KBN's Stress-Free Guide to the Tank Rotation

[Afieri]

@Malaka_Blue, I'm talking about the Bulwark stacks, not the protection stacks.

 

@THoK-Zeus You just stated that you rather do a 3k threat move and hope for an unfavorable(not so much, but still) procs than do a GCD for a 3.4k threat... in an age of competing DPS that can roll out 30k damage in 3-4 GCDs and our epic accuracy with increasing number, unwillingness to incorporate pull(most threat in GCD) in the rotation of fights that you actually can not afford to taunt... I can not take you seriously. Rant all you want, I think is time I start ignoring you.

 

 

The fact is that discharge pops a bit more threat on the table than thrash, which is fine, because maths doesn't actually lie, people just misinterpret it, and the logs look fairly straightforward, and very easy to replicate (assuming that Torparse and Parsec are doing their maths correctly). So that's pretty much sorted as you will never really know whether or not Torparse and Parsec are doing threat maths amazingly accurately because not many folk have the patience to sift through raw combat logs. Moral of the story is Discharge > Thrash if you assume non-crits and look at a single GCD only, and that's where the discussion really begins. Discharge only does good things for you with regards to threat for that GCD. After that GCD, you have to do something else, and Discharge has not set you up for any potential high threat abilities. Thrash on the other hand has a ~48% chance to finish the CD on Shock (which helps you build your stacks faster) as well as increasing the amount of threat that Shock does. Now, 48% is not exactly favourable, you wouldn't want to bet millions of dollars on that kind of a chance, but you have to look at the alternative, which is Discharge, and Discharge applies the accuracy debuff (which lasts 15 seconds), does about 3.5k threat (which is more threat than Thrash), and has a 0% chance of building your stacks faster or increasing the threat generated in the next GCD, and the question is which do you prefer? 3.4k threat guaranteed or a 48% chance to do ~1000 more threat and channel FL faster and a 52% chance of doing 3k threat with no extra benefits. 400 threat really is quite a bit of threat to be playing with in one GCD at the beginning of a fight, but when you look at the possibility of the extra threat from Shock and the decreased time to activate FL stemming from Thrash procs, the pros far outweigh the cons. So whilst Discharge does more threat than Thrash, it has less utility using it on cool down in the long run because Thrash has the chance to reset the cool down on Shock and allow FL to be used more often at 3 stacks.

 

So yes, technically if you look at a single GCD, Discharge is better than Thrash in terms of threat generation, but looking at a 12 second period of time, using Thrash over Discharge will net a higher average threat generation as well as a higher average mitigation (which is kind of what tanking is all about after the first 20 - 30 seconds of most fights).

 

Long story short, use Discharge to refresh your accuracy debuff if necessary otherwise Thrash away to get those procs.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Afieri

[NickAlexander]

@Kawabonga you're right, Maul/Shadow Strike is an awesome skill we get to use f2f, excellent threat and damage output. Unlike Project/Shock however, it's proc is limited to once every 10 sec.

 

Let's define a few things clear, because I don't want to make of this a borderline Thrash vs Discharge religion thing. Every single skill you have needs to be timed in relevance to what you're actually doing and what is actually important in that particular fight at that point. In PVP we can argue the damage you put out and the debuffs, and all that wonderful stuff, but I really hope we were all talking about PVE here (at least I was). I've been engaging high DPS phases and ditching mitigation entirely when we either kill fast or die anyway by thrashing, shocking, mouling and the below 30% thingy just for the sole purpose of putting out procs as much as possible and damage as much as possible out there(occasional shock + FL Recklessness). I've entered tank switches without protection stacks just because a DPS is too lazy to farm his gear and relies on drops. All I'm saying is that in a general fight, Discharge/Breach has a important place in your tank skill prioritization (I don't really wanna call it rotation anymore...) as long as you are able to keep your protection stacks and prioritize properly. It's 10m mobile friendly (if you have to move and the boss is like an old lady on a train) and as long as you proc and use your Maul/Shadow Strike proc every 10 sec, throw a Discharge/Breach.

 

Maybe I was a bit loose when I said "use brech/discharge on cooldown". My point, again, is once you have and use your Mauk/SS proc have it prioritized over the next Thrash/DS.This will also not starve you for force since it's cheap, debuffs the boss and keeps you threat happy in a GCD and it's not "surprisingly bad".

[AzlanWhite]

Great guide.

 

So I levelled a jugg tank which I pretty much enjoyed and had him geared in 72s/78s, and ditched levelling my vang tank at 51 cause I felt the fun factor was rather lacklustre for reasons I don't really know why. I decided to level up a Sin tank and see how it works for me, especially when I'm surrounded by peeps who deemed sin tanks as the worst of the three. It became my motivation the same way it made me main merc heals instead of the other two that I have.

