We need to make cross server queues a reality

[AlexDougherty]

Has anyone pointed out that Cross Server Queues are not that easy, the warzone(or flashpoint) would still need to be played on a specific server, which even if the players are on the same continent (all Europeans for example) will still lead to slight differences in lag. Not to mention the way achievements (and other things) are recorded means there is a possibility that the rewards might disappear. And if players are on different continents the problems increase vastly.

[illgot]

Has anyone pointed out that Cross Server Queues are not that easy, the warzone(or flashpoint) would still need to be played on a specific server, which even if the players are on the same continent (all Europeans for example) will still lead to slight differences in lag. Not to mention the way achievements (and other things) are recorded means there is a possibility that the rewards might disappear. And if players are on different continents the problems increase vastly.

 

of course it is not easy or cheap.

 

But waiting in queues for hours with nothing popping up is boring.

 

I am still leveling alts so I can always change over, but eventually it will reach a point where I just don't play SWTOR anymore due to the long queues for PvP.

 

I doubt I am the only one that will stop playing completely once the queues are too long.

[Siorac]

Has anyone pointed out that Cross Server Queues are not that easy, the warzone(or flashpoint) would still need to be played on a specific server, which even if the players are on the same continent (all Europeans for example) will still lead to slight differences in lag. Not to mention the way achievements (and other things) are recorded means there is a possibility that the rewards might disappear. And if players are on different continents the problems increase vastly.

 

Well if the players are all European that's no different from the current situation on any European server. There are some differences in latency; an Irish guy living in Dublin will have better latency than me in Budapest. Can't really do anything about that.

 

Therefore cross-server wouldn't introduce new problems if it were restricted to the same continent. There are nine European servers, cross-server PvP queueing between them would make perfect sense. Linguistic differences aren't that important in warzones, surely a German or French guy can type "snow 3" if necessary. It's not like there's a lot of communication in regular warzones anyway....

[Trollokdamus]

If there is 1 tank per 10 DPS on one server then it is very likely that all servers will be in that general neighborhood..

Here you assume that the ratio is always the same (or almost the same) for every server.

 

If there is a 10 to 1 ratio of DPS and tanks and a 10 to 1 ratio of DPS and tanks with cross server, what has changed??

Here you assume that the ratio on a single server and the ratio with the cross-server tech would be the same.

 

Like I said.. Cross server isn't going to fix anything because all servers have the same issue when it comes DPS Vs. Tanks and Healers.. Some might have a little better ratio, while others might have a little worse.. In the end it will all average out to either no change or very little change..

Here you assume that the ratio is static on every server and never changes.

 

WOW added it for the same reason.. People wanted it.. And it didn't do a darn thing.. Queue times were still incredibly long for DPS.. My record is 2 hours and 23 minutes with my Warlock.. My tank Paladin?? A whopping 2 minutes and some odd seconds.. Yes that is with cross server.. Not to mention on a server with over 20,000 people on it.. What people didn't realize is that cross server didn't change the ratio of DPS Vs. Tanks and Healers..

Here you assume 2 things:

First, that implementing cross-server to WoW didn't affect the queues, and second, that it didn't change the ratio.

 

Then there is the issue of ninja looting.. Which became a real problem, and why Blizzard implemented their loot system that restricted need rolls.. Some that Bioware will have to consider if they do decide to go cross server..

Here you assume that ninja looting has become a real problem just after the cross-server was implemented.

 

Cross server really doesn't do much of anything for PVE.. Which is the problem with cross server in general.. It really doesn't do much of anything period.. As long as it has no impact on the ratios of DPS Vs. Tank and Healers.. It isn't going to do much..

Here you assume that cross-server doesn't impact the ratio and is useless in general.

 

All of these assumptions do not have (and can't have) anny solid backing up behind them, since you don't have the real data on how things are going.

Yet you say that you make no assumptions. All of us in this thread do.

