[Petition] Devs, Do NOT Put DP/DF NiM On The PTS

[slafko]

Ill sign a petition to get new ops instead of rehashed nm df and dp. really really tired of nm.

This right here. New ops > old ops with bigger numbers.

[Ardarell_Solo]

There is nothing unfair about the process now that PTS character copy is universal, so I don't accept the premise your complaint relies on, thus it is invalid. Without that premise, your post boils down to this paraphrase - "I want to be able to compete but I don't want to put in the work required to compete."

 

p.s. WoW puts heroic raids on PTR. This is not an aberrant process.

 

tl;dr boo hoo

 

I was undecided about the OP's suggestion, but this answer and the following posts and this person's and his guild's history of uncooperative, condescending and contentious communication and behaviour in the context of this game make me

 

1. *shudder*

2. *sign* the OP

[Leafy_Bug]

This thread is so offtopic now, I don't think humanity invented a tool to measure how far the rabbit whole you guys have gone. *facepalm*

[slafko]

Considering how dumb the initial post was, I'd say we haven't gone far enough.

[FridgeLM]

Really? Not one valid premise in any of what was said?

 

Yes. Really. Not one logic-based reason that this situation is even a problem needing a solution.

 

There's a difference in not agreeing with something and saying something isn't valid because of x,y,z reason (which you don't do).

 

Except I did do it. KBN claims current situation is unfair. It isn't because all players have access to PTS. His argument has no other logic-based reasoning, just vagaries about how he feels the game "should" be played ('learning' fights on live being somehow more desirable than on PTS). Since his entire petition therefore hinges on the idea that testing on PTS is unfair, and testing on PTS is not unfair, there is no proof that a problem exists and his 'fix' for the nonexistent problem would almost certainly make the game worse.

 

Had someone make an analogy to me that I felt was apt vis a vis his lack of desire to test ops on the pts and how it relates to rankings: "one could say "I don't want to augment my raid gear because it's expensive" and you have just as bad an argument."

 

I gave a list of valid reasons why not putting ALL of the NiM content on the PTR would be a good idea

No you didn't. All you gave was a potential solution to a problem that has not been successfully proven to exist - one that still has the potential to make the game worse because it involves less testing and therefore higher chances of bugs and bad tuning.

 

Had we used your stupid idea, Raptus, for example, never would've been tested on PTS, and he would've been hitting Kell Dragon tanks for 18-24k twice back to back within 2 seconds on release. That would've gone over so well.

 

and your neckbearded solipsistic response was basically 'didn't read it because I don't agree with the premise' yet somehow, based on you not reading it, mine and other arguments are invalid. Cool story. Did you take out a student loan for this education?

 

Quoted for very obvious hostility. If your only argument is to say, "you're stupid," then I'm done with you. You've degenerated into a slobbering rage.

 

I was undecided about the OP's suggestion, but this answer and the following posts and this person's and his guild's history of uncooperative, condescending and contentious communication and behaviour in the context of this game make me

 

1. *shudder*

2. *sign* the OP

 

I'm going to be contentious when someone proposes making the game worse for literally not one good reason and for self-centered motivations.

Edited January 29, 2014 by FridgeLM

[Transmet]

Yes. Really. Not one logic-based reason that this situation is even a problem needing a solution.

 

 

 

Except I did do it. KBN claims current situation is unfair. It isn't because all players have access to PTS. His argument has no other logic-based reasoning, just vagaries about how he feels the game "should" be played ('learning' fights on live being somehow more desirable than on PTS). Since his entire petition therefore hinges on the idea that testing on PTS is unfair, and testing on PTS is not unfair, there is no proof that a problem exists and his 'fix' for the nonexistent problem would almost certainly make the game worse.

 

Had someone make an analogy to me that I felt was apt vis a vis his lack of desire to test ops on the pts and how it relates to rankings: "one could say "I don't want to augment my raid gear because it's expensive" and you have just as bad an argument."

 

 

No you didn't. All you gave was a potential solution to a problem that has not been successfully proven to exist - one that still has the potential to make the game worse because it involves less testing and therefore higher chances of bugs and bad tuning.

 

Had we used your stupid idea, Raptus, for example, never would've been tested on PTS, and he would've been hitting Kell Dragon tanks for 18-24k twice back to back within 2 seconds on release. That would've gone over so well.

