How to Become a Contender: Supplemental(Bolster, PvP Gear, and You)

[jboehm]

Here is another combo for MH/OH. This is better than Obroan, but not sure how it compares to the 69/63/61.

 

With this, however, you don't need to pay through the nose, or do Ops. Just HM FPs for basic comms and a Artificer..

 

66 purple hilt, 69 purple power Heavy mod., 58 power Heavy Enhancement

 

T-Assassin did post a comparison of the stats on a 69, 63, 61 setup vs. a 69, 66, 58 setup:

 

here's the math, using main stat, power, and surge.

 

66mod - (57Aim 43End 48Pwr) 58Enh - (28End 32Pwr 51Sur) = 57Aim 71End 80Pwr 51Sur

63mod - (56Aim 34End 44Pwr) 61Enh - (27End 41Pwr 57Sur) = 56Aim 61End 85Pwr 57Sur

 

totals:

69/66/58 = 138Aim 138End 80Pwr 51Sur (+1Aim +10End -5Pwr -6Sur)

69/63/61 = 137Aim 128End 85Pwr 57Sur (-1Aim -10End +5Pwr +6Sur)

 

If you have Dread Forge 63 Mods, BiS is 69/63/61...If not, 69/66/58 is next BiS.

 

From just looking at the stats outside of a wz, it appears 69, 63, 61 should come out on top. Still, I'd like to see or hear from someone who's compared how 69, 63, 61 vs. 69, 66, 58 affect bonus damage/healing in a warzone under actual bolster conditions, because if there's one thing that's perfectly clear, it's that bolster has a habit of working in unexpected ways.

 

For sure though, if you don't have old War Hero/Elite War Hero gear (61's/63's), it would be easier to get a hold of 66's and 58's than to run some of those old operations for the 61's and 63's. But a lot of pvp'ers do already have their old min/maxed elite/war hero gear in their bank, and it's easy to plug that stuff in.

 

It still blows my mind how the devs have imposed a system where, rather than just being able to say min/maxed Obroan is BiS for PvP, we're left with this cluster**** of having to fumble around with weird combinations of old pve gear in the hope of finding what is actually BiS for PvP under a mysterious bolster system that even they (devs) may not fully understand.

[L-RANDLE]

T-Assassin did post a comparison of the stats on a 69, 63, 61 setup vs. a 69, 66, 58 setup:

 

 

 

From just looking at the stats outside of a wz, it appears 69, 63, 61 should come out on top. Still, I'd like to see or hear from someone who's compared how 69, 63, 61 vs. 69, 66, 58 affect bonus damage/healing in a warzone under actual bolster conditions, because if there's one thing that's perfectly clear, it's that bolster has a habit of working in unexpected ways.

 

For sure though, if you don't have old War Hero/Elite War Hero gear (61's/63's), it would be easier to get a hold of 66's and 58's than to run some of those old operations for the 61's and 63's. But a lot of pvp'ers do already have their old min/maxed elite/war hero gear in their bank, and it's easy to plug that stuff in.

 

It still blows my mind how the devs have imposed a system where, rather than just being able to say min/maxed Obroan is BiS for PvP, we're left with this cluster**** of having to fumble around with weird combinations of old pve gear in the hope of finding what is actually BiS for PvP under a mysterious bolster system that even they (devs) may not fully understand.

 

Sorry I missed it. , but what I can say is after I did this for both MH and OH, my Force Scream rating went from 2998 to 3143 while in WZs...

 

Facepalm BW, Facepalm.. Can I have ny ranked comms back?

[Evuo]

69,63,61 weapon (first image) vs. 66,69,58 weapon (second image)

http://imgur.com/5BigNJw,lD1zKce#0

http://imgur.com/5BigNJw,lD1zKce#1

 

0.3 bonus damage and 6 surge vs 8 endurance

 

http://imgur.com/0fE9RJg (69,66,58)

 

69,63,61 weapon compared to a 69,66,58 weapon

 

-1 bonus damage -6 surge vs 10 endurance

Edited December 22, 2013 by Evuo

[Mubrak]

69,63,61 weapon (first image) vs. 66,69,58 weapon (second image)

http://imgur.com/5BigNJw,lD1zKce#0

http://imgur.com/5BigNJw,lD1zKce#1

 

0.3 bonus damage and 8 endurance in favor of the 69,63,61

 

Hm... 66,69,58 is much easier to get though, as mainhand 69 need elite coms and 63 mods need operations.

 

And they're still better than Obroan?

Edited December 21, 2013 by Mubrak

[Wainamoinen]

I've just maxed out at 2750 warzone thingies,

 

Small aside: that's not maxed out.

