Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion

[Master-Nala]

NEW EDITS UP:

 

Changes in the PvE - Survivability section and the Feedback - Set bonuses section. Comments appreciated. Be kind to each other. Beat up on me and the questions, not each other. That kind of discussion is interesting, but not as helpful in refining the questions.

[Ycoga]

For the record, I wasn't beating on anybody. But I am frustrated that my previous question seem to have been brushed off / derailed into obscurity.

 

Edit: It's just that the 'survivability' word is cringe-worthy here. BW will be all over it. It'd be best to rephrase it in the context of NiM mechanics, i.e:

'Could you please fix 'X Operation mechanic' that hits Sages harder than other classes due to them not having off-GCD defences'?

 

E.g. if they made the damage a DOT, then balance sages would resist a lot of it.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Ycoga

[DarthSpekulatius]

NEW EDITS UP:

 

Changes in the PvE - Survivability section and the Feedback - Set bonuses section. Comments appreciated. Be kind to each other. Beat up on me and the questions, not each other. That kind of discussion is interesting, but not as helpful in refining the questions.

 

change the emphasis a bit away from Nightmare modes sages have the worst Passive Survivability out of all classes regardless of SM/HM/NIM they should have at least one Defensive Ability that doesn't reduce their Ability to do their intended Jobs.

(it's a bit diffrent when doing PVP in the below lv30 PVP bracket as a healer (bubble rocks there) but once you are 55 there's no comparison)

[Master-Nala]

For the record, I wasn't beating on anybody. But I am frustrated that my previous question seem to have been brushed off / derailed into obscurity.

 

I didn't mention any names, you feeling guilty!

 

Edit: It's just that the 'survivability' word is cringe-worthy here. BW will be all over it. It'd be best to rephrase it in the context of NiM mechanics.

 

Oh I agree. I think that's the question we're most likely to get an unsatisfactory answer. But, again, it is a consistent issue for folks. The most consistent issue. Which is why I've tried to tie it as much as possible to the specific issue mentioned, the Operations bosses. In general, I don't think the case can be made any longer that Sages have a specific lack of defense in PvE (sans operations) or PvP. So I'm trying to tie it to something they will be more likely to work with us on.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Master-Nala

[Ycoga]

Hmm, yes you're quite right.

 

BTW there's a typo: 'Are there any plans to improve the class's current survival tools? For example, by perhaps by providing a means with which to move our tools (Force Armor, Force Mend, etc.) off the GCD when cast on yourself?'

[MusicRider]

The issue is that, in NiM Ops, there are numerous examples of random damage (one or more members are targetted to take a hit) or AOE damage (whole raid gets hit). In many cases, those attacks deal damage that is mitigated by armor. That means that on those hits/multiple hits in many AOE cases, sages/sorcs take more damage from each hit. That means they require more healer attention (or have to use more GCDs to heal themselves). The disparity in damage taken can be quite large, even before accounting for other classes using DCDs. While not a complete solution, if they started designing fights such that armor did not impact damage taken, we'd at least start on an even footing with other classes. Regardless, as it exists now, it plays into survivability: we are starting at a disadvantage even before considering DCDs.

 

I see and I agree. I have even stated on a previous post of mine that sages with light armour require more healing, but this healing should not stress the main healers as they should be able to use their dads in a way that is not holding back their main function, whether that is healer or dps. As long as PVE is regarded they do have these tools with bubble, self-heal and the other two heals at any spec. However, all of them are on gcd and hence they will always be a drawback to their main roles. IMHO that is exactly where the problem lies, not so much in the light armour but on the fact that all dads of sages are on gcd. Of course not much can be done about benevolence/deliverance but self-heal and bubble can be rectified.

[MusicRider]

Oh I agree. I think that's the question we're most likely to get an unsatisfactory answer. But, again, it is a consistent issue for folks. The most consistent issue. Which is why I've tried to tie it as much as possible to the specific issue mentioned, the Operations bosses. In general, I don't think the case can be made any longer that Sages have a specific lack of defense in PvE (sans operations) or PvP. So I'm trying to tie it to something they will be more likely to work with us on.

 

Just thinking out loud here... Is it maybe because the question is not entirely a matter of survivability? Is it maybe because sages do have the tools needed for survivability but these tools are on gcd so when used sages are forced to under function on their primary roles? Is it then the question that sages have always to make the sacrifice between survivability or fully fulfilling their primary roles, with both elements being measured equally when deciding a raid group?

