Bring back self-heals

[alexzk]

Who cares about this NiM crap?

 

Before 2.5 it was very easy to do dailies/PvP by shadow, it was 60% chance to proc self heal from any hit + it could proc healing relict + medpack + battle readness and only when all that was not enough (or cds) - I used harnessed shadows. I could stand against 2-3 warriors in pvp, never "rested" doing pve dailies/quests, could solo FPs.

 

Now...it's just absurd :/ Build 25-21-0 works much-much better than 36-xx-xx, can do H4 solo on makeb and kill somebody 1v1 in pvp. No chance to stand more than 15s 2v1 in any variations :/

 

So well, please return self heal of combat tech "on any hit".

Actually, it's kinda joke - other 2 tanks can self heal during pvp much more than shadow, for example, Guardian has 10% immedial heal on friendly leap pvp bonus + skill healing being attacked with 45cd - they do like 100k healz per wz now!.

 

Vanguard has something healing too with low cd ...

Edited January 2, 2014 by alexzk

[THoK-Zeus]

Who cares about this NiM crap?

 

Before 2.5 it was very easy to do dailies/PvP by shadow, it was 60% chance to proc self heal from any hit + it could proc healing relict + medpack + battle readness and only when all that was not enough (or cds) - I used harnessed shadows. I could stand against 2-3 warriors in pvp, never "rested" doing pve dailies/quests, could solo FPs.

 

Now...it's just absurd :/ Build 25-21-0 works much-much better than 36-xx-xx, can do H4 solo on makeb and kill somebody 1v1 in pvp. No chance to stand more than 15s 2v1 in any variations :/

 

So well, please return self heal of combat tech "on any hit".

Actually, it's kinda joke - other 2 tanks can self heal during pvp much more than shadow, for example, Guardian has 10% immedial heal on friendly leap pvp bonus + skill healing being attacked with 45cd - they do like 100k healz per wz now!.

 

Vanguard has something healing too with low cd ...

 

You think it was fair that Warriors and PT's had to rest while doing dailies?

The stance healing was just not good and got worse and worse because it was not scaling at all.

36-xx builds are still much better for doing dailies, and for most of the other pve content.

Endure Pain is not a heal. You can see this numbers on the scoreboard, but they also lose the same amount of health...

Assassins got a straight buff with 2.5 for pvp content.

Edited January 2, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[alexzk]

Enraged Defence + pvp set bonus, I don't rest by jugg either, just leap to my companion and got 10% of health back.

 

Just now had WZ, killed 3, they respwaned and I danced with them 20s more by jug tank. Never happens now by shadow.

[TheSupaCoopa]

Who cares about this NiM crap?

 

Before 2.5 it was very easy to do dailies/PvP by shadow, it was 60% chance to proc self heal from any hit + it could proc healing relict + medpack + battle readness and only when all that was not enough (or cds) - I used harnessed shadows. I could stand against 2-3 warriors in pvp, never "rested" doing pve dailies/quests, could solo FPs.

 

Now...it's just absurd :/ Build 25-21-0 works much-much better than 36-xx-xx, can do H4 solo on makeb and kill somebody 1v1 in pvp. No chance to stand more than 15s 2v1 in any variations :/

 

So well, please return self heal of combat tech "on any hit".

Actually, it's kinda joke - other 2 tanks can self heal during pvp much more than shadow, for example, Guardian has 10% immedial heal on friendly leap pvp bonus + skill healing being attacked with 45cd - they do like 100k healz per wz now!.

 

Vanguard has something healing too with low cd ...

Duran'del here:

 

PTs have a heal with a 3 minute CD. It doesn't trigger until you get under 35% health. We do get a little bit of self-healing from AoE, but its not enough to make a difference. PTs can't really take as much damage as a shadow or guardian in the long run, due to our crappy DCDs.

[THoK-Zeus]

Enraged Defence + pvp set bonus, I don't rest by jugg either, just leap to my companion and got 10% of health back.

 

Just now had WZ, killed 3, they respwaned and I danced with them 20s more by jug tank. Never happens now by shadow.

 

If we talk about so little damage that the pvp set bonus get's you back to full health, overcharge saber will be enough aswell.

 

Of course i always kill 3 people solo with my jugg tank...

[alexzk]

It just seems "low". At the WZ end jug has 100k of healz, shadow HAD about same, now it is like 10-20k at best case.

 

Also I specially paid attention on killing shadow tanks now, well, easy. Before 2.5 it was reverse - they had to kill me.

[THoK-Zeus]

It just seems "low". At the WZ end jug has 100k of healz, shadow HAD about same, now it is like 10-20k at best case.

 

Also I specially paid attention on killing shadow tanks now, well, easy. Before 2.5 it was reverse - they had to kill me.

 

The WZ is not telling you that the jug loses all the heals from endure pain. There is no lost health column at the scoreboard. Endure Pain is not a self heal. It's a temporary health increase that appears as a heal in scoreboards...

 

I also paid attention on killing shadow tanks. Much harder now. Before 2.4 it was a lot easier to kill them.