 

You can convert normal comms to ranked comms at the vendor by the PvP mission terminal on fleet, once you hit valour 40 (which you can't get until level 40), at a ratio of 3:1.

 

So you should try to have your ranked wz comms maxed (4500 from memory = 13500 more normal comms), not just normal wz comms.

 

Then there's vendor weapon swapping/banking, but shan't go on as this thread isn't about that.

___________________________

 

ON TOPIC: It definitely used to be the case that items bolstered differently (typically, worse) if you entered a warzone with a set of mods, compared with how it bolstered if you swapped them in after entering the warzone. This was to cripple the initial empty-slot bolster abuse.

 

Has it been checked that this is no longer operating? Or have people equipped the mods they want to check before entering a PvP area each time?

 

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just that I'd like to be sure this issue that has tripped up countless people talking about Bolster before, has been accounted for: is it no longer happening, or have the stats been taken only from characters that entered the PvP area with those mods?

 

Props to OP on his effort and lots of good advice there.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[jmsutton]

It still blows my mind how the devs have imposed a system where, rather than just being able to say min/maxed Obroan is BiS for PvP, we're left with this cluster**** of having to fumble around with weird combinations of old pve gear in the hope of finding what is actually BiS for PvP under a mysterious bolster system that even they (devs) may not fully understand.

 

You're talking about a difference of 80 hitpoints and .3 bonus damage in some of the cases referenced. At most, we're talking 250 HP and 10 bonus damage. I think maybe 1 in 100,000 fights will that difference actually matter to the outcome at all. Unless you think that you and the other people you're fighting have the EXACT SAME identical skill level to within .001% of each other, than it literally doesn't matter, it's not changing the fight.

[L-RANDLE]

You're talking about a difference of 80 hitpoints and .3 bonus damage in some of the cases referenced. At most, we're talking 250 HP and 10 bonus damage. I think maybe 1 in 100,000 fights will that difference actually matter to the outcome at all. Unless you think that you and the other people you're fighting have the EXACT SAME identical skill level to within .001% of each other, than it literally doesn't matter, it's not changing the fight.

This is somewhat the point of the thread. It not as gamechanging as some people thought. Your class, spec, augments, and skill/knowledge level have more to do with PvP outcomes.

 

But remember. Its not about the difference in stats alone. While I want this thread to stay away from the opinionated stances concerning bolster, the fundemental truth about bolster is that it marginalize PvP gear and there are no real outlets for comms.

[Kiyoko-]

Thank you very much for this thread, and the time it took to find and present all this info!

 

I'm a returning type and leveled a new character through only PVP and have had a blast! But this thread is dismaying. Things are much more complicated than I thought. I am close to 55 and have saved up my comms. I was going to simply buy Conqueror first, and then eventually Obroan. Similar to War Hero -> EWH like in the past. And my priority purchase was going to be my MH weapon and OH weapon, for damage. Now I'm not quite sure what to do.

 

I only really PVP. I have no knowledge of group PVE, and I kind of dread doing it. I don't know where to get these 67 63 etc. things that are being talked about. In fact this thread is the first time I've encountered terms like that.

 

So a couple questions please:

 

1. MH and OH weapons are always being mentioned in this thread as exceptions: the things you should *not* even start out using PVP gear for. So if not PVP gear, what should be used for weapons please? I'm guessing it is some sort of end-game raid PVE gear, and weapons are really important

 

2. If you would rather play a different game than do group PVE things, is there any hope? Should I just settle for Conquerors, or is there some sort of solo or GTN PVE gear that is better than Conq?

 

I am sorry if these things seem obvious and already stated in the thread. I think when you guys say something like "get the purple 67 or the blue 65" that is super obvious what it means to you and where you go to get it, but it's less clear to dumb people like me, and I think my lack of PVE experience and terms is not helping.

 

Thank you very much for any more help!

[Mubrak]

1. MH and OH weapons are always being mentioned in this thread as exceptions: the things you should *not* even start out using PVP gear for. So if not PVP gear, what should be used for weapons please? I'm guessing it is some sort of end-game raid PVE gear, and weapons are really important !

 

Actually it's a combination of entry-level 55 PVE gear. Item modifications have two "levels" the one in the mods name like "xxx barrel 30" and the one displayed in the weapon's tooltip (69 in this case).

 

58 are the mod-level 25 modifications that can be bought with planetary commendations at the Makeb vendor

61 (26) are used in old level 50 endgame gear that can be bought with classic commendations

63 (27) is old level 50 operations gear, you need operations tokens to buy them.