 

Actually that is not true.. We do have data.. We have both SWTOR and WOW that have similar issues when it comes to long queues while using LFG or GF.. Both games have the exact same problem.. An abundance of DPS when compared to Tanks and Healers.. There is a lot of data.. WOW has more serves than this game, and all of them have the same issue as there were people on their forums asking for cross server.. Just as there are people here asking for group finder.. I think that is enough observable evidence to come to some pretty basic conclusions..

Of course WoW still has the same problem, after all "An abundance of DPS when compared to Tanks and Healers" is a burden of any game that uses this trio system. But... how can you know that without cross realm the said problem wouldn't be much more dire?

 

Besides, the "data" you speak of is not the data i was talking about. What i meant was internal data on the ratio and how it varies over time. Such kind of data is accessible only to the developers, and without it we can't claim anything at all. We can only assume things based on our own limited experience, observations and somewhat biased opinions.

 

Having played WOW when they add cross server, I can say from experience that it didn't do any good.. The numbers simply don't lie.. If the ratio remains unchanged then nothing changes..

What experience are you talking about? In WoW, Group Finder was cross-server from the very beginning, so you couldn't possibly have a chance to compare the queues.

 

No change in the ratios..

Here lies your main problem... you present this line as a fact, while it;s just an assumption you can't possibly back up with anything. As i said - no internal data from the devs, no real evidence in your hands.

 

Meh, sorry for such a long post.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Trollokdamus

[AlexDougherty]

of course it is not easy or cheap.

 

But waiting in queues for hours with nothing popping up is boring.

 

I am still leveling alts so I can always change over, but eventually it will reach a point where I just don't play SWTOR anymore due to the long queues for PvP.

 

I doubt I am the only one that will stop playing completely once the queues are too long.

 

True, I get that waiting is boring, but once you hit level 55 the queues are supposed to go down, of course then you get them demanding you have specific gear (oh well).

 

EA have said in the past that cross server PVP is something they want to do, but that there are technical difficulties, I just wanted to put some of those difficulties on the table, since both you and the devs want to do it.

[skygon]

FFVIX have cross server queue. The queue times as a DPS was insanely huge, 10 times or more the wait times of SWTOR on primetime. But i do agree about x-server queue for pvp, After dec 3 we will have Normal warzones, Arenas, group arenas and now GS.

[Girdeux]

EA have said in the past that cross server PVP is something they want to do, but that there are technical difficulties,

 

From what I remember they never said that at all....they said its an absolute last resort and would take a very long time to implement since its "advanced technology"

 

"There are a couple of reasons – first off, it’s a significant technical achievement, and we felt that pursuing it would not allow us to get the feature to you guys as quickly as it needs to happen. Secondly, most of the design team thinks that it’s not necessarily good for the community"

 

"I can definitely say that Cross-Server Queueing is not in the plan for it. We’ve taken a hard look at Cross Server Queuing in the past and accomplishing it is a *significant* challenge that would take a lot of time away from other things we are working on. Emphasis on significant. It’s not forever off the table but it’s not in the plan right now."

 

The last word from anything cross-server was from 6 months ago, which was in regards to PVP and they said they havent planned anything for it. Lets be real here, we are talking about a dev team that took 1 and a half years to get a copy+paste character transfer happening.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Girdeux

[disxion]

Well.. I am not sure I totally agree with that.. Playing during non peak hours is more of a toss up.. It can help one night or you can sit through a 4 hour queue the next..

 

Cross server really doesn't do much of anything for PVE.. Which is the problem with cross server in general.. It really doesn't do much of anything period.. As long as it has no impact on the ratios of DPS Vs. Tank and Healers.. It isn't going to do much..

 

About the only way that cross server would be of any benefit is when players didn't have to worry about roles.. Because then you are just looking at a larger pool of them.. As as you throw tanks and healers into the mix, forget it..

 

 

At off-hours it would still help. There are considerably less players. less players means a higher the randomness of ratios. You can have 2 tanks queuing one server for Cademimu with 10 DPS and no Healers queuing. Another server you might have one healer queuing and no tanks. During off-hours the lower pool of players means that outliers will occur. Increasing the overall player pool during off-hours will help mitigate extra long queues caused by ratio outliers.

