How to Become a Contender: Supplemental(Bolster, PvP Gear, and You)

[MillionsKNives]

I also followed the link to this thread out of curiosity, from the one in GD. It's a well written guide, and lays out nicely what you want to look for in getting the most expertise out of bolster. I'm still a bit curious about what kind of difference that expertise really makes between running in 72/78 PVE gear vs. fully bolstered 63s. Do the extra stats make up the difference in expertise, or does it just not compare. Is this quantifiable?

 

I find that even with my PVE gear I'm running towards the upper end of damage in warzones on my merc. Would having full expertise do much to bring that higher?

 

Edit: Another thing I'm not quite sure about from what I read in your OP, is 63s (or relative equivalent) needed to get the most out of bolster, or can you get similar results with much worse gear? Similarly, what would happen if I went completely naked (because, why not )?

Edited January 28, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[L-RANDLE]

I also followed the link to this thread out of curiosity, from the one in GD. It's a well written guide, and lays out nicely what you want to look for in getting the most expertise out of bolster. I'm still a bit curious about what kind of difference that expertise really makes between running in 72/78 PVE gear vs. fully bolstered 63s. Do the extra stats make up the difference in expertise, or does it just not compare. Is this quantifiable?

 

I find that even with my PVE gear I'm running towards the upper end of damage in warzones on my merc. Would having full expertise do much to bring that higher?

 

Edit: Another thing I'm not quite sure about from what I read in your OP, is 63s (or relative equivalent) needed to get the most out of bolster, or can you get similar results with much worse gear? Similarly, what would happen if I went completely naked (because, why not )?

I have seen full 72/78 gear in WZs and you only get about 800-1000 EXP. The increase in main stat is around 1000-1500 iirc. This means you are trading 30% damage boost for and additional 300 in attack rating. So in my case my scream is 2998*1.60=4796. If I wore 72/78 , 3298*1.30=4287. That's not favorable. There is no gear tier that exist that can outpaced EXP. Maybe for tanks since raw HP could be a suitable replacement for EXP mitigation, but def not for healers and damage dealers..

[MillionsKNives]

I have seen full 72/78 gear in WZs and you only get about 800-1000 EXP. The increase in main stat is around 1000-1500 iirc. This means you are trading 30% damage boost for and additional 300 in attack rating. So in my case my scream is 2998*1.60=4796. If I wore 72/78 , 3298*1.30=4287. That's not favorable. There is no gear tier that exist that can outpaced EXP. Maybe for tanks since raw HP could be a suitable replacement for EXP mitigation, but def not for healers and damage dealers..

 

Thanks for that explanation. That definitely gives me a better idea of how much I lose out with end-game PVE gear.

 

One thing I'm still not quite clear on is how bolster treats gear that is under the that threshold of where it still gives you full expertise. Tait recently posted an explanation on bolster which implies that all gear that's considered under par is brought up to the same stats. However I've seen a bunch of references to having 63 gear because it straddles just below the line of getting full expertise. Does having 63s give me an advantage over having 40s, or for that case having nothing at all (i.e., naked)? If they are better is it because they go over what the bolster would give you in regular stats while still giving full expertise, or is it some crazy formula that just results in it being better?

[funkiestj]

I have another idea for BW to ignore: apply the WZ bolster while we are in combat with our ship PvP dummy.

 

This is in response to the anecdote that gree bolster does not equal WZ bolster. If it did then we could all just go to the gree area to try out bolstered setups.

[Crawelc]

Randle, I like to tank in pvp. Could you please explain to my how bolster works with tank stats, or if it works at all. I have been led to believe that bolster has no effect on defense/shield/absorb.

[L-RANDLE]

Thanks for that explanation. That definitely gives me a better idea of how much I lose out with end-game PVE gear.

 

One thing I'm still not quite clear on is how bolster treats gear that is under the that threshold of where it still gives you full expertise. Tait recently posted an explanation on bolster which implies that all gear that's considered under par is brought up to the same stats. However I've seen a bunch of references to having 63 gear because it straddles just below the line of getting full expertise. Does having 63s give me an advantage over having 40s, or for that case having nothing at all (i.e., naked)? If they are better is it because they go over what the bolster would give you in regular stats while still giving full expertise, or is it some crazy formula that just results in it being better?

 

In short, for a particular piece, say gloves. All three modification can't exceed a total item rating of 459. So 63/63/63=450 thereby gets full EXP. You can use that total to adjust pieces to get as close as possible without losing EXP. So a 69/63/61 combo yields 458 item rating, and no lost in EXP due to bolster.

