Commando Changes Brainstorming

[TheSupaCoopa]

You are one of the prime examples of why I don't have anything nice to say.

 

Why? What has anyone done to you IRL? Are you just unable to be nice or do you do this because you hide behind your little mask of anonimity?

[TheSupaCoopa]

Why? What has anyone done to you IRL? Are you just unable to be nice or do you do this because you hide behind your little mask of anonimity?

 

Also, if stupid and pointless conversations such as this continue, BW will pass by this thread. Get back under your bridge or help out.

[cs_zoltan]

Third to say.

Obviously i dont wrote a heal rota (was that from you sarcasm i dont understand?), just tried to explain why the scoundrel is the better single target healer, of course this has to do with his ammo managment and emergency instant heals/hots, by pointing out the maximum that can both healers dish out, at the same time with best energy use of course.

And it was late in the night, i make a mistake about the heal output from the commando, its less, more about 55-56k, so nearly exactly the scoundrel output.

I prefer kolto bomb over the small med probe, because kolto bomb is instant and can not be interrupted (its a pvp point of view)

Iam curious what you would change to max. the output without destroying the energy regeneration of the comm healer, just wrote (iam not checking every day, but i will see it, promise).

I made a parse instead

 

 

00:46:04.460 Sänsa's Emergency Scan heals Sänsa:Blizz for 4459.

00:46:05.228 Sänsa's Kolto Shell heals Sänsa:Blizz for 1067, causing 480 threat.

00:46:07.298 Sänsa's Healing Scan heals Sänsa:Blizz for 3848, causing 454 threat.

00:46:10.063 Sänsa's Kolto Shell heals Sänsa:Blizz for 1039, causing 467 threat.

00:46:10.365 Sänsa's Proactive Medicine critcally heals Sänsa:Blizz for 914*, causing 457 threat!

00:46:10.663 Sänsa's Kolto Missile heals Sänsa:Blizz for 2731, causing 120 threat.

00:46:11.601 Sänsa's Kolto Missile heals Sänsa:Blizz for 371.

00:46:12.702 Sänsa's Healing Scan critcally heals Sänsa:Blizz for 7169*, causing 996 threat!

00:46:12.969 Sänsa's Kolto Shell heals Sänsa:Blizz for 1001, causing 223 threat.

00:46:13.686 Sänsa's Kolto Missile critcally heals Sänsa:Blizz for 704*, causing 317 threat!

00:46:14.590 Sänsa's Rapid Scan critcally heals Sänsa:Blizz for 10364*, causing 702 threat!

00:46:15.683 Sänsa's Proactive Medicine heals Sänsa:Blizz for 492, causing 246 threat.

00:46:16.137 Sänsa's Kolto Shell critcally heals Sänsa:Blizz for 1939*, causing 713 threat!

00:46:16.285 Sänsa's Healing Scan critcally heals Sänsa:Blizz for 6987*!

00:46:17.004 Sänsa's Rapid Shots heals Sänsa:Blizz for 413.

00:46:17.514 Sänsa's Rapid Shots heals Sänsa:Blizz for 413.

00:46:18.007 Sänsa's Rapid Shots heals Sänsa:Blizz for 413.

00:46:19.102 Sänsa's Kolto Shell heals Sänsa:Blizz for 1024, causing 460 threat.

00:46:19.326 Sänsa's Proactive Medicine critcally heals Sänsa:Blizz for 859*, causing 429 threat!

00:46:19.854 Sänsa's Rapid Scan heals Sänsa:Blizz for 5235, causing 842 threat.

00:46:22.079 Sänsa's Healing Scan heals Sänsa:Blizz for 3902, causing 452 threat.

00:46:22.681 Sänsa's Emergency Scan heals Sänsa:Blizz for 4184.

00:46:25.097 Sänsa's Proactive Medicine heals Sänsa:Blizz for 469.

00:46:25.427 Sänsa's Kolto Shell heals Sänsa:Blizz for 971, causing 437 threat.

