1. Thundering Blast combo 2. Crushing Darkness 3. Procs 4. Lightning Strike Explanation: 1. The whole spec is about Thundering Blast, use it on cooldown. There are 2 variations for the TB combo, you need to alternate the 2 because of Afflictions uptime: A: Affliction > Thundering Blast > Lightning Strike B: Thundering Blast > Lightning Strike 2. Use CD on cooldown, but don't let it affect your TB combo. 3. Make sure you consume both procs before the next TB combo comes around. They will always be available right after your last TB combo. Also make sure you use the 2 charges of Recklessness on them when available. 4. Fill whatever time you have left with LS Obviously use Polarity Shift on cooldown. Some play around with CD and PS, but I found the pain in the bottom half it gives is bigger than the DPS gain. Also as of 2.7 CD takes 100% ability pushback, but PS grants full immunity, so now it makes more sense to not skip CD while PS is up. Your opener rotation looks good, cba to actually count the GCDs, but I assume you already done it and done it right. The base principle is the same as written above, with the only change being the precast of CD. Just out of curiousity what is the "old rotation"? As far as I'm concerned nothing actually changed, other than we added a LS to the TB combo. Also I would say screw the relics, they will proc at completely random times anyway, it is not even really worth looking at. Just make sure you get the casts off you want, when you want them. As for Draxus it may be more tricky than it looks. While CL sounds very good in theory there, when the mobs are under the shield, if I remember correctly they only take damage if you are no more than 4 meters away from them. So the fact you can hit the one you are hitting does not mean you hit all of them under the shield. I found the best way being to stand right on top of the middle mob. You may be doing this already, but this is the least obvious tip I can think of. Other than that don't cast CD when you are at high risk of taking damage. No need to say anything, I am Captain Obvious all right.

Apparently we agree on the first one. As for the second how is trying to break the channel at the right moment not a workaround for the lag, the ability's poor design and the ability queue we can't use? What does either have to do with learning the class exactly? In the dev response you mentioned, Lightning/TK was not addressed as one of the biggest sufferers. It was addressed by KBN in his original post, and the devs put in a generalized comment on how they are discussing the possible removal of pushback altogether. They did not comment on Lightning/TK at all, nor did they say the pushback removal was definitely going to happen. Meaning it might get fixed in the distant future as part of a rehaul to a game system, but they did not acknowledge the issue of the spec. Also while you did not offer a workaround, we need to work around this anyway, because it is broken. As you said it yourself, "I'd love to see it so I can cast mind crush during phases where all damage counts, but for now I'll wait just like I have been" Well, I don't want to wait anymore. I want it fixed, and they could definitely fix it for the class specifically, as they did to other classes, and at some point in the future they could do whatever with pushback overall, whenever they are done planning and discussing. Would it be too much to ask?

Your tone totally sound like as if I just screwed your mom. Let me tell you straight up: I did not. Or at least I don't know about it. Issue 1: As I said, I don't want the old AoE back. I said it, to make it obvious, the rest of the explanation will not be about how I'm crying to get it back, so people will not stop reading as soon as they see Lightning AoE. Not sure why you would feel the need to state and explain it again. The whole idea of pointing out broken mechanics is that we don't want to work around them. I don't want to anyway. They are not working as intended, so I want them fixed, instead of losing more DPS with workarounds like yours, than I already do due to other broken mechanics. Issue 2: Sure, it is just as simple, as hitting the button at the right time, but even if the server you play on is right in your neighborhood, the lag will never be 100% consistent. Especially not since we are playing Lag Wars, where weird stuff is happening every minute, and it is not uncommon to see non-Sin people teleport in pvp for example. The idea of the ability queue is to defeat lag, instead of trying to hit the buttons at the right moment. Also the ability has 4 ticks, so breaking it at 3 ticks is clearly not the intended way of using it, which means some kind of fix will be required at some point. Probably they don't plan on releasing it before 3.0, but it can't hurt to ask. Again you're coming up with workarounds, instead of solutions. Thank you, I would rather have the devs tell me I need to L2P, because I am supposed to be able to break that channel at the right moment, and I should not have the benefit of using the ability queue. Don't take it personally, but I consider their word having more weight than yours. Issue 3: They did say, they are looking into ability pushback overall, but they did not acknowledge the particular issue Lightning has. Considering how easily it could be fixed, I definitely think it would be worth putting into a DPS QoL question, if it were asked, because it might even make it into a 2.7.x patch. Also if they do anything about ability pushback overall, most likely it is not going to happen before 3.0, meaning for almost another 6 months. It may surprise you, but I would not like to "work around" their broken mechanics all the time until then. So overall no, I did not find your comment on mine particularly satisfying. I don't want workarounds, I want fixes. Also for the record, I did not suggest all these issues to be asked as separate questions, but rather as one big question about DPS QoL, where more and/or other issues could be implemented too. Using your way of thinking, I will say: all Sages need to L2P. If you don't like the animations of your abilities, just close your eyes while they are on screen. There is always a way to work around them, we really should not waste a question on an issue like this. /sarcasm

Didn't see any answer from anyone, so putting it back out there.