[MusicRider]

Regarding the set bonuses.

 

Force Master: the 4-piece force master is not useful. Hence a lot of people prefer the shadows dps one (stalker), particular with the 2.7 changes. In fact even the 2pc bonus is debatable whether it is good other than full balance. IMHO I would prefer 2pc-gives some alacrity bonus, 4pc-same as stalker.

 

Force Mystic: 2pc is not too bad although the pve one is much better. 4pc is an absolute necessity and in fact it is not even enough. About the 2pc I don't have any suggestions, certainly having the same as the 2pc pve would be one nice option. The 4pc though should complete eliminate the health spent, or if you really want to leave the self-harming effect then this should be a tiny fraction of the total health, and then self-healed within 1-2 gcds.

 

Force Stalker: Shadows dps bonus set.... nothing to say here, other than it shouldn't be better than the master set for sages under any circumstances. The fact that it is, tells a lot about how poor is the master.

[MarsherMeow]

Came across another experienced and geared sage healer who was struggling with the force management in an OPS today. At the same time I was just lololol'ing away at a much higher HPS and with no energy issues on scoundrel. This basically happens in every operation I'm in and when it doesnt it's usually because the sage is so conservative with the heals and even more behind in terms of HPS that it never becomes an issue. I'm personally never PvE healing on sage anymore because I can do the same thing better and smoother on scoundrel.

 

Hence, I would, again, add that to the seer issues in a more specific manner.

 

In 16 man raids the Sage / Sorc is unrivaled in its AoE healing capabilities really, but I guess I could see why the other healers would be better in 8 man.

[judgeender]

With respect to the "Survivability" question. It seems like many people have not read the numerous posts discussing the issue in this thread and many others. I'm not going to repeat all the detail from prior posts (some of which were very extensive), but going to hit the high points. My point of view comes from DPS specced sorcs/sages (though most applies equally to healing specs) in progression/NiM/ World/Server first Operations. The problem is that Sage/Sorc survivability/ability to mitigate damage while doing their job is a factor in whether to take a Sage/Sorc DPS or go with another class that can do the same damage while taking less damage and bringing more raid utility (particularly in 8-man Operations). That is a problem that Bioware needs to address. It is not our job to propose only one solution. We need to present the problem and as many options on possible solutions. It is their job to choose and balance a fix.

 

1) Sages/Sorcs have light armor. Pretty much every Operation Boss has one or more mechanics that either (i) randomly target a raid member for an attack or (ii) do AOE damage to the entire raid. Many of those attacks are mitigated by armor. Since Sorcs/Sages have light armor (and other than shadows/assassins) every other class has medium or heavy armor. On those numerous attacks, Sages/Sorcs take more damage before accounting for any DCDs. Changing the mechanics to hit everyone equally would put Sages/Sorcs on an even footing before you consider DCDs, but it is only part of the problem.

 

2) Although the issues exist in all Operation content, it becomes most noticeable in NiM content where, among other things, (i) damage taken is much larger and/or numerous and(ii) enrage timers are extremely tight so every second a DPS isn't performing their job increases the chances of a wipe to enrage. When going for world/server firsts, every increased risk of a wipe is a bad thing.

 

3) Sorcs/Sages are the only class/spec that lacks a true DCD. Force Barrier requires the Sage/Sorc to stop doing their job. It can also cause problems/is unusable as a DCD in some instances (for example if used on an orb on Brontes, the orb will simply target someone else which can cause problems given how they work. Putting aside how much it heals for, Force Mend requires a GCD to use, meaning the Sorc/Sage is not doing their job, dpsing. Static Barrier requires a GDC (meaning the sage/sorc is not dpsing), requires force to use (potentially creating force issues - albeit lower risk than before 2.7), and may even be unusable if another sorc/sage had previously used a bubble on you. No other class/spec has to stop doing their job to use their purported DCDs.

 

4) Heal to Full is not an option. Again, healing takes time away from DPSing which is a problem with enrage timers. It also drains force, creating further dps problems (more a concern for madness than lightning) and with pushback can take a very long time to heal. Importantly, numerous of the AOE damage to the raid phases occur during final burn phases where again, stopping to heal may simply result in enrage.

 

5) Line of Sight does not work in Operations (with the "exception" of Titan VI where everyone uses it.

 

6) Sages/Sorcs do not do more damage than other classes. Nor do they offer great utility (healing is not very viable for the reasons stated above) to the raid.