[KeyboardNinja]

The WZ is not telling you that the jug loses all the heals from endure pain. There is no lost health column at the scoreboard. Endure Pain is not a self heal. It's a temporary health increase that appears as a heal in scoreboards...

 

PvP scoreboards count bubbles as effective healing, so long as the bubble is actually popped by damage. Thus, Reactive Warding relics and Sonic Barrier both contribute to Jugg healing numbers. You're almost certainly correct though that these numbers are padded appreciably by Endure Pain.

[alexzk]

I preffer to avoid endure pain actually. Use it when I need those 15s and pretty sure will benefit from it. So it can be 2-3 times per wz and still, heal numbers are huge. Especially numbers are big at hutball, when I can ignore all fights totally and put all into defense.

So my point is, everybody has heals except shadows and that +4% does not help.

Edited January 2, 2014 by alexzk

[Master-Nala]

Duran'del here:

 

PTs have a heal with a 3 minute CD. It doesn't trigger until you get under 35% health. We do get a little bit of self-healing from AoE, but its not enough to make a difference. PTs can't really take as much damage as a shadow or guardian in the long run, due to our crappy DCDs.

 

Powertechs and Vanguards also get a heal from Shoulder Cannon.

[Master-Nala]

PvP scoreboards count bubbles as effective healing, so long as the bubble is actually popped by damage. Thus, Reactive Warding relics and Sonic Barrier both contribute to Jugg healing numbers. You're almost certainly correct though that these numbers are padded appreciably by Endure Pain.

 

Don't forget Blade Barrier. Since my days in Everquest 2 I have always seen warding or absorb effects as proactive heals. Guardian healing is immense.

[KeyboardNinja]

Don't forget Blade Barrier. Since my days in Everquest 2 I have always seen warding or absorb effects as proactive heals. Guardian healing is immense.

 

Non-zero, but not immense. Guardians can get around 125 HPS if you correctly count the bubble, assuming they are using blade storm on cooldown. Pre-2.5, it was possible for a shadow to get over 400 HPS without touching a medpack.

[Vember]

Endure Pain is not a self heal. It's a temporary health increase that appears as a heal in scoreboards...

 

 

No it doesn't.

 

At least, it never has before (haven't played my guard in a couple months). It also doesn't count toward heal medals.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Vember

[Master-Nala]

Non-zero, but not immense. Guardians can get around 125 HPS if you correctly count the bubble, assuming they are using blade storm on cooldown. Pre-2.5, it was possible for a shadow to get over 400 HPS without touching a medpack.

 

No argument about pre-2.5, but then that's what we've been whining about for the last month!

[THoK-Zeus]

No it doesn't.

 

Endure Pain

Instant

Cooldown: 90s

Temporarily increases your maximum health by 30% for 10 seconds. When the effect ends, the health is lost.

 

Yes it does.

[KeyboardNinja]

No it doesn't.

 

It does. Play around with it. Endure Pain also shows up as a heal in combat logs if you parse.

[Vember]

Endure Pain

Instant

Cooldown: 90s

Temporarily increases your maximum health by 30% for 10 seconds. When the effect ends, the health is lost.

 

Yes it does.

 

I'm pretty sure it doesn't count as a heal on the scoreboard for the jugg/guardian total healing. Otherwise, you'd see much higher healing numbers. It also does not trigger heal medals.

To clarify, this is what I was responding to:

 

It's a temporary health increase that appears as a heal in scoreboards...

 

Edited January 2, 2014 by Vember

[alexzk]

Had WZ by shadow...

 

HPS:

 

Shadow(tanky hybrid) - 37

Jugg (tank) - 137

Merks(DDs) - 105-140

Sorks(madness) - 300

 

Soo ..just numbers at the end

 

How to play by that ? Both teams hadn't healz...and we were stomped of coz :/

 

P.S. That stupid healz who had problems with "spikes" at operations must be just replaced instead changing shadow :/ They had to do 1000 or 2000 of wzs to figure out what "spike" is and learn to heal it. To be honest my companion heals better than 95% of healz.

Any way, I'm so mad and can't decide if I want to pay game again :/ (which will close forum for me soon ).

Edited January 4, 2014 by alexzk

[Methoxa]

pre 2.5 : buff sins

 

post 2.5 : buff sins

 

You already had the best mitgation (least dtps) before 2.5 hit, now you got even more even though its not up 100% of the fight. Now you want selfheal back + mitgationbuff which would make the game pve and pvp wise unbalanced. Juggers + Pts taking less dmg? No they are just a little less spiky but overall dtps is even higher. Another buff and Sins can solotank any op in storymode. Highest dps, best mitgation, best buffs&debuffs, able to dispell himself, quicker running and so on making him the perfect choice for all ops even nm. But yeah lets buff him again...

[alexzk]

I didn't ask for that "mitigation". That stupid buff means nothing, it has very rare usage at big bosses ONLY when shadow has enough aggro already etc.

 

Instead training their healz to work better that "rading" community forced devs to change class :/ That is unacceptable :/

 

And yes, being 50 yet in columi (56 grade) I've been main tank in couple ops like Ev or KP, had zero problems with "spikes".