I would throw in a potential question addressing a number of (partially) newly added issues to the class. Its main focus is DPS QoL, so it could bring up a number of issues and ask 1 question afterwards, like "Do you plan on fixing these problems and/or improving the QoL of the class in other ways?" First and foremost: Lightning/TK AoE I don't think the old "feature" for aoe capability should be brought back, because I honestly think it was a bug, and it was never intended for the aoe and the single target abilities to proc Chain Lightning/TK Wave on a different internal cooldown. However the new system is pretty screwed. Granting the proc on ability activation works like a charm on both Lightning Strike/Disturbance and Thundering Blast/Turbulence, but it fails miserably on Storm/Quake. The ideal aoe roation would be something like: Hardcast CL/TK Wave > FS/Quake > Instant CL/TK Wave > FS/Quake > Hardcast CL/TK Wave > FS/Quake > and so on There are two fails in here: 1. Due to the travel time of the initial hardcast the following activation will grant a proc instantly, and it will be consumed by the previous cast. This could be easily fixed by FS/Quake granting the proc on dealing damage. 2. Once in the rotation if not doing it ideally, it is very easy for a FS/Quake activation to just miss the 10 second lockout of the proc. Which means the ability needs to be broken and recasted ASAP, to avoid wasting time on the lockout, which leads to an awkward feel of the aoe rotation. This could be easily fixed too by FS/Quake granting the proc on dealing damage Numerous players have seen this issue on the PTS and posted about this, and yet it ended up being ignored, and making it to the live servers anyway. Don't be afraid of long tooltips, we all can read. Second thing is: Madness/Balance and Force Lightning/TK Throw Even the devs admitted in the discussion of the Wrath/Presence of Mind stacks that in 2.7 the ideal rotaion will be breaking FL/TKT every single time after 3 ticks, and consume the Wrath/PoM stacks on whatever comes next in the rotation. Changing a spec in a way like this is straight up stupid, as it both goes against their original ability design and changes the playing field in the wrong direction. This change makes skill less valuable in sustained DPS compared to quality of connection and the quality of hardware. Also on top of this it encourages macroing. I know it is not allowed, but it is happening, and apparently Bioware doesn't really have the tools to do much against it, so at the very least they should not encourage it with mechanics like this. Changing FL/TKT to deal more damage with each tick as the channel goes ahead may help this issue, and could even possibly fix it. Also Madness/Balance could very much use a tool that allows them to set up hitting the button of which abilities should and should not break an ongoing channel, thus allowing them to use the ability queue to combat lag more effectively. And a tool that helps the spec tell their own and other Madness/Balance players dots apart. Third and last I came up with is: ability pushback for Lightning/TK SURPRISE Posted about this just enough, won't type everything all over again the 100th time, links below. Sorcerer terminology: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=732370 Sage terminology: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=732372 One could say it's too long, I say it's one question, and always can be worded to be shorter. Also I would definitely support an actual balance question over "The Sage as a Jedi", because asking about aesthetics sends the (false) message that "our class is near perfect, so don't you dare change anything on it before 3.0".

Instant Whirlwind was not overpowered for Sorcs/Sages. Fact. Earlier discussions about WW didn't really go anywhere, but I guess we can always retry, because even with the changes in 2.7 I think instant WW in Lightning could still work.

I'm pretty sure there have been threads about this, and smarter people than myself got to the conclusion it's the tooltip being wrong, and the ability is working as intended.

Hahahaahhahaahhahahahah Nuff said.

A question about the executes could be a good one. As the game stands right now Lightning/TK must not get an execute ability, it would make the spec grossly overpowered in pvp. However Madness/Balance is not performing where it should dps wise, so an execute talent could definitely help, or possibly even fix the issue completely. After taking a good look at the classes one cannot help, but notice, that all of them have some kind of execute with the exception of the Sorcerer/Sage. Every class not having an execute ability gets a talent in its dot tree in exchange. I believe as of right now the Sorc/Sage is paying the price of the double execute Sins/Shadows have in the shared tree, which is something no other class has (Sniper/Slinger don't count, as Lethality/DF practically don't have an execute ability). Obviously in exchange Sage/Sorc was given Focal stacks, but since admittedly the shared tree for both Inquisitor/Consular classes is performing under expectations, Sage/Sorc could possibly get the execute of their stealthy cousins. At the same time they could be given a reworked version of the Focal stacks to put sustained DPS of the shared tree for both classes to the place they were meant to be. To keep the amount of points usable in the tree unchanged the 2 dotheal talents could be merged, or both turned into 1 pointers.

