KBN's Stress-Free Guide to the Tank Rotation

[KeyboardNinja]

Remember that Double Strike is two hits. So, double the amount of threat you see it doing on a single hit. Also, remember that on a dummy, you don't have the armor debuff that you have on a boss (unless you use the modifiers, which it looks like you didn't). Thus, DS has it's threat reduced on a dummy, while Force Breach does not.

 

My gear is essentially maxed aside from implants, where I'm using two Kell Dragon. Look at my log, or just take the average numbers I listed. Given the length of my parse (20 minutes!), I think the numbers I listed should be fairly authoritative.

 

As I said, Force Breach is one of your worst threat generators even without including proc chances. It's really, really, surprisingly bad, and even your own logs bear this out (when adjusted for the armor debuff that you lacked).

 

Thok has the correct explanation for the taunt mechanics. Threat is not done with a "big bag of threat" that is shared among the party. Not at all. Experiment with mobs to verify this fairly easily (or even with the combat dummy). Each player has their own threat level. Threat and agro work very, very differently from how they do in wow, and honestly I think that part of the problem here is you're trying to carry over your understanding of threat from that game. It doesn't apply here.

Edited February 4, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[NickAlexander]

Unbelievable... I'm done with this. Theory craft all you want with marginal arguments from an inaccurate side application and infantile urge not to be embraced about the only thing you've been lying to yourself you're good at. For your own sake and if you are able, please read your actual logs. I started posting this here, so people can have an actual perspective and numbers out of the logs. Here is a summary of the skills in question with BIS + full willpower and str datacron collection:

 

12:20:16.462 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Force Breach for 1 154 internal damage (3 463 threat)

I'd like to point out that this is NOT a crit.

 

12:24:50.629 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 751 energy damage (1 502 threat)

(also a non-crit one. Provided we go for middle ground and the other one neither misses or crits x 2 = 3004 Threat)

 

Both attacks are performed in the same conditions. Lie to everybody again how using a debuf ranged ability that generated more threat on average than a melee ability that has an unfavorable chance to proc one of your other good skills is "really, really, surprisingly bad".

 

I'm not trying to play teacher. My recommendation to the people reading this thread is to take it as a good general advise, but please make some research on your own. I don't insist on being on top, so if anyone doesn't take my advice, hope you're doing better than me

 

I've provided as much proof as I can provide on a training dummy + actual logs, regarding how taunt works without going a video, and I'm certainly not doing this for this thread since you'll just simply deny without providing any proof of your own. Read please.

 

For the record - I've never been in to WoW, checked it out, got to lvl 20 and hated it.

 

And for the people that ask for logic while they're drunk:

1. You pull, gain 8k+ threat -> taunt and level your threat to the highest one in your group = wasted pull

2. Taunt and level your threat to the highest one in your group -> You pull, gain 8k+ threat = you gain that much threat to your new and modified agro pool.

 

And yes, there is a good chance somebody HAS higher threat than you, since it takes 150% of threat for that one to steal agro.

 

You decide for yourselves which is the superior move. And remember kids, I don't have to do anything - everybody can jump on parsec and/or read the actual logs and see that you're full of sith, so don't be a Jar-Jar

[THoK-Zeus]

@NickAlexander:

How can someone not be smart enough to read the tooltips of your actual abilites, even after multiple people tell him to do so?

 

Thrash gives you a 51% Chance that your next Shock is a critical hit. That is a threat increase. I find it unbelievable that you think we lie about very very Basic Facts of the assassin skill tree.

 

Your own "proof" completely obliterates your own conclusion. I used your own parsec numbers to show you that your conclusion is wrong.

If you can't understand the threat difference between a crit shock and a non-crit shock you have my fellow feelings.

 

Also it's 110% or 130% threat depending on the range you are actual Standing away from the Boss.

Edited February 5, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[NickAlexander]

Thrash gives you a 51% Chance that your next Shock is a critical hit. That is a threat increase. I find it unbelievable that you think we lie about very very Basic Facts of the assassin skill tree.

 

This is a lie:

Energize

While Dark Charge is active, damage dealt by Thrash, Maul, Lacerate and Assassinate has a 30% chance to finish the cooldown on Shock and make your next Shock a critical hit. Energized Shocks that consume a charge of Recklessness deal an additional 50% critical damage.

 

On the republic side it's called Particle Acceleration. The % chance, as stated, is unfavorable.

 

Your own "proof" completely obliterates your own conclusion. I used your own parsec numbers to show you that your conclusion is wrong.

If you can't understand the threat difference between a crit shock and a non-crit shock you have my fellow feelings.

 

Shock/Project is superior. Spamming the threat inferior Thrash/Double Strike for a 30% chance for your shock/project and/or shadow strike/maul(limited to once every 10 sec) to proc instead of applying a Force Breach/Discharge is bad for your agro generation. Also, Thrash/Double strike, costs more force than Force Breach/Discharge.

 

Also it's 110% or 130% threat depending on the range you are actual Standing away from the Boss.

 

Proof please. Where do you have this knowledge? This is one of those moments, where the word on the street doesn't hold any value

Edited February 5, 2014 by NickAlexander

[THoK-Zeus]

This is a lie:

Energize

While Dark Charge is active, damage dealt by Thrash, Maul, Lacerate and Assassinate has a 30% chance to finish the cooldown on Shock and make your next Shock a critical hit. Energized Shocks that consume a charge of Recklessness deal an additional 50% critical damage.

 

On the republic side it's called Particle Acceleration. The % chance, as stated, is unfavorable.

....

I guess you make that on purpose, but anway:

 

And how many times does thrash deal damage?

Answer: 2 Times!

Therefore the Chance is with easy stochastic:

1-((1-0,3)*(1-0,3))=0,51 =51%

 

(basically the chance that thrash doesn't proc a shock critical hit is 49%)

 

A more detailed explanation (without formulas) of stochastics:

The Chance that you don't get a crit shock from the first tick of Thrash damage is 70% (1-0,3). The Chance that you don't get one from the next tick of Thrash is 70% aswell.

