Bring back self-heals

[DarthSpekulatius]

Okey...just try and go in some battle 7 vs 7 as tank must do. You will be flying around field until death bcs of all those pushes. It's AOEs, wneh somebody tries to capture object, merk uses push, and everybody fly away including tank which tried to cast something for 3s

 

Btw merks and commandos have best pushes when talented - can use very often and very hard, on hutball for example, he pushes u down, when u run close up, same merk has push ready to repeat

 

and the additional armor you got as 2nd part of the tradeoff mitigated three times the amount of damage your heals would have given you congratulations.

[alexzk]

Yes, with all this "nice" tradeoffs shadow cannot go and get guarded node any more (well, lies - I still easy kill sniper guard if he don't use acid ). Those numbers are look perefect on paper, in reality 1 thunder blast missed incoming or affiction put on me breaks all those perfect numbers and tradeoffs before sork. (If you dont get it again - it is internal - no real resistance). Actually Tank shadow cant kill any more proper sork DD build.

 

So I'm agree to have all back - remove nice "armors" and put back healz from combat technique.

 

 

P.S. Ah yes, "harnesed shadows"...guys love to force speed away, so if you lucky (or had potency up for distance) you may try to finish cast

Edited January 6, 2014 by alexzk

[KeyboardNinja]

Yes, with all this "nice" tradeoffs shadow cannot go and get guarded node any more (well, lies - I still easy kill sniper guard if he don't use acid ). Those numbers are look perefect on paper, in reality 1 thunder blast missed incoming or affiction put on me breaks all those perfect numbers and tradeoffs before sork. (If you dont get it again - it is internal - no real resistance). Actually Tank shadow cant kill any more proper sork DD build.

 

So I'm agree to have all back - remove nice "armors" and put back healz from combat technique.

 

 

P.S. Ah yes, "harnesed shadows"...guys love to force speed away, so if you lucky (or had potency up for distance) you may try to finish cast

 

Shadow Protection gives you 4% additive damage reduction against both kinetic and internal damage. Thus, it reduces the damage you take from sorcs, lethality agents, power techs, and all the other traditional tank killing specs. And if you can't solo a sorc, you're doing something very wrong. With madness, blow resilience when they get their third dot up. Interrupt force lightning. With lightning, shroud TB and interrupt lightning strike. Save pull for when they knock you back and root you. Pop their bubble from 10 meters. If they blow their stun or knockback on your channel, you basically auto-win because they won't be able to keep you at range. Make sure you're talented into celerity. When either barriers, stealth and get behind them at 5-8 meters (unless you still have dots, then nvm), mez and heal when it breaks.

 

Also. If you keep your stacks up (not hard, especially in a duel), you only need the first tick for the refresh. The only way to avoid this first tick is to resist it, which is to say shroud or barrier. If someone is blowing a big cooldown on your TkT, you've won straight up. No knockback or stun can prevent that first tick unless they stun you before you start channeling, which does happen, but again…why would they?

 

Shadow Protection is an enormous buff, particularly in duels, since you don't need to ever finish a channel ever again. One tick is enough, very much unlike the old self heal.

Edited January 6, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[alexzk]

That's all theories which DOES NOT work in pvp.

 

Just met assasin full tank guarding the door with 39000 health. I have 33500. I killed him and took door having 23-21-2 build. Thats it. New full tank is bad for pvp.

 

P.S. and yes, I didnt allow to build/keep him this new protection...just in case.

Edited January 7, 2014 by alexzk

[slafko]

That's all theories which DOES NOT work in pvp.

 

I'd say "just ignore him" but his theories are one of the reasons the Shadows got screwed.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Nobody would go as far as purposely break all of his channel,

 

Dream on.

And, you have never experienced *several* players on one, haven't you ? They can overlap with breaking channels & casts, you know ...

 

Just met assasin full tank guarding the door with 39000 health. I have 33500. I killed him and took door having 23-21-2 build. Thats it. New full tank is bad for pvp.

 

To me this merely shows how overpowered Shadows Asssassins still are.

Edited January 7, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[alexzk]

[quote=AlrikFassbauer;7092517

To me this merely shows how overpowered Shadows Asssassins still are.

 

Do you think 1v1 guarder must always die ? Tell that for OP healerz.

 

I think 1vs1 tank must live forever (well, 1-2 minutes at least) or win. At least other 2 tanks do that except shadow.

 

 

1 more thing everybody forgot - heal is rewarded by medals, and "avoidance" is not. Not too important, but still a reason to measure ...

Edited January 7, 2014 by alexzk

[Altheran]

Dream on.

And, you have never experienced *several* players on one, haven't you ? They can overlap with breaking channels & casts, you know ...

