Bolstering and You: A letter from the Combat team

[TUXs]

I fully agree with this post. 8 months ago we asked a question, today they answer. During that time we allready lived through that answer, felt it and figured most of it out. I can't wait for them to answer all the "new" bolster questions we ask....should be any year now!

 

Myself, i have only 1 single question at this point: How exactly, could it possibly take 8 months to come up with this answer?

 

I understand the frustration...it's deserved. But Tait isn't the one who waited the 8 months...Tait joined this crew 2-days ago. Give him/her some credit for making THIS priority #1.

[Zunayson]

And it only took 9 months and the newest member of the community team to accomplish this.

 

the day when we were told a "mathy post on bolster" was coming

 

nevar forget

[Avicii]

imo bolster should check if a piece of gear has expertise

 

if gear has expertise --> do nothing

else --> Set stats to set piece of "recruit" gear REGARDLESS of stats on the item.

 

This would fix all the problems of pve gear being better than pvp gear.

 

This is essentially how Rift's bolster functions and it is a good way to go about it. Many noted this prior to the max level bolsters release. Although naked PvP had its perks and was one bug that wasnt so bad.

 

Code does a check do you have Exp in slot A equal to X amount, do you have it on Slot B ect. If not replace the slots stats with the appropriate stats for PvP that correspond to an iLevel just below the current entry PvP gear. Make X amount of EXP = Max Bolster for that Item Slot. This avoids people trying to find exploits using a PvP/PvE mix on the same item. Sounds simple but implementation I realize isnt always as simple.

 

Tait thank you for the effort and good luck.

[-Blade-Runner-]

"....The result is that we can ensure that PvP gear is always better than PvE gear (in PvP)....."

This is simply wrong. Do you really believe this buIIsh*t.

ROFL,.... typical Failware.

Edited January 9, 2014 by -Blade-Runner-

[ParagonAX]

If it is just a lottery, then I guess that explains why all the good players are at the top of their respective classes... Sure some games you will have the worst luck and you won't have much of a chance of winning, but these should be more or less balanced out by the times the opposite happens. If you are good you should win the majority of the times the match is somewhat balanced. (This is of course assuming you're not playing a broken class like dps operative.)

 

While I agree with you that the law of large numbers ensure good players eventually make their way to the top of the solo ranked list, solo q also severely limits the specs you can play if you are serious about winning.

 

For example, if you play a PT/Sin and you get matched up against another PT/Sin of equal skill, the PT/Sin that is in hybrid dps spec and can guard his healer will have a drastically higher chance of winning than the other PT/Sin who is running in pure dps spec, whereas theoretically if the system was skill based they would have 50-50 chance against each other.

 

Similarly for hybrid dps/heals specs, etc.

 

This is my primary gripe with solo ranked. It's just not fun when you are squished into the most effective spec.

 

Whereas for 4v4 ranked Q, most specs, barring a few extremely underwhelming ones, can fit into creative team compositions that good players have put together, and have succeeded with. E.g. in my earlier PT/Sin example, we've seen full shieldtech, hybrid pt tank, full ap, full pyro, full darkness, various hybrid dark mauls, full deception all work and win depending on how the team choose to play and complement their team compositions.

 

We've even seen "underpowered" specs such as lightning sorcs, arsenal mercs, pyro mercs, merc heals all do fantastic for teams with great players, whereas the same players playing these specs do not do nearly as well in solo ranked just on the sole basis of their class/spec being terrible for the solo q'ing system.

Edited January 9, 2014 by ParagonAX

[cycao]

I actually feel bad for TaitWatson. I mean first post that I can tell besides the intro post is to post into the PvP forums which is rare enough on a subject which is almost a year in the making which doesn't answer anything really.

 

Like throwing scraps into a lions den.

[Ottoattack]

Hey everyone!

 

One of the first things I wanted to do when I joined the Community team was something that I have seen requested over and over in the past few months: get the Combat team to write an in-depth explanation of the Bolster system. I'm happy to be able to bring you that explanation today!

 

 

 

If anyone has questions, just post them here and I will compile them and take them back to the team!

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Hello Tait,

 

It is good to see you guys did not forgot about this, and even though the post does not really tell the average player much (forgot PvP veterans and theorycrafters who are the audience for this forum to begin with), however, I will take you up on the questions. Here are my questions:

 

1- What is the value in stats of expertise crystals?