 

Therefore the chance of not getting any crit Shocks with thrash is 70% * 70% = 49%.

 

Therefore the chance of getting crit Shocks is 51% (1- 49%)

 

And as proven with your own evidence it's superior (read my first post in this thread).

 

Proof please. Where do you have this knowledge?

 

You can test and see it on raid bosses, or you test it on a real fight with a dps in your Group...

Edited February 5, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[Darth_Dreselus]

Just so you know the 110%/130% are not made up.

 

This is done on a VG because my Sin isn't 55, but the principle is the same. I have also not used the armor debuff but that is irrelevant.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/577976

 

Parse 1: Storm, taunt

Parse 2: Storm, step away to 4m+, taunt

Parse 3: Storm, step away to just under 4m, taunt

 

Parse 1: 1 747 threat from Storm, taunt puts threat to 1 924 (1 747*110%=1 921.7)

Parse 2: 2 638 threat from Storm, taunt puts threat to 3 432 (2 638*130%=3 429.4)

Parse 3: 1 747 threat from Storm, taunt puts threat to 2 274 (1 747*130%=2 271.1)

 

 

What can be seen:

1. Threat at 'facetank' distance is 110%

2. Threat at over 4m is 130%

3. Threat at just under 4m is also 130%, this demonstrates that the distance of the threat threshold is not that of the outside of the hitbox (the distance shown on the UI) but rather the distance from the centre of the hitbox. This is an important consideration for certain bosses.

4. The resulting value is either rounded up and the taunt itself adds 2 threat or it is rounded down and the taunt adds 3 threat, going of your own parses it looks like the former. I was unable to replicate as simply taunting the dummy does not log on Torparse.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[Aelanis]

http://www.torparse.com/a/578059/1/0/Log

 

In that log, I hit the dummy once, with Breach. Breach, first, hits and applies its damage, causing the threat it's supposed to, and then it generates another 2 threat, registering as another hit. Average the 2 together, and that's why TORParse says it has such low threat. It took me a while to figure it out, but there it is. Maybe we need to re-examine it a little bit in that way.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/578059/3/0/Log

 

With regards to taunt, though, the 110%/130% thing is real. Sure, the ability itself only generates 2 threat. But it adds the Taunt effect to the target, which generates a ton of extra threat. The second log was against the dummy as well, just me, and I taunted, and it still gave me threat, which, by your explanation, should be impossible, since, according to you, taunts only put you at the maximum level of threat, which could only have been me. I could have done it at a great enough distance to show that it works at a distance as well, but I deemed that unnecessary.

[NickAlexander]

@THoK-Zeus

 

To be completely honest, haven't given it that much thought if the 2 attacks counted towards the roll. I always thought it was on the Upheaval/Chain Shock principle (namely - the triggered effect chance is rolled on the ability activation).

 

Turns out you're right, it really does count each and every time is does damage (dat melee attack thoe ). I just tested it and it's apparent:

 

03:38:47.817 You activate Double Strike

03:38:47.817 You spend 23 Force

 

03:38:48.038 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 718 energy damage (1 436 threat)

03:38:48.508 You gain Particle Acceleration

03:38:48.509 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 732 energy damage (1 465 threat)

 

 

03:36:24.998 You gain Particle Acceleration

03:36:25.183 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 1 195* energy damage (2 390 threat)

03:36:25.985 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 696 energy damage (1 393 threat)

 

 

It's a fun fact, but the best thing about it is it doesn't prove your point. The % chance is still 30%. Just like if you toss a coin, regardless of how many times it lands on heads, next toss is still 50/50. The correct equation is 30/100 + 30/100 or (2*30)/(2*100) etc. You still were prepared to lie to people coming here for tips to cover up your shame caused by either ignorance or desperation

 

 

Here's a Force Breach with a crit :

03:43:52.671 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Accuracy Reduced

03:43:52.671 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Combat Technique for 298 internal damage (596 threat)

03:43:52.672 Combat Technique causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 171

03:43:52.672 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Force Breach for 1 763* internal damage (5 290 threat)

03:43:53.098 Force Breach causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2

 

I'll take 5.2k threat in a GCD any day.

 

I also never figured out what the 2nd tick is for. Perhaps it's a modifier on its own and I'll test it for myself with a DPS once I get the chance.

 

 

 

@Darth_Dreselus & @Aelanis God bless you - finally an intelligent response...

 

Although The million dollar question is who's 110/130% of threat is it adding to the pool? Is it always yours, Is it your highest threat holder, Is it an average.... been nerding this out for a while.

 

I know one thing. When parcing on a dummy along with a DPS this happens:

 

Straight from out of combat:

12:35:58.717 You enter combat

12:35:58.754 You activate Mind Control

12:35:58.754 You lose Sprint effect

12:35:58.755 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Taunt

12:35:58.755 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5 (3 threat)

12:35:59.188 Mind Control causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2

 

With a DPS buddy going all out on the dummy and me just autoattacking:

12:55:03.720 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Taunt

12:55:03.720 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5 (94 749 threat)

12:55:04.178 Mind Control causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2

 

With the DPS (unguarded) and me doing a rotation(slacking a bit so he gets more threat than me):

12:59:19.666 You activate Mind Control

12:59:19.666 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Taunt

12:59:19.667 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5 (8 504 threat)

12:59:20.132 Mind Control causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2

12:59:25.763 Operations Training Target MK-5 loses your Taunt effect

 

Additionally in ops, I have parsec on the 2nd monitor and when smb is spiking and I taunt, I get a boost very similar to his/hers. I say similar, because I can't accurately follow it in real time - parcers lag and I can only eyeball it. A marksman/sharpshooter sniper/gunslinger has a very distinctive opener agro print, so this is where my conclusion comes that you are leveled and given a tiny advantage to the highest threat. This is how it works in WoW so from the tools we have I'm not seeing a better way to investigate this than pairing symptoms. Let me know your thoughts on this.

