why are sentinels the "lightsaber masters"?

[Kawabonga]

Premising i have had some sword training, it has always struck me as blatantly obvious that dual wield >> single wield

 

I'm surprised everyone goes on about lore and doesn't mention about single wield and dual wield in actual history. Everyone wielded either a sword and a shield or two swords. Why is that?

 

Because a sword, especially a light one, can easily be wielded with one hand, and having the other hand doing nothing is a disadvantage (or a non-advantage). Wielding one sword with two hands is also not very practical, since the movements are harder to master and essentially not more effective, since what you gain in power you lose in mobility. The double hand wield (the Jedi Guardian stance) is the stance used for great swords, which doesn't make much sense using a lightsaber, which is almost weightless.

 

Forget the star wars universe, or any other fictional universe where the writer has decided that one guy will beat the other, no matter the skill or style. Someone who masters dual wield is guaranteed to chop down someone who only has one sword/saber and an empty offhand (in swtor there is no real, tangible offhand for single blade wielders, just some weird looking thing that pops up when you place a guard).

 

Have a think about what you gain with dual wield mastery: while no one is perfectly ambidextrous, essentially it doubles the possibility to both attack and parry.

Stick in force arguments if you will, but in terms of pure saber dueling dual wield is the real masters' way.

[slafko]

I'm surprised everyone goes on about lore and doesn't mention about single wield and dual wield in actual history.

 

Second post says "hi".

[Kawabonga]

Second post says "hi".

 

Fair enough still, one post in 3 pages isn't exactly a lot

[Senrie]

Premising i have had some sword training, it has always struck me as blatantly obvious that dual wield >> single wield

 

I'm surprised everyone goes on about lore and doesn't mention about single wield and dual wield in actual history. Everyone wielded either a sword and a shield or two swords. Why is that?

 

Because a sword, especially a light one, can easily be wielded with one hand, and having the other hand doing nothing is a disadvantage (or a non-advantage). Wielding one sword with two hands is also not very practical, since the movements are harder to master and essentially not more effective, since what you gain in power you lose in mobility. The double hand wield (the Jedi Guardian stance) is the stance used for great swords, which doesn't make much sense using a lightsaber, which is almost weightless.

 

Forget the star wars universe, or any other fictional universe where the writer has decided that one guy will beat the other, no matter the skill or style. Someone who masters dual wield is guaranteed to chop down someone who only has one sword/saber and an empty offhand (in swtor there is no real, tangible offhand for single blade wielders, just some weird looking thing that pops up when you place a guard).

 

Have a think about what you gain with dual wield mastery: while no one is perfectly ambidextrous, essentially it doubles the possibility to both attack and parry.

Stick in force arguments if you will, but in terms of pure saber dueling dual wield is the real masters' way.

 

 

Why does this go against everything I've heard about about the effectiveness of dual wield being a mostly fictional construction, and that it's actually impractical rarely used?

[Emperor-Norton]

Why does this go against everything I've heard about about the effectiveness of dual wield being a mostly fictional construction, and that it's actually impractical rarely used?

Because it is easy to use one sword for parry and the other for striking. The basic strategy of dual wield is to use the defensive hand to occupy the opponents Single Weapon, and then strike at what is unprotected with the offensive weapon. Dual Wield wasn't used much historically since a Shield offers a much better defense. However Star Wars Lightsabers is more like Fencing, where there are just swords and no shields. So someone with the ability to coordinate both Swords is at the advantage, especially since Lightsabers are virtually weightless.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Emperor-Norton

[ArenCordial]

Dual Wield wasn't used much historically since a Shield offers a much better defense.

 

Plus the shield also served as a very effective weapon, which a lot of people incorrectly think it was a purely defensive armament.

[slafko]

..., especially since Lightsabers are virtually weightless.

And yet they fly and spin around as if they were perfectly balanced swords.

This always bugged me about my sentinel.

