Bring back self-heals

[alexzk]

Yes, that days everybody were elite warlords in 1.5-3 month(s) - Illum - I came after that fixed and still have 97 rating, however 2 more chars have 90...

 

Point is ... shadow is supposed to be lonely wolf. And forcing it to depend on others is just wrong.

 

And yes, I don't read what ppl say, I just feel uncomfortable with current shadow everywhere now.

 

P.S. Also take in account....shields are no longer 45%+, they're 32%, defense rate is lowered too like by 5%. For shadow who relayed on it - it's just death.

 

P.P.S. Get full conq pvp set with agums, to have stats as I have (same gear for healing comps 65-66 quality). Next, go try H4s stages1-2 solo on Makeb. I can't do it as full tank (36-xx-xx) but 23-21-2 like that does it.

 

So once again, where do u see improvements? :/ On some spherical numbers? :/ Before 2.5 I always had 36-xx-xx.

Edited January 4, 2014 by alexzk

[DarthSpekulatius]

my Main is a Shadow tank atleast it was the case before I was doing S&V 16hm regularly

I'll just repeat what I said on the patch day I love you BW keep shadow tanks as they are they are great fun once more

 

or if you do change it back to heals please revert Balance to original 1.7 and improve dot tracking.

 

thank you either way but please decide before my vanguard is 55 so i can get her tank equip instead of DD equip.

 

see you.

[SkybladeDarkstar]

Has anyone considered the effect it has on Shadow Tanks who are still leveling? You don't get Slow Time for almost ten levels after you get Harnessed Shadows. Explain how a character without Slow Time is supposed to keep the buff up.

 

A friend of mine who is currently leveling a Shadow Tank brought that point up to me, stating that the difficulty curve in flashpoints is continuing to increase around level 40, but that he can't find a way to keep the buff up constantly. Which, since it depends entirely on getting a well timed trigger from Particle Acceleration, is not surprising.

 

If you say that maintaining self heals/Dark Protection is too difficult for the average assassin player and you want self heals back you have to buff self heals so that they heal for more when you wait longer to cast them.

 

Not true. Self Heals always provided a buff in relation to the skill of the player, and the rate at which it was used. A single cast of the self-heals always healed you for the amount whenever you used it. How frequently you can use it, and therefor how much self heals you got out of it, were dependent entirely on your skill with the rotation, and your need for the self heals.

 

Shadow Protection does not work this way. A good player who can predict/operate around the stuns/knockbacks and hit every ability precisely on the cooldown, is going to have the ability up literally constantly. Exit stealth, get 4 stacks, keep stacks up. Thus, to a skilled player, each tick of the buff provides a 4% additional damage mitigation buff every time it is used.

 

To an unskilled player, who can't keep the buff up constantly, we're looking at drop off of utility of the buff, as it provides 1%, 2%, 3%, then full over the course of the entire 3 second cast, in addition to the time gap between the drop and the next time it is cast. And which also assumes that you don't get stunned or knocked back while casting, which will leave you with a smaller portion of the buff.

 

If Shadow Protection is going to always provide 4% additional damage protection, it should do so for everyone, regardless of player skill. Remove the building buff part and give it a flat 4% buff at the first tick. Poor players still won't be able to keep it up constantly, but they will not be as severely punished for failing to hit it precisely on time, which will bring the ability's skill difference more in line with what the self heals were.

 

Or, if it is supposed to be kept up constantly, then they need to extend the cooldown by six seconds or so, and provide enough time that all players can keep it up constantly.

 

Oh, and while I'm bringing it up, please stop ranting about the "it's not 4%, it's 7%" thing. It is not 4% flat damage reduction, this is true, but we can't use any other numbers for the comparison because how much of an actual mitigation buff you get from it is entirely dependent on the damage reduction that the tank in question already has, which is not a constant. We are using the 4% because it is simple, easy to understand, and accurate. The fact that it provides a larger effective benefit due to the way the numbers work out doesn't hurt our arguments, except to point out that losing it is just that much more costly.