 

I felt very satisfied somewhat, I fell in love with how the tanking feels alot more alive and aggro is much easier to maintain IMO. But the higher I got, the less space I have in my quickbars and the more it kept my vision away from the fight to study procs and maintain them buffs. I got a little worried that I'm gonna lose interest in her fast until I came here and figured out I've been doing alot of mistakes.

 

So yeap it relieved me of a rather heavy burden, made tanking alot simpler so I can return to hopping around tanking the way I enjoy doing it, and in process of gearing her for harder 55 content.

 

So again, much appreciation for your work KBN. (:

 

- Latte of The Harbinger, hop with me if you see me.

[PKaxe]

Can I just say. Firstly, you deserve all credit for the guide. But the guide only provides rotation "as said in the name of the threat". But does not show surviveability.

 

 

How is Assassin/shadow Survival compared to Jugga or Powertech?

 

That is the matter I'm mostly quries about. Returning back after 6 months absence, I've found my sin very squishy in HMFP's.

[Aelanis]

Can I just say. Firstly, you deserve all credit for the guide. But the guide only provides rotation "as said in the name of the threat". But does not show surviveability.

 

 

How is Assassin/shadow Survival compared to Jugga or Powertech?

 

That is the matter I'm mostly quries about. Returning back after 6 months absence, I've found my sin very squishy in HMFP's.

 

There are some serious Alpha Strikes going on in HM FPs. That squish happens to all the tanks, to a degree. You just see it more on Assassins, once they burn through your Dark Ward charges.

[PKaxe]

There are some serious Alpha Strikes going on in HM FPs. That squish happens to all the tanks, to a degree. You just see it more on Assassins, once they burn through your Dark Ward charges.

 

Any advice on how I work around it?

[Aelanis]

Learn when they happen, and use an Adrenal/Overcharge Saber/Deflection. Also make sure the healer knows what's about to happen.

[Kawabonga]

Can I just say. Firstly, you deserve all credit for the guide. But the guide only provides rotation "as said in the name of the threat". But does not show surviveability.

 

 

How is Assassin/shadow Survival compared to Jugga or Powertech?

 

That is the matter I'm mostly quries about. Returning back after 6 months absence, I've found my sin very squishy in HMFP's.

 

There is no such thing as a "threat rotation" or a "survivability rotation". The rotation here described allows for maximum threat, and it's perfect to keep the only defensive component that comes from your active abilities, Dark/Shadow Protection (not counting Dark/Kinetic Ward since it's off gcd). No reason to not go through this one unless you need AoE threat.

 

Any advice on how I work around it?

 

Knowledge of the fights is really the only thing that can save you. There are many scripted attacks, unfortunate situations or specific adds that spawn and deal a crapton of damage right off the bat. You need to know when they're coming and which cooldown to use. That really just comes with experience though.

[Oxidsed]

dumb question time...

Is there ever a place for Crushing Darkness in a tank priority list? I got quite a bit of tankasin practise while leveling in FP's over the doubleXP weekend, and was re-arranging my bars to fit new abilities on, when I noticed this ability that I had not been using. None of the guides seem to mention it, so just wanted to check it was OK to get rid of it off my bar when tanking?

[Aelanis]

dumb question time...

Is there ever a place for Crushing Darkness in a tank priority list? I got quite a bit of tankasin practise while leveling in FP's over the doubleXP weekend, and was re-arranging my bars to fit new abilities on, when I noticed this ability that I had not been using. None of the guides seem to mention it, so just wanted to check it was OK to get rid of it off my bar when tanking?

 

It has exceptionally small use while tanking. You can use it as an off-tank in raids to add a tiny bit more damage, but you have no know you won't be taking any damage at all for 2 seconds, as you have no pushback protection on it. Even then, it might be optimal to avoid it and instead focus on getting Force Lightning with 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness off faster. You can safely remove it from your bars if you want.

[KeyboardNinja]

It has exceptionally small use while tanking. You can use it as an off-tank in raids to add a tiny bit more damage, but you have no know you won't be taking any damage at all for 2 seconds, as you have no pushback protection on it. Even then, it might be optimal to avoid it and instead focus on getting Force Lightning with 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness off faster. You can safely remove it from your bars if you want.

 

Remove it from your bar.

 

Crushing Darkness does a very, very small amount of damage relative to its cost. You're talking about 40 force, 2 second cast (not including possible pushback), for less damage than you get from a Shock. Remember that the tooltip for CD is bugged, so the initial hit is less than a third of what it claims to be. Even DPS sorcs only use CD with a damage-increasing proc (Madness) or an indirect damage increase from the ticks (Lightning's cooldown reduction on Polarity Shift).