 

2- From my understanding, PvE gear above level 58 does not receive any stats bolster, but what is the exact cut-off level to which PvE gear does not receive a stats bolster.

 

3- We already know that PvE gear 3 modable items (including MH and OH weapons) follow that the level of armoring+mod+enh is equal or less than193 gets full expertise, assuming the highest level on any armoring+mod+enh is equal or less than or equal 69 (example 69 armoring + 66 mod +58 enh). So the bolster works per armoring+mod+enh basis and on total levels of gear basis? That needs clarification.

 

4- Based on number three, we need values of expertise provided in WZs either per item basis (3 modable combined) or per piece level basis, so we can calculate the value of expertise per PvE piece.

[TheDanski]

This has been discussed already, but I'd like to give my impressions...

 

Here is my issue with bolster. Currently most scenarios is Conq<PvE Bolster<Obroan. In some cases (Ear Pieces/Weapons/Other Examples) Conq<Obroan<PvE (!@#$) which is a complete tragedy IMO. Half of my conq pieces are waiting in my bank to upgrade to Obroan while I run fully bolstered PvE gear in slots waiting for the upgrade to Obroan on the pieces where it is actually best in slot. I guess its nice that I have some good Bolstered gear to get me there, but its silly to have Conq pieces mostly be useless if I bolster properly and even more of a tragedy to the pvp community to have PvE bolstered items be my BiS without stepping foot in a WZ/Arena.

 

I like the idea of Bolster to protect some of these fresh 55's from coming into WZs and getting slaughtered, but that fact that there is scenarios where a blue 53 PvE bolstered item (lvl 53 Blue Ear, and there are other examples) can be BiS over Obroan is a tad on the ridiculous side.

 

If they could just change it so that PvE bolster maxed out to be about 5-10% weaker than Conquerer, it would seem a little more respectful to the PvP gearing process. This way it will be Bolstered PvE< Conq < Obroan always like it already should be. This will make it so you can still not get too slaughtered in WZs while gearing up to full Conq and still make Conq upgrades feel like you are improving from a performance standpoint and further make Obroan the goal for everyone.

 

I'd also like to see the removal of bolster in ranked. This along with making Obroan always BiS would be such a deserved compliment to the PvP community IMHO.

 

TLDR Version - Gearing should always be Bolstered PvE< Conquerer < Obroan. Leave bolster for PvP gear grinders and fresh 55s, but remove from ranked.

Edited January 9, 2014 by TheDanski

[iRedRIng]

While I agree with you that the law of large numbers ensure good players eventually make their way to the top of the solo ranked list, solo q also severely limits the specs you can play if you are serious about winning.

 

For example, if you play a PT/Sin and you get matched up against another PT/Sin of equal skill, the PT/Sin that is in hybrid dps spec and can guard his healer will have a drastically higher chance of winning than the other PT/Sin who is running in pure dps spec, whereas theoretically if the system was skill based they would have 50-50 chance against each other.

 

Similarly for hybrid dps/heals specs, etc.

 

This is my primary gripe with solo ranked. It's just not fun when you are squished into the most effective spec.

 

Whereas for 4v4 ranked Q, most specs, barring a few extremely underwhelming ones, can fit into creative team compositions that good players have put together, and have succeeded with. E.g. in my earlier PT/Sin example, we've seen full shieldtech, hybrid pt tank, full ap, full pyro, full darkness, various hybrid dark mauls, full deception all work and win depending on how the team choose to play and complement their team compositions.

 

We've even seen "underpowered" specs such as lightning sorcs, arsenal mercs, pyro mercs, merc heals all do fantastic for teams with great players, whereas the same players playing these specs do not do nearly as well in solo ranked just on the sole basis of their class/spec being terrible for the solo q'ing system.

 

Even with all that, don't see how making solo arenas not have a form of matchmaking will make it any better. Would be stupid to remove the ranking system.

[JediMasterSLC]

imo bolster should check if a piece of gear has expertise

 

if gear has expertise --> do nothing

else --> Set stats to set piece of "recruit" gear REGARDLESS of stats on the item.

 

This would fix all the problems of pve gear being better than pvp gear.