Edited January 5, 2014 by SkybladeDarkstar

[THoK-Zeus]

Has anyone considered the effect it has on Shadow Tanks who are still leveling? You don't get Slow Time for almost ten levels after you get Harnessed Shadows. Explain how a character without Slow Time is supposed to keep the buff up.

Explain how a char without Slow Time is supposed to heal himself constantly.

 

A friend of mine who is currently leveling a Shadow Tank brought that point up to me, stating that the difficulty curve in flashpoints is continuing to increase around level 40, but that he can't find a way to keep the buff up constantly. Which, since it depends entirely on getting a well timed trigger from Particle Acceleration, is not surprising.

 

 

 

Not true. Self Heals always provided a buff in relation to the skill of the player, and the rate at which it was used. A single cast of the self-heals always healed you for the amount whenever you used it. How frequently you can use it, and therefor how much self heals you got out of it, were dependent entirely on your skill with the rotation, and your need for the self heals.

 

Shadow Protection does not work this way. A good player who can predict/operate around the stuns/knockbacks and hit every ability precisely on the cooldown, is going to have the ability up literally constantly. Exit stealth, get 4 stacks, keep stacks up. Thus, to a skilled player, each tick of the buff provides a 4% additional damage mitigation buff every time it is used.

 

To an unskilled player, who can't keep the buff up constantly, we're looking at drop off of utility of the buff, as it provides 1%, 2%, 3%, then full over the course of the entire 3 second cast, in addition to the time gap between the drop and the next time it is cast. And which also assumes that you don't get stunned or knocked back while casting, which will leave you with a smaller portion of the buff.

My quote was about a shadow Player who wanted to have the same Value out of Force Lightning if he just is able to cast it every 30 seconds instead of every 9 seconds. Don't spread misinformation when taking a single sentence out of the context.

 

"Skilled" Player already got the huge nerf, that they don't need to Force Lightning every 9 seconds. Shadow Protection already got dumbed down from an optimal 6-9 seconds Rotation to a 12 seconds Rotation.

 

The max rotation got already dumbed down by 3-6 seconds, as i calculated before that means that lower "skilled" Player get an advantage from Dark Protection compared to self heal before. You are just repeating your previous "Argument" in this paragraph.

 

Here is my quote again, but as you are not responding to it (probably because you fear serious discussion), it's probably senseless to repeat it:

 

The conclusion is not true. A delay of 1 second excactly 15 seconds after you did start casting your previous Force Lightning will result in that 15% less value out of a 15 second Force Lightning (it's 15% less value and not 4/15 cause you build 1-4 stacks). You compare it to one excact Point in the Rotation, but you have to see the whole spectrum of possibilites.

 

For example a delay of 1 second excactly 14 seconds after you did start casting your previous Force Lightning result in 0% less value.

 

Basically the moment you lose 0,1 seconds in your global Rotation self heal gets less value. Without any energize procs you can cast a Force Lightning every 9 seconds, with typical energize procs you can reduce that by 2 gcd to 6 seconds (49% Chance) or by 1gcd (49% out of the 49%) to 7,5 seconds.

 

So if you count all that together... basically self heal gets already a 4,5 seconds delay while your Dark Protection still does have a 0 second delay.

Then comes the ramp-up-time and after that there comes the point were you get less and less self-heals/protection (which makes the ramp-up-time more and more unimportant) and the 5-6% additional damage reduction from the armor buffs with 2.5 are the only thing that matters.

 

 

The Addition is also entirely wrong as that was the same with self heal.

 

If Shadow Protection is going to always provide 4% additional damage protection, it should do so for everyone, regardless of player skill. Remove the building buff part and give it a flat 4% buff at the first tick. Poor players still won't be able to keep it up constantly, but they will not be as severely punished for failing to hit it precisely on time, which will bring the ability's skill difference more in line with what the self heals were.

 

Or, if it is supposed to be kept up constantly, then they need to extend the cooldown by six seconds or so, and provide enough time that all players can keep it up constantly.