66 (28) drops frequently on the planets for level 51+ and is quite cheap in the GTM

69 (30) can be bought with basic commendations (mainhand needs Elite commendations, though)

 

65 (28X) is Conqueror

67 (29X) is Obroan

 

The preferable combinations are 69+63+61 or 69+66+58 or even 66+69+58. To get a 63 mod you need to do an old level 50 Operation, everything else is easy to get by doing dailies. Only the 69(30) hilts and mainhand barrels are a problem, as you need about 300 elite commendations to buy a mainhand weapon with these (of which you can make only 39 per week when you want to avoid hard mode flashpoints as well), so it's faster and easier to buy them from a crafter. So to get that BiS you need 1-2 weeks of doing dailies and pay about 500k for the mainhand hilt/barrel.

 

In warzones bolster gives PVE equip the full expertise as long as the sum of the mod ratings is 193 or less. The higher base damage or armor are balanced by the lower mod stats, so you would end up being similar or a bit worse than with conqueror (which is 65+65+65=195). The intention is to balance the gear advantage of endgame PVE players without punishing the PVP players that just entered the level 55 tier.

 

For armor it works. Someone with entry level PVE gear has 2018 expertise and a bit worse stats than someone with conqueror gear. For weapons it doesn't because the color crystal of a PVP weapon is solely used for expertise while the PVE weapon still gets the full 191 expertise but has a crystal that adds 41 power. With the higher base damage and tech/force power of a 69 hilt / barrel and the stat-bolster for having a lower sum than Conqueror you end up with better stats. Not by much, but every bit counts.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Mubrak

[Kiyoko-]

Oh wow that helps a lot! I'm going to have to do some thinking; just two levels to go.

 

Thank you for spelling it out and all. I do appreciate the knowledge and time it took to type that all out just to help someone else out!

[Tankqull]

another weapon option wich is extreamly easily acquired is a 66/66/61 composition. all parts are either craftable or can be achieved by doing black hole wich is recommended anyway to obtain money as a pvpler ...

[L-RANDLE]

Oh wow that helps a lot! I'm going to have to do some thinking; just two levels to go.

 

Thank you for spelling it out and all. I do appreciate the knowledge and time it took to type that all out just to help someone else out!

 

Keep in mind too that all those PvE items can be crafted. Crafted purple 58 mods are cheap. Hell, ilI give them away if ur on PoT5, as long as I have the mats. I guess at this point I'm am going to give a bit more advice:

 

If you like this game/PvP enough, it is very beneficial to have a Biochem/Cyber/Artifice. Bio is almost a must anyway, but with the advent if bolster, having those three (and some patience)enables you skip the hamster wheel that is PvP gearing.

 

Bolster isn't going away, the 1000lbs elephant in the room is this:

As bolster is adjusted for better PvE/PvP gear, all gear "below" the cutoff will be adjusted as well. While bolster exist we will remain in this perpetual state of PvP gear not having relevance in the grand scheme. I would really like to see BW add more options to convert PvP comms to other in game comms, put bolster in OW, and eliminate PvP gear all together..

[arcadeboredom]

I started trading PVP weapons (the 900 comm blue ones) at level 30. when I hit 55, I had enough weapons to get full obroan fully min maxed with a bit left over. That was 63 weapons.

 

Sorry but that does this mean? Can you or someone elaborate?

[Kiyoko-]

Hmm thank you... after thinking I have a couple more questions please:

 

I have read in the thread that you must not mix PVP and PVE mods in the same piece of gear. But can you mix PVP and PVE gear on the same person? Like a PVE weapon and a PVP relic and chest piece. I think you can mix this way, but at this point I don't trust myself and want to make sure please, because from L-RANDLE's post it sounds like PVP gear should be avoided completely.

 

On the weapon again, if it should be 69+63+61 or some equivalent combination, that is the barrel+mod+enhancement. So the color crystal does not factor into that calculation, and can be whatever, so long as it does not have expertise?

 

The best (well only) barrel on my humble server's GTN right now are 68s which seem prohibitively expensive, but if I understand things right could hopefully stand in for a 69 and be just slightly worse (whereas if it were say a 70, that would not be ok because it would trigger the DR on expertise).

 

This thread has been such a changer for me. It's changed my plans completely; I'd have really bumbled into things!

[Mubrak]

Sorry but that does this mean? Can you or someone elaborate?

 

Before you hit the cap, use your warzone comms to buy lowbie PVP weapons. You can refund them within 2 hours of online time with that char; shortly before they become permanently bound, buy new ones and sell the old ones. So you can hoard tons of commendations, although it's a bit tedious and quite impractical when you aren't just playing PVP with that char.