Edited February 5, 2014 by NickAlexander

[KeyboardNinja]

If you throw a fair six-sided die twice, what are the odds that one or both of the outcomes are 4?

 

Let's look at this by cases. There are several possible ways in which our desired outcome (at least one 4) can be achieved. One die could come up as 4, while the other comes up as some other value. Or the first die could come up some other value, while the second comes up 4. Or they both could come up 4. That pretty much sums it up. What are the odds in each of these cases?

 

One die 4: 1/6

One die not 4: 5/6

 

Two cases require these two conditions simultaneously. Joint probability of independent events is computed as the product, thus:

 

One 4, and one not 4: (1/6)*(5/6) = 5/36

 

Note how this is not 1/6 + 5/6, since it is clearly not guaranteed that we have one 4 and one non-4. We could have two 4s, or no 4s at all.

 

Now, we have two different ways of seeing this sort of situation: die A getting a 4 with B getting a non-4, and the opposite. Further, we have to consider the odds of both dice getting a 4. Those odds are similarly easy to compute:

 

Both 4: (1/6)*(1/6) = 1/36

 

So we are now ready to combine our three cases to get the odds of any die being a four across two throws. We have defined these the cases to be distinct, and thus we compute the disjunction of these independent events by addition:

 

5/36 + 5/36 + 1/36 = 11/36

 

This is precisely the probability of one or both dice displaying a 4 when two are thrown.

 

As it turns out though, we have a shortcut to this knowledge. We can simply look at the problem backwards. Asking "what is the probability of seeing at least one 4?" is the same as asking "what is the inverse of the probability that we don't see any 4s?" As it turns out, the latter is much easier to calculate.

 

The inverse of a probability P is simply 1 - P. The probability of seeing a 4 is 1/6, and thus the probability of not seeing a 4 is 5/6 (note: we actually already computed this above). The probability of two dice not displaying a 4 is clearly independent, but we need both dice to cooperate, so we use the computation of independent joint probability:

 

Both not 4: (5/6)*(5/6) = 25/36

 

But remember, this isn't the odds of seeing a 4, it is the odds of not seeing *any* 4! Thus, we need to negate this probability, giving us the odds of not not seeing a 4, which is the same as the odds of seeing at least one 4:

 

1 - 25/36 = 11/36

 

In other words, the same answer we gained above.

 

------

 

Stop calling people liars without checking your facts. Seriously. It's making you look bad. What I just described above is very basic probability theory. Five minutes of time spent on Wikipedia will get you all of the above and more. It is in fact exactly the same thing that Thok described. We can use the example from above to compute the probability of Double Strike giving us a proc on one or both of the hits. Note, this is exactly the same sort of question we were asking with the dice: two hits, each with a certain probability of success. We can do it the long way, or we can use the negation trick to make our lives easier. Both give the same answer. Taking the negation shortcut:

 

1 - (1 - 0.3)*(1 - 0.3)

 

In other words, what are the odds that we don't proc project on *either* hit? Given those odds, what are the odds of that not happening? As it turns out, this answer is precisely 51%, just as we have been saying all along.

 

For the record, the odds of tossing a coin twice and getting one or more heads is precisely 75%, by the same reasoning. This isn't because the first outcome influences the second, but because we are counting both outcomes when we look at the results of the whole.

 

Regarding taunt mechanics, there is a lot of well documented research which generated the common understanding of how threat and taunts work. I would link these articles and this research (which goes back to the early days of the game), but you don't seem to be very open to other people's knowledge. The combat logs linked in this thread cover things pretty well though. By repeating the experiments in those logs and by adding in another player, you'll be able to see exactly who's threat is being multiplied by the taunt. Just be sure to look at both combat logs so you know who is at what point in the threat table before and after you taunt.

 

The Force Breach setting threat up by 2 is interesting, and that definitely skews the averages. The easiest way to account for this in the averages is to just pretend that it isn't changing the threat a second time at all and just double the average, bringing it to about 3500 in my log. That is indeed better than double strike on its own, though worse than double strike once you factor in the 51% proc rate (as Thok pointed out).

 

My point originally was actually that Project is a better threat generator than Force Breach by a fairly wide margin. The numbers originally showed Double Strike also being better on its own, which is incorrect, but the Project numbers (and the proc-inclusive Double Strike numbers) remain untouched.

 

To be clear, I'm not annoyed with you because you are challenging "accepted" wisdom on these matters. Far from it. Challenging accepted wisdom is what truly cooperative theory crafting is all about. However, the attitude of superiority which you are constantly demonstrating together with an apparent and powerful bias against evidence presented by anyone but yourself is incredibly frustrating. Thok and I have tried to explain our results and our evidence in the clearest way possible, and you have simply refused to listen. Challenge and question "authoritative" evidence by all means, but when you disbelieve or simply don't understand, your response should be to ask more questions, not to insult someone and play the victim.

Edited February 5, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Darth_Dreselus]

With a DPS buddy going all out on the dummy and me just autoattacking:

12:55:03.720 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Taunt

12:55:03.720 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5 (94 749 threat)

12:55:04.178 Mind Control causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2

 

The problem here is that this is not the full story. You need to know what your buddy's threat was before you taunted. I'm pretty sure it was in the region of either;

 

94 749/1.1 = 86 135

or

94 749/1.3 = 72 884

 

dependent on distance, give or take 2 threat.

 

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. As KBN said the inner workings of threat and taunts have been established a long tine ago, unfortunately most of those logs have been lost in Torparse handover. I'm also just pointing out that anybody can do these experiments themselves, they require no knowledge of theory crafting, only basic maths.

 

In relation to threat of Force Breach/Discharge, it kind of reminds me of VG/PT. You have the option of either high threat rotation or survivability rotation. VG/PT can either spam Ion Pulse/Flame Burst for high threat or only use Ion Pulse/Fire Burst ever 10s and spam Hammer Shot/Rapid Shots to get maximum uptime on Energy Blast/Heat Blast. Obviously a Shadow/Assassin does not actually gain any more survability by refreshing the stacks before 12s, but it does give margin of error allowing for movement etc.. This guide has been titled "KBN's Stress Free Guide" and clearly the idea is to keep the stacks of Shadow/Dark Protection up. The easiest and thus the most stress free way of getting those stacks is by getting 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows/Darkness ASAP, i.e. by Using Double Strike/Thrash, Shadow Strike/Maul and Spinning Strike/Assassinate to proc additional Projects/Shocks. This guide did not say that what is being presented is the highest threat rotation. (Granted it was implied in the priority list.)