Why should it be providing the buff for everyone all the time? Bioware choose that time for a reason and i bet because they didn't want to simplify assassins/shadows by a large amount (although the class got simplified a bit with 2.5). They wanted to get the value of self heal into the same value of damage reduction depending on how often you cast Force Lightning.

 

Oh, and while I'm bringing it up, please stop ranting about the "it's not 4%, it's 7%" thing. It is not 4% flat damage reduction, this is true, but we can't use any other numbers for the comparison because how much of an actual mitigation buff you get from it is entirely dependent on the damage reduction that the tank in question already has, which is not a constant. We are using the 4% because it is simple, easy to understand, and accurate. The fact that it provides a larger effective benefit due to the way the numbers work out doesn't hurt our arguments, except to point out that losing it is just that much more costly.

 

I always say 6-7% or something similar (Depending if People speak about passive armor, Dark Protection or both or pvp and to provide a spectrum of armor levels). It may be, that i forget it sometimes.

 

We use other numbers, because we have other numbers. The 4% is totally totally inaccurate. The 4% would be accurate if you have 0% armor, no damage reduction at all. The 6-7% are correct for every normal assassin tank armor level.

 

And i rant on about it, because stuff like this causes so much misinformation in this forum.

I bet the majority of the forum belives that for example Invincible provides more Damage Reduction then Overcharge Saber, although in reality Overcharge Saber provides the same damage reduction (+ a heal).

Edited January 5, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[alexzk]

Explain how a char without Slow Time is supposed to heal himself constantly.

You all stuck on harnessed shadows, but it was giving lowest heal over all. I always used it as emergency repair, for example when I reached about 30% of health (in pvp).

 

You forgot about combat technique. Eeach time it applied damage it was healing too in addition. And it was talent which gave 65% chance to apply effects (most guides for "op tanks" considered it useless, but I always thought it is most important talent there). So you have 65% chance with 4.5s cooldown, as I recall it's about 1 heal proc per 8 seconds of fight for sure + you use healing relict (healing the ally heals additionally for 505). And you have 100k of self heal on scoreboard at the end of wz NOT USING harnessed shadows at all ( I mean I used builds without it and still it was plenty of selfheal).

 

Now this heal proc is moved into "battle readness" which enables it once per 2 min...and is extremely stupid :/

 

P.S. So actually, I don't care about "harnessed shadows". I want proc-healz back. That was 90% of self healz.

Edited January 5, 2014 by alexzk

[THoK-Zeus]

You all stuck on harnessed shadows, but it was giving lowest heal over all. I always used it as emergency repair, for example when I reached about 30% of health (in pvp).

 

You forgot about combat technique. Eeach time it applied damage it was healing too in addition. And it was talent which gave 65% chance to apply effects (most guides for "op tanks" considered it useless, but I always thought it is most important talent there). So you have 65% chance with 4.5s cooldown, as I recall it's about 1 heal proc per 8 seconds of fight for sure + you use healing relict (healing the ally heals additionally for 505). And you have 100k of self heal on scoreboard at the end of wz NOT USING harnessed shadows at all ( I mean I used builds without it and still it was plenty of selfheal).

 

Now this heal proc is moved into "battle readness" which enables it once per 2 min...and is extremely stupid :/

 

P.S. So actually, I don't care about "harnessed shadows". I want proc-healz back. That was 90% of self healz.

Force Lightning was always giving the most healing by far, unless someone uses a Shadow/Assassin Rotation without harnessed Darkness.

 

The new RW relic is better then the healing relic was, so even if we still would have self healing there would be no Point in taking the self healing relic.

 

A 350 heal every 8 seconds, is nothing compared to a 3000+ heal from Force Lightning and a lot worse then any armor buff we got. It's inside our calculations, but i don't think you can argument with it for anything.

 

Yes, pre 2.5 you should have taken that 15% talent always (although is was probably the worst talent that you had to take ).