 

 

71711 heals and you end up with 23 heat (77 ammo). Oh and don't forget about the 10% armor and 5% damage reduction buff. Can a scoundrel do that? I don't think so

Last to say.

I say it again, what you are doing is just strange, to call for a scoundrel healer nerf instead to bring constructive and detailed ideas to bring commando healer up.

And why you call the scoundrel op?. Is it the output, then the sage is better, but til know you dont call for a sage nerf. You call scoundrel op and say commando healer is the best single target healer, but the scoundrel is the same kind of healer (single target respectively four-person healer, only hardcore players spam the doubled stack hot on 8 persons). Explain please.

Because scoundrels are op, and energy management nerf is the most logical choice to bring them in line. Sage is fine, and Mando is almost fine. Mando is the strongest single target healer with ok AoE heals, the only downside is that if you screw up the ammo management or you are forced to do it (stupid dps, dead 2nd healer etc etc) you have no ways of recovering. Fixing that all healers would be equal in PVE

Your vague idea to buff the ammo managment (to what level?), which i would agree that solves some of the commando probs and would him bring to very good burst healer again, on the other hand its always easy to say for every class - just pimp the energy regeneration, but solve not the main pvp issues, so your point of view seems only pve.

I always said that my point of view is PVE, so idk why are you surprised by that.

Edited November 11, 2013 by cs_zoltan

[schooch]

Also, if stupid and pointless conversations such as this continue, BW will pass by this thread. Get back under your bridge or help out.

 

BW supposedly already is reading this thread. I am contributing by pointing out obviously bad ideas.

[Citinetty]

Sage is fine, and Mando is almost fine. Mando is the strongest single target healer with ok AoE heals,

 

play some PVP and see, how any average skilled Scoundrel/Sage will outperform you easy. Play some Matches with 2 or 3 Smashers + 1-2 Deception Sins on the other side and have fun.

 

In PVE a Commando have not that Problems like in PVP, so he really needs that Buff and is far away from "being fine".

Edited November 11, 2013 by Citinetty

[cs_zoltan]

play some PVP and see, how any average skilled Scoundrel/Sage will outperform you easy. Play some Matches with 2 or 3 Smashers + 1-2 Deception Sins on the other side and have fun.

 

In PVE a Commando have not that Problems like in PVP, so he really needs that Buff and is far away from "being fine".

 

FFS how many times do I have to say it. I'm talking about PVE PVE P.V.EEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

[Citinetty]

and most of the participants in this thread talking about

 

PVP !!!!!!!!!!

 

and there, a Commando Healer isn´t a great Single Target Healer, isn´t the "Burst Healer", isn´t good under Pressure and so on. No Clue what you are talking about. In PVE the Commando Healer don´t have huge problems and is a good Tank healer, but in PVE he isn´t under constant Pressure, dont needs to move that much like in PVP or needs to heal great Burst Phases on multiple Targets .........

[WannEras]

All I want on my commando healer is for diversion to be a 2.5 sec AOE stun (like Vanguards). That would save me from the 4 man gank in so many situations.

[cs_zoltan]

and most of the participants in this thread talking about

 

PVP !!!!!!!!!!

 

and there, a Commando Healer isn´t a great Single Target Healer, isn´t the "Burst Healer", isn´t good under Pressure and so on. No Clue what you are talking about. In PVE the Commando Healer don´t have huge problems and is a good Tank healer, but in PVE he isn´t under constant Pressure, dont needs to move that much like in PVP or needs to heal great Burst Phases on multiple Targets .........

 

I made at least 3 detailed post on what I'm talking about, so if you still don't get it i have some bad news for you.

Let me sum it up for you and other special guys:

Don't **** up PVE Mando healer to fix it in PVP!!!!

[cashogy_reborn]

All I want on my commando healer is for diversion to be a 2.5 sec AOE stun (like Vanguards). That would save me from the 4 man gank in so many situations.

 

Thats hugely unnecessary.