 

One versus multiple players, obviously they'd do since you'd be their only matter in mind. And by the way, the only way they have to prevent you from channelling is CC, your are in-interruptible, so their ressource to maintain you unable to channel are limited and precious, but guess what you'd die before you'd try a second time if this is one vs several. But these guys are speaking about group vs group, and say that whatever the situation is, you can't channel a full Telekinetic Throw at all in PvP.

 

Ask yourself : you have a stun left, you have a DPS Knight on you, a Shadow channelling Telekintic Throw on you. You also see that Gunslinger casting happily on one of your mate, and that healer who is not full resolve yet. Sincerly, where is the Shadow on your priority list ?

 

Bottom list, isn't it ? And this situation, this is all the time in PvP.

 

So, simple deduction : is the statement that says a Shadow can channel a full Telekinetic Throw only once every 3 or 4 WZ, and sometimes can't ever do it, even credible ? If you are honest, the answer is no.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Altheran

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Balance. That's where the issue is.

 

Self-heals pose problems even above and beyond the spikiness issue. In fact, the most often cited issue with self-heals is not the spike issue but the problems with scaling. At low damage levels, self-heals are enormously more powerful than straight DR. This is why most 1v1 situations, dailies and some low-damage bosses have seemed harder on shadows after the DR change. We are quite literally worse in those situations than we used to be, because we used to be overpowered! Unfortunately, at high damage levels, self-heals lack of scaling becomes a bane rather than a boon, resulting in less survivability than straight DR.

 

Getting rid of self-heals allows bioware to balance the tanks in terms of relative survivability much more tightly than before, simply because they no longer have a tank where almost a quarter of their mitigation is radically underpowered on some content and overpowered on others. It wasn't just an "easy way out" or a bid to "appease the NiM raiding crowd", as is often claimed. As a change, it makes tremendous sense, and there's really no getting away from that.

 

The flaw in your suggestion lies in the assumption that the self-healing and the DR provided the same benefits, but in different ways. They didn't. They couldn't. And for those reasons, we can't just have a toggle which allows us to swap between the two modes of operation. I miss the self heals too on a subjective level, but there is simply no way that they can come back.

 

KBN,

 

Nobody other than min-maxers like yourself wanted the self heals gone. I completely swapped my Tank Sin from Tank to Deception DPS because of this change, it made Tank Sin so boring and made it's skill cap go through the damn roof! I will say, my tank sin was only 40 when i changed, so it wasent like i was full 78 min-max gear for Tank, but still! There is now NOTHING other than Stealth and the 5% healing ring that Tank Sins have over any other tank. If the unique self heals were added back in, i would CONSIDER making my sin a tank again. but right now Tank sin is so hard to play, i cant play it. the Self Heals were MUCH more forgiving, you didnt have to always keep thrashing for an Shock Proc. now, you have to litterally spam Thrash to get a proc, and that is boring to watch... I would also consider playing it again if the first tick of Force Lightning gave all 4 stacks, THAT would be much simpler too.

[alexzk]

oh...have u ever played pvp, mr. Holms ?

 

he will use PUSH if have 3 attacking him + force speed /roll to run away or force camo /restealth

 

any of those actions will break ur channeling...

 

channeling is impossible if target goes out of range/disappears/pushes you in air

 

That's my favorite to break channeling of full tanks:

1. force push, if cd or some sorks there need to be pushed...

2. run 15m away, pull tank close to me again

3. low slash works too ...

Edited January 7, 2014 by alexzk

[KeyboardNinja]

I'd say "just ignore him" but his theories are one of the reasons the Shadows got screwed.

 

They're not just theories. I have plenty of combat logs to back it up. Shadows are also not "screwed". You may feel that way, and it's your prerogative, but all of the empirical evidence is to the contrary.

 

Also, regarding PvP and the previous anecdote regarding killing a full tank spec with a hybrid build, you had a bad opponent. You cannot prevent a good shadow tank from keeping his stacks up when the fight opens from stealth (as it will if you're guarding and in any way competent). You can interrupt every channel and it won't matter since I only need one tick. You can blow shroud if you want to, but I'll just stealth out and refresh that way (it's also not a bad use of stealth). If they failed to keep their stacks up in full tank spec in a duel, they were a bad player. Also, if they had that much HP, they were either in full Obroan or (more likely) carrying a fair bit of PvE gear.

Edited January 7, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[alexzk]

They're not just theories. I have plenty of combat logs to back it up. Shadows are also not "screwed". You may feel that way, and it's your prerogative, but all of the empirical evidence is to the contrary.

 

So, is it game for androids? I mean, they can get perfect numbers easy, they're machines

 

Reason why ppl still buy Windows (which is true trash) is because it was more convenient than others atm.

 

Also...I lose most of fights too having 36-8-2, so does it mean, I'm good player with 23-21-2 (I won) and bad player when use 36-x-x ? I prefer to think it is bad build, and this returns us to Subject.