 

100000 heal with 350 every 8 seconds and 505 every 23 seconds? That would mean you fought straight for 1522 seconds (thats over 22 minutes), without dieing a single time and with constantly attacking every single second of the warzone, without a single missed gcd....

 

If the proc heals was 90% of your total healing an assassin would've never been able to come even Close to 100k healing in warzones.

Edited January 5, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[alexzk]

Well, there were wz medpacks too And immedial healz restoration from battle readness for tanks.

 

But yes, before shields got bolstered to 30% from 43% on fleet I had build without harnessed shadows. I was taking up-to spinning kick without stealth.

 

When they changed tree I had to go 36-xx-xx

 

>>without dieing a single time and with constantly attacking every single second of the warzone, without a single >>missed gcd.

 

Yes, it was hard to die and you forgot about AoE skils. When there is fight at middle in CW 7vs7 - it is just bloodshed with AoE spamming which is good for tank to prevent capture, and yes I use that "spinning aoe" very often and have key-binding for it (I rarely see usage of it by others) .

 

>>A 350 heal every 8 seconds, is nothing compared to a 3000+ heal from Force Lightning and a lot worse then any >>armor buff we got. It's inside our calculations, but i don't think you can argument with it for anything.

 

Well, If you do some heroics solo of course it is useful, in pvp you can cast it completely once per 3-4 WZs actually.

Edited January 5, 2014 by alexzk

[Altheran]

>>A 350 heal every 8 seconds, is nothing compared to a 3000+ heal from Force Lightning and a lot worse then any >>armor buff we got. It's inside our calculations, but i don't think you can argument with it for anything.

 

Well, If you do some heroics solo of course it is useful, in pvp you can cast it completely once per 3-4 WZs actually.

 

If you believe someone will believe you that Telekinitic Throw can be cast completely only "once every 3-4 WZ" in PvP, you're dreaming.

[alexzk]

If you believe someone will believe you that Telekinitic Throw can be cast completely only "once every 3-4 WZ" in PvP, you're dreaming.

 

Well, I guess solo Ramboes can use it often in solo fights, and it is (or it was - not shielded) really good against other tanks. But if you try to play objectives...you have plenty other things to do instead casting 3s even if u're not pushed/stunned/target stealthed.

 

In fact, pvp situation changes on GCD. So any skill which is longer than GCD to cast is barely useful in pvp or some circumstances should be met, for example lighting sorks or mid-tree merks are hiding.

Edited January 5, 2014 by alexzk

[SkybladeDarkstar]

Explain how a char without Slow Time is supposed to heal himself constantly.

 

He doesn't. Again, healing "constantly" is not the problem. You are the ONLY person, in this entire thread, who has even pretended that self-heals needed to be kept up at the absolute constant rotation. You are still ignoring that the drop-off from waiting is much harsher with the buff than with the self heals.

 

 

My quote was about a shadow Player who wanted to have the same Value out of Force Lightning if he just is able to cast it every 30 seconds instead of every 9 seconds. Don't spread misinformation when taking a single sentence out of the context.

 

How am I "taking it out of context"? You have repeatedly said, in multiple posts, that each tick of the buff provides 1% additional damage mitigation. I was simply pointing out that this isn't true.

 

"Skilled" Player already got the huge nerf, that they don't need to Force Lightning every 9 seconds. Shadow Protection already got dumbed down from an optimal 6-9 seconds Rotation to a 12 seconds Rotation.

 

The max rotation got already dumbed down by 3-6 seconds, as i calculated before that means that lower "skilled" Player get an advantage from Dark Protection compared to self heal before. You are just repeating your previous "Argument" in this paragraph.

 

Seriously? You're arguing that the buff should only last six seconds? I guess we can expect every player to have pixel perfect timing and a lag free connection then, huh?

 

Here is my quote again, but as you are not responding to it (probably because you fear serious discussion), it's probably senseless to repeat it:

 

Actually, I've been ignoring that argument because I felt it was confusing, poorly worded, and largely ignoring the issue I was discussing.