 

You shouldnt be putting yourself in position to be ganged up on like that, and even then use your knockback and HtL to get out of dodge.

 

Anyways, the last thing this game needs is more stuns.

[kenmc]

I made at least 3 detailed post on what I'm talking about, so if you still don't get it i have some bad news for you.

Let me sum it up for you and other special guys:

Don't **** up PVE Mando healer to fix it in PVP!!!!

 

PvE healing needs quite a bit of help as well. burst is kinda haphazard, single target is not nearly as good (feels really slow too) compared to scoundrel. In the same gear my scoundrel can heal a tank much better than my commando can. The cooldowns on advanced medical probe and bacta infusion make it so that unless you have supercharge cells up you could loose your tank. From playing all 3 classes as healers, currently sages are the best for aoe, scoundrels have ridiculous single target, and commandos are in their own category of trying to do aoe, but not doing it that well and trying to do single target and doing it ok, but not nearly as good as a scoundrel.

 

After some thought I would think that being able to throw out more than one trama probe would help out. However I think it would probably need to be limited to 2 so that they dont end up nerfing the healing or the charges too bad. Would suck to have 4 out and only have 4 charges and cost 16 a piece. Would make it useless (and I wouldn't be surprised if they did something like that to keep balance with a change like that).

 

I also think that reducing the cooldown on advanced medical probe by 1 or 1.5 additional seconds would help with evening out the flow of the commando's rotation (at least in pve, might help some in pvp but still a long time to wait while medical probe is interrupted).

 

For a top of the tree talent bacta infusion sucks. The cooldown (21 seconds without set bonus) is to long for a medium sized heal, even if it's free. A sage's top tier skill, salvation has a 15 second cooldown but it stays up for 10 seconds leaving only 5 seconds of down time. For a heal that can add up to over 50% of their healing in some situations. Scoundrel's top tier kolto cloud has the same 15 second cd and lasts for 6 seconds. I understand that they cost energy/force for these abilities, but there is still an incentive, and the ability to use more often than bacta infusion. I'd suggest reducing the cd by maybe 2 or 3 seconds to make it so it's available more often, and keep the healing the same. However also adding some extra utility to it. either make it so that it can add kolto residue (or since it's bacta infusion you could call it bacta residue), or add a HoT to it.

 

Second to last thing (I know i've been going on for a while) which is something that I've also seen mentioned a few times before. Making it so that hammer shot crits can give you some amount of energy back (similar to diagnostic scan on scoundrel). Since commandos can use hammer shot on the run that could be considered too much to make it exactly the same since diagnostic scan cant be used on the run, so maybe make it a percentage lower than 100. Possibly: crits from hammer shot have a 40/80% chance to generate 2 ammo. That along with keeping it so that you can't hit yourself with hammer shot I would think would make ammo management a little easier without overpowering it too much to where almost any idiot can manage their ammo (like scoundrels can almost be at times).

 

Last thing would be something that would visual look neat in pve and would be of help in pvp. Getting rid of the big green "come kill me" beam for hammer shot. I would think changing it to something where it was the same animation as hammer shot normally is but with a slightly bigger green beam. That way if people are paying close enough attention they can still tell what it is, but it's not the great big beacon that it currently is.

 

Well that's all I got right now. Those are things that I feel would help go a ways to getting at least the pve single target healing closer to what would make commando healers more hm op friendly. I don't pvp much on my commando so I'm not sure if any of this would help a whole lot in that aspect (other than my last point).

[theSCARAYone]

Can you sticky this thread please Eric? Thanks in advance.

[Citinetty]

 

Last thing would be something that would visual look neat in pve and would be of help in pvp. Getting rid of the big green "come kill me" beam for hammer shot. I would think changing it to something where it was the same animation as hammer shot normally is but with a slightly bigger green beam. That way if people are paying close enough attention they can still tell what it is, but it's not the great big beacon that it currently is.