[DarthTHC]

The solution to DPS complaining about long queue times can be solved in 3 words and zero BWEA developer hours:

 

 

Roll A Tank.

 

 

This has been your public service message for the day. Please carry on with your requests for someone else to solve a problem for you that you could instead solve for yourself.

 

As to the off hours thing, yep, totally different solution.

Edited November 18, 2013 by DarthTHC

[DOHboy]

This thread is still open? When will people realize that it is the ratio of DPS to tanks/heals that dictate the queue times.

 

If ALL servers have a 500:1 ratio of DPS to tanks/heals adding more people won't decrease your queue times.

 

The only thing this makes sense for is PVP or if people queue for specific flashpoints (to increase they chances someone somewhere is queued for that particular flashpoint) but in general it will be NOTHING. NOTHING To change the queue times for typical HM flashpoints.

Edited November 18, 2013 by DOHboy

[Andryah]

Can't say much about PvP, but I disagree for PvE.

 

Cross queue servers will not help PvE much because it's just more DPS waiting in the queue. The real question that needs to be addressed is why there are queues. The reason is not that there aren't enough tanks or healers but in my view the reasons are the following:

 

Poor rewards for FP's. FP rewards become obsolote very quickly. So why do them?

There are enough tanks and healers but they AVOID the GF for pugging.

 

Cross server queues do not solve these two issues. It's so easy to get 69 gear now with ops and oricon dailies that you don't need FP's anymore. How do you resolve that?

 

Tanks especially avoid pugging because it tends to cost them more credits than it gains them. Why waste your time on them? Stupid DPS who get their groups killed and totally undergeared healers are the two main reasons I stopped tanking in pugs. How do you resolve that?

 

Seriously, all servers surely have the same issue with queues. If you do cross server it just means the same problem on a larger scale and increased ninja looting on top of that.

 

Spot on assessment IMO. 100% agree.

[Mazikeen]

• PvE queues are long especially for DPS players
  
• PvE queues are impossible during off peak hours for anyone
  
• PvP queues can be long during off peak hours
  
• PvP queues will be even longer once GS is released
  

 

1) If you add cross-server queues, nothing will change because the overall percentages of tanks vs healers vs DPS remains about the same.

2) See #1. Try making a tank, becoming actually competent, and convincing the playerbase to not treat tanks like dirt. Yes, I have 2, I refuse to PuG with either

3) This may help PvP queues, but then you lose any sort of server rivalries you may have had. WoW did this and it completely destroyed the PvP community.

4) Life sucks. Find something to do while you wait. I personally like to farm for money while I wait.

[AlexDougherty]

From what I remember they never said that at all....they said its an absolute last resort and would take a very long time to implement since its "advanced technology"

 

"There are a couple of reasons – first off, it’s a significant technical achievement, and we felt that pursuing it would not allow us to get the feature to you guys as quickly as it needs to happen. Secondly, most of the design team thinks that it’s not necessarily good for the community"

 

"I can definitely say that Cross-Server Queueing is not in the plan for it. We’ve taken a hard look at Cross Server Queuing in the past and accomplishing it is a *significant* challenge that would take a lot of time away from other things we are working on. Emphasis on significant. It’s not forever off the table but it’s not in the plan right now."

 

The last word from anything cross-server was from 6 months ago, which was in regards to PVP and they said they havent planned anything for it. Lets be real here, we are talking about a dev team that took 1 and a half years to get a copy+paste character transfer happening.

 

They also have people saying that they want to do it, but your probably right about it not happening.

 

But one small point, character transfers are not copy and paste, people think they are, but they really aren't, it's a tad more complicated, and people can loose achievements and items. I've even seen one person assume that transfers are automated, there is no evidence one way or the other for that, but several people (with friends at EA) say it isn't.

[Infernixx]

The solution to this problem is two-fold:

 

1) Tanking and healing must be made attractive enough/fun enough to draw more players into those roles.

 

2) Group Finder must be made attractive enough to draw those healers and tanks into the queue.

 

Other games have answered #2 by giving bonus rewards to healers and tanks for finishing their version of FPs. I don't know if that's the way to go, but it's an possibility.