[Marb]

The original design was that advanced classes that could tank were only tanks (each advanced class had two skill trees). Some of the in game flavor text and dialog may still reflect this. They then introduced a third skill tree which added a new role for most of the classes, like tank tree for assassins and healer tree for commandos. Guardians were given a dedicated dps tree with those additions.

 

I'm not sure how the shared trees were supposed to work in that original design. I would be interested to hear how it used to work from anyone who was in those early beta tests.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Marb

[Kawabonga]

And yet they fly and spin around as if they were perfectly balanced swords.

This always bugged me about my sentinel.

 

I have never heard about people actually throwing swords to be honest... anyway the weight of a lightsaber technically is the weight of the hilt, which is a pretty small object and very easy to balance.

 

Why does this go against everything I've heard about about the effectiveness of dual wield being a mostly fictional construction, and that it's actually impractical rarely used?

 

Dual wield is a difficult art to master, not just any soldier would try to do it, especially since a shield is a very effective defensive tool whilst still having an offensive use, and in both war and duels the primary concern was to stay alive.

 

Musashi is the first example that comes to my mind. He was a rounin in feudal Japan the 1600s. He fought over 60 duels during the course of his life and he was undefeated. Guess how many swords he wielded ?

 

Dual wield may very well be rarely used because of the difficulty of becoming good at it, let alone master it, but it's not a fictional construction and it definitely isn't impractical.

[Ravrohan]

I've studied swordplay all my life, eastern and western styles. The history of different styles, the physical side and in more than one case the spiritual philosophy behind several. Dual wielding has always been a favorite style of mine to personally execute as well as watch. A master in full motion is like physical poetry to my eyes. I didn't bring it up because I believed it didn't matter so much for this conversation, the weapons in question are fictional, and the OP had a great question. Lightsabers would also come up, and I was lucky enough to be apart of a discussion with a professional fencer and physicist who both dual classed as huge Star Wars nerds (like me ) there's also a great article on Wookiepedia.com. I recommend the site for any lore questions anyone has: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber

 

The greatest draw back of dual wielding in the real world, and why it never really caught on in most places swords were used as the mainstay, is that it's difficult to effectively use in a war setting. When you compare it to the simple but highly effective use of shields, or the the stopping power and ability to be used against cavalry of a large two handed sword, dual wielding just wasn't practical. Even more so when you realize how much easier it is to use those weapons. Most of human history didn't even use swords, the spear was the bread and butter of warfare.

 

I'd love to see a lightsaber spear (Lightpike) in game sometime.

 

Musashi was famous for his "Two Heaven as One" style. The pairing of the katana with the wakizashi, but he didn't commonly use it on the battlefield. It was a dueling style rooted on what he saw of western sailors that came to trade. Indeed if you read his book "Go Rin no Sho" the Book of Five Rings, you see that he is a big proponent of not swearing by any one weapon, but being flexible enough to use whatever is best suited to the situation and is at hand. Be that one sword, two, a spear, or an oar he carved into the shape of a Big flippin sword on his way to a duel.

 

To find a culture that used two swords in actual warefare you would need to look to south east Asia. Thailand and Vietnam had a history of dual wielding. I've been told ancient Egypt did as well, but I was never shown any proof of that.

 

On the subject of lightsabers and weight. The blade doesn't have weight, however the ignited lightsaber is supposed to have a gyroscopic effect that pulls the blade upright. All those spins actually have practical use! They would be needed to not only keep from cutting the wielder, but also make the necessary movement of righting the beam practical. This means strength is needed to safely use the weapon. Not only for this reason, but kinetic energy does play its part in how hard you get hit. A light flick of the wrist may hurt but won't kill, while a full bodied swing will certainly cleave something.

 

I'll stop there, since I didn't intend to crit anyone with a wall of text, I hope this helps some though.

[Smuglebunny]

There is a basic logic that says if one is good then 2 is twice as good.