 

 

 

Quoted for very obvious hostility. If your only argument is to say, "you're stupid," then I'm done with you. You've degenerated into a slobbering rage.

 

 

 

I'm going to be contentious when someone proposes making the game worse for literally not one good reason and for self-centered motivations.

 

YOU might not see it as a problem, but again, we're delving into your 'tag, not it' complex. You missed everything said about tuning and bugs and I can't be bothered to three-peat it. This has been really fun. You should have people over for coffee inside your little bubble that has nya nya-nya nya-nya nya on it instead of a welcome mat. I didn't say you were stupid, I said you were solipsistic....and you are, but I've seen you on several occasions in this thread already try and reduce what people are saying into inaccurate quotes probably to help you understand things better or at least make them work out in your favor. I really don't know at this point.

 

As long as you're okay when I'm contentious when I see a hypocritical reductionist like you exists in these forums that dismisses counter-arguments made 'just because', I feel like we can agree to disagree. KBN has never posted anything about PvE progression with numbers or kills and I doubt very much the PTR has anything to do with that. Nor does anyone except you (one hopes) thinks that's going to give KBN 'the edge' he needs. Give me a break, man. At this point you have to be trolling. The arguments made here are about content longevity and your brilliant flag ship argument is 'what if Raptus two shots tanks' because lack of PTR. Slow clap

 

The only one 'slobbering' here is you apparently at the prospect of world firsts in a game that isn't hardcore in its culture at all. Here's an idea you might agree with: rename your guild to HARDCORE Death and Taxes!!!

Edited January 29, 2014 by Transmet

[Ardarell_Solo]

I'm going to be contentious when someone proposes making the game worse for literally not one good reason and for self-centered motivations.

 

Yes in that case and as a general habit - as anyone who regularly reads in this forum can easily see.

 

Plus you're funny: In your world it's only you who decides if the poster's reason is good or not and if the motivations are self centered or not of if the games is being made worse.

That's being presumptuous in the first place, as this is exactly what's supposed to be discussed here in a civilized manner, i.e. by respecting other people's take on the matter in the course of an exchange of opinions. The OP has given quite a balanced view of the topic and has been asking for opinions, inviting to discuss. Whereas you're just making assertions.

And then your judgement of other people's opinions justifys every kind of contentious behaviour, as you've just explained. You're going full circle and you're not even realizing it. It's that exact pattern in too many posts I've seen from you.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Ardarell_Solo

[FridgeLM]

YOU might not see it as a problem, but again, we're delving into your 'tag, not it' complex.

Don't see it as a problem because nobody's proven it is one.

 

You missed everything said about tuning and bugs and I can't be bothered to three-peat it.

Your position is that tuning and bugs will be off regardless of testing. While it's true that bugs will always exist, it's far more believable that more testing results in less bugs than more testing results in nothing - especially when we have examples from the last go-round of testing of fixed bugs and fixed tuning (Draxus, Raptus, etc.).

 

I've seen you on several occasions in this thread already try and reduce what people are saying into inaccurate quotes probably to help you understand things better or at least make them work out in your favor. I really don't know at this point.

 

I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm going for when I illustrate the absurdity of someone's point by rephrasing it and keeping the same logic. Then again, I've evidence of faulty reading comprehension on your part already, so I'm not surprised.

 

And yes, you did not literally call me stupid, but you're not fooling anybody. "Did you take out a student loan for this education?"

 

As long as you're okay when I'm contentious when I see a hypocritical reductionist like you exists in these forums that dismisses counter-arguments made 'just because',

You never presented a counter-argument. You continually restate a potential solution because reasons without establishing why it's needed. Your "counter-argument" consists of reasons why your potential solution to a nonexistent problem won't be so bad. You're skipping a step - establish why we need a solution at all.

 

KBN has never posted anything about PvE progression with numbers or kills and I doubt very much the PTR has anything to do with that.

 

Here's the crux of the matter: putting the Nightmare Modes on the PTS destroys progression on the live servers. It sets up a situation where some guilds come in with a substantial head start on at least the first few bosses, which makes the progression race highly unbalanced. Competitive guilds are strongly pushed to get on the PTS (even if they don't want to!) just to combat this advantage on the part of their peers.