 

As for level 40s, they also get full EXP and your main and HP are also increased, but the secondary stats like power defense, etc are static. This means that you get better ratings on those stats if you use 63 instead of 40s. My stance is that since only mods, and enhancements carry secondary stats, having just tier on those and a lower tier on the armoring is slightly more favorable. The only exceptions are MH/ OH, where force/tech power and weapon damage, which you move this notion to hilts/barrels..

 

As for naked, its a similar nerf compared to raid gear because it was doing some interesting thing before they patched it...

 

In a side note, I am glad you are willing to drop the whole partisan stance on PVP v PvE to learn some easy things to help my and your cause.

 

Cheers!

Edited January 29, 2014 by L-RANDLE

[MillionsKNives]

In short, for a particular piece, say gloves. All three modification can't exceed a total item rating of 459. So 63/63/63=450 thereby gets full EXP. You cans use that total to adjust pieces to get as close as possible without losing EXP. So a 69/63/61 combo yields 458 item rating, and no lost in EXP due to bolster.

 

As for level 40s, they also get full EXP and your main and HP are also increased, but the secondary stats like power defense, etc are static. This means that you get better ratings on those stats if you use 63 instead of 40s. My stance is that since only mods, and enhancements carry secondary stats, having just tier on those and a lower tier on the armoring is slightly more favorable. The only exceptions are MH/ OH, where force/tech power and weapon damage gilts this notion to hilts/barrels..

 

As for naked, its a similar nerf compared to raid gear because it was doing some interesting thing before they patched it...

 

In a side note, I am glad you are willing to drop the whole partisan stance on PVP v PvE to learn some easy things to help my and your cause.

 

Cheers!

 

Thanks again.

 

As far as my stance, my opinion hasn't much changed. I'm still not fond of the grind I would have to go through to grind and maintain a PVP set. However, I was not aware of the handicap that end-game gear imposes (which I'm also not fond of, it should reverse-bolster the stats instead of punishing its use, or make it more obvious). And if the current system can allow me to keep one set without grind (acquiring that level gear isn't difficult) to compete then that works for me and my occasional participation.

[L-RANDLE]

Randle, I like to tank in pvp. Could you please explain to my how bolster works with tank stats, or if it works at all. I have been led to believe that bolster has no effect on defense/shield/absorb.

My last post somewhats digs on this, but more specifically for tanks, if I were gearing using PvE gear I would roll like a 61/69/63 on non weapon slots to maximize those secondary stats. Bolster will give you main and HP for the 61 armoring slot, I would also use crafted 53/54 purples for ears and implants as stat diversity of more defensive stats are more favorable than more HP/main that crafted blues will give you...

Edited January 29, 2014 by L-RANDLE

[L-RANDLE]

Thanks again.

 

As far as my stance, my opinion hasn't much changed. I'm still not fond of the grind I would have to go through to grind and maintain a PVP set. However, I was not aware of the handicap that end-game gear imposes (which I'm also not fond of, it should reverse-bolster the stats instead of punishing its use, or make it more obvious). And if the current system can allow me to keep one set without grind (acquiring that level gear isn't difficult) to compete then that works for me and my occasional participation.

 

I agree. One of the things is that for PvP focused players, you have to raid to get your BiS MH/OH in the current system, so we feel your pain.

[morfius]

I have seen full 72/78 gear in WZs and you only get about 800-1000 EXP. The increase in main stat is around 1000-1500 iirc. This means you are trading 30% damage boost for and additional 300 in attack rating. So in my case my scream is 2998*1.60=4796. If I wore 72/78 , 3298*1.30=4287. That's not favorable. There is no gear tier that exist that can outpaced EXP. Maybe for tanks since raw HP could be a suitable replacement for EXP mitigation, but def not for healers and damage dealers..

 

If 72/78 n WZ get 800-1000 expertise that mean Gree shelf is a mess - same VG from posts above in PvE gear was getting 172 expertise (all mods/enhancements comm 78s, 72 barrel, 78s non bonus armorings, 69/72/72/72 set bonus armorings, 2 UW shi/def implants, 2 arcanian def relics proc/clicky, shi/def augments to balance stats).

What (on top of flagging exploits on PvE servers and whole events design) would mean BW intentionally or not promote ganking/griefing mentality, not just PvE/PvP play ... ouch.

We need better explanation from them, otherwise community will continue to eat itself over all that mess with BiS PvP/PvE items got from other tier, flag exploits, expertise on OW & so on.