 

second, Lightsabers DO have weight. The saber is supposed to be a tight plasma loop that is held by a gravity field of some kind. So swinging it around can be VERY difficult. (supposedly) That's why only force users use lightsabers. In addition to the fact that you need a greater sense of awareness to use such a dangerous thing. Sentinels are the weapon masters cuz they can fight proficiently with 2 of these weapons.

 

In reality 2 sabers is not better than one. BUT if lets say, you had super human strength and speed and awareness and some psychokinetic powers having 2 sabers would in fact be better. Cuz you are swinging around twice as much destruction. Perhaps the throws are aided my force power etc.

 

Makes total sense from a S.W. universe perspective.

[slafko]

I have never heard about people actually throwing swords to be honest... anyway the weight of a lightsaber technically is the weight of the hilt, which is a pretty small object and very easy to balance.

 

It's not about balancing the hilt of the lightsaber. It's about the lightsaber being perfectly balanced when ignited and behaving like a boomerang when thrown.

[byteresistor]

Dual-wielding did not suddenly become superior, it's been that way probably since we - as a species - started writing things down.

In the real world dw is inferior and there have been only a handful of people troughout history who have been able to make it work. Looking more "cool" doesn't make it more practical.

[Paneth]

The only thing I can say is when I do use two weapons in the SCA, one is used to block and lock the opponents weapons while the other is used to stike with, when done correctly, this has the the benifit of allowing me to defend and attack at the same time. People seem to think when you use two weapons your constantly attacking with both, your not, at least I dont.

 

You might ask yourself, why not use a shield in the offhand? Because they can be heavy and bulky, and for some restrict movement.

 

As to why the game itself does this, cant tell you. I would just say ignore what the game says, its often wrong.

[slafko]

In the real world dw is inferior and there have been only a handful of people troughout history who have been able to make it work. Looking more "cool" doesn't make it more practical.

That right there is the kind of superior I was talking about.

[Diatlas]

Although I agree with everything you said. I take it a step further with live combat. I am by no means an expert but I have trained in the past with different forms of weapons; swords, nunchucks, staffs, etc and dual wielding is the pure offense/defense form. Having a blade in each hand is extremely difficult to control effectively in comparison to one, like you said in lightsaber form it exemplifies it even more so. Dual wielding takes control, focus, training, instinct, and awareness of virtually everything going on around you. Very dangerous to perfect and use aggressively.

 

My only gripe in the gaming sense is that dual wielding can be used defensive too, one blade always used for blocking, parrying, etc while the other one is being used aggressively. I just wish they considered this in the tree design. Just the type of defense may actually cause damage also.

 

Now this makes sense, i could see a new AC for sentinel in this regard. Kudos for the afterthought. Now if only they could make it happen.

[Ashuranrx]

When you pick your AC, the trainer explains that "sentinels are the lightsaber masters of our order". Why sentinels and not guardians included? What makes the sentinel the lightsaber master? Cuz they dual wield? Did dual welding suddenly become superior over the single blade? I don't understand this.

 

Dual Wield has always been superior than single blade. The Jedi is based on real life Samurai culture. And the greatest samurai of all time, Miyamoto Musashi, dual wields katana. Therefore, if the greatest Samurai ever lived proved that dual wield is superior, then he also proved that dual wield lightsabers is superior because Jedi is based on Samurai.

[olcraft]

Dual Wield has always been superior than single blade. The Jedi is based on real life Samurai culture. And the greatest samurai of all time, Miyamoto Musashi, dual wields katana. Therefore, if the greatest Samurai ever lived proved that dual wield is superior, then he also proved that dual wield lightsabers is superior because Jedi is based on Samurai.

 

Dual wielding isn't always superior. Against heavily armored opponents, wielding a larger two handed sword is much more effective. If your opponent has a shield too, dual wielding is pretty useless. Also your parries can be easily overwhelmed with brute force given that your single blade opponent is just as physically strong as you are.

[Sarlegant]

Few people can master one hand over the other... you're generally right handed or left handed, and some can do some things with both.

For example, I am right handed, write right handed. I can throw with either hand, but I cannot throw with both hands simultanously. It's just not possible to have the footwork to get the power in the motion.