 

You throw out a lot of numbers, but you don't explain them well, nor do you explain where you reached those numbers, and you completely ignore the effect that situational combat has on changing those numbers.

 

You continuously argue about getting "the most" out of the systems, while failing to realize that 99% of the players aren't elite players who hit rotations exactly perfectly every few seconds, and that you still get more out of the self-heals if they are delayed than you are from the buff if it is delayed.

 

Fact: Delaying the self heals does not change the way they operate. You receive the same % buff, over the same length of time, no matter when or how often you use the self heals.

 

Fact: Delaying the buff results in a distinct change to the way the buff operates. If you hit it within the "ideal" time limit, the buff mechanics give you +4% for 15 seconds (3 seconds of channeling, plus 12 seconds of buff duration). If you miss the time, you have 3 additional seconds spent at the lesser mitigation level, and only receive the buff for 12 seconds (assuming all other factors are ideal).

 

 

Why should it be providing the buff for everyone all the time? Bioware choose that time for a reason and i bet because they didn't want to simplify assassins/shadows by a large amount (although the class got simplified a bit with 2.5). They wanted to get the value of self heal into the same value of damage reduction depending on how often you cast Force Lightning.

 

If it was the "same value", far less of us would be complaining about it. It isn't nearly the same value as the self heals, to the vast majority of the players. There are, admittedly, some players who come up complaining that a fun and unique thing about the class got removed. But most of us are here because we're noticing that we're substantially squishier, and have a much tighter rotation that we are forced to stick to.

 

Again, changing the way the buff operated would make it exactly the same as the way the self-heals used to operate. If you can keep the buff up at the ideal rotation, fine, you keep the full benefit of it on constantly, just as you got the "full benefit" of the heals that you keep espousing ad nauseam. If you can't, you get the same exact benefit, delayed by a second or two, which is exactly how the self-heals operated before.

 

I always say 6-7% or something similar (Depending if People speak about passive armor, Dark Protection or both or pvp and to provide a spectrum of armor levels). It may be, that i forget it sometimes.

 

In other words, you're using imprecise and inaccurate numbers, instead of the easy one that the game gives us.

 

We use other numbers, because we have other numbers. The 4% is totally totally inaccurate. The 4% would be accurate if you have 0% armor, no damage reduction at all. The 6-7% are correct for every normal assassin tank armor level.

 

The 4% is completely accurate. It's more accurate than "6-7%", which depends entirely on the gear in question. And is also, by the way, a difference of, at best, 3%, which is not going to change the mind of anyone complaining here.

 

And i rant on about it, because stuff like this causes so much misinformation in this forum.

I bet the majority of the forum belives that for example Invincible provides more Damage Reduction then Overcharge Saber, although in reality Overcharge Saber provides the same damage reduction (+ a heal).

 

You have to explain this one to me.

 

Overcharge Saber: Overcharges your lightsaber charge for 15 seconds, immediately restoring 15% of your max health, increasing the damage of all Charges by 100%, increasing the chance to trigger their effects by 35%, and healing you for 0 when their effects are triggered. The triggered healing cannot occur more than once per second. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber or electrostaff.

 

Dark Charge: Charges your lightsaber with dark energy, giving your attacks a 50% chance to deal 594 internal damage plus additional threat to your target. This effect cannot occur more than once every 4.5 seconds. Increases your armor rating by 130%, shield chance by 15% and threat generation by 100%. While active, melee bonus damage is reduced by 5%. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber or electrostaff. Does not break Stealth.

 

Overcharge increases the damage of your charge, check. It increases the chance of triggering its effect (which, for Dark Charge, is additional Internal damage inflicted), check. It heals you and provides additional healing when the effect triggers (once every 4.5 seconds), check. In what way does it "increase damage reduction"? It doesn't affect mitigation at all, as far as I can tell. It increases damage and provides some self heals, and that's it. Unless I am massively misreading or misunderstanding the ability (which is a possibility).