 

So if Sages/Sorcs take more damage, do not do more damage than others (and in fact have to lower their damage to use any purported DCDs) and bring little other utility, why bring one over other classes that can do the same (or better) damage, take less damage and bring utility (such as increased damage for the whole raid or reduced damage taken for the whole raid? Sage/Sorc lack of survivability (or increased damage taken) is not currently balanced by anything else for progression PvE content (the issues exist in lower content, they just don't matter as much).

 

Edit: I am still concerned about trying to make this question cover both PvE and PvP. I think our best chance at an answer is really focusing this on PvE.

Edited April 17, 2014 by judgeender

[Darth_Dreselus]

@Ycoga

 

I think our meanings are missing each other. Chemic came here stating that he got one shot by a subterroth. We were sceptical so we asked for a log, which in turned has proven that this was indeed not the case. Gyronamics then claimed that it is impossible for a non tank to survive a second hit without a cd of sorts. Johnbgood then presented evidence that it is possible for a DPS to survive a second hit without def cds, but with a bubble (arguably a def cd). Reviewing the linked video it became apparent that under the same conditions (full HP, bubble [preferably from a healer] and force Shelter) a Sage would also survive, granted with less HP remaining (possibly sub 1k).

 

You then asked if there was really a problem to which I responded with basically 'no' because a DPS getting hit by 2 explosions is simply bad play (unless ofc it is planned and they use some cd to deal with it, for instance GS roll, Saber Reflect, Resilience.).

 

I'm not sure why you thought I was sarcastic. I am not denying the DTPS problems Sages have, but subterroths are a bad example.

 

In fact, if you have a Sage heals, you should not even use bubble as not only does a DPS bubble have longer lockout, it also absorbs less, further exacerbating the issues Sage DPS face.

 

@Nala

 

I am pretty happy with the questions, maybe not so much with separating the issues as PvE and PvP. I know we are meant to ask that way but I do not think it would be too bad if we left those labels out as they may narrow the answers (for better or worse).

 

I guess you could work in the issue of bubbles with a Sage healer I have just talked about which essentially negates one of the Sages survivability tools. I don't really have a solution for it, separate lockouts per player casting would be rather OP.

 

The 4pc though should complete eliminate the health spent.

 

This has been suggested ever since the 1.2 changes to Valiance. It eliminates the problem in PvP and does not break PvE (nobody will take it over the PvE set bonuses). But it has been ignored ever since.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[Master-Nala]

@Nala

 

I am pretty happy with the questions, maybe not so much with separating the issues as PvE and PvP. I know we are meant to ask that way but I do not think it would be too bad if we left those labels out as they may narrow the answers (for better or worse).

 

I guess you could work in the issue of bubbles with a Sage healer I have just talked about which essentially negates one of the Sages survivability tools. I don't really have a solution for it, separate lockouts per player casting would be rather OP.

 

Edit: I am still concerned about trying to make this question cover both PvE and PvP. I think our best chance at an answer is really focusing this on PvE.

 

The conundrum I'm facing. I'm trying to 'slightly' get a PvP bit into the first question and a bit of PvE into the second. I agree I am not as successful with that as I'd like. But my overarching goal has been to listen to the community and seek consensus wherever possible without imputing my own bias. That's wickedly difficult and I hope at leas the majority of people are happy with the results.

[Darth_Dreselus]

The conundrum I'm facing. I'm trying to 'slightly' get a PvP bit into the first question and a bit of PvE into the second. I agree I am not as successful with that as I'd like. But my overarching goal has been to listen to the community and seek consensus wherever possible without imputing my own bias. That's wickedly difficult and I hope at leas the majority of people are happy with the results.

 

Then possibly make them focus on either side but don't actually label them as such. Allow for a bit of reading between the lines. It's just both Survivability and Seer issues are in no way exclusive to a single playstyle. May leave them labelled just for us but then take those out for the actual submission.

 

Scoundrel questions were also talking about both PvE and PvP and the answers they got were pretty good.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[ShadowMudkip]

The TK/balance hybrid is really aoe heavy, mobile, force efficient, and has quite a bit of cc in it. I think the hybrid is the way to go. I personally like it.

[MidichIorian]

Edit: I am still concerned about trying to make this question cover both PvE and PvP. I think our best chance at an answer is really focusing this on PvE.