 

This also works with planetary commendations: When you're half way to the next odd level and close to the 100 cap, buy some stuff from the local commendations vendor, this way you have more than 100 coms available once you've leveled up..

[Mubrak]

Hmm thank you... after thinking I have a couple more questions please:

 

I have read in the thread that you must not mix PVP and PVE mods in the same piece of gear. But can you mix PVP and PVE gear on the same person? Like a PVE weapon and a PVP relic and chest piece. I think you can mix this way, but at this point I don't trust myself and want to make sure please, because from L-RANDLE's post it sounds like PVP gear should be avoided completely.

 

To sumarize L-RANDLE's great OP:

 

PvE combinations for MH/OH are BiS for PvP.

Obroan is BiS for PvP on non-weapon, modifiable pieces.

Obroan is BiS for PvP on non-weapon, non-modifiable pieces.

 

Bolster gives every piece of equipment some expertise unless it already has expertise. Equipment that has a higher rating-sum than 193 gets less expertise to make up for the better PVE stats. Equipment that already has Expertise gets none from bolster, so replace one piece of equipment after the other but don't buy those separate mods and enhancements and mix them with your PVE armoring / barrel / hilt.

 

For a PVP player leveling into the level 55 tier it should come quite naturally, the only surprise here is that mainhand / offhand pvp gear shouldn't be your first purchase, if you only do warzones and no world-PVP on a PVP server or during the Gree event (which gives less bolster than warzones), you don't need those PVP weapons at all.

 

The real trouble starts when a PVE player in endgame equip gets bored with operations and gives PVP a try. Even with 72 equip they get just about 1500-1600 expertise from bolster, and everyone else does 15% more damage and has 10% more damage resistance. The solution is everything but obvious: Don't stick it out until you can buy PVP equip, fall back to the equipment you had when you leveled up to 55, maybe your companions have it now, or you can buy this stuff cheap at the classic vendors, or the GTM. You will fare much better (and get much less flames) than with your endgame stuff.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Mubrak

[Ottoattack]

A question. Does the 69+66+58 format for PvE modable non-weapon gear provide full expertise? I was considering using half PvE set for my sorc and was not sure if that would work or not. I know it does on MH and OH weapons.

[L-RANDLE]

A question. Does the 69+66+58 format for PvE modable non-weapon gear provide full expertise? I was considering using half PvE set for my sorc and was not sure if that would work or not. I know it does on MH and OH weapons.

 

It does give full EXP, but the attack rating is slightly lower than Obroan. I have been doing more observations and I think I might have one for these items that could be BiS... I know..... facepalm......

 

Stay tuned..

[Ariak-]

It does give full EXP, but the attack rating is slightly lower than Obroan. I have been doing more observations and I think I might have one for these items that could be BiS... I know..... facepalm......

 

Stay tuned..

 

Any update Randle?

[L-RANDLE]

Any update Randle?

 

Sorry, still working on it.. I should have more screens and an updated OP tonight...

[ManiacDavis]

Is there any indication in the code of what the actual algorithmic code is? It would make all these observations a lot easier if we knew this since someone could just create a basic program where you can input gear data and get the bolstered stats.

[L-RANDLE]

Is there any indication in the code of what the actual algorithmic code is? It would make all these observations a lot easier if we knew this since someone could just create a basic program where you can input gear data and get the bolstered stats.

 

Lol yeah... That would help, but I think BW is being coy with it because the issues that it creates. Namely, PvP gear being somehwhat irrelevant outside if OW.. Even with that, max geared toons can smoke other toons on various planets that don't have PvP gear. I much rather bolster existed in all OW and traditional PvP gear were eliminated.

 

I wish they would just come clean with it.

Edited December 27, 2013 by L-RANDLE

[L-RANDLE]

Any update Randle?

 

Updated.. See reserved spot...

[L-RANDLE]

We also have more responses to this thread than the main contender thread...(Sorry Maniac :-)) but I think now, I will ask them myself.

 

 

MODS, CAN I GET THIS THREAD STICKIED PLZ!!!?

[ironhydra]

This is some confusing stuff for a returning pvp leveling player idk what to do now lol... I'd rather just focus on pvp gear, I dont like PVE.

 

Supposedly my healing operative should be using PVE gear for PVP what is this?

 

How the hell am I suppose to get money to buy all that crap?

 

Also regarding:

I started trading PVP weapons (the 900 comm blue ones) at level 30. when I hit 55, I had enough weapons to get full obroan fully min maxed with a bit left over. That was 63 weapons.

 

What do you get by collecting these items? Do you just sell them later for comms?

Edited December 28, 2013 by ironhydra