So people are whining about the starfighter types huh?

[SBR_QuorTek]

I am just wondering why?

 

Each ship has a role, weak sides and strong sides:

 

Anyhow back to the topic.. and actual roles.

 

Scouts are dogfighters first on sight taking down stuff, captureing point, it is their role.

 

Strike fighters are overall heavy fighters, their role is taking down more heavy floating targets such as turrets, lining up shots on scouts/gunboats, have a wide arsenal of weaponry, strategic blasting, it is their role.

 

gunboats... well if you like space camping somewhere trying to shoot targets from distance I guess they are kind of cover fire, or trying to take out targets at a satelite or the likes, use? Doesn't really seem to have one, usually if the opposite team has to many of them out, people hunt them down while a few maintain control over the satelites, it is their role.

 

 

Anyhow what people do not get abou the space part in this game... this is not a game where you target a player and then spam a button so you will hit the target no matter where he is... you have to aim, keep aim.. shoot shoot and shoot regardless of whichever thing you are flying, yes you can target your enemy, but you have to actually point the gun physically in that direction to be able to hit anything, the other thing is flying around... people are all about omg... omg I need all upgrades to be awesome, NOT, if you have a sense of what you are doing or it is just you flying around like they do, then you got to build skill and use it.

 

It is not a matter of shiptype whenever it get to it, people can still fly a flashfire fully upgraded and suck, but be superb in a heavy fighter or the other way around.

 

Take a gunship.. it takes absolutely no skill to use except for a low DPI setup on the mouse for steady aiming, but it takes skill getting away once found.

 

Take a Scout... it takes absolutely no skill going to a satelite circling around it being annoying for a while capping it eventually or hopefully, what is tough is getting actual scout kills as you have to chase down and aim in flight, likewise be aware if someone got you in your scope, keeping best fireing range with the guns so on and so forth or constant locks on you.

 

Take a Strike figher... it takes absolutely no skill if you want to blast turrets with it, they go down very fast also they are semi fast and have good fast locks, also a good lineup on an approach on any ship and it will murder it, what takes skill in the heavy fighter is manegement of the full arsenal of guns/missiles and using them the right time the given situation.

 

Some different scenarios:

Take a gunship being somewhat chased, decides to fly directly towards a friend strike fighter, strikefighter get the message and as soon as the GB has passed you, you open fire and blast a couple of scouts into oblivion

 

Take a strike fighter being under heavy fire from scouts, briefly line up the shots for the gunship (can be done with scouts too) and they are picked off or crippled heavy going evasive, you can lock onto them and kill them easier.

 

Take scouts going for a gunship with there speed and evasion... gunship gets hit.. starts running away... strikefighter intercepts in between killing it.

 

But again... usually am flying in premades or dual premade teams with voip, so there is coordination between the vessels flying around what to do, call out for for this and that here and there.

 

Space is much more a team game compared to dirtside PvP, this is better organized you are and want to be in touch with those people you fly with, this more none working together, this faster it will fall apart for you and with todays standards, you need voice communication to be successfull in it, especially because they moved from 'auto' target based to skill based, like a first person shooter game, or other flight sim.

 

There is only one ship type I don't understand why they implented it this way and why we need them in this game, I don't understand the sniper concept of the gunboat, I mean you are here to fly not be a sitting killing machine, maybe they should had made it into ship in motions.. with semi heavy turrets that is controlled by a couple of players on board that ship having a pilot cruising around or nearby a satelite taking stuff down as it comes by.

[CKHelseth]

Whining? A little sure, but mostly its been good discussion on minor tweaks that could be made to bring the ships in line with each other.

 

Everyone is aware of the roles. Some are just finding, especially as ships are fully upgraded, that there are some imbalances. Not huge, but noticeable and to be expected in any multi-player game.

 

Compared to other discussion for other game modes, discussion on these forums has been quite civil and constructive, with a few rants of course (wouldn't be a forum without a few of those).

[Zoom_VI]

in the first two pages of the forum I can find people complaining about each of the ship types being overpowered.

 

Huston, we don't have a problem.

[SBR_QuorTek]

Honestly people have been waaah waaah waaaaah can't hit a scout.... seriously I am murdering them easy enough like anything else...

 

Was being constructive with this, maybe they would look into stuff as it is as well when reading some of it.