 

That would be too logical

 

Thanks for the post Tait. That being said, I think it would be MUCH appreciated if another post made that addresses the following concerns:

 

1. Some of us are nerds and want to see specific formulas used to calculate bolster. This post was nice and all, but didn't really tell us anything beyond what we'd already figured out. Basically, give us the math.

 

2. Concerns about certain PvE pieces being superior to an obroan piece for a couple slots of gear in wzs.

 

3. A few people would like a bolster for PvP gear in op and fps, and though I doubt that anyone would genuinely ask for this if they were told that implementing said bolster would interfere (by means of diverting development resources away) with the development of new PvP content. I don't see why it would, since that would fall under PvE development (just like bolster for PvE fell under PvP dev). When I started this game at launch, I PvEd about as much as PvP, and I wouldn't mind trying out the 2 newest ops if my obroan gear was bolstered to be able to handle it.

 

4. Concerns about certain PvE pieces being superior to an obroan piece for a couple slots of gear in wzs. Repeat because it's probably what we care about the most.

Edited January 9, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[MocniSkopac]

Remove bolster from ranked, and also insert a gear check for that, my heart crash everytime a player with 24k hp join my ranked arena, i beg you please

 

i dont care if we have bolster or not, but u really cant express how much i support the idea of gear check for rated. maybe a valor check as well? like 50? it would mean that the guy was leveling thru pvp, as we dont ppl who had done quests to level up to jump into arenas immediately after dinging.

 

furthermore, the problem of guard; a typical scenario - 3 dps, 1 healer - if the healer isnt a complete bad, the team with guard will win 80% of the time. i think that should be addressed as well, with a rather easy fix - lock stances upon entering arena.

Edited January 9, 2014 by MocniSkopac

[varietasplus]

The result is that we can ensure that PvP gear is always better than PvE gear (in PvP), regardless of the purely PvE stat differentials.

 

I wonder which is worse: if it turns out that the combat team is still unaware of the fact that the quoted statement is false or if it turns out they are well aware of it.

 

Also I do not know whether I should be glad or extremely pissed at the fact that my optimized PVE Dread Guard gear with lev53 prototype earpiece and implants and an Obroboan offhand weapon is better than a full Conqueror set taking everything into consideraton (hp, damage, exp).

 

It might have been better if you had not posted this letter.

Edited January 9, 2014 by varietasplus

[Valkyriez]

Cheers Tait for the post.

 

People looking to exploit bolster for that last 1% of damage should play the game as intended. Just get your conq gear and then upgrade to Obroan. No more stressing or needing to look at math for bolster which is intended to help new 50's not get slaughtered.

 

Should the devs make changes to make sure that no possible combination of mode, gear etc will ever be more powerful than PvP gear ? Sure, but it's fine as it is for the moment and works well.

[ViciousFett]

Hey Tait, thanks for this. One thing I'd like to request is for the devs to remove expertise from the old PVP gear. I know it doesn't seem like that big of an issue, but I see new players coming back almost every day in warzones with gimped stats because they're under the impression that they're pvp gear is best for pvp. I know, weird... right?

 

As your post clearly points out, bolster is a hard concept for new and returning players to wrap their heads around, and by leaving expertise on Battlemaster, Champion, and recruit gear I think the devs have done a big disservice to the playerbase, which is an ongoing problem. They took the time to remove it from Warhero gear, but why did they not think anyone would use the older sets?

[Twin]

I understand the frustration...it's deserved. But Tait isn't the one who waited the 8 months...Tait joined this crew 2-days ago. Give him/her some credit for making THIS priority #1.

 

Oh, yeah i agree with that ofc. This wasn't aimed at him at all - i dont shoot the messenger. I do however aim it at, Eric was it, that originally posted about this? Tait is most welcome here, i have only seen him done good so far

[EzioMessi]

I understand the frustration...it's deserved. But Tait isn't the one who waited the 8 months...Tait joined this crew 2-days ago. Give him/her some credit for making THIS priority #1.

 

Agreed.

 

I also hate the fact that Bioware didn't even bother giving us the mathy post. But Tait has only just come here and this is the *first* post he did. If he really felt the need to (try to) resolve this question right off the bat, it can only mean good for future communications. Don't scare him off by raging.