 

 

Can´t understand this. Changing the Animation of Hammershot would force me to stop playing my Combat Medic in PVP. It doesn´t matter and making no difference if you use it or not. Good Players will mark you as Healer within the first 10 Seconds of a Match and then constantly attacking you. And Bad Players aren´t interesting in what you do.

 

I always use Hammershot in PVP on my Teammates, and i´m being not more attacked then i would not use Hammershot. It clearly make no difference. I run in Novare Coast up to the hill, spamming Hammershot, and standing behind my team, doing my job, let my Green Beam dance around and no one interesting. And if i´m being attacked, the use of Hammershot isn´t that reason.

 

Good Players will see, that i´m the Healer, after im throwing my first Kolto Bomb, doing the first Cast. So, against good Players it doesn´t make a difference if you use it or not. They wil mark you and constantly attacking you the whole match. And they will do this also, when you not using Hammershot a single time.

 

The Animation is cool, and i hope they never change it.

[Prisoner]

Can´t understand this. Changing the Animation of Hammershot would force me to stop playing my Combat Medic in PVP. It doesn´t matter and making no difference if you use it or not. Good Players will mark you as Healer within the first 10 Seconds of a Match and then constantly attacking you. And Bad Players aren´t interesting in what you do.

 

I always use Hammershot in PVP on my Teammates, and i´m being not more attacked then i would not use Hammershot. It clearly make no difference. I run in Novare Coast up to the hill, spamming Hammershot, and standing behind my team, doing my job, let my Green Beam dance around and no one interesting. And if i´m being attacked, the use of Hammershot isn´t that reason.

 

Good Players will see, that i´m the Healer, after im throwing my first Kolto Bomb, doing the first Cast. So, against good Players it doesn´t make a difference if you use it or not. They wil mark you and constantly attacking you the whole match. And they will do this also, when you not using Hammershot a single time.

 

The Animation is cool, and i hope they never change it.

 

No. You're wrong. I have all three healing classes between valor ranks of 70 - 85, and in my expierence it's a major problem.

 

Positioning yourself well where you can break LOS and not be picked up on immediately is key for survivability. On my operative, I can wait in stealth until people start taking damage and the fight gets rolling. On my both my operative and sage I can dump heals and hide behind pillars/corners/balconies which gives me some time before they figure out where I am. On my commando? They know where I am from the very second I light off that beam and are constantly reminded of where I am over and over and over becasue there's no choice but to use it.

 

And yes, good dps will be looking for you, but it will take them longer for them to figure out where you are. On top of tha,t on an operative or sage, you can still lose them after you die and reposition or by vanishing, running through a crowd, using pillars to break LOS, etc... and that gives you less pressure and more time to triage your team.

 

So bioware, please don't listen to this person. The green beam of come kick my *** has got to go, or at least be made so that it's only visible to Repubic players. Either that or you really need to get rid of the pushback mechanisim completely and make heavy armor actually mean something so we can facetank all of the damage coming our way.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Prisoner

[Citinetty]

when i´m playing my DD-Twinks, it don´t have to search longer for a commando heal if he is not using his hammershot. You are talking ****. Using Hammershot making no difference.

 

Hopefully they never change that, cause of pve'lers like you. I´ve done a lot of matches, and i often use hammershot and let my "green beam" dance around, and i´m not getting more attacked than other healers.

 

as i said:

 

Good Players in Opponent Team will mark and constantly attack Healers after 10 Seconds. They will see, when anyone gets heals, will see where the Heal came from and who the Healer iss.

 

Bad Players arent interesting whatever a Healer do. They stupidly doing damage on your tank while you standing 5m behind him and heal him.

 

Yes, everyone can see that green Laserbeam, and its a great Shield "hey look, i´m healing my mates!!!". But i´ve played also a much Warzones (currently VR9 93, with my Combat Medic) and since i started to use Hammershot as Filler and to manage my ammo better, in my experience i don´t get more attacked then before.