 

Edit:

No real tweaks is needed, just skilled people

Edited December 23, 2013 by SBR_QuorTek

[SBR_QuorTek]

Whining? A little sure, but mostly its been good discussion on minor tweaks that could be made to bring the ships in line with each other.

 

The ships are in line with each other, in each their special way!

 

Everyone is aware of the roles. Some are just finding, especially as ships are fully upgraded, that there are some imbalances. Not huge, but noticeable and to be expected in any multi-player game.

 

Apparently people are not aware of the roles, else there would be no issue, the issue come by people not being able to use what they have at hand for that ship type and blame everyone else for being OP, but in a skill based game you can have the 'best ship with all upgrades' and still suck horrible! It is a simple fact more is not always better or 'tweaks' towards all ship types to accomodate horrible players.

 

Compared to other discussion for other game modes, discussion on these forums has been quite civil and constructive, with a few rants of course (wouldn't be a forum without a few of those).

 

Quotes in green ( I hope)

[CKHelseth]

I see complaints, but the discussions are civil for the most part. That was my point. Not that people don't have concerns and aren't voicing them. These sub forums and the discussions don't strike me as anywhere near the vile negativity or incessant whining that has plagued the general forums or the pvp forums.

 

Sure people make complaints but it hasn't completely broken down into name calling and "look at me" contests.

 

Your post was not negative, beyond the name of the thread which categories any complaint or discussion about star fighter types as a whine, but is nothing that hasn't been said before in dozens of similar threads.

 

Rather than make these posts, why not participate in the existing discussions in a meaningful way that might change peoples minds to your way of thinking. As opposed to making the same thread about knowing roles or L2P that a quick search of the forum would show has been done many times before.

 

Now this same message goes for those voicing their complaints. Why not just consolidate them to one thread for discussion and not post a new one on the hour? People like the OP might not see the forum as just a series of whines if there weren't 15 threads voicing the same issue

[CKHelseth]

Quotes in green ( I hope)

 

I agree, pilot skill will generally win the day, but at the same time in a game like this imbalances will crop up. A good discussion about them is healthy if it remains civil. It will also hopefully lead to a Dev team willing to be more engaged with the players (dream a little dream... ha).

 

Dismissing everything as "scouts are OP! NERF DEM!" doesn't help and throwing the blanket L2P on any complaint isn't any better (well a bit maybe). Neither of those attitudes will lead to anything meaningful just people getting defensive and then nasty after a while.

[SBR_QuorTek]

I see complaints, but the discussions are civil for the most part. That was my point. Not that people don't have concerns and aren't voicing them. These sub forums and the discussions don't strike me as anywhere near the vile negativity or incessant whining that has plagued the general forums or the pvp forums.

 

Sure people make complaints but it hasn't completely broken down into name calling and "look at me" contests.

 

Your post was not negative, beyond the name of the thread which categories any complaint or discussion about star fighter types as a whine, but is nothing that hasn't been said before in dozens of similar threads.

 

Rather than make these posts, why not participate in the existing discussions in a meaningful way that might change peoples minds to your way of thinking. As opposed to making the same thread about knowing roles or L2P that a quick search of the forum would show has been done many times before.

 

Now this same message goes for those voicing their complaints. Why not just consolidate them to one thread for discussion and not post a new one on the hour? People like the OP might not see the forum as just a series of whines if there weren't 15 threads voicing the same issue

 

But it all come down to learn to fly and find out what suit you the best, no matter ship type there is no I win button unless ONE let them get away with.

 

Or for that sake I WIN ship, the forum PvP'ers always hit on people getting away with massive stunts in MMOs but space is not really MMOish, it is more like an arcade simulation that need hours of attendence unless you have native skills from other similiar games wether it is a serious flight/space sim or an arcade one.

 

Seriusly I see no need for a single tweak with anything no matter path of how you configured your ship, then you most of all optimized it so it work better for you and not the next person in line who might work better with another setup, unless you master multiple ways.

 

Edit:

Only tweak we need is being able to use sticks 3-4 axis support would be nice and of course a good PvE part as well would be awesome... free form areas, free form PvP areas as well.

Edited December 23, 2013 by SBR_QuorTek

[Itkovian]

I

Your post was not negative, beyond the name of the thread which categories any complaint or discussion about star fighter types as a whine, but is nothing that hasn't been said before in dozens of similar threads.