 

OT: Thanks for the post Tait. Even though we kinda had figured a lot of this stuff, still, thanks for showing that you read our repeated requests for the mathy posts and care enough to try and resolve it.

[znihilist]

Agreed.

 

I also hate the fact that Bioware didn't even bother giving us the mathy post. But Tait has only just come here and this is the *first* post he did. If he really felt the need to (try to) resolve this question right off the bat, it can only mean good for future communications. Don't scare him off by raging.

 

OT: Thanks for the post Tait. Even though we kinda had figured a lot of this stuff, still, thanks for showing that you read our repeated requests for the mathy posts and care enough to try and resolve it.

 

It is foolish of us to expect a real "mathy" post (not that we deserve one, but that we will get one). Although there are some stuff we can extract from this one.

[EzioMessi]

It is foolish of us to expect a real "mathy" post (not that we deserve one, but that we will get one). Although there are some stuff we can extract from this one.

 

Well yeah, if we were simply asking for it, I could understand if it was a foolish hope.

 

But Eric had told that it was coming. Asking for something that we were told we were to get soon is perfectly sane, and not foolish.

 

What's more, I'm sure a simple "later" or something would have sufficed. But they ignored the repeated requests by the community, and silence is worse than a "no". That is what most people are mad about.

[StaticSilence]

For all the math requests I just thought of something. The mathematics behind bolster may be proprietary. The devs might not be legally allowed to show it.

[ParagonAX]

For all the math requests I just thought of something. The mathematics behind bolster may be proprietary. The devs might not be legally allowed to show it.

 

What are they afraid some other MMO is going to steal this "proprietary" formula to make their game equally as terrible?

[StaticSilence]

What are they afraid some other MMO is going to steal this "proprietary" formula to make their game equally as terrible?

 

Whether you think it's good or bad is irrelevant. It's intellectual property and they might be legally prohibited from showing it.

[AdmiralParmesan]

For all the math requests I just thought of something. The mathematics behind bolster may be proprietary. The devs might not be legally allowed to show it.

 

They don't want to show the math because it would become easier to learn how to bolster bug gear. Bolster bugging is very easy to do already and showing the math would only make the obvious problem more obvious.

 

HOWEVER

 

I am really glad this new guy took the time to post here. Thanks mr.new-guy, it may not seem like much but just showing you care enough to post what we were promised months ago is heart warming on these cold winter nights.

[Litzke]

Hey everyone!

 

One of the first things I wanted to do when I joined the Community team was something that I have seen requested over and over in the past few months: get the Combat team to write an in-depth explanation of the Bolster system. I'm happy to be able to bring you that explanation today!

 

 

 

If anyone has questions, just post them here and I will compile them and take them back to the team!

 

Thanks everyone!

 

I believe an easy response that majority of people are looking for would be: Can you please post a mathematical/algebraic formula, equation, ratio, statistic, or whatever that people can calculate it and understand for themselves?

[BarrinMarshall]

Tait: Thanks for the post bro.

 

1) Lowbies are glad bolster is in the low brackets, 55's are not.

2) In several examples, PVE gear bolsters better than PVP gear, even Obroan... would be more than happy to provide examples if you don't feel like reading through the forums. LOL

3) PVE gear, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES IMAGINABLE, should ever and I mean NEVER, be better or even as good as the top tier PVP set. If a guy sets himself out for the Obroan gear grind... once he gets there ALL pieces should be Best in Slot, Period.

4) Peeps in MMO's like to have goals to work towards obviously... the next level up, the next Reputation level, the next gear upgrade. The vast majority want to have some accomplishment (carrot at the end of the stick). Bolster makes the gear grind through PVP damn near pointless or at the very least utterly confusing and about as unituitive as it can get. PVP, specifically Obroan as of right now should be best in slot for ALL things PVP.

[DanNV]

Honestly, we'd be better off to dump expertise entirely. Convert PVP gear to corresponding level if PVE gear, give regular comms and see if that gets more people to play. If they don't want to put the top end PVP gear up to match top end PVE gear, then there needs to be a top point where anything above that gets cut off in PVP. But, PVP gear and expertise was a really bad idea 2 years ago and hasn't gotten any better. (Note, I have other posts where I go into more detail on how I'd convert gear and award comms, I won't repeat it here.)