 

...However, if we want to remain competitive with our fellow guilds, we are essentially forced into a situation where we need to find the time, bite the bullet, and clear content that we would rather wait patiently to arrive.

 

In short, we don't want a situation where "real" top-tier progression is all done on the PTS, with everyone logging in on patch day to farm the instance once it goes live.

 

...All I know is that having final-form progression content on the PTS is very bad for the PvE community in this game. I really don't want to be forced into progression raiding on the PTS just to remain competitive with other guilds, but unfortunately there's nothing I can do about this situation as long as Bioware continues to open nightmare content up for public testing prior to release.

 

Emphasis added. It literally starts in the second paragraph of the OP. 100% of his argument is about how it effects the progression race and how it's not "fair." 0% of it is about content longevity. Maybe you should've read it - it's not a good argument but at least you'd know what you're talking about.

 

The arguments made here are about content longevity and your brilliant flag ship argument is 'what if Raptus two shots tanks' because lack of PTR. Slow clap

 

Again, you're the only one mentioning longevity (and not making a case for how PTS is bad for that, or how longevity is more desirable than properly tuned and less buggy content).

 

Anyway, it sounds like you didn't test the first version of Raptus on PTS if you still don't get it (even though I told you why). I used the example to illustrate how your solution would make the game worse - were that version of Raptus put on live because it hadn't been tested (and the tests seen by devs) then Raptus would have had an unacceptably low clear rate for a hard mode because he was hitting like a truck.

 

I guess slow clapping is all you can do when I show why your intended solution will just make the game worse. I will accept your accolades.

Edited January 29, 2014 by FridgeLM

[Beslley]

Don't see it as a problem because nobody's proven it is one.

 

 

Your position is that tuning and bugs will be off regardless of testing. While it's true that bugs will always exist, it's far more believable that more testing results in less bugs than more testing results in nothing - especially when we have examples from the last go-round of testing of fixed bugs and fixed tuning (Draxus, Raptus, etc.).

 

 

 

I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm going for when I illustrate the absurdity of someone's point by rephrasing it and keeping the same logic. Then again, I've evidence of faulty reading comprehension on your part already, so I'm not surprised.

 

And yes, you did not literally call me stupid, but you're not fooling anybody. "Did you take out a student loan for this education?"

 

 

You never presented a counter-argument. You continually restate a potential solution because reasons without establishing why it's needed. Your "counter-argument" consists of reasons why your potential solution to a nonexistent problem won't be so bad. You're skipping a step - establish why we need a solution at all.

 

 

 

 

 

Emphasis added. It literally starts in the second paragraph of the OP. 100% of his argument is about how it effects the progression race and how it's not "fair." 0% of it is about content longevity. Maybe you should've read it - it's not a good argument but at least you'd know what you're talking about.

 

 

 

Again, you're the only one mentioning longevity (and not making a case for how PTS is bad for that, or how longevity is more desirable than properly tuned and less buggy content).

 

Anyway, it sounds like you didn't test the first version of Raptus on PTS if you still don't get it (even though I told you why). I used the example to illustrate how your solution would make the game worse - were that version of Raptus put on live because it hadn't been tested (and the tests seen by devs) then Raptus would have had an unacceptably low clear rate for a hard mode because he was hitting like a truck.

 

I guess slow clapping is all you can do when I show why your intended solution will just make the game worse. I will accept your accolades.

 

 

/thread

Gotta say though, I'm lolling hard at how this derailed into a "let's dogpile on DnT" thread

 

Thanks to the few who have kept it (mostly) on topic. We need to let BW know how much the ability to bugtest and give feed back is appreciated

Edited January 29, 2014 by Beslley

[Ardarell_Solo]

/thread

Gotta say though, I'm lolling hard at how this derailed into a "let's dogpile on DnT" thread

 

You're turning things around: The "Hate" was brought into this thread by DnT, OP is topical only. Derailment starts at Fridge LM's "TLDR Boohoo"-post. If you introduce insults on a personal level into a discussion that's been fact oriented until that point, it's you who are the "haters".

 

At this point I've seen too many threads in this forum, where people of your guild have done exactly that and it always worsened those threads, as it became increasingly difficult / near impossible to extract facts from those threads. I understand that the majority of forum users if fed up with that kind of antisocial behaviour and will defend themselves from the way you are marauding through here.