 

I would love to have some sort of proc to make CD cost less and cast instantly, just because it would lend a really unique flavor to the assassin tank rotation, but it isn't strictly needed. Barring something dramatically cost and cast reducing, there is no way to use Crushing Darkness at all as a darkness assassin.

Edited March 19, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Oxidsed]

You can safely remove it from your bars if you want.

Remove it from your bar.

Thanks for the responses and explanations guys. Good to clarify. Must say I have really been enjoying the rotation of darkness tank, it is very interesting. And tanking has been a nice change from my heals Merc. Look forward to getting him to 55 and into "real" content

[DomiSotto]

I can't believe I just printed a 7-page guide on how to play a video game character. I think those skill tree are not mis-named. But I have already AC'd a char as an Assassin, so... nothing for it. Thank you so much for writing it! Edited May 21, 2014 by DomiSotto

[Evolixe]

2 stickies, same title, same content. Perhaps an idea to collapse them into 1?

[Aelanis]

2 stickies, same title, same content. Perhaps an idea to collapse them into 1?

 

It's honestly just a relic of when the boards were separated. I think keeping them separate is okay, because the "X/Y" format you'd have to do for every ability and talent would get very cumbersome.

[Evolixe]

It's honestly just a relic of when the boards were separated. I think keeping them separate is okay, because the "X/Y" format you'd have to do for every ability and talent would get very cumbersome.

 

We're going to have to start dealing with that anyways now that the forums are merged.

People will be talking in Shadow AND Assassin synonims one through the other and not always explaining the other side.

 

Perhaps It's a good idea to write a legend on that for the people whom have never played the other factions mirror class.

[Aelanis]

We're going to have to start dealing with that anyways now that the forums are merged.

People will be talking in Shadow AND Assassin synonims one through the other and not always explaining the other side.

 

Perhaps It's a good idea to write a legend on that for the people whom have never played the other factions mirror class.

 

I smell a new stickied post.

[Evolixe]

I smell a new stickied post.

 

Hue

 

This should do, although I'll take any critisizm.

[agentwx]

First and foremost it was a commendable act from a marketing point of view achieving the changes introduced in 2.5. It was definitely not a Pareto Optimal solution yet you managed to pull it off. Hats off as the changes hurt so many user groups:

• ones who level an assassin/shadow tanks
  
• PvP focused players who were tanking with their assassin/shadow
  
• role players, and the ones who cared about the lore
  
• skilled PvE players who enjoyed the quite mobile tank that assassin/shadow was pre 2.5
  

 

The changes created a turret tank which remained RNG dependant. The example video does not alleviate this. Instead of showing how "Stress-Free" is the rotation in fights which were cited as the reason of the changes (any or all of the following nightmare difficulty bosses: Brontes, Tyrans, Calphayus or The Council) the example video features a level 38 opponent. This boss was soloable by end game players even pre 2.0 therefore it does not seem very credible for showing off just how "Stress-Free" the rotation is. A ranked match with a decent enemy team (and without healer in your group) would have been way more convincing.

[DogEyedBoy]

• skilled PvE players who enjoyed the quite mobile tank that assassin/shadow was pre 2.5
  

 

The changes created a turret tank which remained RNG dependant.

 

This makes no sense. Before the changes Assassins/Shadows had to channel the full duration of buffed Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw as often as possible to maintain maximum mitigation, since the changes they just have to land one tick every 12 seconds. That's infinitely more mobile and very non-turret like.

[restofever]

First and foremost it was a commendable act from a marketing point of view achieving the changes introduced in 2.5. It was definitely not a Pareto Optimal solution yet you managed to pull it off. Hats off as the changes hurt so many user groups:

• ones who level an assassin/shadow tanks
  
• PvP focused players who were tanking with their assassin/shadow
  
• role players, and the ones who cared about the lore
  
• skilled PvE players who enjoyed the quite mobile tank that assassin/shadow was pre 2.5
  

 

The changes created a turret tank which remained RNG dependant. The example video does not alleviate this. Instead of showing how "Stress-Free" is the rotation in fights which were cited as the reason of the changes (any or all of the following nightmare difficulty bosses: Brontes, Tyrans, Calphayus or The Council) the example video features a level 38 opponent. This boss was soloable by end game players even pre 2.0 therefore it does not seem very credible for showing off just how "Stress-Free" the rotation is. A ranked match with a decent enemy team (and without healer in your group) would have been way more convincing.