 

Rather than make these posts, why not participate in the existing discussions in a meaningful way that might change peoples minds to your way of thinking. As opposed to making the same thread about knowing roles or L2P that a quick search of the forum would show has been done many times before.

 

Well said. Designating any complaints as "whining" is rather missing the point.

 

Game balance is a real issue, and some things need to be refined for there to be balance. You simply cannot state that everything is balanced, because it never is in any games. That's why ground PvP still has imbalance issues after 2 years, just like PvP in every game out there.

 

Indeed, now is when imbalances will be the most glaring. As time goes on and more and more people reach endgame and poke at the cracks of the design, issues will and DO arise which should be rectified. To point these out to the devs by making posts is a good thing. I'd say it's precisely the sort of feedback the devs want.

 

Sure, there is a lot of noise, as in any forum, but to state that everything is balanced and any complaints are automatically people whining simply adds more noise to the discussion.

[CKHelseth]

But it all come down to learn to fly and find out what suit you the best, no matter ship type there is no I win button unless ONE let them get away with.

 

Or for that sake I WIN ship, the forum PvP'ers always hit on people getting away with massive stunts in MMOs but space is not really MMOish, it is more like an arcade simulation that need hours of attendence unless you have native skills from other similiar games wether it is a serious flight/space sim or an arcade one.

 

Seriusly I see no need for a single tweak with anything no matter path of how you configured your ship, then you most of all optimized it so it work better for you and not the next person in line who might work better with another setup, unless you master multiple ways.

 

Edit:

Only tweak we need is being able to use sticks 3-4 axis support would be nice and of course a good PvE part as well would be awesome... free form areas, free form PvP areas as well.

 

I see your point and for the most part I am in agreement. But looking at the GS records on my server and ones on this forum its pretty much just gunships and scouts for everything but damage taken, medals and defensive points. I don't believe that all scouts and gunships are simply better pilots, thus able to do better.

 

Now you can argue that strike fighters aren't meant to have that role. I can see that. I pretty much never die in my strike fighter, averaging about a death a match and taking a ton of dmg along the way. I have become a more defensive player as result, but like any pvp system those qualities feel a lot less rewarded by the devs.

 

So maybe that is the direction this discussion needs to go. Maybe the differences in ship types would be more accepted if dmg and kills weren't given such a priority in medals and achievements.

 

This same issue is faced by ground pvp tanks (full spec, not hybrid) that keep people alive and guard nodes well, but can't kill anything. They see a leaderboard that give little to no respect to their role in the wz and as result they see imbalance.

[SBR_QuorTek]

What matter is if you win the match or not whenever it get to it... ok a GS can get up to 100K damage if the opponent team do not get them down... likewise scouts can get 60K+ damage if not handled with swiftly, believe strike fighters can go nuts as well, at least have seen some crazy **** lol.

 

What is the problem for real though is not really the space crafts, if everyone is on voice or 4-8 out of the 12 is, which it is often when flying in guild, focus that guy... you 3 take on the GS's and destroy their day and so on and so forth.

 

I too see alot of scouts but only a few really outstand, so take it as an illusion, just because they are plentyfull does not mean they are any good

[Sangrar]

I have literally seen threads saying strike fighters, scouts, and gunships are all op. Yeah, that makes TOTAL sense

 

 

P.S. not really in case someone didn't get my sarcasm, its always hard to communicate sarcasm in a text

[SBR_QuorTek]

Totally get you... some people feel offended getting killed alot by a certain ship type... and instead of trying getting better it seem like it is always easier going to the forums and rant about it lol.

[Soul_of_Flames]

Well, to be honest, I think that anything that can happen to you suddenly, without provocation, and instantly (or very close to it) destroy you (provided that you're not already almost dead) is unfair and unbalanced.

 

Everything that happens in the game should be able to be countered after-the-fact.

 

I say this because they simply do not give us the tools to be aware of the environment and local players friend or foe.

 

How is someone expected to see a gunship charging up a bypass shot on you from 14000m away while you're chasing down a strike that's attempting to capture your satellite while you have two enemies trying to lock onto your tail and have 3 other enemies flying around fighting your allies?