 

Perhaps a grab-bag that contains stims/adrenals, credits and/or the chance at a rare-drop weapon or bit of armor.

 

I realize this is neither an ideal solution, nor original, but I don't think that should keep us from giving it a shot.

[Digimanbyte_ID]

Can't say much about PvP, but I disagree for PvE.

 

Cross queue servers will not help PvE much because it's just more DPS waiting in the queue. The real question that needs to be addressed is why there are queues. The reason is not that there aren't enough tanks or healers but in my view the reasons are the following:

 

Poor rewards for FP's. FP rewards become obsolote very quickly. So why do them?

There are enough tanks and healers but they AVOID the GF for pugging.

 

Cross server queues do not solve these two issues. It's so easy to get 69 gear now with ops and oricon dailies that you don't need FP's anymore. How do you resolve that?

 

Tanks especially avoid pugging because it tends to cost them more credits than it gains them. Why waste your time on them? Stupid DPS who get their groups killed and totally undergeared healers are the two main reasons I stopped tanking in pugs. How do you resolve that?

 

Seriously, all servers surely have the same issue with queues. If you do cross server it just means the same problem on a larger scale and increased ninja looting on top of that.

 

While I think those are very great points, the fact is with Cross Server implementation done correctly players can causally play at anytime during the day without worry of a dead server because its to early or to late at night and population is low.

 

As much as you think your points seem like they justify the use as useless its rather short sided and close minded, this doesn't solve the problem for some people who just want some casual running with other players doing instances.

 

Its a sad truth in the game that right now this population problem stems from time frames of other players. Waiting in Queue while asking in General chat if someone wants to help will do little good if that only goes out to the area the requesting player is on.

 

Lets face it other MMO's are superior when they go cross server to help streamline the progression. In fact its one of things WoW is superior at in the MMO industry.

 

Anyway with Galactic Starfighter, I have tested on the PTS and levels seems to have nothing to do with the Queue system. Its an entirely different game mechanic and I am completely sure there will be no shortage of players queuing for it as it is a very fun and unique game experience of its own caliber.

 

I hope others who read this post are reassured that cross realms will benefit the communities and casuals in the long run. Its already a declared success with other MMO's who implemented this program.

 

I am still shocked that EA, the most aggravatingly crusty cheap skates who care about a bottom line haven't been forcing Bioware to implement this system, given their aggressive attitude towards telling developers what to put in games they think would be successful.

[Digimanbyte_ID]

The solution to DPS complaining about long queue times can be solved in 3 words and zero BWEA developer hours:

 

 

Roll A Tank.

 

 

This has been your public service message for the day. Please carry on with your requests for someone else to solve a problem for you that you could instead solve for yourself.

 

As to the off hours thing, yep, totally different solution.

 

And if Rainbows lead to gold right? As much as you seem to think thats a solution, there is reason why it fails hard. The time involved with leveling and the grinding of gear would make this completely unfeasible given the fact that some people aren't interested in Tanking. Basically telling to go Tank or Go home is a stupid short sighted excuse that solves nothing. If you want to help please give out helpful advice. But if your only solution is to tell these DPS to go roll something they don't enjoy then you might as well begin beating a dead horse to resurrect it into a unicorn.

 

Because buddy, what you want will never happen. No matter how much you feed your narcissistic nature into thinking you are being clever by repeating a type of phrase you could hear from a dime store politician's excuse list.

[Infernixx]

Long story made very short, there will 'always' be far more DPS than tanks or healers.

 

So, the solution isn't to pool everyone into the same pool. That solves nothing. The DPS are still going to be there, only instead of being in a queue attached to your server, you're attached to all servers. And as many people have seen, people tend to treat others badly when there's no repercussions of that bad behavior.

 

I feel it's best to try and entice healers and tanks into the queue rather than open up the can of worms that is cross-server queues.

 

Give the players a bit of a reason to roll a healer and/or a tank and maybe we'll see more of them in queue. Give them a reason to queue up, as well, and that problem may become bearable for everyone.