The changes to Shadows/Assassins in 2.5 didn't really change your rotation much or how you played the class. The new mechanics in fact make it more mobile than ever before. I'm also confused as to how the changes effected lore or RP. It actually makes more sense that your flying debris absorbs damage prior to it coming to you rather than throwing debris at someone healing you.

 

Can you elaborate on how the 2.5 changes effect what you listed?

Edited November 7, 2014 by restofever

[KeyboardNinja]

First and foremost it was a commendable act from a marketing point of view achieving the changes introduced in 2.5. It was definitely not a Pareto Optimal solution yet you managed to pull it off. Hats off as the changes hurt so many user groups:

• ones who level an assassin/shadow tanks
  
• PvP focused players who were tanking with their assassin/shadow
  
• role players, and the ones who cared about the lore
  
• skilled PvE players who enjoyed the quite mobile tank that assassin/shadow was pre 2.5
  

 

The changes created a turret tank which remained RNG dependant. The example video does not alleviate this. Instead of showing how "Stress-Free" is the rotation in fights which were cited as the reason of the changes (any or all of the following nightmare difficulty bosses: Brontes, Tyrans, Calphayus or The Council) the example video features a level 38 opponent. This boss was soloable by end game players even pre 2.0 therefore it does not seem very credible for showing off just how "Stress-Free" the rotation is. A ranked match with a decent enemy team (and without healer in your group) would have been way more convincing.

 

I can show you a Nightmare Bestia pre-nerf kill where I lose my stacks exactly once (and then only because I decided that the debuffs were more important in that moment) for the entire nine and a half minute fight with heavy movement and target swapping. Brontes and Tyrans don't count (as you should know) since no sane shadow/assassin runs full tank spec on those fights. Calphayus is a joke, and also has more than enough downtime to make the stacks non-existent. As for Council, Bestia's punt alone prevents stack maintenance unless your guild solo tanks and you manage Calphayus. However, the punt also makes it less interesting to maintain your stacks all of the time, since you're not taking damage for a good chunk of the phase.

 

Basically, all of the bosses you listed are terrible exemplars, and several bosses you didn't list would be more convincing. And as for the "ranked match without a healer" idea… That's a completely artificial scenario, and one in which none of the other tanks would do particularly well either. I've done it, and I've performed adequately, but the fact is that no class is balanced around soloing down ranked groups.

 

The video attached to the OP is intended to show how the rotation works without other distractions. If I wanted to show how the rotation can be applied to challenging content, I would have shown a different video.

 

We're not a turret tank. We are actually more mobile than we were before because we use Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning less often! Pre-2.5, we had to use it on cooldown. No exceptions. Ever. Now, we have a full 12 second window and only a single tick is required to refresh. That gives us a ton of time to play with. The only part of the rotation that is rigid and punishing, honestly, is getting that first Project/Shock in to avoid delaying the second one. As long as you have a target to hit and can activate that ability on schedule (hint: you basically always can), there really is no problem.

 

Regarding your last point (skilled PvE players who enjoyed mobility), the skilled PvE players who were playing the tank pre-2.5 are well aware of how immobile it really was. If you think you have less mobility now than you did before, then you were simply not playing the class correctly.

[Kalispa]

O gee could you post another video in a fight that requires almost zero situational awareness and no movement, because that would prove your point spot on KBN. They need to extend the timer, or give us something that is a one shot to reset the time on the stacks so that if we do need to move and our 4% drops off at least we will have the proc stacks up so when we can we can get the 4 back with out spending 10 second rebuilding our proc buff

[KeyboardNinja]

O gee could you post another video in a fight that requires almost zero situational awareness and no movement, because that would prove your point spot on KBN.

 

I'll post a dummy parse video next time.

 

For the last time, the video was not meant to prove any point other than that there is enough time to refresh your stacks. That's all.

 

They need to extend the timer, or give us something that is a one shot to reset the time on the stacks so that if we do need to move and our 4% drops off at least we will have the proc stacks up so when we can we can get the 4 back with out spending 10 second rebuilding our proc buff

 

If your buff is falling off, I'm sorry but you're doing it wrong. I hate to go all "L2play" on you, but that's basically what it comes down to. The new rotation is slightly different from what I posted in the OP (I'm planning on updating it), but it still has the same basic structure and principles. At the end of the day, if you're using Project and Slow Time on cooldown and hitting Cascading Debris as soon as you have 3 stacks, you're going to have your damage reduction buff up 100% of the time.

[DogEyedBoy]

What happened to the set bonus providing 4 stacks upon using Force Pull? Stacks still don't fall off, but it'd make me feel a bit better about pulling with Crushing Darkness.