With the latest intended, or unintended, buff to damage, seemingly foremost white damage through what people refer to as a "fix", it can easily be applied to PvP too. You don't have to look far to come across a "14K maul" thread and whenever an astronomical hit like that takes place there's usually (always?) a sorc or sage on the other end. Maul isnt the only ability that currently strikes for ridiculous numbers in warzones and I've yet to see a developer adress it so at this point I have to assume that it is infact intended.

 

That's not to say that sorc/sage damage hasnt also been somewhat buffed. i can't remember Force in balance hitting for around 9,5K pre-2.7 and while it's rare it's atleast possible now. That said, other classes have abilties that more consistently hit for an additional 33 % on the squishiest class.

 

BUT, and I've stated this before, I am not a fan of going down the DCD path. I believe that most players, or atleast new players with no prior class experience in this game, who roll a sage or sorc do so under the assumption that it will play like a light armor archetype, fairly squishy but with great output. As we all know, the output isnt exactly living up to those expectations. Hence, I'd rather see a buff to output. The problem with that is of course that people will argue that it would be too OP for warzones. My argument is that the only time a sorc/sage should be able to cause problems for people on other classes, who have some clue of what they're doing, is when there are too many sorcs/sages on the same team, to the point that it becomes impossible to lock everyone down. That's it and that's an accumulative problem similar to how four maras on each team used to ruin warzones. They can't balance around scenarios like that. If anything they should try to balance teams (which won't happen because of queue times).

 

Got a bit side tracked there so back to the output buff. We're clearly behind in PvE but PvP is foremost about burst, or atleast when it matters. So why is it so hard to simply buff sustained? A sage or sorc won't burn anyone down much quicker just because force lightning/TkT or the dots hit 15-20 % % harder (the most natural thing for tele would be to buff Dist or give it more crit consistency). As long as they are staying away from buffing the burst abilties (FiB, FW, TB) too much it's not going to make much of a difference in PvP. Yeah it might save the sage/sorc a GCD in the long run but it's not lke we're going to ruin someone's day in 2 GCD'es (the 2 GCD tele sages are a myth btw, for all you people on other classes who take pride in ruining sage/sorc threads).

Sage/sorc should IMO be able to, with ease and consistency, pull off 4K in 180's, meaning that there will be potential for a good extra 300 in perfect parses. That type of DPS would correlate with light armor and how we're forced to blow GCD'es on keeping ourselves alive,

 

On a related note, I wonder how much longer the "crit fix" they talked about 6 months ago will take. It hit specs such as balance the hardest. Also, they stated in the mando/merc thread that they're aiming to get rid of the hybrid tax. I'm just going to assume that this will affect us too and buff, IN RELATION TO OTHER CLASSES (BW is really bad at this, every time they give us something they're also changing some other mechanic in the game that indirectly nerfs us) , our output too.

[judgeender]

I agree that this translates over to PvP. My concern with too much focus on the PvP side is that (i) Force Barrier was just buffed (a buff that helps PvP much more than PvE, though still having the problem of not doing anything for 8 seconds) and (ii) last round they sort of gave answers on PvP side.

 

I do agree that if we don't get DCDs, we need something else, like more damage, but I think which direction this goes is up to Bioware. I think they really need to either improve our DCDs, Improve our DPS to compensate or provide significant and valuable utility. But which one they choose is sort of up to them and depends on their design theory for the class which, as much as we can speculate what it is, has not been made clear.

[MidichIorian]

I agree that this translates over to PvP. My concern with too much focus on the PvP side is that (i) Force Barrier was just buffed (a buff that helps PvP much more than PvE, though still having the problem of not doing anything for 8 seconds) and (ii) last round they sort of gave answers on PvP side.

BW should completely ignore the Barrier complaints (from other classes, as a sage I think it's total garbage) because they are exaggerated at best. It's a long CD and you can be stunned during the duration of the following buff so there's a direct counter. Even left unattended you won't see a sorc or sage burn anyone down from full to zero in 5 seconds. Not to mention that you'll have it a maximum of two times per Arena round. Electronet, which I'd take over barrier any day can be used four times during the same time frame and the Juggs/Guardians new little tool blows Barrier out of the water. But for the sake of argument we'll just call it equal, meaning that we're still behind at everything els. It has reached the point in PvP where people expect to kill a sorc or sage every time and whenever it doesnt happen they'll instantly run to the forums to complain. That mentality is a big part of the problem. Edited April 17, 2014 by MidichIorian

[MusicRider]

The conundrum I'm facing. I'm trying to 'slightly' get a PvP bit into the first question and a bit of PvE into the second. I agree I am not as successful with that as I'd like. But my overarching goal has been to listen to the community and seek consensus wherever possible without imputing my own bias. That's wickedly difficult and I hope at leas the majority of people are happy with the results.