 

Fact is: Any thread in this forum that gets a "contribution" by DnT members turns useless sooner or later. I'd rather not have you throw interjections of that sort into other members' valuable information that's shared here. And I've learned that a lot of users feel the same way.

[znihilist]

/thread

Gotta say though, I'm lolling hard at how this derailed into a "let's dogpile on DnT" thread

 

Thanks to the few who have kept it (mostly) on topic. We need to let BW know how much the ability to bugtest and give feed back is appreciated

How about you contribute something meaningful to the discussion instead of "/thread" "^ this" ?

[Beslley]

You're turning things around: The "Hate" was brought into this thread by DnT, OP is topical only. Derailment starts at Fridge LM's "TLDR Boohoo"-post. If you introduce insults on a personal level into a discussion that's been fact oriented until that point, it's you who are the "haters".

 

At this point I've seen too many threads in this forum, where people of your guild have done exactly that and it always worsened those threads, as it became increasingly difficult / near impossible to extract facts from those threads. I understand that the majority of forum users if fed up with that kind of antisocial behaviour and will defend themselves from the way you are marauding through here.

 

Fact is: Any thread in this forum that gets a "contribution" by DnT members turns useless sooner or later. I'd rather not have you throw interjections of that sort into other members' valuable information that's shared here. And I've learned that a lot of users feel the same way.

 

If you go back we are saying (in a blunt way) that taking NiM testing off the PTS is an awful idea. When people tried to justify their want for their Nerd Honor Code to be satisfied, we pointed out (again, bluntly) that removing things from the PTS would hurt the game more than it would help it. We've demonstrated multiple times in this thread that the only argument for removing NiM content from the PTS is "I don't like it that I have to play the PTS to compete". That's like an athlete complaining that they have to do the preliminary trials to get into the Olympics. Additionally, we have the added issue that testing ensures that bugs are found and fixed, or at the very least, called attention to before they go live, so it becomes "I don't like putting in the extra effort even though PTS kills mean nothing and additionally I don't want anything to be fixed because my Nerd Honor Code demands it". It's utterly selfish and utterly infuriating.

 

Sometimes you have to lay the smackdown to get things done. We're dismissive because it's so utterly obvious to us that Bioware's track record for internal testing is awful, so we are going to fight tooth and nail to keep this **** on the PTS so SOMEONE can find bugs and give feedback. We love this game too much to let someone's Nerd Honor Code take precedence over a game that works #sorrynotsorry

 

And Rhom's implant thread would like to have a word with you. Last I checked that one was on topic and on point, but keep those blinders on if it helps you sleep at night.

 

How about you contribute something meaningful to the discussion instead of "/thread" "^ this" ?

 

Perhaps you need to have a look at the previous pages

 

Edited for additional thoughts

Edited January 29, 2014 by Beslley

[Ardarell_Solo]

is an awful idea.

 

their Nerd Honor Code

 

We're dismissive because it's so utterly obvious to us

 

We love this game too much to let someone's Nerd Honor Code take precedence over a game that works

 

but keep those blinders on if it helps you sleep at night.

 

You probably don't want to / cannot, but I think everyone else can make the connection of these words to what I pointed out before without further comments.

 

And IF you really, as you say, would like to make a contribution to an improved game, which, as an MMO above all relies on the community playing it, you might want to start cooperating with said community instead of insulting the people comprising it and endlessly re-asserting that self-appointed judge of everything point of view of yours.

[znihilist]

Perhaps you need to have a look at the previous pages

Gotta say though, I'm lolling hard at how this derailed into a "let's dogpile on DnT" thread

 

Yet It does not excuse the martyrdom syndrome you are flagging around and unilaterally deciding a discussion is over by "/threading" as if that adds anything to the discussion.

Edited January 29, 2014 by znihilist

[Beslley]

Yet It does not excuse the martyrdom syndrome you are flagging around and unilaterally deciding a discussion is over by "/threading" as if that adds anything to the discussion.

 

You implied that I hadn't contributed anything to the conversation, so I demonstrated that I had. I /threaded because I honestly feel that both sides have at this point started repeating themselves so I think it's time we wrapped this thread up and all went home.

 

You probably don't want to / cannot, but I think everyone else can make the connection of these words to what I pointed out before without further comments.