 

 

If your Argument would be good, then we have to change the effect of Kolto Bomb to. That green Ball flying around and that green Gas on the ground is nearby the same "hey look, anywhere is a commando healer" mark........

Edited November 12, 2013 by Citinetty

[Prisoner]

when i´m playing my DD-Twinks, it don´t have to search longer for a commando heal if he is not using his hammershot. You are talking ****. Using Hammershot making no difference.

 

Hopefully they never change that, cause of pve'lers like you. I´ve done a lot of matches, and i often use hammershot and let my "green beam" dance around, and i´m not getting more attacked than other healers.

 

Yeah, man, I'm a real carebear. That's why have four toons between valor rank 70-85, three of which are healing classes.

 

Do you even have the other two healing classes? Have you ever played them at 55 pvp? Do you even have any expierence or basis for comparison? Go roll one, play it for awhile at level 55 and see for yourself how much quicker one gets picked up over the other.

 

I mean, hey, keep chest thumping and slinging insults, and **** talking about how godly you are and how everyone else are scrubs. Doesn't change the fact that you're just flat out wrong. I already have my tricked out, min/maxed op and sage that in an average match that doubles the healing ouput of any poor sap that still plays this broken class in pvp.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Prisoner

[Citinetty]

i edited my post ^^

 

I have an Operative at 55 and played it as a Healer in 55 PVP too, but not enjoyed it very much. The Mechanic isn´t that for me.

 

And i didn´t say, you are a carebear and have no clue what you are talking about. In my Opinion, the "Green Beam" doesn´t make the Life for a Combat Medic more dangerous. And the AoE Heal of Sages/Sorcs is a great sign for opponents as well, to see "hey, there is a sage/sorc heal around"

 

When 8 People comes my way, all bubbled, i know instantly, that there is a sorc heal and look for him. And after 5 Seconds, after his first Cast, i´m attacking him. And it needs no "green beam" to see that.

 

For me, it doesn´t making any difference. Between throwing Colto Bombs and Casting Medic Probes i let my Green Beam dance around my Teammates. Against good Teams i got constantly attacked, but not more then other Healers.

 

And when i´m playing my operative, i´m also constantly being attacked against good teams. And i have no green beam with him.

 

 

It doesn´t making any difference if you use it or not. Any average (!!!) skilled player will see that you are a healer, and he will see it also, when you don´t use Hammershot. Try going in a Warzone, and don´t use Hammershot. You will also being attacked. And then, go in a Warzone, use Hammershot whenever you can and you will see, you will not get attacked more.

[Prisoner]

i edited my post ^^

 

And i didn´t say, you are a carebear and have no clue what you are talking about. In my Opinion, the "Green Beam" doesn´t make the Life for a Combat Medic more dangerous. And the AoE Heal of Sages/Sorcs is a great sign for opponents as well, to see "hey, there is a sage/sorc heal around"

 

When 8 People comes my way, all bubbled, i know instantly, that there is a sorc heal and look for him. And after 5 Seconds, after his first Cast, i´m attacking him. And it needs no "green beam" to see that..

 

Does the big golden puddle heal from my sage light up the ground for everyone to see? Sure. Do the bubbles telegraph to good players that there's a sage around? Yes. Will good players be constantly looking for you? Absolutely.

 

It still takes them time though to figure out exactly where the hell I am, and/or which sage is the one casting the puddle if there are more than one of us in the match. And on the puddle I can dump it and run around the corner/behind a pillar,/etc... which makes them hard for them to find me. Which is why I don't have a problem with Kolto Bomb - because you can toss it and move.

 

Where the green beam is just constantly reminding people exactly where you're standing. You can't do what I do on my operative and vanish, move to another pillar/balcony/corner pop out and start healing incognito again while everyone's attention has focused. You can't zoom through a crowd of players with force speed like on my sage and lose them in the chaos because the second you stand still and light off that hammershot, they know exactly where you are again.