 

There is nothing you can do besides accept defeat and respawn.. and to me that doesn't say fun or fair at all. And thus, the debates.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Soul_of_Flames

[SBR_QuorTek]

Well, to be honest, I think that anything that can happen to you suddenly, without provocation, and instantly (or very close to it) destroy you (provided that you're not already almost dead) is unfair and unbalanced.

 

Everything that happens in the game should be able to be countered after-the-fact.

 

I say this because they simply do not give us the tools to be aware of the environment and local players friend or foe.

 

How is someone expected to see a gunship charging up a bypass shot on you from 14000m away while you're chasing down a strike that's attempting to capture your satellite while you have two enemies trying to lock onto your tail and have 3 other enemies flying around fighting your allies?

 

There is nothing you can do besides accept defeat and respawn.. and to me that doesn't say fun or fair at all. And thus, the debates.

 

That works in the dirtside PvP yes... but space is skill based most of all and it actually has consequences when snuck up on for a take down where as in dirtside.. you can either stun the one run away of stealth out.

 

And yes you gotta have an eye over the entire field on the approach before engaging as well when doing space stuff, next is communication between people.

 

If you got shot down by the GS because you where chasing someone could might as well had been a goal to lure you into a line of fire.

 

What you are getting is kind of like real time vs 'rpg' time

[willfarlow]

And yes you gotta have an eye over the entire field on the approach before engaging as well when doing space stuff, next is communication between people.

 

If you got shot down by the GS because you where chasing someone could might as well had been a goal to lure you into a line of fire.

 

 

^This. (Grammar and spelling aside...KIDDING, don't get mad). But this point is well made...situational awareness. If you go in for a kill and are so focused on it that you ignore everything else, you're asking for trouble. And if you dive in on a target without scoping around a bit, you're gonna get jumped.

 

As for the "whining", well, I think it's just human nature...everyone likes the ships that they personally love to fly and hates the ones that kill them most often. So yeah, there will be lots of cries of "foul!", "cheater!" and "nerf!". Hopefully the devs are saavy enough to understand this, and any changes made for full release will be well thought out. And hey, it's still technically early access, don't forget...I'm trying to cultivate a "wait and see" attitude, myself.

[GooseGrims]

Well said. Designating any complaints as "whining" is rather missing the point.

 

Game balance is a real issue, and some things need to be refined for there to be balance. You simply cannot state that everything is balanced, because it never is in any games. That's why ground PvP still has imbalance issues after 2 years, just like PvP in every game out there.

 

Indeed, now is when imbalances will be the most glaring. As time goes on and more and more people reach endgame and poke at the cracks of the design, issues will and DO arise which should be rectified. To point these out to the devs by making posts is a good thing. I'd say it's precisely the sort of feedback the devs want.

 

Sure, there is a lot of noise, as in any forum, but to state that everything is balanced and any complaints are automatically people whining simply adds more noise to the discussion.

 

well said, and not to "poke the bear" but thats exactly what this thread is... a whine thread. op is whining about ppl "whining". OP should check out the post from the "Confessed Gunship Abuser" it was a good read and now i know why gunships tear me apart and i now try to sneak in at other angles and take them out, but even though i can kill a gunship maybe 1 out of 3-4 times doesnt mean there are no balancing issues, after reading that other post im really hoping they get hit with the nerf bat and/or if/when we get bombers they will beat up gunships.

 

and when i say "hit with the nerf bat" i dont mean nerf them to the ground so nobody will play them, just a figure of speech. but them having barrel roll and "love tapping" with w/e shot that is and getting the full debuff should be looked at. they are Supposed to be a slow cumbersome heavy hitting long range ship, THAT is their role!

[Soul_of_Flames]

And yes you gotta have an eye over the entire field on the approach before engaging as well when doing space stuff, next is communication between people.

 

If you got shot down by the GS because you where chasing someone could might as well had been a goal to lure you into a line of fire.

No, that is irrelevant. Teamwork and communication have nothing to do with what I was saying. It doesn't take teamwork to insta-kill someone from 15000m away.

 

My point is that nothing in the game should generate sudden killing blows from out of nowhere. You should not be allowed to sneak up on someone and then instantly blow them away in 2 seconds. You should be able to sneak up on someone and perform a crippling blow, but you should not be able to kill them that suddenly. Your target should be given the leeway of escape provided they think quick enough.