[Altheran]

Well, I guess solo Ramboes can use it often in solo fights, and it is (or it was - not shielded) really good against other tanks. But if you try to play objectives...you have plenty other things to do instead casting 3s even if u're not pushed/stunned/target stealthed.

 

In fact, pvp situation changes on GCD. So any skill which is longer than GCD to cast is barely useful in pvp or some circumstances should be met, for example lighting sorks or mid-tree merks are hiding.

 

They hid themselves because they'd die fast otherwise, not because of casts.

 

And no, you don't have so many other things to do, to not let you use it on a fairly regulary basis. It may not be as often as in PvE or solo fights, but is still significantly often.

Not to mention that it was (and still is) also one of (if not the best of) your damaging abilities... meaning that even if it roots you, it's the best "filler" to use between tank stuff like taunts interrupts and CC when ready... and add to fact that you don't have much tanky things to do in this game (PvP-tank playstyle is very poor in this game), that it does ready by itself without having to especially have to "work" for it : you're supposed to use Slow Time as regularly as possible because of its effects, and if you only use one Project once in a while, you can use your fully-stacked Telekinetic Throw roughly every 20s (and that's in the worst case).

Considering all of this, and that you may not use it as soon as you have it, you can expect to easily have like 10 opportunities to use it per WZ, unless you're defending a objective without incoming ennemies.

 

Assuming your statement that only one cast could be completed each 3-4 WZ, with ten tries, it would make a success rate of a full cast of only 1 of 35. Simply unbelievable.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Altheran

[alexzk]

>>You have to explain this one to me.

 

>>Overcharge Saber: Overcharges your lightsaber charge for 15 seconds, immediately restoring 15% of your max >>health, increasing the dam

 

 

\Well, he's right though. Tank tree has talent which adds 25% dmg reduction to overcharge during it's effect.

Edited January 5, 2014 by alexzk

[SkybladeDarkstar]

Assuming your statement that only one cast could be completed each 3-4 WZ, with ten tries, it would make a success rate of a full cast of only 1 of 35. Simply unbelievable.

 

Maybe you're playing a different PVP game than I am, but the standard tactic in PVP has pretty much always been "stun as much and as often as possible". Getting a full cast off in anything but a duel just doesn't happen in PVP. Like, ever.

[SkybladeDarkstar]

>>You have to explain this one to me.

 

>>Overcharge Saber: Overcharges your lightsaber charge for 15 seconds, immediately restoring 15% of your max >>health, increasing the dam

 

 

\Well, he's right though. Tank tree has talent which adds 25% dmg reduction to overcharge during it's effect.

 

No problem, I figured I was overlooking something. Thanks.

[alexzk]

But ...that is not the same as invincible. Maybe final numbers in 1000 measure will be same but, If I have the ball running to line I have 25% dmg reduction from overcharge (no healz! I cant attack) and 40% from invincible plain without any "ifs".

 

Also, overhcarge heals immediatlly for some, but, If I have right now full health and opportunity to press the button, I lose heal, but when health will be dropped I may have no chance to use it again - that's what happens in pvp very often - u press medpack and ...u're at respawn with no cd on it Bcs u was stunned to death. So I have to use protection immedaitly when I can - that is plain 25% vs 40%

 

So in this exact situation - carrying the Ball invincible is better always.

Edited January 5, 2014 by alexzk

[Altheran]

Maybe you're playing a different PVP game than I am, but the standard tactic in PVP has pretty much always been "stun as much and as often as possible". Getting a full cast off in anything but a duel just doesn't happen in PVP. Like, ever.

 

And each time, the CC would occur during the cast ? That's some pretty intensive focused silencing. Not the tactic to do unless the Shadow/Assassin tank is Rambo-ing solo... more threatening guys are supposed to be around.

[alexzk]

And each time, the CC would occur during the cast ? That's some pretty intensive focused silencing. Not the tactic to do unless the Shadow/Assassin tank is Rambo-ing solo... more threatening guys are supposed to be around.