 

It would be interesting to see the difference in TPS of a rotation that uses Force Breach/Discharge on cd and one that does not. Sadly I cannot parse one yet but somebody else could.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[NickAlexander]

KBN, you actually make a good point and I'm not ashamed to admit I was wrong. Doesn't make your equation right thoe. You use the word "precisely" rather loosely. Giving it a little more thought it's true we need an event to occur once out of 2 attempts, but you aren't taking into account the 93% accuracy tanks should have, which drives the event chance a dial back. This turns in to a Complex Domain Probability (not entirely sure that this is the translation in English for it since I've been learning this in another language). Will dig up my old textbooks and make the equation, but I'm still pretty sure it's still going to be less than 50% (which should make it unfavorable chance).

 

On 02.01.2014 , 09:32 PM | #31 you commented on the following and tried to disprove my statements in my first post:

 

Um, what? Without sounding elitist, I really think you should do some more research on both powertech and assassin tanking. The powertech "rotation" is a lot more of a proc dependent priority queue than the assassin rotation is, since only Rail Shot retains a fixed cooldown.

 

No worries, you don't sound elitist at all . As I stated, as a vanguard/powertech you have to watch for one proc Pulse Engine/Flame Engine. The rest is skill priority once it comes off cooldown. Heat blast/Energy Blast is always ready to use once it comes off cooldown and you're tanking. This makes it rotation friendly. Shadow/Assassins have multiple procs and active mitigation management. Also, we're cooldown addicted...

 

About resource management:

No, it shouldn't be ignored. Even on classes with linear energy return, abilities still have costs. You need to make sure that you have the resources to use your high priority abilities when they come off cooldown. Waiting to regenerate resources from an empty pool may not kill your energy like it will with a powertech, but it will cause you to delay your heavy hitters, which is both a threat and a mitigation loss.

As long as you prioritize properly I don't see how what you said is even relevant. Exceptions are ofc when you need to help out in dps or make sure you are refreshing your protection stacks, so you're ready to take over.

 

No and no. Slow Time does do the most threat of those three, but Force Breach does the least by far. Force Breach does only slightly more threat than Double Strike. Project does almost as much as Slow Time, and it is used far more frequently.

 

and

 

As mentioned, Force Breach barely tickles. It should be used on cooldown if AoE tanking, but otherwise it is only useful for refreshing the accuracy debuff.

 

Now that we determined that you were fooled by a side application's statistics (which does not excuse you btw), I take it we all agree that Slow Time and Force Breach are your top non-proc threat generators.

 

Next ones, I'm not going to quote, since you're not the only one stating different stuff:

 

About engaging with an absorb adrenal:

If you're cheap and you don't want to spend money, make your tank a biochem. I do it to ensure a smooth start without any spikes and stuff while everybody is ramping up and positioning themselves. As a Shadow / Assassin I have plenty of cooldowns to use and now I'm having trouble thinking of a fight that requires constant mitigation spike shortly after the start. More to the point, Shadow/Assassins usually assume the role of the offtank, being because they drop their phase walk or because other tanks have more armor than us and the raid leader is more comfortable. When taking over the fight for the other tank is a very good moment to engage with a stim.

 

Regarding pulls and taunts - I believe we determined that the taunt is a threat multiplier, but not YOUR threat multiplier as some people have been insisting. So if you do a tank switch(and yes, with a taunt, which does not share the GCD) a pull after the taunt would boost your threat in the long run.

 

I would also like to add that Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning is overrated as a threat generator (invaluable as a mitigation tool, which means you shouldn't shy away of cutting it short if you're just refreshing your 4 stacks if you had them prior.

 

From your log:

Telekinetic Throw (average threat x4): 11136.08

 

Taking in to account that it's a 3 sec cast - 3712 threat per hit

 

Darth_Dreselus, You still have plenty of time to refresh the 4 protection of stacks even if you use Breach/Discharge in rotation. And he insisted that this guide is optimized for both mitigation and threat generation.

 

On a personal level - there is no emotional attachment to anything I've said. I even learned a fun fact about the Double Strike/Thrash proc chance. I just noticed inaccuracies in your guide that need to be addressed, because this leads to some very sithy situations. If a new player comes it, they'll take a look at the guide, get some partially wrong tips that might get them kicked out of a raid group and it might lead to leaving the game for good. I've seen it before - people coming in, armed with a bucket of partially inaccurate info and being blamed for it. I don't need any knowledge myself in case you're wondering. Don't care if my point gets through, I just beg the people reading "tanking rotations" to explore for themselves and doubt everything. Including my statements too! I just know that what I'm doing works better for me quite well in comparison with the other shadow/assassin tanks I'm coming across.

[leto_cleon]

On another note, taunting doesn't level you out with the highest threat, it puts your threat at 110% of the highest threat if you're in melee range, and 130% of the highest threat when you're further away than 4 meters. So later in a boss fight, it will give you a ludicrous amount of threat.

 

Quick tip, its actually 4m from the centre of the boss. 4m on the range that you see displayed is measured from the outside of the bosses targetting circle

[THoK-Zeus]

@NickAlexander:

When accounting 94% accuracy you get 48,5% proc Chance. 1- (1-0,94*0,3)² And no! it doesn't become less viable then Discharge when it has a less then 50% proc Chance.

 

(Also assassins tanks have an average crit Chance of 19% in tank gear)

Same calculation as before:

Still 1500 + 1500 + 0,485*1800*0,81= 3707 is still a lot more then the 3460 from Force Breach (without accounting more Shocks and faster Force Lightnings which accounts for even more threat.