 

Risky business is to bring pvp in the first question given the recent buffs and better to focus solely on pve IMHO. Good luck.

[AlrikFassbauer]

the Force cost all by itself will keep Balance Sages from brainlessly spamming it like Smugglers can.

 

This is a thing I never quite understood ... well, my own DScoundrel is just level 15, so I can only relate to from what I read in the forums ... But why the BEEEP would the designers / developers make ONE class so unbelievably easy to play and another one so difficult ?

 

[Conspiracy Theory]Is there perhaps a single dev who takes pride from the fact that the Sage is so easy to play and he has mastered it ? [/Conspiracy Theory]

 

I just wonder ... What sense is there in making one class hard to play and one class loleasy to play ? Why apply double standards in the first place ?

 

In 16 man raids the Sage / Sorc is unrivaled in its AoE healing capabilities really, but I guess I could see why the other healers would be better in 8 man.

 

Only if folks huddle together.

 

If the fight ios spread too much, then you rather have to use "personal healing" (I did an almost first full run through both Oricon OPs yesterday, with a PUG ( ! ) , NOT with a competent group or guild, mind you ! - fpor *several*of us this was the very first run ! - and it was not funny. The fights are spread far too much, especially in the very last fight of the Palace. Especiuallky when you have to fight & tank sebveral enemies at the same tiome. And there was no LOS protecting Sages, either. The few I saw there did very well, though. Most Healers were Scoundrels, if I recall this correctly.

Edited April 18, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[AlrikFassbauer]

It has reached the point in PvP where people expect to kill a sorc or sage every time and whenever it doesnt happen they'll instantly run to the forums to complain. That mentality is a big part of the problem.

 

Full ack !

 

This mentality is part of the problem - and it is in my opinion a testament to my "easy wins" thesis ("everyone rather wants an easy win than a fair battle").

 

It's become a bad habit.

[Ycoga]

Risky business is to bring pvp in the first question given the recent buffs and better to focus solely on pve IMHO. Good luck.

 

Yeah, agreed - Nala you should strictly make the first a PVE question, the second a PVP one, and the last a general one.

[Aerilas]

It has reached the point in PvP where people expect to kill a sorc or sage every time and whenever it doesnt happen they'll instantly run to the forums to complain. That mentality is a big part of the problem.

 

Wow man this is a beautiful quote

Edited April 19, 2014 by Aerilas

[Capote]

First, thank you for the awesome job you did here OP. Is there any estimate for when these questions will be made and when we'll receive answers?

 

Now, about the questions, of course you won't please everyone, but don't you think that the third question is a little less relevant if compared to some problems we are facing as a class nowadays? I am refering to things like the lack of DPS representatives on top parses (which tends to indicate that the class is not doing as good as other rangeds), for instance (just my opinion, clearly). Point is I hardly think this question will give any info for us, it's something that has been asked over and over before, seems like a wasted one to me.

 

Moreover, could you edit the second question (about PvP seer) to add the force management problem (it is in the comments before the question, but not on it)? As someone who plays rated arenas a lot (as both hybrid and full heal) that's a huge problem we face atm.

 

Again, thank you for doing this for all of us.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Capote

[MusicRider]

PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS AS IT CONTAINS A QUESTION THAT IMHO IS IMPORTANT AND WE OUGHT TO ASK ALSO AS SAGES/SORCS

 

It just occurred to me that there is one very big issue regarding sages/sorcs that is not being asked at all. This of a hybrid healer/dps that fulfils a dps role in the queue of solo ranked arenas. IMHO we must ask that this issue must be resolved as it is an unfair exploitation of the queue system that totally screws game balance. And this question could very easily fit within Q2 regarding the healing spec issues in pvp. A solution is a pretty easy one-liner. After default role is selected per skill points spent add one more line in the code such as:

 

if (myself.advanced_class == sage OR sorc) AND (healing trance OR innervation is in myself.list_of_abilities):

myself.queue_role = healer

 

Damn easy and damn resolves the issue without putting additional stress to queue times.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Wow man this is a beautiful quote

 

I agree. Who's going to use it as a signature ?

Edited April 19, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer