Bioware ruining and tunneling class stories

[Khaleijo]

True class only story arc may be not planned for the future content releases but personally i would prefer the planet arcs to be more individual for each class then. Not the whole planet story but some steps could use the class approach for different solutions to the plot even if the outcome is the same.

If it's to much work to have each class story choice referenced, there could at least be a difference for which class you are.

Maybe one or two side steps of the new planets mission that are really different. For example agents would do some infiltration, warriors are more the brute force frontal assault guys, inquisitors scheming or manipulating on their way or use their department of sith knowledge, bounty hunters maybe use some underworld contacts to reach the same goal.

Nothing that is as individual as the former class stories but it would be a little bit individual and much more fun to replay with different classes.

 

 

Personally i liked the story of Oricon much more than Makeb, going by the whole plot. I liked how the OPs were part of the story arc. But i was really disapointed with the ending of Oricon, no conversation with Darth Marr, our current ally in the dark council, after he told us so much about the importance of this misson? No thank you, no congratulations, good job, no warning not to become the next dread master or something like that?

No, only some lines from an inferior almost not story related person. We are the heroes, the last chances to save the fraction and then the current "leader" doesn't even bother to contact us after we solved everything? Come on, that could be handled better.

 

[Kryptonomic]

As a relatively new MMO player, having now tried SWTOR, Secret World, WoW, and Guild Wars 2, I can say that I've come to the conclusion that full narrative arc stories and MMOs sit somewhat uneasily together. They work up to a bit: I think SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 have shown that. But at some point, they simply become difficult to maintain.

 

Narratives, by definition, have a beginning, middle, end. The end part is the capstone that made what came before it interesting and (hopefully) meaningful. Mind, I'm speaking of narrative arcs there. That character can continue beyond that arc -- but expecting it have the same "class story" is, I think, a non-starter in the realm of MMOs. (Not just in MMOs, mind. Consider "Mass Effect" which had a defined trilogy. The next game will be going in a different direction; different story.)

 

A key design element is that the story elements have little if anything to do with PvP, which many players coming to an MMO solely want. Story just gets in their way or is, at best, a nice distraction to get to where they want to be: ceiling cap and whatnot.

 

For PvE, story elements can work well -- but it also depends on the player. For me, I treat SWTOR as largely a single player game. I do that because I'm curious about the story and I'm a Star Wars fan. When I complete the class stories, I will likely not resubscribe. Not out of displesaure; simply because I've seen what I wanted to see and got a large amount of gaming value for my dollars.

 

I think it's fairly clear that SWTOR attracted a lot of people who may not otherwise care much about MMOs because of the history of the KoToR series as well as the fact that it's a game based on the Star Wars franchise. So you had a lot of groups coming in with different expectations. Add to that the large amount of voice acting and story, and expectations were established (among some players) in a way that may simply not be realistic as part of an MMOs continuing business model.

 

Just opinions here; as I said, I'm fairly new to MMOs and I'll be the first to admit I play this particular one largely like it was a single player game with a good story.

[Never_Hesitate]

Oricon story is great just the way it is.

So is Makeb.

 

Stop the 8 x class story voiceover madness, it´s a waste of money which can be used somewhere else way more effectively.

 

Individual class stories are over, they said so.. end of story.

 

And that's what makes me sad, if I only cared about PvE and PvP I could go and play any other game.

What made SWTOR really outsanding to me were the stories and having 1 instead of 8 lowers the time spent in stories by a lot.

 

Now that I'm through all the stories (most of them multiple times) and the "end of class stories" drives me a bit away from the game

[AlrikFassbauer]

Well put. The problem here is that the OP is one of these players who wants to just play the class story and not play the end game. This is an MMORPG. That stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. Emphasis on the Multiplayer part. It is a social game that requires you to work with others to accomplish things. Lets be honest, the Heroics, Flashpoints, Operations and PVP are the best content in the game, and rightfully so.

 

From your perspective, there never had to be any class story in the first place.

[Arkerus]

As long as we get good and interesting global stories I could care less about class stories.

[jstankaroslo]

Laziness in pure form.

...

 

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I also don't buy the "too expensive" claim.

 

To make one medium sized planet (Balmorra or Tatooine size), five levels up, 8 class stories and one major planet story they would need about 1/10th of the SWTOR budget.

And what is the annual income? Take subscriber number (they claim it is about 500k people) multiply by subscription fee and 12 months and add 10-20% for FTP players and Cartel Market (may be more as BW claims it saved the game) -ther you have the rough estimate of game annual income. And the new expansion would be payed content of course.

I say they have money for class expansion, they just don't want to spend it. They will be forced some time in the future to not let the game die, let's hope it is not gonna be too late.

[QuevvenXiltyn]

Well since the story is about the only interesting part of the game... I loathe endgame in MMOs. In fact, I loathe it so much I haven't been able to motivate myself to finish the class stories yet. I think my top tier of characters are waiting to descend on Belsavis. While the second tier is waiting to go to Nar Shaddaa...

 

I fear if I do end the storylines, I'll get so bored I'll walk away. Did it with DCUO... Did it with STO... So I hope more class stories are in the future, otherwise I fear for my... attention span.

[Aries_cz]

You people do realize that while there might have been scripts written for more class story, the game did not succeed as well as some unrealistically hoped (WoW-killer), right? that means EA/BW started rushing in a panic mode to clean up, move some stuff further along the pipeline, or put some of it on hold until they knew if the game will have any success.

 

Now we have a successful profit-generating game (or so the EA conference calls say), and so some stuff can slowly be placed back in development.

 

However, as anyone who ever tried to develop or create something knows, developing a new environments, rigging new cutscenes, scripting new quests, getting the actors to do the voices, etc take a lot of time, even if you have a big team.

 

The official line is that Makeb, Oricon, etc are the "Avengers" phase of the game (using the Marvel Cinematic Universe analogy). We got all our characters to be the great cool legends, and now they get together to save the day. However, this does not exclude having more stuff again focused on the individual characters (like the Iron Man 3, Thor 2, Capt.America 2, etc) it just takes time.

[morfius]

What about new Avenger movie that simply doesn't take care about Iron Man removing generator from his chest (IM3), making Thor killed Loki or make Hulk blue?

It would be same as Makeb / Oricon here.

[Aries_cz]

What about new Avenger movie that simply doesn't take care about Iron Man removing generator from his chest (IM3), making Thor killed Loki or make Hulk blue?

It would be same as Makeb / Oricon here.

 

Actually Makeb did reflect some stuff you did in your class stories, and Oricon also reflects what you did in your fight against Dread masters.

[morfius]

Actually Makeb did reflect some stuff you did in your class stories, and Oricon also reflects what you did in your fight against Dread masters.

 

There is big lazy gaps in reflecting ... that is all.

Not much as work, price or time ... just laziness.

[Elfa]

Perhaps go find and play another MMO that does give you what you want.... oh wait....

 

Besides.. they have not said never again.. just that they feel they deliver more value with the dual faction storylines post level 50.

 

Who's value are they delivering exactly? Shareholder value?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm just being caddy. Truth is I'm growing somewhat weary of companies speaking a lot and saying nothing. I imagine it comes down to companies being so afraid of losing cash flow that they refuse to give a hard no or yes on anything so they just talk around everything. It's all disguised in double speak and marketing.

 

I'm sounding cynical again, aren't I?

Edited December 2, 2013 by Elfa

[Marb]

It's kind of a bait and switch though there, isn't it? This MMORPG stands apparently unique for being the only one on the market (to my knowledge...correct me if I'm wrong and I'll go play something else) that puts story above all else...only to then devolve into industry-standard raid farming. Certainly, I'd rather this game play to its niche, and it seems like that would be the logical way to build more of a playerbase (after all, why should, say, the player of some other bigger game that shall remain nameless come to this game if it's just offering what they already get in the other game?). Speaking from my own experience, I recently started getting into Ops because I thought I was missing out on story...turns out they don't really have much story anyway. Was left with a sort of "that was kind of pointless" feeling. Not that the fights weren't fun, too, but when the payoff you're set up to feel while leveling is story fulfillment, and the payoff for raiding is "maybe you'll get l33t l00ts"...I dunno

 

On that note also, if we do go ahead and move forward with your ideal that the game should be pushing people to raid, it does a poor job streamlining the transition. You can play any way you like up to 50, and the breaks in actual game activity are only as long as you want to make them, but once you get to the end game, team makeup ratios are strict, and don't match what's actually available to play, so you better hope you're lucky enough to find yourself in demand, and don't you dare play one of those "inferior" builds just because it's fun!

 

The game does back itself into a corner, I agree. The issue is that "endgame" demands repeatable content, and the 1-50 experience is a linear story driven single player experience. I'm not sure how Bioware could provide heavy "one-shot" story content in every patch. The content needs to be more sustainable if it's aimed at those playing at the level cap.

[Alavastre]

I'm one of those players like generally likes to solo things, with some pvp matches and flashpoints mixed in. So I really enjoy the story aspect of the game. And I would really want to continue the class stories, but I don't think that is possible as BW has suggested they won't go that way again.

 

That is fine however, and if you look at BW's Mass Effects games you know why. Basically things branch the more "choices" you get. It begans to become unbearable to make all of those choices relevant. And as you saw, the choices were kind of dumb. Do we kill this one shot character or don't we? Repeat. Makeb felt more epic in the sense that your choices didn't just affect one person, but the planet. I rather liked it.

 

I have said this before, but I do see them going to 4 stories in the future instead of 8. Pulling the Sith/Jedi and the Bounty Hunter + Agent/Trooper+Smuggler together for a more effective way to tell stories. And I hope they start pulling in more reoccuring characters which will allow you to be immersed in the game, rather than just meeting a new lacky you know will die later on in the story.

[Savej]

My main gripe is about the end of the companion arcs - i always thought that there was room for more to happen with many of them but, alas, that experiment failed.

[Ghostius]

 

I think it's fairly clear that SWTOR attracted a lot of people who may not otherwise care much about MMOs because of the history of the KoToR series as well as the fact that it's a game based on the Star Wars franchise. So you had a lot of groups coming in with different expectations. Add to that the large amount of voice acting and story, and expectations were established (among some players) in a way that may simply not be realistic as part of an MMOs continuing business model..

 

Well said. Kotor people keep coming here and expecting to see Kotor. They want Kotor 3, not ToR.

And they keep whining here. Problem is they come to wrong place, this is online forum of ToR mmorpg, not Bioware site.

[Ghostius]

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I also don't buy the "too expensive" claim.

 

To make one medium sized planet (Balmorra or Tatooine size), five levels up, 8 class stories and one major planet story they would need about 1/10th of the SWTOR budget.

And what is the annual income? Take subscriber number (they claim it is about 500k people) multiply by subscription fee and 12 months and add 10-20% for FTP players and Cartel Market (may be more as BW claims it saved the game) -ther you have the rough estimate of game annual income. And the new expansion would be payed content of course.

I say they have money for class expansion, they just don't want to spend it. They will be forced some time in the future to not let the game die, let's hope it is not gonna be too late.

 

Laziness does not exist in business world . And BW/EA are definately business companies, not charity. If you are lazy, you are out of business very soon.

You clearly dont have any idea about business when main point you mentioning is annual income. It means nothing really without mentioning staff costs, interest payments for loans, server costs and maintenance, marketing, franchise cost etc.etc.etc. And when you deduct all expenses, shareholders/owners want their share of the cake. In the end, you end up with 10-20% of income you mentioned and which you can reinvest in new content.

Also, ToR was most expensive game in the history costing over 200mil $. And game almost sunk at the begining. BW wont do same mistake and invest too much in content which does not attract enough customers. As you said, they have enough money, but its market is too small to take that risk.

If they clearly said they wont do more class stories, they must have good reason for that. No businessman in their right mind would miss oportunity to make profit and in this case, market is too small and costs too high.

Personally, I love class stories, but also understand why there wont be any.

[Lateris]

I really have to add that class stories were the coolest and most agreed upon feature that gamers loved about SWTOR. But with a F2P model you have to pump out the content. The game has to generate profit to exist or it ends.

[Ghostius]

Who's value are they delivering exactly? Shareholder value?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm just being caddy. Truth is I'm growing somewhat weary of companies speaking a lot and saying nothing. I imagine it comes down to companies being so afraid of losing cash flow that they refuse to give a hard no or yes on anything so they just talk around everything. It's all disguised in double speak and marketing.