 

This has nothing to do with teamwork or communication. If someone wants to lure me out, fine, but it doesn't change the fact that my ship can still be blown away by a single enemy ship from full HP faster than I can blink.

[Grayseven]

^This. (Grammar and spelling aside...KIDDING, don't get mad). But this point is well made...situational awareness. If you go in for a kill and are so focused on it that you ignore everything else, you're asking for trouble. And if you dive in on a target without scoping around a bit, you're gonna get jumped.

 

As for the "whining", well, I think it's just human nature...everyone likes the ships that they personally love to fly and hates the ones that kill them most often. So yeah, there will be lots of cries of "foul!", "cheater!" and "nerf!". Hopefully the devs are saavy enough to understand this, and any changes made for full release will be well thought out. And hey, it's still technically early access, don't forget...I'm trying to cultivate a "wait and see" attitude, myself.

 

There is tunnel vision, where you miss or ignore the shots you are taking, and then there is getting one-shot killed from full to dead without any warning. Even though we know GS's are out there, we can not simply ignore the scouts and strikes taking an objective and at no time should one ship be so unbalanced as to force the entire battle to revolve around it because it can kill with impunity.

 

Discussing this is not a whine, discussing this is what will make the game better. If you so frustrate a large portion of your player base to the point that they decide that the GSF portion of the game is not worth it (a sentiment I see in my large guild) then you need to look at it. If it isn't discussed, discussed with intelligent discourse and dissected over and over again then we will never get to the core of the problem.

[LeonBraun]

On the contrary, Scouts are not primarily dogfighters, they are primarily objective hunters, racing to satellites and killing turrets. They are squishy however, which is why the heavy fighting and protection/backup needs to be done by the Strikers. Odd how some get this mixed up.

[LeonBraun]

No, that is irrelevant. Teamwork and communication have nothing to do with what I was saying. It doesn't take teamwork to insta-kill someone from 15000m away.

 

My point is that nothing in the game should generate sudden killing blows from out of nowhere. You should not be allowed to sneak up on someone and then instantly blow them away in 2 seconds. You should be able to sneak up on someone and perform a crippling blow, but you should not be able to kill them that suddenly. Your target should be given the leeway of escape provided they think quick enough.

 

This has nothing to do with teamwork or communication. If someone wants to lure me out, fine, but it doesn't change the fact that my ship can still be blown away by a single enemy ship from full HP faster than I can blink.

 

M is for "map"... All the fighters have sensors.

[Verain]

On the contrary, Scouts are not primarily dogfighters, they are primarily objective hunters, racing to satellites and killing turrets. They are squishy however, which is why the heavy fighting and protection/backup needs to be done by the Strikers. Odd how some get this mixed up.

 

Scouts are more than capable of defeating strike fighters in solo combat. There needs to be a pretty big melee before the scout's squish is even a factor.

 

I'm a little curious, like... when you play, do you run strike fighter and find that your shields and armor are solid defenses against scouts? Do you just ownyface them or something? Because that is not what I am seeing.

[Soul_of_Flames]

On the contrary, Scouts are not primarily dogfighters, they are primarily objective hunters, racing to satellites and killing turrets. They are squishy however, which is why the heavy fighting and protection/backup needs to be done by the Strikers. Odd how some get this mixed up.

Scout fighters are way more viable in a dogfight than strike fighters.

 

I primarily play scouts and strikes, and while I can attest that strike fighters pack a whooping and can blast enemies down fairly quickly, they do not have the assets to effectively dogfight in a busy area. I always fall back to my scout when combat gets intense.

M is for "map"... All the fighters have sensors.

Again, irrelevant. What does knowing the position of an enemy ship give you when there are 8 others of them buzzing around you at the same time shooting at random people?

 

There is absolutely nothing a player can do to not be insta-killed. Why is that so difficult to understand? It's "Suprise! You're dead!" not "Oh, this guy is trying to kill me... lets try and out maneuver him." You can't use any tactics when you're already dead to begin with.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Soul_of_Flames

[Verain]

Gun ships will always one shot unaware scouts.

 

 

The difference will be, post whatever fixes we will presumably be getting (unannounced, but I think it's fair to assume), they won't be one shotting them from full health + shields. I believe that this is an issue, and they'll address it. If a scout is full shield but 20% health or something, well, yea, that guy will probably get faced. But even then he had something to say about it, right? More so than on live at least.