 

P.S. I have simple measure of proper gear/build - I do solo H4s. Currently I fail to do it having pre-2.5 36-x-x build, so it is failed update. Unplayable (don't get me wrong, I do that by all chars, even by sork

Edited January 7, 2014 by alexzk

[KeyboardNinja]

P.S. I have simple measure of proper gear/build - I do solo H4s. Currently I fail to do it having pre-2.5 36-x-x build, so it is failed update. Unplayable (don't get me wrong, I do that by all chars, even by sork

 

No offense, but that's an awful metric. Heroics have somewhat artificial damage profiles and a lot of diverse targets. The former will push you to gear in a way that is optimal for that Heroic, but very little else; the latter will disadvantage some classes severely (shadows due to Kinetic Ward charges) and advantage others (Guardians due to Courage and Riposte, Vanguards due to Energy Screen and Stockstrike). Also, it fails to take into account the problems of non-scaling mitigation mechanisms. I was the first (and I do mean first) to come out and say that the removal of the self heals would be a nerf for content like dailies and heroics. The damage levels are just too low in that content, meaning that the heals provide proportionally much more survivability than the DR can (even with perfect SP).

 

Measure tank gearing with math. It's easy, and it is very very accurate. Try out builds on bosses and in PvP to see which works better for you. As a point of fact, I haven't lost a single duel to a hybrid assassin, despite being full tank spec myself. Are they just all bad players? Maybe, but by your own logic, they're playing a bad spec. :-)

Edited January 7, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[alexzk]

Or you have hidden advantage, for example less ping. I saw shadow couple days ago which (2nd try, phase was used already) came close to me (33 m from object) mazed me by re-stealth, run back (33m!!) and took that pylon on AH. I can't repeat that ;/ i just need like 0.5s more at this distance.

 

So well, my point is - other "hybrid" or dps builds need more reaction than tank, that's why I prefer tanks, and still, right now hybrid is more comfortable.

 

Also so-called 'hybrids" rare using shields. They have all dps gear - just some stupid idea . It will not work against tank, because they lost full dps potent and didn't get tank advantage.

 

Math...okey, I had 100k self-heal on wz, now I have let's say 20k, so 80k difference. If I want to mitigate 80k...I should take 80k/0.06 = 1.333 KK of dmg, me only. Are u kidding ?

 

If wz does not have heals, avr. damadge will be 200k, so 8 ppl will do about 1.6kk total, If I had self heal - I had my 80k health back, but in case of mitigation.....

 

About "insagnificant heal", well, in such wz case (no heals) 100k of self means that team had 7.5 players instead 8.

 

And about "efficiency", before that, selfheal for +80k meant I added to team-pool 80k of health total, as you see now my char will never mitigate 80k (bcs nobody will focus me forever) so will never add this to pool, so it is less effective now.

Edited January 7, 2014 by alexzk

[THoK-Zeus]

A 6-7% increase in damage reduction is a 12% damage reduction.

 

An average of 200k damage per Player per warzone? You wanna tell us that your passive heal and medpacs heal you for 50% of a complete enemy dps deals in a warzone?!

[alexzk]

Yes I tell you, it was up-to 100k, 80k easy and pretty often. Actually sentinel can do 80k heal having 27 death Jug can do 87k having 4-5 death.

 

And I added about team health pool in my prev post, read what it means as I think.

Edited January 7, 2014 by alexzk

[THoK-Zeus]

Yes I tell you, it was up-to 100k, 80k easy and pretty often. Actually sentinel can do 80k heal having 27 death Jug can do 87k having 4-5 death.

 

And I added about team health pool in my prev post, read what it means as I think.

 

I didn't say your hp is wrong (although when you assume 80k solely coming from stance that is also wrong as proven already in this thread), i say your dps assumption is wrong cause 100k would be 50% of the damage output of a whole dps.

Edited January 7, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[alexzk]

Next best case could happen.

 

I do any skill, got combat tech heal (dont remember, I think it was 150 but lets say 100) so 100, got relict worked for 505 = 605. Got stunned for 4s. Next I do same, and got lucky for 605 again, so totally 1210 HP restored in 4.5 seconds.

 

okey...1210 / 0.06 = I need 20167 incoming dmg, lets say it is 1vs1. Can anybody do 20167 in 3 GCD to shielded tank with defence and armor? Looks like not. So during those 3 GCDs I was less effective.

[alexzk]

So well, as I said all above - it is possibly that now shadow is more effective in 16 ppl raid vs raidbosses. But as solo player or stealther into team in PVP shadow is less effective now.

 

So basically, next logical step is to remove stealth and make it upper talent into DD trees because tank don't really need it any more - can't use it for soloing effectively.

[THoK-Zeus]

Next best case could happen.