 

Basically your own numbers still prove your conclusion wrong by such a very very large amount. Thrash is still >> then Discharge in terms of both threat and single target damage.

 

And no, Force Breach is no top threat Generator!

It's a necessity because it provides are very good debuff. If someone else in my group (a juggernaut tank for example) provides it, i will happily Thrash the whole time and never ever use Force Breach unless for area purposes.

 

No one uses pull for tank Switches it's a waste of a gcd (cause taunt alone puts you after 20-30 seconds in the game so far ahead of every dps that threat doesnt matter anymore).

 

It's only needed for new spawning enemys and then you start with pull and then taunt.

 

It's absoluletly nonsense to start with an absorb adrenal! The start of any fight is the smoothest point for any healer. Every Person in the raid has kotlo Shell/kolto probes/bubbles, every Person is at 100% health. It's the absolutley absolutley worst point to waste your adrenal. At the beginning of any fight there's no healing required at all! It's like not using a shield Generator as a tank. It's literally the worst thing you could possibly do with your adrenal as a tank.

 

Also Force Lightning is not overrated as a threat Generator. 11000 threat of 2 global cooldowns is 5500 threat per global cooldown. That's a lot more then Thrash, uncritted Shocks....

 

Summary: Honestly, everything you say is wrong, there's not one single point in your statement above were i could even just partially aggree with.

Your talking about wasting adrenals, using excactly your worst abilities, makes you simply look like somebody that wants to ensure that every sin tank plays his class as bad as possible.

 

The only thing i can say: Do excactly the opposite of what you write!

Edited February 6, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[Kawabonga]

About engaging with an absorb adrenal:

If you're cheap and you don't want to spend money, make your tank a biochem. I do it to ensure a smooth start without any spikes and stuff while everybody is ramping up and positioning themselves. As a Shadow / Assassin I have plenty of cooldowns to use and now I'm having trouble thinking of a fight that requires constant mitigation spike shortly after the start. More to the point, Shadow/Assassins usually assume the role of the offtank, being because they drop their phase walk or because other tanks have more armor than us and the raid leader is more comfortable. When taking over the fight for the other tank is a very good moment to engage with a stim.

 

Regarding pulls and taunts - I believe we determined that the taunt is a threat multiplier, but not YOUR threat multiplier as some people have been insisting. So if you do a tank switch(and yes, with a taunt, which does not share the GCD) a pull after the taunt would boost your threat in the long run.

 

Just jumping in to say that taking into consideration the new operations, there is very little "off tanking" to do. Out of 10 bosses i can only think of 2 in which there is an off tank, Draxus and Grob'Thok (and i'm always main tanking those two). All the other bosses require tank swaps, so no off tank. As for using an adrenal at the beginning of the fight i'm a bit perplexed. Usually when you're about to pull you have a barrier and HoTs up and running. Sure, it's a mitigation increase, but so is starting off using any other cooldown (varies from boss to boss obviously). Much better i think, is to save the adrenal for a moment when healers are struggling and you need to refresh Ward.

 

Taunt assigns to the tank the highest threat on the table multiplied by 1.1 or 1.3 depending on range, +2 (thank god for that +2, otherwise we'd be funked ).

 

The rotation here described (i haven't actually watched the video but i know it's the rotation i've always been using) is the best one in terms of damage output while keeping buffs and debuffs up just fine. Once the fight is over the 30ish seconds mark the aggro table is set in stone. 110% of the other's aggro is more than enough to stay safe in the knowledge that you're not going to lose it any time soon. There really is no point engaging a threat race for the whole fight and go for a max threat rotation (which may or may not contain discharge/breach on cooldown, it isn't very clear yet).

 

Edit: TL;DR= What the previous post says

Edited February 6, 2014 by Kawabonga

[Darth_Dreselus]

Thok, KBN or any other Shadow/Sin could you please do a parse with FB/Dis on cd as opposed to the suggested rotation. I know parsing on dummy is annoying for tanks due to no resource gains through mitigation but it would at least give us something to point to when people do not accept theory crafting.

[NickAlexander]

@NickAlexander:

When accounting 94% accuracy you get 48,5% proc Chance. 1- (1-0,94*0,3)² And no! it doesn't become less viable then Discharge when it has a less then 50% proc Chance.

 

I only stated the proc chance is unfavorable. Anything less than 50% by definition makes it that.

 

(Also assassins tanks have an average crit Chance of 19% in tank gear)

Same calculation as before:

Still 1500 + 1500 + 0,485*1800*0,81= 3707 is still a lot more then the 3460 from Force Breach (without accounting more Shocks and faster Force Lightnings which accounts for even more threat.

 

Are you assuming force breach/discharge doesn't crit? As evident in what I posted above, it does - it's 5.2k threat.

 

 

Basically your own numbers still prove your conclusion wrong by such a very very large amount. Thrash is still >> then Discharge in terms of both threat and single target damage.

 

Damage, yes, threat no. None of my numbers show what you are trying to twist.

 

And no, Force Breach is no top threat Generator!

It's a necessity because it provides are very good debuff. If someone else in my group (a juggernaut tank for example) provides it, i will happily Thrash the whole time and never ever use Force Breach unless for area purposes.

 

From the data we gathered - it's right up there with shock/project... not sure if you've been following

 

 

No one uses pull for tank Switches it's a waste of a gcd (cause taunt alone puts you after 20-30 seconds in the game so far ahead of every dps that threat doesnt matter anymore).

 

It's only needed for new spawning enemys and then you start with pull and then taunt.

 

There's no such thing and "threat doesn't matter anymore". If you're more than 10m away from the boss you're taking, yes it's a viable option since you don't really have a skill that does more threat in a GCD(except the taunts ofc).

 

It's absoluletly nonsense to start with an absorb adrenal! The start of any fight is the smoothest point for any healer. Every Person in the raid has kotlo Shell/kolto probes/bubbles, every Person is at 100% health. It's the absolutley absolutley worst point to waste your adrenal. At the beginning of any fight there's no healing required at all! It's like not using a shield Generator as a tank. It's literally the worst thing you could possibly do with your adrenal as a tank.