 

Yes, I'm suggesting a goody-bag bribe type solution for tanks and healers. I'm okay with that, bring on the Dark Side points.

[Andryah]

Long story made very short, there will 'always' be far more DPS than tanks or healers.

 

For PvE, yep. Cross server won't change it, in fact it might make it worse for some servers.

 

Interestingly enough.. this is a PUG problem, for which there is no cure. Guilds generally solve this problem by organizing and playing within the guild family.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Andryah

[Mazikeen]

The solution to this problem is two-fold:

 

1) Tanking and healing must be made attractive enough/fun enough to draw more players into those roles.

 

2) Group Finder must be made attractive enough to draw those healers and tanks into the queue.

 

EA can't do anything about either of these things. GF already gives daily comm bonuses. The problem is the playerbase. People have allowed trolls and spoiled kids to run the show.

 

Then DPS start listening to the tanks, healers actually heal (though TBH most healers are fine) and people stop treating tanks like dirt, you'll see more PuG. We're out there, but most of us refuse to use the GF to run PuGs with people who don't appreciate us. Telling us to move faster, skip mobs we know we shouldn't, pulling for us and being overall jerks doe snot make us want to join you for a random FP we can easily get done with guildies.

[DarthTHC]

And if Rainbows lead to gold right? As much as you seem to think thats a solution, there is reason why it fails hard. The time involved with leveling and the grinding of gear would make this completely unfeasible given the fact that some people aren't interested in Tanking. Basically telling to go Tank or Go home is a stupid short sighted excuse that solves nothing. If you want to help please give out helpful advice. But if your only solution is to tell these DPS to go roll something they don't enjoy then you might as well begin beating a dead horse to resurrect it into a unicorn.

 

Because buddy, what you want will never happen. No matter how much you feed your narcissistic nature into thinking you are being clever by repeating a type of phrase you could hear from a dime store politician's excuse list.

 

Keep making excuses for DPS who don't want to fix the problem; only complain about it.

 

It's not tank or go home. It's tank or quit complaining. Every DPS has the ability to solve his own "my queue is too long" problem, and that's roll a tank. If any DPS chooses not to solve that problem himself, he is making that choice and shouldn't complain about the negative impacts of choices he makes.

 

Actually, that's wrong. Tank or quit complaining isn't the only option DPS has.

 

They could also learn to play well as DPS and make friends with tanks and healers. Bad DPS are plentiful. Truly good DPS get noticed. Play well, get noticed, get on tank and healer friend lists, and maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to play as a DPS while getting a tank- or healer-fast queue.

 

Want to know the best way to learn to play well as a DPS? Roll a tank... But I digress.

 

What's that? DPS doesn't want to play well or tank or heal but still want stunningly fast queues? The only advice I can offer them is to pound sand. They are the reason healers and especially tanks are loathe to queue.

 

EDIT: This is a really good, recent post describing why a knowledgeable, experienced tank doesn't tank so much in randoms. It also contains high-level advice for DPS about how to fix that (and it never says, "roll a tank").

Edited November 18, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Andryah]

Keep making excuses for DPS who don't want to fix the problem; only complain about it.

 

It's not tank or go home. It's tank or quit complaining. Every DPS has the ability to solve his own "my queue is too long" problem, and that's roll a tank. If any DPS chooses not to solve that problem himself, he is making that choice and shouldn't complain about the negative impacts of choices he makes.

 

Actually, that's wrong. Tank or quit complaining isn't the only option DPS has.

 

They could also learn to play well as DPS and make friends with tanks and healers. Bad DPS are plentiful. Truly good DPS get noticed. Play well, get noticed, get on tank and healer friend lists, and maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to play as a DPS while getting a tank- or healer-fast queue.

 

Want to know the best way to learn to play well as a DPS? Roll a tank... But I digress.

 

What's that? DPS doesn't want to play well or tank or heal but still want stunningly fast queues? The only advice I can offer them is to pound sand. They are the reason healers and especially tanks are loathe to queue.

