[Petition] Devs, Do NOT Put DP/DF NiM On The PTS

[LordKantner]

Your guild has never been anything resembling competitive in World HM/NiM rankings anyways, why does this matter to you?

 

This!

[Heidy]

This (especially the OPS) forum is used for hugh number of wrong attention. This thread is a perfect example. Edited January 31, 2014 by Heidy

[Transmet]

This (especially the OPS) forum is used for hugh number of wrong attention. This post is a perfect example.

 

a brilliant contribution right there

Edited January 31, 2014 by Transmet

[odawgg]

The QQ is strong, but it could be stronger!

 

Lmao!

[Helmholtzz]

I dont want a buggy NiM ops where I can bang my head on the wall for weeks before BW comes around and fixes the bug. So yes I want it on the PTS.

If you care that much go do it on PTS. No one is stopping you. My guild is not in the run for world ranking but we do like challenging BUG FREE fights.

 

So yes please put NiM on PTS so that people can figure out the bugs. And I believe people who have the patience to work on the NiM content on the PTS deserves to get world first or second.

[ALoveShot]

lol, if anyone is really to lazy to download pts and try the new content, why are they even worried about world firsts?

[DieGhostDie]

Wow, settle down guys. Who knew that this thread would be filled with a lot of "QQ'ing"...

 

Anyway, /signed KBN.

 

PTS was a mistake.

Edited January 31, 2014 by DieGhostDie

[fire-breath]

It's actually fairly clear that Bioware doesn't play its own NiM content. Which is understandable since it's quite far from casual content.

 

Well, tbh they could test it themselves if they tune down all incoming damage. I assume its not tough to program a 75% reduction to HP and all attacks (plz mind I'm no programmer ). In that case any bioware employee should be able to test the new mechanics and find all bugs themselves.

 

This ofc won't mean the opses will be to easy or to hard. I dont think anyone would mind when the bossfights are heavely overtuned like DG NiM was. Since NiM-progression is all about bragging, the guilds who are able to clear it before incoming nerves receives higher braggingrights (some sigs are a perfect example of it). Also bioware HAS the tools to tune boss HP, spikedamage and DTPS correctly

 

- Tuning the correct HP vs enragetimer on the bosses and adds

Bioware has also a wealth of information coming from the 8/16 man HM threads. They contain many parses where the current DPS output is being displayed.

It shouldnt be rocketscience to figure out if a fight is 'mathmaticly possible'.

 

- Tuning the correct incoming spikedamage

Spikedamage can not be to high till the extend of getting RNG wipes (yes I know biowares rep on that one is shady).

Bioware has all the info about the armourlevel of all current tanks. Atm Drivingthrust on HM is allready close to being a problem (its doable if the healers are paying attention). I really hope they won't up the current 30k to 40k on shadowtanks.

Anyways ..... point being ..... bioware knows how much damage will be received by tanks when they don't shield/defend it and should tune it correctly.

 

- Tuning the correct dtps

I havent seen any HPS rankings (with very good reason since healing is more about healing correctly than the high numbers). Bioware knows however about the existance of torparse.net. When they hop over there they can see what the current possible healing output is.

[mastirkal]

Wow, settle down guys. Who knew that this thread would be filled with a lot of "QQ'ing"...

 

Anyway, /signed KBN.

 

PTS was a mistake.

 

I'm still trying to figure out in which direction the Q-Qing is stronger. I'm still in opposition to no pts, but even I don't see either side as strictly right or wrong on this topic.

[znihilist]

I'm still trying to figure out in which direction the Q-Qing is stronger. I'm still in opposition to no pts, but even I don't see either side as strictly right or wrong on this topic.

 

Both sides have valid points. However, the issue that there is one side with an emotional and a vested interest on this and it is impacting the way they are presenting their arguments on why they agree/disagree with the petition.

 

Anyway! Yes we do prefer that NiM content is unknown till it is on live and I don't think anyone disagree on that specific point. The issue is bugs and how it can be safely eliminated without impacting the previous point and hence the argument.

However, there is one solution that I think both sides accept, which is that content is still released on the PTS but in a very diluted form -perhaps even missing a mechanic or tuned in a way that it change priority depending on HP or other criteria of the boss - which allows testing for mechanics bugs without actually figuring out the "correct" way to do it.

[mastirkal]

Both sides have valid points. However, the issue that there is one side with an emotional and a vested interest on this and it is impacting the way they are presenting their arguments on why they agree/disagree with the petition.

 

Anyway! Yes we do prefer that NiM content is unknown till it is on live and I don't think anyone disagree on that specific point. The issue is bugs and how it can be safely eliminated without impacting the previous point and hence the argument.