 

And IF you really, as you say, would like to make a contribution to an improved game, which, as an MMO above all relies on the community playing it, you might want to start cooperating with said community instead of insulting the people comprising it and endlessly re-asserting that self-appointed judge of everything point of view of yours.

 

And I feel that it is fine to be dismissive at times. If you go through my post history there are plenty of times where I have been helpful and civil, but again #sorrynotsorry for telling it like it is when people are up in a thread implying we somehow are these awful terrible people for -GASP- wanting to bugtest on the PTR (See also: the "elitist" jabs, the flat-out /sign on the petition when the realization that we were on the thread hit, etc). And if you have a problem with the use of Nerd Honor Code when that is LITERALLY what it is, then I'm afraid I can't help you. This isn't kindergarten, I'm not going to coddle someone when I think their idea is damaging and dangerous to the PvE game's health. I am going to tell you that you are wrong and I am not going to mince words when I say why.

 

I guess the hours upon hours on the PTS and live testing, experimenting with classes, and killing bosses while filing bug reports and feedback on the forums isn't enough. I have to give out hugs and say that everyone's opinions are equal, too. :|

Edited January 29, 2014 by Beslley

[znihilist]

You implied that I hadn't contributed anything to the conversation, so I demonstrated that I had. I /threaded because I honestly feel that both sides have at this point started repeating themselves so I think it's time we wrapped this thread up and all went home.

 

No I quoted 1 post and told you it doesn't add anything to the discussion. Your previous contribution does not excuse that post, nor that it should.

 

I feel

Feeling is not mutual from all parties, a reasonable person will excuse himself from the discussion if he deems that it is not moving anymore. A reasonable person does not jump into martyrdom because he feels like it. Do you get me now ?

Edited January 29, 2014 by znihilist

[Beslley]

No I quoted 1 post and told you it doesn't add anything to the discussion. Your previous contribution does not excuse that post, nor that it should.

 

 

Feeling is not mutual from all parties, a reasonable person will excuse himself from the discussion if he deems that it is not moving anymore. A reasonable person does not jump into martyrdom because he feels like it. Do you get me now ?

 

I suppose "feel" was a bad word. I should have said that it was a demonstrable fact that both sides are repeating themselves while quoting the posts that are all saying the same thing in different prose.

 

Anyone is free to still post, my /thread is not going to stop them

[Ardarell_Solo]

If you go through my post history there are plenty of times where I have been helpful and civil

And that buys you the right to behave the abhorrent way you do on other occasions? How highly practical. I always thought that civil behaviour was a matter of heartfelt principle and not situative, but I obviously failed the DnT explains everone else how the world REALLY works class.

 

I'm afraid I can't help you.

Don't remember asking ;-)

 

I guess the hours upon hours on the PTS and live testing, experimenting with classes, and killing bosses while filing bug reports and feedback on the forums isn't enough.

Again: That doesn't buy you an antisocial behaviour and getting on the nerves of everyone else bonus card.

 

I have to give out hugs and say that everyone's opinions are equal, too. :|

1. You're a million miles from that.

2. Everyones opinions are to be heard with equal respect at least, that's been established some 2.000 years ago somewhere in the Southern part of Europe and is deemed common knowledge since then in most parts of the world, at least the good ones ;-)

3. Don't hug people unless they invited you to do so, many find that awkward.

4. Any invites yet?

5. Ok, I've become somewhat mean, too, time to refrain from this, before my Karma suffers even more...

 

People will, as always, draw their own conclusion from what's been posted by whom in this thread.

[Transmet]

No, I think I'm done here. Fridge's circular logic disguised as the intellectual high ground and quote cherry-picking is almost too much to bear. I and others have brought up several reasons as to why there is a problem in the first place, BUT NOPE NOTHING TO SEE HERE. The OP stated it clearly even, but 'tag, not it' is the order of the day. DnT brow beat this thread into submission and started with ad hominem early on. All the /threading in the world doesn't negate the ardent lack of comprehension. This thread was /thread many posts back when Fridge skated over logic like a princess at the ice-capades. BUT GUYS....BUGS N STUFF....KBN NOOB N THINGS....NOT HARDCORE!!! DnT HARDCORE!!!

 

A lot of games including WoW have challenged the PTR in the aforementioned ways with great success. The only boo-hooing here is from you, Fridge. The only leg you have to stand on is bug testing and that's an extremely thin point of view to start with because there will never be a content patch without them based on over ten years of persistent MMO releases. The PTR didn't save Council bugs (and immediately hotfixed), CZ mine issues, etc. The internal testing team sorts out what it can, but the real reason is practice and everyone knows it. These bugs are typically independent of the PTR when the code is transferred over. It's just an opportunity to engorge an epeen in a game where no one really cares about firsts, especially if the content fizzles out soon after.

 

As far as the rest of it goes, Fridge, I refer to my lesson in Crayon for you.....actually read it...if you aren't too HARDCORE. I'm out.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Transmet

[FridgeLM]

I and others have brought up several reasons as to why there is a problem in the first place,

Still waiting on a single one that isn't so easily dismissible by pointing out that everyone can get on the PTS.

The OP stated it clearly even,

And it was wrecked in one short post. Fairness does not constitute a leg to stand on.

A lot of games including WoW have challenged the PTR in the aforementioned ways with great success

This one's used the PTS quite well, we have concrete examples.

The only leg you have to stand on is bug testing and that's an extremely thin point of view to start with because there will never be a content patch without them based on over ten years of persistent MMO releases.

To do something you hate, I will use what passes for your logic. "The only leg you have to stand on is preventing murder and that's an extremely thin point of view to start with because there will never be a society without it based on all of human history."

 

By the way, the onus is on your side to prove something needs to be changed. That's how these things work.

The PTR didn't save Council bugs (and immediately hotfixed), CZ mine issues, etc.

And it did save Draxus bugs and Raptus tuning in addition to Calphayus bugs. But you love to ignore evidence.

http://www.twitch.tv/fridge_sa/c/2896291 skip to 2:15:00 to see what our PTS testing saved tanks from having to deal with on Live.

The internal testing team sorts out what it can, but the real reason is practice and everyone knows it.

That's a pretty conspiratorial and tiresomely cynical view, one which has literally no chance of being proven or disproven. I can, however, guarantee you that that's not the position of the dev team. They don't care about us getting practice.

no one really cares about firsts

This is quite a thread for you to be posting in if you feel that way given the reasoning in the OP for his petition. Reasoning that I quoted and highlighted for you.

[KeyboardNinja]

Still waiting on a single one that isn't so easily dismissible by pointing out that everyone can get on the PTS.

 

The following was explained in the OP, but perhaps not well. Let's try a more sequential approach…

 

Nightmare Modes are pushed to the PTS. This sets up a situation where everyone who wants to seriously compete needs to get on the PTS. Ok, so they get on the PTS. Raids happen, loot is won, bosses are downed, etc. No world firsts are claimed, because honestly, it's the PTS. If the content is up for long enough (read: more than two weeks), it will be completely cleared on the PTS by nearly a dozen guilds.

 

In every case except NiM TfB, the PTS instances have been essentially copy/pasted to live, with no changes worth speaking of (fixing Raptus's double hit was a bug fix; the hit is still there, it's just one tick instead of two). So the instances hit live, with a dozen guilds that already have them on farm. The problem with this is it turns the progression "race" into a race to login, because all any of these guilds need to do is get their A team online in order to walk through the instance and claim their world ranking.

 

This is what I mean by destruction of the progression race. It has nothing to do with "fairness", which is a word which you will not find at all in the OP (Kantner used it first). If world firsts and world ranking really don't matter at all (as Noire suggests), ok then, but let's see it for what it is.

 

And for the record, I'm not sure that "tl;dr: boo hoo" counts as "wrecking the OP in one short post". If I squint a lot to sort past your trolling, elitist attitude, you do have a valid viewpoint buried deep inside your posts. Bug testing is important, and the PTS is fair in the sense that everyone can get on. It still eliminates live progression. Hopefully the above sums up my condensed response. If you don't agree, fine, but enough with the grandstanding.

Edited January 29, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Beslley]

I'm still unsure how it eliminates live progression when WoW does literally the same thing with just a slightly more limited timeframe. Their races to world firsts seem to have remained intact just fine.