 

That's my problem with SWToR duel wielding. Every toon in the game, is right handed. You simply cannot achieve a powerful swing from oppisite directions, because of footwork. We've seen plenty of evidence, that even though the lightsaber blades are weigthless, there is power in the swings.

 

Now keep in mind, with a wall of text, I could explain this... but to keep it brief, assume and fill in the blanks.

 

Because of footwork, if I was a single blade master, I would use footwork to defeat a duel wielder... defensive, simply move away from the right hand, or offensively move into the right hand... circle left, or circle right.

 

Anyway, without the wall of text, I don't agree that duel-wielding is more lethal than single wielding.

[Aeneas_Falco]

Its a gameplay mechanic.

 

But if you want a lore explantion I'd guess that dual-wielding effectively probably takes a lot more concentration or connection with the force, since the force must be used to effectively guide the strikes and parries of two sabers rather than one. Multi-tasking, basically.

 

That isn't to say that all of the orders best 'swordsmen' are Sentinels, just that dual-wielding effectively is probably more difficult and can only be taught to padawans that are a cut above their peers.

[stormdrakelord]

I would just like to say, that dual wielding lightsabers would be stronger offensively, but requires that you keep your single-wielding opponent off-balance. that is why it is harder to master than the single saber.

 

Single Saber: More easily controlled, can be used more defensively as a parrying tool.

 

Two Sabers: more damage but much harder to control, best chance at winning is to be constantly on the offensive. Reason sentinels are somewhat squishier then guardians (aka, need defensive Cooldowns more often than guardian).

[Sappharan]

Dual wielding isn't always superior. Against heavily armored opponents, wielding a larger two handed sword is much more effective.

 

Olcraft, that does not make much sense. We're discussing sabers--energy weapons, not physical weapons.

 

If your opponent has a shield too, dual wielding is pretty useless. Also your parries can be easily overwhelmed with brute force given that your single blade opponent is just as physically strong as you are.

 

That makes a little more sense, but the force can be called upon to greatly exceed physical limitations. Most people would agree that speed kills. Admittedly, this is subject to dispute and rebuttal, but I believe rapiers and other quick, precise weapons are what lead to the obsolescence of armor, not bigger stronger melee weapons.

[olcraft]

Olcraft, that does not make much sense. We're discussing sabers--energy weapons, not physical weapons.

 

 

 

That makes a little more sense, but the force can be called upon to greatly exceed physical limitations. Most people would agree that speed kills. Admittedly, this is subject to dispute and rebuttal, but I believe rapiers and other quick, precise weapons are what lead to the obsolescence of armor, not bigger stronger melee weapons.

 

That guy was discussing musashi and historical real-life swordfighting. There was a reason that Dual-wielding wasn't popular in historical battles.

 

Also if you want to discuss how lightsabres don't behave like real life swords, you are right in that energy weapons are different from physical weapons. But the lightsabres as we know don't exist in this game. If everything was realistic, everyone should die in one hit. Also ranged attackers would have much much harder time killing jedi and siths. Instead you keep hitting others with a lightsabre as if you are hitting them with a blunt club and they still don't die.

 

Full plate armor fell into disuse due to development of armor piercing firearms not rapiers. Rapiers were meant for civilian self defense and duels originally. It wasn't designed to be used against armored opponents.

 

Lastly force can be called upon to enhance your physical strength as well as speed. But given that both fighters have same physical strength, skills, and force power, whoever is dual wielding will have harder time parrying against the other who is wielding a single lightsabre with two hands. It is a common sense. You can parry and attack more often with two lightsabres. But your blows are not as nearly powerful as they could've been if you were wielding a single lightsabre.

[Fazaani]

I guess we all agree that this conversation is pure speculation and more lore based... At least there's no way to make any sense with it

[Fazaani]

Speculation about physics ppl assume to know with fairly "unknown" power (force)... Edited December 3, 2013 by Fazaani