 

Yes, pretty much, also there are a lot of pushes around and stealthers (if u dont get it - they disappear breaking ur cast)

 

Well, Just try solo H4 in blackhole, u will see a bit how annoying are pushes, just don't skip packs - kill it. And this is small example of pvp.

Edited January 5, 2014 by alexzk

[SkybladeDarkstar]

But ...that is not the same as invincible. Maybe final numbers in 1000 measure will be same but, If I have the ball running to line I have 25% dmg reduction from overcharge (no healz! I cant attack) and 40% from invincible plain without any "ifs".

 

Invincible reduces the damage you receive by 40%. This reduction, however, comes after your armor buffs.

 

Let's say that you have 50% damage reduction from armor (for simplicity's sake). So an attack that would do 1000 damage now does 500. You then apply Invincible, which reduces that 500 down to 300 (200 is 40% of 500, so subtract the 200).

 

Let's now look at the +25% damage reduction from Overcharge. This damage reduction is added to the armor. So your total damage reduction is now 75%, which reduces the 1000 down to 250.

 

Again, it does depend on the armor level and damage reduction you already have, but overall, increasing your overall damage reduction is better than a flat-out "reduce damage by %" ability.

 

Also, overhcarge heals immediatlly for some, but, If I have right now full health and opportunity to press the button, I lose heal, but when health will be dropped I may have no chance to use it again - that's what happens in pvp very often - u press medpack and ...u're at respawn with no cd on it Bcs u was stunned to death. So I have to use protection immedaitly when I can - that is plain 25% vs 40%

 

So in this exact situation - carrying the Ball invincible is better always.

 

You definitely don't want to use Overcharge at full health, but you rarely want to use any long cooldown ability at full health, in my experience.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, in PVP, I either get tossed or stunned constantly. I certainly can't remember ever getting off a full cast of Telekinetic Throw unless I was one on one.

Edited January 5, 2014 by SkybladeDarkstar

[alexzk]

>>I noticed that i take a considerable less amount of damage and other's noticed that aswell.

 

Okey. Possibly u've got it in PVE (I didn't, I mean...36-x-x does not work for me to solo H4, 25-21 - does)

but you should understand that PVP is always about death. You will die - there is no doubts. Die a lot. So question is how much and what you can do before you will die.

 

From this point, 13-33-0 gives MORE utility (same 6% there) than 36-x-x, however I went out of force with that :/

 

And that is bad twisted logic, why tank should use DD trees so much? :/

 

Also as for PVE tanking... 25-17 and other points as u wish may work better too, because you have -25% dmg each 45seconds ON DEMAND when you need it for 6 seconds and restoring force.

Edited January 5, 2014 by alexzk

[Altheran]

Wait a sec you two : when I went with "ten tries" it was a minimization of how much you can actually use it in PvP.

Ten times is actually around the maximal number of times you'd be able to use your 4s stun per WZ. Compare a buff obtained at most each 20s to an ability with a 1min CD, and you can expect to use it actually twice more than your CC.

 

Having all of your tries interrupted would mean that they will never use them while you're not casting it, and that they succed to never let you have Resolve. Which team would do that much for a tank ? I mean, like who would really do that ? Which team would not have their CC dedicated to hinder healers and DPS, and always have one counter for the tank ?

 

And do not try to compare CC intensive PvE with PvP. NPCs do not give you resolve and can actually succed to make all your Throws fail. Especially because you are always their only target.

Players have other targets in mind and can't CC you all the time without granting you immunity.

[THoK-Zeus]

>>I noticed that i take a considerable less amount of damage and other's noticed that aswell.

 

Okey. Possibly u've got it in PVE (I didn't, I mean...36-x-x does not work for me to solo H4, 25-21 - does)

but you should understand that PVP is always about death. You will die - there is no doubts. Die a lot. So question is how much and what you can do before you will die.

 

From this point, 13-33-0 gives MORE utility (same 6% there) than 36-x-x, however I went out of force with that :/

 

I entirely understand if people prefer the hybrid for the aoe reduction instead of the normal build (i refer to 27-17-2 here, with some twists). But that was viable before 2.5. (compared to the Standard tank build) .