 

I'm sounding cynical again, aren't I?

 

It is all marketing talk, it is as old as human kind is. Companies will never say yes or no, it is always maybe, we will see, cant promise etc.

In my company, I never say customers it cant be done or there is no goods at stock. I always say let me check, will call back later, give me some time etc.

Behind all that is ofc fear of loosing customer, meaning loosing income by not selling.

[Gwena]

Hmm, I do wonder about the value of making class stories, from Bioware's perspective. We know voice acting isn't a big cost, but there is still the writing and such to deal with.

 

IMHO expanded class stories would add more to the game than some people think, though. Sure, it is only a few quests per class on a whole planet, but those few unique class quests can be what make said planet worth going through more than once. I, for one, will not be taking more than 1-2 characters per faction through Makeb, because there is so little different about the experience when you take additional characters through. On the other hand, I have no problem running through Tatooine 3-4 times on one faction, because I have my class stories there to look forward to.

 

And I am probably alone in this, but if they don't continue class stories past 50, I'd like to see them add additional quest based leveling areas as an alternative for those that like to level via (non-daily) quests. Maybe add level 50/53 bonus series to the starter and capital planets, or something.

[ImmortalLowlife]

I myself never played another MMO and probably will not in the future -I need my Star Wars stories, not duels, not mechanics, not class balance etc. If there are no stories -no reason to play and pay for this game.

 

^^^This.....and I have a feeling EA/BW is going to "poop a brick" whenever the "New next gen open world SW RPG " is released on consoles. Only THEN will they realize how many ppl play this game with a "single player" mindset...

 

I've always thought this game should have been a console/pc single player game with online multiplayer elements & Dlc instead of the cartel market. I guarantee they'd have made back their initial $200m investment within a month. But nooooooooo......EVERYBODY wants the WOW success which is NOT realistic thinking.

[Aries_cz]

^^^This.....and I have a feeling EA/BW is going to "poop a brick" whenever the "New next gen open world SW RPG " is released on consoles. Only THEN will they realize how many ppl play this game with a "single player" mindset...

 

I've always thought this game should have been a console/pc single player game with online multiplayer elements & Dlc instead of the cartel market. I guarantee they'd have made back their initial $200m investment within a month. But nooooooooo......EVERYBODY wants the WOW success which is NOT realistic thinking.

 

Actually, EA will not give a crap, because whatever SW game is coming out in next decade will still be their game.

And they made their investments back in really short time from preorders and first months of subscription

[Calathar]

Well said. Kotor people keep coming here and expecting to see Kotor. They want Kotor 3, not ToR.

And they keep whining here. Problem is they come to wrong place, this is online forum of ToR mmorpg, not Bioware site.

take story from tor and what you get? Your typical, repetitive and extremely boring mmo, without any features that place it over the other. it doesnt have best graphics, best pvp and best end game. TOR is average without story m8. TOR is 4th mmo ive decided to sub after the trial, and only 2nd ive resubed (the other being eve). Kill the story and you will basically kill the game-if you do not realise that vast amounts of subbers aren't here for pvp or op grind fest but for story and rp'ing, you are clueless.

[JimG]

Could you plz give me your source? just so i can post it and make everyone rage at biofail?

Dude, they've been saying that since April when ROTHC launched. Google it. There are posts and dev comments all over about this. This is old news in the forums.

[Arkerus]

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I also don't buy the "too expensive" claim.

 

To make one medium sized planet (Balmorra or Tatooine size), five levels up, 8 class stories and one major planet story they would need about 1/10th of the SWTOR budget.

And what is the annual income? Take subscriber number (they claim it is about 500k people) multiply by subscription fee and 12 months and add 10-20% for FTP players and Cartel Market (may be more as BW claims it saved the game) -ther you have the rough estimate of game annual income. And the new expansion would be payed content of course.

I say they have money for class expansion, they just don't want to spend it. They will be forced some time in the future to not let the game die, let's hope it is not gonna be too late.

 

Here's a guy who doesn't understand anything about the development process or a how a company even runs.

 

I couldn't find a better example if I tried.

 

I also have "the money" for a 72 inch television. It doesn't mean I am going to buy one.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Arkerus