 

When taking over a boss when tank switch comes according to my healers proves beneficial. It's not a rule set in stone. If you're using a reusable adrenal according to my experience is beneficial in most cases.

 

Also Force Lightning is not overrated as a threat Generator. 11000 threat of 2 global cooldowns is 5500 threat per global cooldown. That's a lot more then Thrash, uncritted Shocks....

 

You're assuming every attack lands. which is not the case. Remember they fixed the protection to stack even when you miss? Remember how much worse it was keeping your stacks up, should you let it drop?

 

 

Summary: Honestly, everything you say is wrong, there's not one single point in your statement above were i could even just partially aggree with.

Your talking about wasting adrenals, using excactly your worst abilities, makes you simply look like somebody that wants to ensure that every sin tank plays his class as bad as possible.

 

The only thing i can say: Do excactly the opposite of what you write!

 

I don't want people to take my word for anything I have to say, let alone you, as a set in stone. I'm stating there are some points of misinformation in this post and everybody needs to test this on their own. I don't care if you really ain't worth sith.

[THoK-Zeus]

I only stated the proc chance is unfavorable. Anything less than 50% by definition makes it that.

No that doesn't make it unfavorable. As you easily can see in my calculations the turningpoint would be 31,55% proc Chance

(Even then thrash would be more favorable as more you get more Shocks + more force lightnings but that would be the turning oint if you let These things aside). (48,5% > 31,55%)

 

Are you assuming force breach/discharge doesn't crit? As evident in what I posted above, it does - it's 5.2k threat.

I assume non crits for every ability. Thrash non crit =3000 threat. Discharge non criit =3460 crit according to your numbers.

 

Counting in the auto shock crit (1800 additional threat according to your numbers* 0,485*(1-0,19)) Thrash is a lot more favorable threat wise then Discharge.

 

 

Your data simply proves that Thrash >> Discharge. The calculation is already in my first post in this thread (and multiple times again in this thread).

 

 

There's no such thing and "threat doesn't matter anymore". If you're more than 10m away from the boss you're taking, yes it's a viable option since you don't really have a skill that does more threat in a GCD(except the taunts ofc).

Every tanking class is easily able to generate more sustained threat then any dps class. Therefore yes, threat doesn't matter anymore after a certain time and Force Pull becomes a waste of a gcd.

 

 

 

 

You're assuming every attack lands. which is not the case. Remember they fixed the protection to stack even when you miss? Remember how much worse it was keeping your stacks up, should you let it drop?

What?! Do you think your other attacks have a different miss chances compared to Force Lightning ? Why shall i not be able to compare the threat of different skills an assassin has?!

 

 

 

I don't want people to take my word for anything I have to say, let alone you, as a set in stone. I'm stating there are some points of misinformation in this post and everybody needs to test this on their own. I don't care if you really ain't worth sith.

Sorry, but the only misinformation comes from you. You want to destroy this thread by spreading permanent misinformation . Instead of reading my calculation with your numbers you simply pretend it's not there and continue posting although your conclusion got already refuted by multiple persons with your own numbers.

Edited February 6, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[KeyboardNinja]

KBN, you actually make a good point and I'm not ashamed to admit I was wrong. Doesn't make your equation right thoe. You use the word "precisely" rather loosely. Giving it a little more thought it's true we need an event to occur once out of 2 attempts, but you aren't taking into account the 93% accuracy tanks should have, which drives the event chance a dial back. This turns in to a Complex Domain Probability (not entirely sure that this is the translation in English for it since I've been learning this in another language). Will dig up my old textbooks and make the equation, but I'm still pretty sure it's still going to be less than 50% (which should make it unfavorable chance).

 

Thok and I were (somewhat unfairly) ignoring accuracy. It's actually pretty easy to include accuracy though, because it becomes a basic case of joint probability:

 

1 - (1 - 0.3 * 0.93)^2 = 48.02%

 

Slightly unfavorable, but still good.

 

If I get a chance today (or later this week), I'll run the numbers on what happens to TPS if you use Force Breach on cooldown as opposed to Double Strike or Shadow Strike, taking into account the reduced rate of Project and the delay on Telekinetic Throw.

 

No worries, you don't sound elitist at all . As I stated, as a vanguard/powertech you have to watch for one proc Pulse Engine/Flame Engine. The rest is skill priority once it comes off cooldown. Heat blast/Energy Blast is always ready to use once it comes off cooldown and you're tanking. This makes it rotation friendly. Shadow/Assassins have multiple procs and active mitigation management. Also, we're cooldown addicted...

 

Even with Pulse Cannon, you still can pretty much just use it on cooldown. Arguably, it's better if you use it unproc'd as soon as it comes up, since then you can get two in a row. You just need to be aware of whether or not it is proc'd so you can predict the duration and the ammo cost. So, some awareness, but still mostly "use on cooldown".

 

I absolutely agree that there is more conditional proc awareness required for shadows, especially in a stop-and-go raid setting where the rigid rotation structure tends to drift out of sync.

 

As long as you prioritize properly I don't see how what you said is even relevant. Exceptions are ofc when you need to help out in dps or make sure you are refreshing your protection stacks, so you're ready to take over.

 

I like to keep my stacks up even with off-tanking. Also, I'm always helping out on DPS. There is never a moment where I am not contributing damage to the raid (unless some mechanic forces me not to, such as Force Leech). It's for that reason that I think the force management point is relevant.

 

Additionally, there are some bosses which will not give enough defense/shield procs to maintain a force neutral rotation. Nefra is a pretty good example of this, since her swing timer is close enough to the line that a string of bad RNG can actually run you out of force. Being aware of the thresholds required in the rotation allows you to see this situation and plan in advance, avoiding the danger of dropping stacks due to simply lacking the force required to a) Project, and b) Telekinetic Throw.

 

Now that we determined that you were fooled by a side application's statistics (which does not excuse you btw), I take it we all agree that Slow Time and Force Breach are your top non-proc threat generators.