 

EDIT: This is a really good, recent post describing why a knowledgeable, experienced tank doesn't tank so much in randoms. It also contains high-level advice for DPS about how to fix that (and it never says, "roll a tank").

 

/Agree.

 

Good tanks and healers are likely more often then not... playing with guild mates or friends. Which frankly is the way the core of MMOs are designed to be... COMMUNITY play.

 

The whole concept of making MMOs more and more PUG friendly has not and never will solve an issue with random DPS wanting instant access to good tanks and healers. It does in fact exacerbate the issue as it encourages strangers playing with strangers in a disposable manner.. which is the antithesis of MMO community play.

[StarMagus]

There is nothing about being a Tank or a Healer that makes somebody a better person. I've run across just as many ((percentage wise)) tanks and healers with bad attitudes who lord over the fact that they are "more important and more needed" than anybody else.

 

Just saying, this thread was getting abit thick with blaming hateful DPS, and seemed to ignore that tanks and healers can be just as big of jerks, if not worse because people are less likely to call them on it.

[Mazikeen]

Basically telling to go Tank or Go home is a stupid short sighted excuse that solves nothing. If you want to help please give out helpful advice. But if your only solution is to tell these DPS to go roll something they don't enjoy then you might as well begin beating a dead horse to resurrect it into a unicorn

 

If DPS can't be bothered to invest the time into leveling and gearing a tank (and on top of that, the time into learning fights and general mechanics) then tell them to stop assuming they know more than those of us that do.

 

* Tell DPS to stop pulling

* Tell DPS to stop rushing us

* Tell DPS to stop whining

* Tell DPS that if I, as a tank, make a decision then it's been made for a reason and to stop arguing with me

* Tell DPS that my job is to know fights, lead the group and make sure that people don't die (unless the DPS is a moron or the healer fell asleep)

* Tell the DPS to stop rolling on tank gear if it's an obvious upgrade for me (since inspecting players is allowed in this game)

 

If you can't convince DPS to do the listed things then yes, 'shut up and roll a tank' will remain the go-to response. We do not play that role to put up with whining, spoiled little brats that think they can't be replaced. We play that role because a) it's needed and b) we enjoy it. When we stop enjoying it we stop caring if it's needed

 

That said, there is no justifiable reason for tanks to be complete tools unless there's a good reason (like argumentative DPS when the run is going smoothly). If the tank makes a choice, feel free to ask them why once or twice. After the second 'odd' decision, if the tank seems to know what they're doing, shut up and do what they tell you to. If they act like a squirrel on meth then yeah, argue all you want.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Mazikeen

[Mazikeen]

There is nothing about being a Tank or a Healer that makes somebody a better person. I've run across just as many ((percentage wise)) tanks and healers with bad attitudes who lord over the fact that they are "more important and more needed" than anybody else.

 

Just saying, this thread was getting abit thick with blaming hateful DPS, and seemed to ignore that tanks and healers can be just as big of jerks, if not worse because people are less likely to call them on it.

 

'Better people' meaning personality and kindness, I agree

'Better people' meaning more knowledge of mechanics and fights, I disagree. Tanks have to know everything DPS needs to know, everything healers need to know, and additional things that neither has to worry about

 

Yes, tanks can be complete tools, but those typically (though not always) fall into one of two categories: a) old-school tanks that tire of the same crap day after day for 5, 10, even 15 years and b) DPS that queued as tank (geared or not) but don't have the desire or mindset to actually be a real tank

Edited November 18, 2013 by Mazikeen

[loudent]

There are two things that must be considered with cross server queues

 

The first is the math. It basically boils down to : If the bottleneck is different on the various servers then cross server queues will have the ability to, overall, shorten queues. If the bottleneck is pretty much the same across the servers then there is no overall decrease in total wait time although individual experiences may vary.

 

The second issue is a little more interesting. It's the sociology of the matter. Will people be less inclined to use the group finder if queues are cross server? It's possible that it will exacerbate the problem.

 

Since the devs had said this is a time-consuming and costly change I'm not sure it's worth the cost for *possible* minor improvements and *possible* worsening of the situation.