 

Dominion has more wisdom for us:

PTS is not a race its 2 weeks of testing buggy content and the major bugs get fixed before live...most guilds dont even experience all the fights or full clear because it conflicts with their regular raid

Praise Thor.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Beslley

[Leylea]

I like the way 'progression' is going on in SW:ToR.

 

PTS is up, i can calmly download it, copy my character and arrange some evenings with my guildmates, where everyone has plenty of time. We are raiding as long everyone is motivated and we see some progression. If we are running out of motivation or time, were going to have a break or we meet the next date.

There is not a big pressure of time and we have a lot of fun exploring the new operation. If i am not able to participate the first evenings or the first week it doesnt really matter and i feel very stressless to sign off. So we are testing and practicing as much as we like till we feel save, that we understood the mechanics. Everything is pretty chilling and we have a lot of fun.

 

Then we get the date when the patch is going live. Again, we sit together and discuss who is able to be online on that date or not. Everyone can decide wheather he is able or willing to get some free time of the 'progression' race. NiM progression is mostly over (in terms of first kills) after the first or second IDs, so i do not have to spend that much time. Either i cleared the content in that time and are one of the top10 guilds or not and the race is over.

 

And yes, its a race. And the onces who start first have the better chances to be the first once to cross the finishing line. Its cool for me (because i dont have that much time), that i dont have to raid very day, every evening over period of weeks/months and still have the chance to participate in the race and have good chances to win by a good preparation (on the PTS and a good time arrangement with my guildmates).

U can like it or not, but it is just a matter of taste and not of arguments.

 

PTS testing isnt unfair in any cases und has only advantages in terms of the 'quality' the content is going released on live servers.

[FridgeLM]

Nightmare Modes are pushed to the PTS. This sets up a situation where everyone who wants to seriously compete needs to get on the PTS. Ok, so they get on the PTS. Raids happen, loot is won, bosses are downed, etc. No world firsts are claimed, because honestly, it's the PTS.

Just stopping here to note that this is universally done when the content cycle is such that any guild that can be called progression-oriented has everything Live on farm. There should be nothing stopping them from doing this on the PTS.

If the content is up for long enough (read: more than two weeks), it will be completely cleared on the PTS by nearly a dozen guilds.

This last one was up for just under two weeks, and we didn't get everything on farm. IIRC the operation nightmare patch wasn't up for very long either, and very few guilds tested S&V. Pretty sure nobody got that instance on farm on PTS.

In every case except NiM TfB, the PTS instances have been essentially copy/pasted to live, with no changes worth speaking of (fixing Raptus's double hit was a bug fix; the hit is still there, it's just one tick instead of two).

This is not true. If you actually zoned into these instances on PTS when they were first put up, you'd have run into a great deal more bugs - Draxus add behavior was not at all working as intended, Calphayus had a whole slew of bugs (such as past/future phases not resetting between attempts, resetting in the last phase unintentionally, pure seed resetting, etc), and the aforementioned Raptus issue, which I contend was a scaling issue but it doesn't matter. Point is, PTS is important to get a working, properly tuned instance.

So the instances hit live, with a dozen guilds that already have them on farm.

This has never happened, even in this last Hard Mode content cycle. Only one guild that I am aware of (Seven Stuck) claimed to have a non-bugged kill of Council on the pts. Hardly a dozen.

The problem with this is it turns the progression "race" into a race to login, because all any of these guilds need to do is get their A team online in order to walk through the instance and claim their world ranking.

Except as stated above, this never happened. It didn't happen last NIM, it didn't even happen in Dread HMs. You're complaining about a problem that does not, at all, exist.

 

As an aside, the progression race is almost universally - in every mmo with pve - a race to log in.

It has nothing to do with "fairness", which is a word which you will not find at all in the OP (Kantner used it first).

I'm going to show you how a reasonable person might infer that you're concerned with fairness in one of the very first lines of your OP. Emphasis will be added.

It sets up a situation where some guilds come in with a substantial head start on at least the first few bosses, which makes the progression race highly unbalanced

If you say you aren't concerned with fairness, fine, but you could've fooled me with all the repeated mentions of feeling forced to go on the PTS to remain competitive.

And for the record, I'm not sure that "tl;dr: boo hoo" counts as "wrecking the OP in one short post".

I find it interesting you seize on the last line of my first post in the thread and ignore the reasoning that came before it.