 

I want everything back prior 2.5 actually.

Edited January 4, 2014 by alexzk

[Leafy_Bug]

I think we haven't talked enough about who has best mitigation and mean mitigation. 12 months of posts about that is clearly not enough because BW haven't made a section on the leaderboards for that. Would be nice to get medals as a shadow tank everytime you die under the 'top dawg mean mitigation category'.

 

 

These posts are making me giggle again. Just like that dude who wrote in the RAPTUS HM topic where he stated that Shadows are the best tanks there without telling the whole story. He went on and on about Guardians and Vangs being bad but when I pointed out the statistic of which tank usually gets one shot there and how my guardian always has a cd available to stay alive, he was 'uhm, yeah, I don't speak amerikano'.

 

I didn't ask for that "mitigation". That stupid buff means nothing, it has very rare usage at big bosses ONLY when shadow has enough aggro already etc.

 

Instead training their healz to work better that "rading" community forced devs to change class :/ That is unacceptable :/

 

And yes, being 50 yet in columi (56 grade) I've been main tank in couple ops like Ev or KP, had zero problems with "spikes".

 

I want everything back prior 2.5 actually.

 

 

 

I think your CV needs to me more impressive than that before you can get into a discussion with some of us about shadow tanks and shadow protection. Gimme a call when you take 2850 DPS from thrasher in 16M NiM in 72 gear and I will make sure to call you back about those self heals and how bad they were.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Leafy_Bug

[alexzk]

Okey, keep gigling But I dont care ur raptus at all. I want be viable in pvp as tank. I don't want to specc into DD trees or have hybrids, but I'm forced. Because this new "mitigation" buff works in pvp ONLY when u left stealth. When u try to keep it up, u're pushed, stunned, target resisted, stealthed etc. That is not a place to have such long cast skills. Actually I removed TT from panel already.

 

Self healz were pvp skill and fps soloing. nothing about 16m nim.

 

As I recall, most of "op" shadow tanks had everything into endurance old days, and well, they were dying into HM FPs if heal is not BiS They always blamed healz though. I never had that, I had shields and defense up-to DR and I was pretty fine with any content. 1 thing I remember - having 500 hp started fight with full hp marauder - he died.

Edited January 4, 2014 by alexzk

[Leafy_Bug]

Okey, keep gigling But I dont care ur raptus at all. I want be viable in pvp as tank. I don't want to specc into DD trees or have hybrids, but I'm forced. Because this new "mitigation" buff works in pvp ONLY when u left stealth. When u try to keep it up, u're pushed, stunned, target resisted, stealthed etc. That is not a place to have such long cast skills. Actually I removed TT from panel already.

 

Self healz were pvp skill and fps soloing. nothing about 16m nim.

 

As I recall, most of "op" shadow tanks had everything into endurance old days, and well, they were dying into HM FPs if heal is not BiS They always blamed healz though. I never had that, I had shields and defense up-to DR and I was pretty fine with any content. 1 thing I remember - having 500 hp started fight with full hp marauder - he died.

 

 

 

Sorry I stopped at daily HM FPS and duels. Wake up and smell the coffee. SWTOR is not a PVP game but a PVE one. As sooner you realize, the better. 1.5 years of broken PVP should be enough to give you the hint. You will never be as good as a guardian in PVP because of how shadows are designed. To appease the majority they have to suck in PVP and excel in PVE. If they excel in PVP as well, PVE guardians and juggs will lose their RAID SLOTS. Bringing back self heals will not make you the best PVP tank. It will put you back at node guarding and stealthing out when you are the last man standing in an arena . There are more PVE-ers in this game than PVP-ers, so BW will cater the majority.

 

 

Try Wildstar?

Edited January 4, 2014 by Leafy_Bug

[alexzk]

Depends on what you mean "as good as". For example AH is nightmare for jugg, but free medals for shadow

...and shadow was always better (I mean before 2.5 )

 

Any way As you stopped at duels, I stopped and KP HM and don't want to hear about this pve crap. I want shadow tank back in pvp at least as others are now. Currently full shadow tank is .."tank" - only it can do - protect healer and follow healer and still dies when focused...(yes, old days me and sage had 6 ppl on us easy, and old days tank could kill 2-3 node protectors and get that node).

[Leafy_Bug]

Depends on what you mean "as good as". For example AH is nightmare for jugg, but free medals for shadow

...and shadow was always better (I mean before 2.5 )

 

Any way As you stopped at duels, I stopped and KP HM and don't want to hear about this pve crap. I want shadow tank back in pvp at least as others are now. Currently full shadow tank is .."tank" - only it can do - protect healer and follow healer and still dies when focused...(yes, old days me and sage had 6 ppl on us easy, and old days tank could kill 2-3 node protectors and get that node).

 

 

Which was flawed by design and ridiculously overpowered. I was Elite Warlord 1.5 months after the game came out, was main tank in ranked warzones as a shadow. I stopped when Powertechs were melting me in 3 GCDs in BIS tank gear and nobody cared. That was the sign shadows will never be solid in PVP again. You clearly don't read what people say and I will stop here.