However, there is one solution that I think both sides accept, which is that content is still released on the PTS but in a very diluted form -perhaps even missing a mechanic or tuned in a way that it change priority depending on HP or other criteria of the boss - which allows testing for mechanics bugs without actually figuring out the "correct" way to do it.

 

Not only that, more than just the progression orientation can test it without problem doing that.

[Whojoo]

I have been on this post for an hour now. Re-writing many times as I try to approach this as neutral as possible. And my view changed a bit after every write-up.

 

If The devs don't change their current course, then they need PTS. Else they release broken content which eventually leads to a dead game (no one wants to pay for broken content).

If they start intensive internal testing (trying to break their own content as much as possible), then they can ignore PTS.

It all depends on how much the devs test their content.

 

It will take some time untill I reach NiM DF/DP so I won't notice the release bugs but if the content has to many bugs, then it shouldn't be released untill it is playable, period. If this is the case, then I prefere it to be on PTS so at least someone tests it before it is released.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Whojoo

[Railbourne]

I'm with KBN. It'll be a while before NiM comes out, totaling over six months likely from 2.4. Guilds had this content dead in 2 days or less if I recall after it went live. The subsequent months have been 4-5th groups of alts getting geared up and generally boring PvE play. 99% of guilds went to Dulfy for strats instead of embarking on the game with fresh eyes and sense of adventure.

 

For the naysayers I'm reading on this thread, stop using the word 'hardcore'. There is nothing hardcore about the guilds that are high level in this game. This isn't WoW TBC going for world first Illidan kills (which took months btw). Us (Aurum Gaming), Hatred, Death and Taxes, Severity et al I'm pretty sure are running once or twice a week at most for a few hours. There's nothing hardcore about that. In fact, we run less than most casual guilds. The argument of being truly hardcore and getting on PTS and stratting is plain dumb.

 

I, for one, would like to experience the growing pains of an un-player-tested operation, nerfs, buffs, bugs, all of it aside from the internal QA. It's not like the major bugs like Dread Council weren't very quickly hotfixed anyway. That's more 'hardcore' than logging in to a cumbersome PTS and killing the buzz of the new content before it even goes live.

 

+1 KBN

 

Couldn't agree more. +1 KBN

[BladeBoques]

We ended up transferring our whole raid team to PTS for the Dread content, but really preferred not to. After we were so mistakenly hyped up on what we thought was a world 19th on NIM 8M Dash'Roode (several months after anyone kept track LOL) we really thought our only chance at being a progression contender was to run it all ceaselessly on the PTS. While the PTS is nice for debugging, and 100Mill repair funds, I agree with KeyboardNinja. PTS really should not be the grounds that host the race to world ranks. However, if the mechanics and damage are the same, that is where the real race will happen, or at the very least that is where the race will be decided. The next move is simply to log in faster than the next guild to get the live clears they have been doing for weeks. Especially with the character transfer unlimited lockouts will yield unlimited practice for people who would otherwise be stopped by live game limits.

 

I'd much rather have broken bosses than see the NIM content in any form on the PTS. I mean come on, half the fun of Soa was seeing if the boss spawned for you in phase 3, or if the floor was even there for phase 2. I say fun in hindsight heh, it was not that great then, but it certainly created the experiences we all remember. I hope the devs release what they create, and let us fight over the challenge from there, regardless of the unexpected added challenges that come with that.

 

The Dread Council couldn't be killed because of the Calphayus bug after being released, many fights stay on PTS forever and are still bugged when they go live. It is better to let us all play the game, and get things patched as they prove they must be since our proactive PTS attempts have often not served their full purpose.

[LordKantner]

I'm with KBN. It'll be a while before NiM comes out, totaling over six months likely from 2.4. Guilds had this content dead in 2 days or less if I recall after it went live. The subsequent months have been 4-5th groups of alts getting geared up and generally boring PvE play. 99% of guilds went to Dulfy for strats instead of embarking on the game with fresh eyes and sense of adventure.

 

For the naysayers I'm reading on this thread, stop using the word 'hardcore'. There is nothing hardcore about the guilds that are high level in this game. This isn't WoW TBC going for world first Illidan kills (which took months btw). Us (Aurum Gaming), Hatred, Death and Taxes, Severity et al I'm pretty sure are running once or twice a week at most for a few hours. There's nothing hardcore about that. In fact, we run less than most casual guilds. The argument of being truly hardcore and getting on PTS and stratting is plain dumb.

 

I, for one, would like to experience the growing pains of an un-player-tested operation, nerfs, buffs, bugs, all of it aside from the internal QA. It's not like the major bugs like Dread Council weren't very quickly hotfixed anyway. That's more 'hardcore' than logging in to a cumbersome PTS and killing the buzz of the new content before it even goes live.

 

+1 KBN

 

I disagree with your definition of hardcore. According to you, amount of time raiding = hardcore. A guild that spends 7 days a week trying to get through story mode operations would fit into your definition.