The absolute worst case scenario for a fully stuffed Thundering Blast rotation as far as I can tell is the following, and I will do the numbers without alacrity for the sake of simplicity: **Fight going on** 0. Thundering Blast goes on cooldown, 9 seconds to go 1. Lightning Strike, to ensure both procs are up - 1,5 sec (Let's assume Crushing Darkness has already come off cooldown, but it was delayed because of TB) 2. Crushing Darkness, to put it back on cd asap - 2 secs 3. Force Lighnting with Barrage - 1,5 sec 4. Chain Lightning with Storm - 1,5 sec 5. Lightning Strike, because we have some time to kill - 1,5 sec 6. Affliction, to put it back up for the upcoming TB rotation - 1,5 sec 7. Thundering Blast, because its back up, the circle is closed **Fight keeps on going** The above rotation adds up for a grand total of 9,5 seconds, now add alacrity back in, and you're golden. And again, this is the worst case scenario, and we still had 1 GCD to kill with a purposeless Lightning Strike beside doing everything required and casting Crushing Darkness. While more procs do make the rotation more stuffed, I don't see the practical issue with implementing CD whenever it's off cd, other than the fact, it does indeed feel rather clunky due to its cast time, not even mentioning the lack of pushback protection. Regardless, it is still a DPS gain, and while it may sit around off cooldown slightly more because the 2.7 rotation will have more spots reserved for higher priority abilities, the difference will be minor. Basically if I understand correctly the only thing newly introduced to our effective rotation will be the need to cast LS straight after TB, to gain the procs asap, but consuming them is still not actually above CD in our priority list, except if casting CD would stop us from using them before the next TB. Under ideal circumstances (aka dummyfight) this latter exception should never happen though.

For the record I can't see how the number of procs is related to Cruhing Darkness in any way. Care to elaborate?

I may be blind and deaf, but I don't see him saying anything about that anywhere. If you mean he said they are considering removing pushback overall, on one hand that doesn't mean they realize TK/Lightning is screwed right now, and on the other let me quote myself from another thread: "if we are lucky, it might happen 2 months from now, but more likely it will only be in 3.0 (and that would be closer to 6 months). However in 2.7 they removed pushback for everything they recognized as rotational abilities, but thanks to their earlier mistakes in class design, which apparently they don't want to admit, Lightning will still be screwed over. Now not having anyone in their combat team seeing this issue is sad enough as it is, but also ignoring the countless posts on the PTS forums which they are actually reading and the class forums which I would assume they read is just a whole different level of awesome. I would laugh at their incompetence if only it weren't about my main toon and my one true love in this game. Also my point remains valid wether they take out pushback in 2.8 or 3.0 or not, because with these issues not corrected Lightning will be broken in 2.7, when we know they could have fixed it easily." If I missed another post somewhere, my apologies, I am well-known for being stupid.

For the record it is rather obvious that Force Barrier is not a defensive cooldown, but an escape. It's enough to look at how it interacts with other game mechanis: mobs just ignore you when you enter Barrier, and what really gives i t away is Electronet, as it does not affect DCDs, but it shuts Barrier down. The devs has clearly said it before, Sages/Sorcs will never get a defensive cooldown, so to be honest asking for one would be just straight up dumb. I very much support asking for Unnatural Preservation and possibly bubble on self to be taken off the GCD though. Do you know that for a fact?

Yes, they are, and if we are lucky, it might happen 2 months from now, but more likely it will only be in 3.0 (and that would be closer to 6 months). However in 2.7 they removed pushback for everything they recognized as rotational abilities, but thanks to their earlier mistakes in class design, which apparently they don't want to admit, Lightning will still be screwed over. Now not having anyone in their combat team seeing this issue is sad enough as it is, but also ignoring the countless posts on the PTS forums which they are actually reading and the class forums which I would assume they read is just a whole different level of awesome. I would laugh at their incompetence if only it weren't about my main toon and my one true love in this game. Also my point remains valid wether they take out pushback in 2.8 or 3.0 or not, because with these issues not corrected Lightning will be broken in 2.7, when we know they could have fixed it easily.

Rewrote it in Sage terminology and reposting in the class forums as the PTS will go down on Monday and apparently we won't get this fixed in 2.7. There is not a lot to say, other than I am very disappointed by the level of ignorance shown by the devs refusing to acknowledge this particular issue and other newly introduced bugs posted a number of times by others. I would suggest this to be a question to the devs, and I will keep bumping the topic until a fix will be announced or until I leave.

Reposting in the class forums as the PTS will go down on Monday and apparently we won't get this fixed in 2.7. There is not a lot to say, other than I am very disappointed by the level of ignorance shown by the devs refusing to acknowledge this particular issue and other newly introduced bugs posted a number of times by others. I would suggest this to be a question to the devs, and I will keep bumping the topic until a fix will be announced or until I leave.

Fair enough.

5char

Loving the level of conversation in here.