[cs_zoltan]

PvE healing needs quite a bit of help as well. burst is kinda haphazard, single target is not nearly as good (feels really slow too) compared to scoundrel. In the same gear my scoundrel can heal a tank much better than my commando can. The cooldowns on advanced medical probe and bacta infusion make it so that unless you have supercharge cells up you could loose your tank. From playing all 3 classes as healers, currently sages are the best for aoe, scoundrels have ridiculous single target, and commandos are in their own category of trying to do aoe, but not doing it that well and trying to do single target and doing it ok, but not nearly as good as a scoundrel.

 

No, no, no just no. It has been said at least a thousand times (not just by me, but also by renowned theorycrafters like KBN) that commando single target healing > scoundrel single target healing

[Zoom_VI]

I am fairly sure that the giant droid that drops from the heavens to surround a player with a green effects is a much bigger giveaway than the laser is.

[ArchangelLBC]

No, no, no just no. It has been said at least a thousand times (not just by me, but also by renowned theorycrafters like KBN) that commando single target healing > scoundrel single target healing

 

Is that potential single target healing (and therefore only relevant when talking about top tier healing) or average actual single target healing (what you can expect from the average commando healer you invite to your group)? If potential I believe you, but if commandos are significantly under scoundrel healers on average (due to high skill cap) then there definitely needs to be a usability buff.

 

My understanding is that commando healing requires a pretty strict adherence to your rotation in order to stay ammo neutral. This, to my mind, presents a significant weakness for the class during chaotic moments. PVE encounters which have been done enough can significantly reduce the frequency of this chaos, but all PVP encounters are inherently more chaotic, which is one reason we see such a disparity in that area.

 

Therefore, while the single target healing potential should be maintained, the usability should be adjusted to allow for more flexibility.

 

Also, as mentioned, Green Beam of death needs to flat out not be visible to the other team. They can't see our target markers. Why should they see Hammer Shot animation?

[Altheran]

Also, as mentioned, Green Beam of death needs to flat out not be visible to the other team. They can't see our target markers. Why should they see Hammer Shot animation?

 

It can keep being seen, if it becomes much less noticable. Are Mercenaries really bothered by their little green needle shots ? The last time I read a complaint, it was about its noise.

 

In my opinion, they can take the green projectile of Kolto Bomb (still unburst), maybe make it smaller, make 2-3 of it go straight from the cannon to the target very fast, and the new healing Hammer shot is ready to go live.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Altheran

[theSCARAYone]

It can keep being seen, if it becomes much less noticable. Are Mercenaries really bothered by their little green needle shots ? The last time I read a complaint, it was about its noise.

 

In my opinion, they can take the green projectile of Kolto Bomb (still unburst), maybe make it smaller, make 2-3 of it go straight from the cannon to the target very fast, and the new healing Hammer shot is ready to go live.

 

^ PLEASE do this Bioware.

[PhatMcMuffins]

anyone who thinks mando/merc actualy IS the best single target healer is completely drinking the BW Koolaid. Any op or even sage worth their salt will outheal an equally skilled mando on a single target (and especially aoe, but thats not the point here)

 

this is not just from a PvP perspective but holds even more true in PvP. Operative puts out faster heals (that hit as hard as the mando) while the sage puts out harder hitting heals.

 

Couple this with the worst energy management and most susceptibility to interrupts/knockbacks/pushback and you end up with the most lacking healer (still arguably the most fun, however)

[cs_zoltan]

anyone who thinks mando/merc actualy IS the best single target healer is completely drinking the BW Koolaid. Any op or even sage worth their salt will outheal an equally skilled mando on a single target (and especially aoe, but thats not the point here)

 

this is not just from a PvP perspective but holds even more true in PvP. Operative puts out faster heals (that hit as hard as the mando) while the sage puts out harder hitting heals.

 

Couple this with the worst energy management and most susceptibility to interrupts/knockbacks/pushback and you end up with the most lacking healer (still arguably the most fun, however)

 

Hahahahahahahahaha, wait you are serious? Stop spamming Rapid Scan/Medical Probe baddie