 

If guilds can down HM DF/DP, NiM TFB SnV, and several kills of hateful in the span of a few hours like my guild; then what would more time accomplish?

 

The moment new content arrives, the guilds you speak of are probably going to go into raiding almost every day for progression. My point is that you cannot have a hardcore guild in farming season by your definition, when honestly there really isn't much more you can do than the content listed above that would challenge a top end guild.

 

By all means if you'd like to argue for less content, but a flawed system that allows top end guilds to actually do something new vs. no system at all and have potentially more issues, it seems like a no brainer to me.

[Afieri]

This discussion is moot. The fact is, the deva should have a proper bug testing procedure that does not include the public. Games like swtor and wow will have lots of bugs and I am sure that 90% of these get squashed during development, and the other 10% get through and just lie in wait for someone to come across them in game, but this is actually quite unacceptable really, you're paying money for these operations, why should you pay the money to have them developed and then have to test each and every one to ensure that when the progression race actually counts, that it is flawless? Am I alone with the desire to have things actually done properly once, and only released once? If you look at the whole progression race thing, you will always have those that have a timezone advantage and that will always be an issue for the race itself, but those that are serious enough will make the time and more power to them, so the race is fairly equal for those that deem it necessary.

 

Essentially you can have a fairly equal race if you only release the content once, after you have actually tested it in the style of past days where you didn't release patches to fix your game because you did a decent job in making work in the first place. Swtor is so time driven as opposed to quality driven that we have bugs that have persisted since launch (Esseles is just a ctd party) because the devs are being forced to work on new content as opposed to fixing old content.

 

Long story short, PTS shouldn't even exist, closed testing is great for new story lines and other non competitive aspects of the game, because if you don't want to do it, you don't have to and it doesn't affect the progression race at all. New content should be bug tested by the developers because let's face it, that is actually someone's job, someone is getting paid to actually test the content, not paying, getting paid. Do your jobs better devs and this discussion disappears

[mastirkal]

This discussion is moot. The fact is, the deva should have a proper bug testing procedure that does not include the public. Games like swtor and wow will have lots of bugs and I am sure that 90% of these get squashed during development, and the other 10% get through and just lie in wait for someone to come across them in game, but this is actually quite unacceptable really, you're paying money for these operations, why should you pay the money to have them developed and then have to test each and every one to ensure that when the progression race actually counts, that it is flawless? Am I alone with the desire to have things actually done properly once, and only released once? If you look at the whole progression race thing, you will always have those that have a timezone advantage and that will always be an issue for the race itself, but those that are serious enough will make the time and more power to them, so the race is fairly equal for those that deem it necessary.

 

Essentially you can have a fairly equal race if you only release the content once, after you have actually tested it in the style of past days where you didn't release patches to fix your game because you did a decent job in making work in the first place. Swtor is so time driven as opposed to quality driven that we have bugs that have persisted since launch (Esseles is just a ctd party) because the devs are being forced to work on new content as opposed to fixing old content.

 

Long story short, PTS shouldn't even exist, closed testing is great for new story lines and other non competitive aspects of the game, because if you don't want to do it, you don't have to and it doesn't affect the progression race at all. New content should be bug tested by the developers because let's face it, that is actually someone's job, someone is getting paid to actually test the content, not paying, getting paid. Do your jobs better devs and this discussion disappears

 

Game shouldn't be easy enough that a few hours is the difference between world first and world third. Unfortunately it is and we have to deal with it.

Edited February 6, 2014 by mastirkal

[DieGhostDie]

Game shouldn't be easy enough that a few hours is the difference between world first and world third. Unfortunately it is and we have to deal with it.

 

I like to add something to this comment.

 

In my honest opinion, yes, this game is easy enough for many great guilds to clear content within a stroke of a few days or in about a week for Nightmare mode content. It is sad that BW can't wisen up to make Nightmare modes even more of a Nightmare. I wished the concept could have been stretched more than they have intended.

 

Look at Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn's raid progression for example. It took weeks for good guilds to clear the first four turns and it took two months for one guild (Order of the Blue Gartr) to clear Turn 5 . What's even better is that the company itself (Square-Enix) acknowledged their World First legitimate kill of Turn 5.

 

TL;DR: You better make one hell of a Nightmare for Dread Fortress, BioWare and please acknowledge community achievements for once.

[Krewel]

Only by adding artificial barriers like attunements and specific gear requirements can the most difficult content last long enough to have some proper longevity. Enabling people immediate access to all content from day one is a bad idea in any MMO, imo. However, attunements and gear requirements also bakcfire in the long run (imagine a recruit in your guild going through the attunement and gearing phase every time you get a new player).