 

Project is still better on average. I essentially don't look at whether or not I have the Project proc, and obviously I wouldn't fish for it if I'm trying to maintain threat. My first unproc'd Project was worth 4133 threat. My first Force Breach was worth 3466 + 2 = 3468 threat. That's excluding the Upheaval proc. If we include the stochastic value of Upheaval, we have 4133 * 1.3 = 5372.9 threat on average, which actually makes it better threat per activation than Slow Time and better TPS than even Telekinetic Throw!

 

If you're cheap and you don't want to spend money, make your tank a biochem. I do it to ensure a smooth start without any spikes and stuff while everybody is ramping up and positioning themselves. As a Shadow / Assassin I have plenty of cooldowns to use and now I'm having trouble thinking of a fight that requires constant mitigation spike shortly after the start. More to the point, Shadow/Assassins usually assume the role of the offtank, being because they drop their phase walk or because other tanks have more armor than us and the raid leader is more comfortable. When taking over the fight for the other tank is a very good moment to engage with a stim.

 

I always open the fight (and I drop Phase Walk from stealth before hand). In fact, even guilds that relegate shadows to the off tank role as much as possible (*ahem* HATRED) tend to have the shadow open first simply due to the better snap threat. None of the healing classes in this game have a serious ramp up time. Sages have the most ramp up, and it's only a single GCD! Everyone starts the fight with all their cooldowns up, so there's really no concerns.

 

I don't care about adrenal cost. I craft them by the boatload, and it's so easy to make money in this game that there's never really any danger of running out. The reason not to burn an absorb adrenal in the opener is you won't have it again for three minutes. That's an enormous amount of time. In most serious progression content, I have a scripted use of adrenals at some point in the first three minutes of a fight, and it's almost never the opener. For example, on NiM DG, I use an adrenal at the transition point into the second phase to give the healer's a bit of breathing room going into the first Strangle. For NiM Thrasher, I pair my adrenal with Battle Readiness on the second Sniper pack. Obviously, that's old content now, but it was progression content when I was doing it. Both the second sniper pack and the death of Hierad come less than three minutes into the fight. If I had burned my adrenal early, I wouldn't have it up, and I would have wasted that adrenal in a part of the fight where the boss isn't hitting maximally hard (no stacks from Kel'sara/Ciphas when you start; no snipers/circles/roar from Thrasher) and when the healers have all of their cooldowns and all of their energy available.

 

Regarding pulls and taunts - I believe we determined that the taunt is a threat multiplier, but not YOUR threat multiplier as some people have been insisting. So if you do a tank switch(and yes, with a taunt, which does not share the GCD) a pull after the taunt would boost your threat in the long run.

 

If you do a tank swap, then I agree that Pull after the taunt is better (since then you're adding to your post-multiplied threat, as opposed to adding to threat which will be overwritten by the taunt), but if you're tank swapping, you have more than enough threat already, so there's almost no need to Pull at all. If it's a fresh spawn with an empty threat table, then Pull before Taunt is paramount, since then Taunt has non-zero threat to multiply.

 

I would also like to add that Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning is overrated as a threat generator (invaluable as a mitigation tool, which means you shouldn't shy away of cutting it short if you're just refreshing your 4 stacks if you had them prior.

 

If you get all four ticks, it averages 11.1k threat, which is to say 3712 TPS. 3712 TPS is actually higher TPS than even Slow Time (on average), which does 3214.4 TPS. I'm not sure I would call that "overrated".

 

I do break it early though if mechanics call for it. I just don't break it in the opener.

 

Thok, KBN or any other Shadow/Sin could you please do a parse with FB/Dis on cd as opposed to the suggested rotation. I know parsing on dummy is annoying for tanks due to no resource gains through mitigation but it would at least give us something to point to when people do not accept theory crafting.

 

Sigh… You're going to make me do another 20 minute parse, aren't you? :-)

 

Note that because of the loss of resource generation, I was really really low on Double Strikes in my existing dummy parse. I think if I used Force Breach on cooldown, I would have almost none. This means that the contrast between the two won't be as substantial, since I'm getting very few auto-crits and (more importantly!) very little reduction on Telekinetic Throw's effective cooldown.

Edited February 6, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Malaka_Blue]

Fight should be engaged with a stim because you don't have your kenetic/Dark bullwark stacks at all and the boss is not debuffed and hots and healer ramp-up hasn't started. You have plenty of cooldowns as a shadow/assassin to use untill it's off cooldown.

 

This is just completely laughable that you haven't figured out how to start the fight with all four stacks.

 

Use stealth prior to engaging and, voila, 4 stacks.

And if your healers haven't popped a bubble or a hot on you prior to the start of a fight then they aren't doing their job.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Malaka_Blue

[Darth_Dreselus]

Sigh… You're going to make me do another 20 minute parse, aren't you? :-)

 

Note that because of the loss of resource generation, I was really really low on Double Strikes in my existing dummy parse. I think if I used Force Breach on cooldown, I would have almost none. This means that the contrast between the two won't be as substantial, since I'm getting very few auto-crits and (more importantly!) very little reduction on Telekinetic Throw's effective cooldown.

 

Quesh Boss? Just stealth away when he gets low. Pretty sure any other low level high HP thing would work. I would do it myself but Sin ended up last on my leveling list so only 40 atm.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[NickAlexander]

@Malaka_Blue, I'm talking about the Bulwark stacks, not the protection stacks.

 

@THoK-Zeus You just stated that you rather do a 3k threat move and hope for an unfavorable(not so much, but still) procs than do a GCD for a 3.4k threat... in an age of competing DPS that can roll out 30k damage in 3-4 GCDs and our epic accuracy with increasing number, unwillingness to incorporate pull(most threat in GCD) in the rotation of fights that you actually can not afford to taunt... I can not take you seriously. Rant all you want, I think is time I start ignoring you.