There are already purposed solution to flagging - queue for WZ and drop when start to clear flag... witch will be on same par annoying to PvPers as unintentional/exploited flagging and griefing is for PvEers.

 

What a mess...

 

Let return to stats thought ... tanking stats, 66s and bolster on same shelf compared to PvE gear drop 5/10/7% def/shi/abs from augments, mods and enhancements (not going to burn at least 14 kits and bind 14 augments just to make a test), armorings are less affected because armor rating seems to be bolstered (that I have to check again).

I have to do some calculations but on first thought my crafted 66 chest (58 shi / 37 abs / 33 def) have 4 points more over secondary stats than commendation 69 one (67 shi / 57 abs) and to have properly distributed stats both ways (61/69/63)/(66/66/66) will need augmentations.

61/69/63 on check lose 20 points secondary stats compared to 66/66/66 (69 mod has 10 more but 63 enhancement has 20 less) so BiS at first look is crafted blue 66 (except set bonuses that may be added via 4 63 armorings).

 

All this raise next question - how exactly defense, absorb and shield work in PvP?

 

New crafting opportunity maybe - to make entrance PvP ready sets ?!?

Edited January 29, 2014 by morfius

[Technohic]

L has been working overtime on this stuff. lol Bioware needs to start paying him on salary at this rate. Not just here either. He's also doing the easy money thread.

[L-RANDLE]

Morf,

Shield/Absorb has a chance to work on non-critical attacks and is more viable than Defense. The issue with Defense on gear is that it can maybe give you a 15% boost, but it only rolls against Accuracy. In PvP, almost every attack is a "special attack", thereby Accuracy ratings are in the 105% range. Even if you got 15% Defense from gear, you would still get hit 90% of the time. That difference is moot compared to Accuracy debuffs and Defense talents tanks have, so stacking shield/absorb is more favorable.

 

One thing though, PVP is littered with classes that have autocrit talents in addition to standard crit ratings, which bypass shield/Absorb entirely. While I would carry those, in PvP, I would favor END heavy ones in whatever PvE loadout I chose.

 

P.S. 66/66/66 will nerf your EXP, and I don't know if the HP is worth the EXP loss, plus healers will have a hard time keeping you up.

 

Tech,

 

Thanks man! I owe it to my newborn(mellowing out) and GeorgeMatteson, for his forum sig that reminds me that WE can make PVP better, regardless of the design philo and bugs BW gives us. If we want to move forward as a community, let's drop the flame, find out who the real adults are in the room (this includes you too Devs and Mods, if you are listening), and share/fix.

 

It's makes everyone's SWTOR life easier...

[funkiestj]

Morf,

Shield/Absorb has a chance to work on non-critical attacks and is more viable than Defense. The issue with Defense on gear is that it can maybe give you a 15% boost, but it only rolls against Accuracy. In PvP, almost every attack is a "special attack", thereby Accuracy ratings are in the 105% range. Even if you got 15% Defense from gear, you would still get hit 90% of the time. That difference is moot compared to Accuracy debuffs and Defense talents tanks have, so stacking shield/absorb is more favorable.

 

Also, defense is avoidance for melee/ranged only. A recent change to shield mechanics is a shield gets a roll against all kinectic/energy damage attacks (that are not crits). E.g. defense does not (and never has) helped you avoid that sage throwing a big rock at you (project: force attack, kinetic damage). The new shield mechanics allow this attack to be shielded.

 

Resistance is avoidance for force/tech attacks. There is no gear that gives resistance. Only defensive cooldowns (e.g. shadow - resilience) give you (temporary) resilience.

 

Before this change to shield mechanics stacking shield or absorbed for PvP tanking was frowned upon because it only applied to melee/ranged (i.e. the same thing the defense stat applies to) so force/tech heavy DPS (sages, DOT tree smugglers and many middle tree smuggler attacks) bypasses your shield. Now only internal/elemental bypasses shield (typically DOTs).

[morfius]

Morf,

Shield/Absorb has a chance to work on non-critical attacks and is more viable than Defense. The issue with Defense on gear is that it can maybe give you a 15% boost, but it only rolls against Accuracy. In PvP, almost every attack is a "special attack", thereby Accuracy ratings are in the 105% range. Even if you got 15% Defense from gear, you would still get hit 90% of the time. That difference is moot compared to Accuracy debuffs and Defense talents tanks have, so stacking shield/absorb is more favorable.