[namesaretough]

Only by adding artificial barriers like attunements and specific gear requirements can the most difficult content last long enough to have some proper longevity. Enabling people immediate access to all content from day one is a bad idea in any MMO, imo. However, attunements and gear requirements also bakcfire in the long run (imagine a recruit in your guild going through the attunement and gearing phase every time you get a new player).

 

You don't necessarily need attunements or specific gear (like resist gear) to gate content, but instead fights that are more mechanically challenging and punishing to mistakes that take time to figure out before you down them. Fights like EC kephess were a step in this direction, but they've backed off since then and moved to fights that are only 1 or 2 mechanics that need to be executed over and over, and even those mechanics are usually repeated from previous instances. When fights are that simple they don't take weeks of working out a strategy to down, just a couple pulls to see the (often exceedingly obvious) mechanic.

 

Game shouldn't be easy enough that a few hours is the difference between world first and world third. Unfortunately it is and we have to deal with it.

Well said.

Edited February 6, 2014 by namesaretough

[namesaretough]

I'd much rather have broken bosses than see the NIM content in any form on the PTS. I mean come on, half the fun of Soa was seeing if the boss spawned for you in phase 3, or if the floor was even there for phase 2. I say fun in hindsight heh, it was not that great then, but it certainly created the experiences we all remember. I hope the devs release what they create, and let us fight over the challenge from there, regardless of the unexpected added challenges that come with that.

 

A totally broken endgame at launch was one of the reasons the raiding scene in this game died so quickly. When half your raid night was figuring out workarounds to the instance leader bug that didn't let anyone zone in, or hoping the pylons didn't become unclickable, or hoping that one of the platforms wouldn't disappear on your way down on Soa, people quit. If nightmare raids went live now like they did at launch, the few remaining guilds who do them would disappear. Those bugs are exactly why we need PTS testing.

Edited February 6, 2014 by namesaretough

[Krewel]

You don't necessarily need attunements or specific gear (like resist gear) to gate content, but instead fights that are more mechanically challenging and punishing to mistakes that take time to figure out before you down them. Fights like EC kephess were a step in this direction, but they've backed off since then and moved to fights that are only 1 or 2 mechanics that need to be executed over and over, and even those mechanics are usually repeated from previous instances. When fights are that simple they don't take weeks of working out a strategy to down, just a couple pulls to see the (often exceedingly obvious) mechanic.

 

Yeah, I'd really like to know what Bioware devs are doing when designing NiM. It takes them so long to produce this "new difficulty" they could design a whole new Ops in the meantime. In WoW there are now four levels of difficulty and they always come out simultaneously and the difference between Normal and Heroic is not simply in one new mechanic or quantitative increase of hp and damage ... Why in god's name did it take so many months (was it 6 months?) to release EC NiM only to realize the first boss, for instance, has a "mechanic" which involves players using a medpack at the beginning.

 

So far they really haven't justified this awful delay between HM and NiM. Six months of waiting for EC NiM to use a medpack on the first boss ... I mean, ***

[Treeba]

Overly paranoid people are paranoid. Edited February 6, 2014 by Treeba

[Beslley]

So far they really haven't justified this awful delay between HM and NiM. Six months of waiting for EC NiM to use a medpack on the first boss ... I mean, ***

 

This is admittedly speculation on my part, but I can't imagine they have more than a handful of people working on content right now. AFAIK they haven't really hired that many people back (if at all) after the Great Purge where they fired most of their staff.

 

Still, it is discouraging that it takes so long to come out with what usually amounts to 1 extra boss mechanic, plus an hp/damage boost to existing bosses.

 

A totally broken endgame at launch was one of the reasons the raiding scene in this game died so quickly. When half your raid night was figuring out workarounds to the instance leader bug that didn't let anyone zone in, or hoping the pylons didn't become unclickable, or hoping that one of the platforms wouldn't disappear on your way down on Soa, people quit. If nightmare raids went live now like they did at launch, the few remaining guilds who do them would disappear. Those bugs are exactly why we need PTS testing.

 

This. I'll take PTS testing over lost raiders any day. Anecdote on my part, but I saw way more friends leave over the QUALITY (or lack of it) in the ops than I saw leave over NiM ops being up on the PTS.

 

Players I know who left over quality of content, or release schedule of content: Nearly everyone I raided with at launch, with the exception of maybe 1 person

Players I know who left over PTS: Zero

 

So there's that.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Beslley

[NoFishing]

Why in god's name did it take so many months (was it 6 months?) to release EC NiM only to realize the first boss, for instance, has a "mechanic" which involves players using a medpack at the beginning.

 

Pretty sure it was 7 months, but level 50 TfB was also released during that time, so there's the plausible answer to the question of what they were working on.

 

But waiting 6 months for NiM DF, 8 for NiM DP, and at least 10 (more likely 12) months for a brand new op is definitely a new low.