 

And especially because you die (so much) additional mitigation is a lot better then self heal in pvp. Therefore the 2.5 changes were a straight buff compared to the self heal build. Spike damage is a lot higher in pvp.

 

Don't wanna bring the old sentence, but: When you die you can't heal yourself

Edited January 5, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[alexzk]

Wait a sec you two : when I went with "ten tries" it was a minimization of how much you can actually use it in PvP.

Ten times is actually around the maximal number of times you'd be able to use your 4s stun per WZ. Compare a buff obtained at most each 20s to an ability with a 1min CD, and you can expect to use it actually twice more than your CC.

 

Having all of your tries interrupted would mean that they will never use them while you're not casting it, and that they succed to never let you have Resolve. Which team would do that much for a tank ? I mean, like who would really do that ? Which team would not have their CC dedicated to hinder healers and DPS, and always have one counter for the tank ?

 

And do not try to compare CC intensive PvE with PvP. NPCs do not give you resolve and can actually succed to make all your Throws fail. Especially because you are always their only target.

Players have other targets in mind and can't CC you all the time without granting you immunity.

 

No, Just some sork/PT/merk/sniper runs in and uses AoE push - ur cast is interrupted. Sent uses force camo and ur cast is broken, Jugg uses friendly leap - heals itself for 10% and ur cast is broken, or even cooler - jugg uses reflect and u damage urself+nobuf ...should I continue?

Edited January 5, 2014 by alexzk

[alexzk]

I entirely understand if people prefer the hybrid for the aoe reduction instead of the normal build (i refer to 27-17-2 here, with some twists). But that was viable before 2.5. (compared to the Standard tank build) .

 

And especially because you die (so much) additional mitigation is a lot better then self heal in pvp. Therefore the 2.5 changes were a straight buff compared to the self heal build. Spike damage is a lot higher in pvp.

 

Don't wanna bring the old sentence, but: When you die you can't heal yourself

 

That's not only AOE reduction which is pretty bonus, it is "blackout" used out of stealth with 25% of any dmg reduction.

And once more, mitigation is extremly hard to keep in pvp now, near impossible, so u have plain couple seconds out of stealth, where blackout looks stronger - 6 seconds of -25% + 6s on demand+restealth and once again 12s + battle readness + wz medpack and u have blackout back for 6 more seconds...So this build allows to kill somebody by tank if u're lucky and got a lot of shields/defences.

 

As for PVE you could stop here, but for pvp you lost spinning kick, so need something to replace - and you go deeper to get low slash.

Edited January 5, 2014 by alexzk

[Altheran]

No, Just some sork/PT/merk/sniper runs in and uses AoE push - ur cast is interrupted. Sent uses force camo and ur cast is broken, Jugg uses friendly leap - heals itself for 10% and ur cast is broken, or even cooler - jugg uses reflect and u damage urself+nobuf ...should I continue?

The number of abilities potentially able to break the channel isn't the problem, but who is dumb enough to always keep one under his/her sleeve to cut this ability from a puny tank unless he's solo ?

 

There are much more annoying and threatening things to care about in PvP than the poor Telekinetic Throw of a Shadow Tank. Nobody would go as far as purposely break all of his channel, and it's simply impossible that anywhere and anytime you'd use it in PvP it would be bound to fail.

People struggle to properly silence a healer, let alone DPS... So a tank that is using a tank-only move... They dont give a **** about them for any second.

[alexzk]

Okey...just try and go in some battle 7 vs 7 as tank must do. You will be flying around field until death bcs of all those pushes. It's AOEs, wneh somebody tries to capture object, merk uses push, and everybody fly away including tank which tried to cast something for 3s

 

Btw merks and commandos have best pushes when talented - can use very often and very hard, on hutball for example, he pushes u down, when u run close up, same merk has push ready to repeat

Edited January 6, 2014 by alexzk