 

One thing though, PVP is littered with classes that have autocrit talents in addition to standard crit ratings, which bypass shield/Absorb entirely. While I would carry those, in PvP, I would favor END heavy ones in whatever PvE loadout I chose.

 

P.S. 66/66/66 will nerf your EXP, and I don't know if the HP is worth the EXP loss, plus healers will have a hard time keeping you up.

 

Tech,

 

Thanks man! I owe it to my newborn(mellowing out) and GeorgeMatteson, for his forum sig that reminds me that WE can make PVP better, regardless of the design philo and bugs BW gives us. If we want to move forward as a community, let's drop the flame, find out who the real adults are in the room (this includes you too Devs and Mods, if you are listening), and share/fix.

 

It's makes everyone's SWTOR life easier...

 

First congratulations and have nice time with newborn and family

 

Blue 66 I speak for, gave same EXP as level 45 or 52 greens on Gree shelf... and are still better than 69/61 on tanking stats even I trow defense out and swap mods for absorption ones.

Yet I could go near 20% defense with augments - 10 - 15% direct damage reduction (if added on top of CDs would count nice) ... especially if it works against auto crits.

Are def / shi / abs working against guard transferred damage also?

PvP tanking goes primary for end + power than shi/def/abs + power augments or main stat + endurance?

[Technohic]

Morf,

Shield/Absorb has a chance to work on non-critical attacks and is more viable than Defense. The issue with Defense on gear is that it can maybe give you a 15% boost, but it only rolls against Accuracy. In PvP, almost every attack is a "special attack", thereby Accuracy ratings are in the 105% range. Even if you got 15% Defense from gear, you would still get hit 90% of the time. That difference is moot compared to Accuracy debuffs and Defense talents tanks have, so stacking shield/absorb is more favorable.

 

One thing though, PVP is littered with classes that have autocrit talents in addition to standard crit ratings, which bypass shield/Absorb entirely. While I would carry those, in PvP, I would favor END heavy ones in whatever PvE loadout I chose.

 

P.S. 66/66/66 will nerf your EXP, and I don't know if the HP is worth the EXP loss, plus healers will have a hard time keeping you up.

 

Tech,

 

Thanks man! I owe it to my newborn(mellowing out) and GeorgeMatteson, for his forum sig that reminds me that WE can make PVP better, regardless of the design philo and bugs BW gives us. If we want to move forward as a community, let's drop the flame, find out who the real adults are in the room (this includes you too Devs and Mods, if you are listening), and share/fix.

 

It's makes everyone's SWTOR life easier...

 

Congrats on the baby! First one?

[morfius]

Also, defense is avoidance for melee/ranged only. A recent change to shield mechanics is a shield gets a roll against all kinectic/energy damage attacks (that are not crits). E.g. defense does not (and never has) helped you avoid that sage throwing a big rock at you (project: force attack, kinetic damage). The new shield mechanics allow this attack to be shielded.

 

Resistance is avoidance for force/tech attacks. There is no gear that gives resistance. Only defensive cooldowns (e.g. shadow - resilience) give you (temporary) resilience.

 

Before this change to shield mechanics stacking shield or absorbed for PvP tanking was frowned upon because it only applied to melee/ranged (i.e. the same thing the defense stat applies to) so force/tech heavy DPS (sages, DOT tree smugglers and many middle tree smuggler attacks) bypasses your shield. Now only internal/elemental bypasses shield (typically DOTs).

 

So it seems def is out of the window... will have to compare blue 66 mods/enhancements over shi / abs with 69/61 - but yet I think 66 will still give more DR in total.

[L-RANDLE]

Congrats on the baby! First one?

 

#2.

Two boys.... Thank "Yoda"!

[Aetideus]

I have seen full 72/78 gear in WZs and you only get about 800-1000 EXP. The increase in main stat is around 1000-1500 iirc. This means you are trading 30% damage boost for and additional 300 in attack rating. So in my case my scream is 2998*1.60=4796. If I wore 72/78 , 3298*1.30=4287. That's not favorable. There is no gear tier that exist that can outpaced EXP. Maybe for tanks since raw HP could be a suitable replacement for EXP mitigation, but def not for healers and damage dealers..

 

The maximum I ve got with 72 63 58 MH/ OH is 1956. The bonus is almost as Obroan.

Regarding tank, the added endurance is insignificant compared to the loss of dr (and dps for arenas). Endurance is the main stat for pvp with shield/absorb. The full exp combinations of 69/66 lose both in bolstered endurance and mitigation stats to Obroan. Ear- implants depend on the existence of +9 skill. Veracity 54 is good choice on absence. Overall full Obroan is the best.