 

@KBN

For the record, I still don't agree with the whole "FB/discharge is crap" statement. I still believe that it should not be skipped unless the protection stacks are running out and you need to apply the TT/FL

 

I want to make something clear - TT/FL is your mother of mitigation skill, but I'm saying that if you have a real reason to cut it short you should. Ex. - Moving the boss out of his buff/debuff skill on DP, Taunting for an immediate tank switch, etc. Cutting it short in order to use use another skill that is off cooldown is not OK, if nothing else, you've already laid 30 force to cast it...

 

I'm not sure, but I've personally never been starved for force except for really annoying bosses like the TFB 2nd phase, Nerfa, Brontes.. but never the less, never critically out. Today I decided to try your rotation in a SM 16m and looking a bit more in to this, I noticed that Double Strike/Maul and Project/Shock are actually your most expensive skills. Grinding for a proc with double strke/thrash actually drains you quite a bit. It's true I probably use project a certain % less than you, but am not sure if that extra 3/6 force per Breach/Discharge cast isn't beneficial in the long run in terms of resource management. With Breach in the rotation I was able to keep the 4 protection stacks up even on a dummy (just on the tip, but still...). Tried the same with no Breach - got resource starved and missed a few. If you decide to try it, share your experience plz.

 

If you have characters on the ToFN we can do a DF /stuck run on Grob’Thok so you can test it out on an actual boss. I personally can do both Shadow/Sin or in any role for that matter.

[THoK-Zeus]

 

@THoK-Zeus You just stated that you rather do a 3k threat move and hope for an unfavorable(not so much, but still) procs than do a GCD for a 3.4k threat... in an age of competing DPS that can roll out 30k damage in 3-4 GCDs and our epic accuracy with increasing number, unwillingness to incorporate pull(most threat in GCD) in the rotation of fights that you actually can not afford to taunt... I can not take you seriously. Rant all you want, I think is time I start ignoring you.

 

Because the procs gives you thousands of thousands of additional threat points. A ~50% Chance for 1800 additional threat is a lot better then 400 additional threat from an ability... (Not even mentioning more Shocks + force lightnings).

 

If you don't understand very basic mathematics (x+y > z and i tryed to explain it long enough now to you), you have my fellow feelings.

 

Your next sentence is also completely wrong. You wanna use pull on targets you can't afford to taunt. That makes much sense....

Edited February 7, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[Kawabonga]

Well, if you're managing to do your rotation on a dummy then you are doing it wrong.

 

I was just checking a log vs Tyrans. 1 minute into the fight i have 3.3k threat. The highest dps parse on this boss is 3.6k (3.4k at the 1 minute mark). That means that threat wise i could just stand there looking pretty taunting for the tank swap and not worry about losing aggro. Aggro is only important at the very beginning of the fight.

 

Also worth mentioning:

Discharge average hit:1273, threat: 3850ish; max hit:1813, threat 5439

Thrash average hit:880, threat: 1761; max hit:1305, threat 2610

 

 

 

**Edit**

I spent 11ish minutes beating up a dummy using only thrash, maul (which no one seems to be factoring in) and discharge

 

Threat

Discharge - 3580ish (max 5513)

Thrash - 1594 (*2= 3188) (max 2617)

Maul - 5479 (max 7968)

 

Damage

Discharge - 1195 (max 1837)

Thrash - 797 (*2=1594) (max 1308)

Maul - 2739 (max 3984)

 

I'm not confident enough with the mathematics to attempt fancy theorycrafting, but that average threat on maul is definitely something that has to be considered in this silly argument of discharge vs thrash

 

Edit2: Done in full dread forged gear minus earpiece, using a Resolve Hilt 34, got all relevant datacrons. No thrashing blades, no exploitive strikes

Edited February 7, 2014 by Kawabonga

[NickAlexander]

Well, if you're managing to do your rotation on a dummy then you are doing it wrong.

 

I was just checking a log vs Tyrans. 1 minute into the fight i have 3.3k threat. The highest dps parse on this boss is 3.6k (3.4k at the 1 minute mark). That means that threat wise i could just stand there looking pretty taunting for the tank swap and not worry about losing aggro. Aggro is only important at the very beginning of the fight.

 

Also worth mentioning:

Discharge average hit:1273, threat: 1911; max hit:1813, threat 5439

Thrash average hit:880, threat: 1761; max hit:1305, threat 2610

 

Multiply thrash vaules by 2 and you clearly see that thrash >> discharge both damage and threat wise. Discharge is only slightly better than thrash threat wise if it crits. But then again, thrash has a slightly higher crit chance than discharge so...

 

It's not worth mentioning. You are using TP data only. Here's Aelanis's explanation why this is misleading:

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/578059/1/0/Log

 

In that log, I hit the dummy once, with Breach. Breach, first, hits and applies its damage, causing the threat it's supposed to, and then it generates another 2 threat, registering as another hit. Average the 2 together, and that's why TORParse says it has such low threat. It took me a while to figure it out, but there it is. Maybe we need to re-examine it a little bit in that way.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/578059/3/0/Log

 

I encourage you to try tanking Tyrans just by standing pretty and taunting for tank swaps and tell us how it goes

 

Full proper rotation on a dummy is not possible. Keeping protection stacks up is just about.

[Kawabonga]

It's not worth mentioning. You are using TP data only. Here's Aelanis's explanation why this is misleading:

 

 

 

I encourage you to try tanking Tyrans just by standing pretty and taunting for tank swaps and tell us how it goes

 

Full proper rotation on a dummy is not possible. Keeping protection stacks up is just about.

 

 

Point taken, i wasn't aware of that and it does seem quite strange to just add +2 threat. I edited the previous post to reflect a little bit more accurately the avg discharge threat. I'd do it precisely but torparse is painfully slow, so i just took the avg threat and multiplied it by 2, that should fix it more or less. The avg damage doesn't see to behave the same way, so it's accurate.

 

By standing still taunting obviously i meant after the 1 minute mark, and i'm not going to to put my mitigation and thus my whole group at risk any time soon just to prove a point.

 

I also had already edited the last post with more information before i read your reply, so look up again

Edited February 7, 2014 by Kawabonga