 

I do any skill, got combat tech heal (dont remember, I think it was 150 but lets say 100) so 100, got relict worked for 505 = 605. Got stunned for 4s. Next I do same, and got lucky for 605 again, so totally 1210 HP restored in 4.5 seconds.

 

okey...1210 / 0.06 = I need 20167 incoming dmg, lets say it is 1vs1. Can anybody do 20167 in 3 GCD to shielded tank with defence and armor? Looks like not. So during those 3 GCDs I was less effective.

 

The relic has a 20 second cooldown! It will just activate ones per 20 seconds at max (not every 4,5 seconds). And it's not 0,06 but 0,12:

Dark Protection + armor buff give you about 12% damage reduction.

Edited January 7, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[alexzk]

The relic has a 20 second cooldown! It will just activate ones per 20 seconds at max (not every 4,5 seconds). And it's not 0,06 but 0,12:

Dark Protection + armor buff give you about 12% damage reduction.

 

Okey..my bad, time to sleep ...it's 20s yes. So it was bad example

 

Hmm..after all those calculations, Reactive Warding relict looks better than defence/shield ones. This will cover loss of self healing from combat tech completely.

 

Upd: time to sleep again ...it has 40s cooldown :/ so may not cover yet :/

Edited January 8, 2014 by alexzk

[Altheran]

oh...have u ever played pvp, mr. Holms ?

 

he will use PUSH if have 3 attacking him + force speed /roll to run away or force camo /restealth

 

any of those actions will break ur channeling...

 

channeling is impossible if target goes out of range/disappears/pushes you in air

 

That's my favorite to break channeling of full tanks:

1. force push, if cd or some sorks there need to be pushed...

2. run 15m away, pull tank close to me again

3. low slash works too ...

 

And you didn't take in account the part where I said you have only a stun left, Dr. Watson

You can't have anything at your disposal at anytime. You are quite always in a situation where you have to make choices, it's impossible to be able to disrupt all threats.

 

Edit : If you really are the type of person who is always cutting tank's Telekinetic Throws, then you are the type of player I like to fight the most, because you're taking the bait, literally wasting your tools on something trivial.

You should not care about my ability to resist unless I'm the last one standing, because it doesn't matter, if a healer can make a DPS survive, he'll be able to heal me. Even if you succeed to take me down, you'd have removed the least threatening foe, and the time you kill me, my DPS mates would have killed your mates before.

(unless you have a tank-cutter spec, in which case I understand why you'd focus me)

Edited January 8, 2014 by Altheran

[alexzk]

Dunno That's a bad build if he left stun only and got attacked by 3 or it was really long fight and this guy is tank too, so can just resist your cast :/

[alexzk]

Any way, gona try reactive relict + full tank for some time...

 

WZ popped with old 23-21-2 buid ...1 death, 18 medals...i'm gona like this relict..so back to tank.

 

Well, relict is really good, looks like it fully covers combat tech heal removed, yes (not counting harnessed shadows heals).

... but when FPS drops to 7-10 on voidstar on i7 :/ I cant keep that protection up actually I barely see where guy is now to do dbl strike

Edited January 8, 2014 by alexzk

[SkybladeDarkstar]

Any way, gona try reactive relict + full tank for some time...

 

WZ popped with old 23-21-2 buid ...1 death, 18 medals...i'm gona like this relict..so back to tank.

 

Well, relict is really good, looks like it fully covers combat tech heal removed, yes (not counting harnessed shadows heals).

... but when FPS drops to 7-10 on voidstar on i7 :/ I cant keep that protection up actually I barely see where guy is now to do dbl strike

 

Sorry, an item being a replacement for an ability is complete bull. Next patch with new gear, Shadow Tanks are useless again.

 

KBN,

 

Nobody other than min-maxers like yourself wanted the self heals gone. I completely swapped my Tank Sin from Tank to Deception DPS because of this change, it made Tank Sin so boring and made it's skill cap go through the damn roof! I will say, my tank sin was only 40 when i changed, so it wasent like i was full 78 min-max gear for Tank, but still! There is now NOTHING other than Stealth and the 5% healing ring that Tank Sins have over any other tank. If the unique self heals were added back in, i would CONSIDER making my sin a tank again. but right now Tank sin is so hard to play, i cant play it. the Self Heals were MUCH more forgiving, you didnt have to always keep thrashing for an Shock Proc. now, you have to litterally spam Thrash to get a proc, and that is boring to watch... I would also consider playing it again if the first tick of Force Lightning gave all 4 stacks, THAT would be much simpler too.

 

I have to agree with this. If you're a min/maxing, endgame-raider, this change is probably positive. Otherwise, you're screwed. The class is less fun to play, with a tighter and far more boring rotation, and the overall effectiveness for players below the skill cap has been butchered.