Graz!

Edited January 30, 2014 by Aetideus

[L-RANDLE]

The maximum I ve got with 72 63 58 MH/ OH is 1956. The bonus is almost as Obroan.

Regarding tank, the added endurance is insignificant compared to the loss of dr (and dps for arenas). Endurance is the main stat for pvp with shield/absorb. The full exp combinations of 69/66 lose both in bolstered endurance and mitigation stats to Obroan. Ear- implants depend on the existence of +9 skill. Veracity 54 is good choice on absence. Overall full Obroan is the best.

Graz!

 

Yeah, I am still a bit fuzzy on PvP tanking because of all these issues, and haven't played my tank in quite some time. I would say, basically, you should gear to have the highest Effective HP(HP*EXP Damage reduction). If that means carrying full EXP, then that's the ticket. In the case of PvE/Noobs (again I say that with <3) players, while Obroan is still "better", gear for for END>Shield/Absorb, especially considering the diminish return on Shield/Absorb ratings, and their ineffectiveness in certain situations in the PvP arena..

 

 

Thanks for the input and the gratz...

[Aetideus]

Yeah, I am still a bit fuzzy on PvP tanking because of all these issues, and haven't played my tank in quite some time. I would say, basically, you should gear to have the highest Effective HP(HP*EXP Damage reduction). If that means carrying full EXP, then that's the ticket. In the case of PvE/Noobs (again I say that with <3) players, while Obroan is still "better", gear for for END>Shield/Absorb, especially considering the diminish return on Shield/Absorb ratings, and their ineffectiveness in certain situations in the PvP arena..

 

 

Thanks for the input and the gratz...

 

I do not think that hp * exp dr is correct as bonus dmg * exp dmg is. DR is always more important than endurance in pvp, due to autocrits and mainly smash. Anni and RNG lightning and carnage autocrit.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Aetideus

[L-RANDLE]

I do not think that hp * exp dr is correct as bonus dmg * exp dmg is. DR is always more important than endurance in pvp, due to autocrits and mainly smash. Some other autocrits are white damage that is defd. DR matters for anni and RNG lightning and carnage autocrit attacks also.

 

Its been a subject of much debate in PvP, but since shield/absorb aren't a part of the equations against crit attacks, I think carrying full EXP +stacking END heavy stuff over Shield/Absorb heavy stuff would be the way to go wouldn't it, especially since Shield is a "chance"(thereby even a non-crit attack could get through) and HP is static?

 

What is the Shield chance Obroan provides?

[Aetideus]

Its been a subject of much debate in PvP, but since shield/absorb aren't a part of the equations against crit attacks, I think carrying full EXP +stacking END heavy stuff over Shield/Absorb heavy stuff would be the way to go wouldn't it, especially since Shield is a "chance"(thereby even a non-crit attack could get through) and HP is static?

 

What is the Shield chance Obroan provides?

 

Full Obroan is ~35 for Vang/ PT.

That is why flat reduction is more important than hp (e>s>a).

Edited January 30, 2014 by Aetideus

[Technohic]

Maybe this was answered in here, but I noticed in the CM that there are pistols with what look to be +51 tech power. I was wondering where that would fit compared to the +41 power with bolster. Maybe I will pick one up and try.

[georgemattson]

Thanks man! I owe it to my newborn(mellowing out) and GeorgeMatteson, for his forum sig that reminds me that WE can make PVP better, regardless of the design philo and bugs BW gives us. If we want to move forward as a community, let's drop the flame, find out who the real adults are in the room (this includes you too Devs and Mods, if you are listening), and share/fix.

 

It's makes everyone's SWTOR life easier...

 

No, thank you, sir. Without your posts (and those of many others here), I never would have stuck with PvP long enough to enjoy it. You and the others bring a lot of people into the community, I think.

[morfius]

Maybe this was answered in here, but I noticed in the CM that there are pistols with what look to be +51 tech power. I was wondering where that would fit compared to the +41 power with bolster. Maybe I will pick one up and try.

 

Tech power is related to weapon barrel level, they have some base one listed but as far as I remember never seen it added above non CM one with same level barrel.

Low level (bellow 20) moddable ones are not cheap but will check what will happen on level 11 character with CM and non CM empty shells and same shells with equivalent barrels/hilts.

If result on stat page are same I suppose they will be bolstered to same level.

Crystals are other issue ... level 10 ones with level 50 plus stats are on the edge of P2W.

Edited January 31, 2014 by morfius