Edited January 29, 2014 by FridgeLM

[KeyboardNinja]

This is not true. If you actually zoned into these instances on PTS when they were first put up, you'd have run into a great deal more bugs - Draxus add behavior was not at all working as intended, Calphayus had a whole slew of bugs (such as past/future phases not resetting between attempts, resetting in the last phase unintentionally, pure seed resetting, etc), and the aforementioned Raptus issue, which I contend was a scaling issue but it doesn't matter. Point is, PTS is important to get a working, properly tuned instance.

 

I was referring more to mechanic and tuning changes between PTS and live. TfB is the only instance I can think of where the tuning was changed. As for Raptus, 5 seconds of log perusal turns up this (at the time, in less than BiS gear):

 

19:14:51.238 Khenali's Underworld Medicine heals Tam for 5722, causing 2574 threat.

19:14:51.761 Tam gains 6 Force.

19:14:51.762 Dread Master Raptus's Slash Attack hits Tam for 6959 energy damage, causing 6959 threat.

19:14:51.763 Dread Master Raptus's Slash Attack hits Tam for 6959 energy damage, causing 6959 threat.

19:14:51.763 Dread Master Raptus's Slash Attack glances Tam for 3297 energy damage, causing 3297 threat.

19:14:51.937 Tam's Telekinetic Throw critically hits Dread Master Raptus for 1989* kinetic damage, causing 3979 threat!

19:14:51.938 Tam loses Harnessed Shadows.

19:14:51.938 Tam loses Unshakable.

 

6959 * 3 = 20877 damage. This is a tripled attack, which is to say that if I hadn't shielded the third component and if I had died, it would have shown up in my death message as a 20.9k death blow. Now, this is different from the PTS in two ways. First, the attack is split into three components, which makes it both more assassin-friendly and less prone to RNG. Second, and more importantly, the attack is no longer followed by a second identical attack immediately thereafter. The former is a slight rebalance, but the damage is essentially identical (pre-2.5, I would have been hit for much closer to 25k), while the latter is a bug fix. The latter is the important one, since back-to-back 25k hits are what turns a really annoying RNG-mitigation mechanic into a 100%-to-dead mechanic, which is what you saw on the PTS. In other words, the scaling hasn't been changed at all from what you saw, it's just that the boss no longer doubles his big hits.

 

Except as stated above, this never happened. It didn't happen last NIM, it didn't even happen in Dread HMs. You're complaining about a problem that does not, at all, exist.

 

Almost every guild that logged into the PTS to test NiM TfB cleared it. The only reason no one made significant progression on PTS NiM S&V was that almost no one logged in to test NiM S&V on the PTS. Most guilds were still busy farming TfB, since the gap between the instances wasn't very long and that gap was enhanced by the initial severe difficulty of the Dread Guard. If the PTS were all about altruistic beta testing and bug finding as you make it out to be, then S&V would have received the same test coverage that TfB did. It didn't.

 

The HMs on the PTS were essentially cleared out before they hit live. The Dread Masters were the only boss (iirc) that wasn't cleared, and that's only because the third phase was impossibly bugged. It's worth noting that I've seen Seven Stuck's PTS clear video, and while they did "kill" the boss on the PTS, it only happened because the boss magically died NiM TfB-style. To the best of my knowledge, Seven Stuck didn't really progress any further than any of the other guilds that pushed the HMs on the 2.4 PTS.

 

In any case, I'm not as concerned about HMs on the PTS. I mean, it's hard mode. Most guilds logged in and got 4/5 in both instances within the first few hours of the servers being live. Brontes took longer, and the Dread Masters were still bugged, but otherwise the new HMs aren't even as hard as the old NiMs, despite the fact that we are a full two tiers above the old NiMs.

 

As an aside, the progression race is almost universally - in every mmo with pve - a race to log in.

 

That doesn't mean it should be. There are other reasons why this is the case in SWTOR, of course, but I would rather we work towards a better progression scene, not a worse one.

 

I find it interesting you seize on the last line of my first post in the thread and ignore the reasoning that came before it.

 

Are you really surprised by that?

 

Your "reasoning" in that post was dismissive and terse. There wasn't much to seize upon. Of the three people who have replied directly to that post, everyone has seized on the final line.

Edited January 29, 2014 by KeyboardNinja