Operative DPS Brainstorming

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

It never went anywhere o.0

 

You still have it, it's called preparedness as of 2.0 and doesn't cost TA's to maintain.

 

Stim boost the cooldown is just a free TA + regen. Could be more noticeable though.

 

Yes, the old stim boost did go somewhere, out the door with 2.0...

 

Stim Boost of yonder years was awesome. It gave lethality Operatives 10 energy with every use AND the energy regen for only 1 TA. That was the good old days when operatives had good DPS...

[TheLivingFro]

As far as class balance goes, I'm not a fan of huge, sweeping changes and redesigns when small, effective tweaks will due just fine.

 

For lethality, the reliance on shiv as the only reliable method of gaining TA in prolonged fights is annoying, especially considering all of the other abilities in the rotation have a range of 10m or more. Shiv is what keeps lethality ops stuck in melee range, where the lack of certain survival talents or defensive cooldowns is made apparent.

 

It has already been made clear by the community that overload shot is a less than desirable ability given the energy cost vs what we gain. It almost seems like it be a prime place to be a secondary source of TA. If overload shot also granted TA, it's benefits per energy investment suddenly becomes much more palatable in addition to the moderate damage it does. This would also open up lethality operatives to be a skirmisher class, able to occupy that 6-9m sweet spot where their survivability improves substantially in PVP and up to 10m away in PVE encounters.

 

Should adding this functionality to overload shot prove too counter productive to your former plans to rebalance the ability, you could instead add the ability to generate TA to sever tendon to somewhat address the awkward state of lethality's range requirements.

 

As for improving the survivability of concealment, perhaps you can grant concealment operatives a boost to defense chance based on the number of stacks of TA they currently have. An increase of 10-15% per stack would give them a nice boost to their "slippery" nature in melee range indeed.

 

A more conventional approach would be to go forward with swapping talents from the medicine tree to the concealment tree, my suggestion being swapping evasive imperative for shadow operative elite(minus the bit about increasing stealth levels) or making calculated frenzy a 2 point skill and swapping it with a 3 point version of evasive imperative.

[Racter]

Concealment needs 30% AOE DR and a talented 25% DR talent period. Unless they remove rage/focus and AP from the game we will never be an arena viable melee class without this. All these ideas about buffing our defense chance are a waste of time, you can't dodge smash or flamethrower. Double smash AP tank or double/triple madness AP tank can kill a concealment operative in 3s or less with cleave damage. This can happen to lethality ops too but if they had a 10m range TA generator it would be more or less avoidable. Still probably die in a hard switch without the DR talents. An instant cast heal on 30s cd would complement shield probe enough to solve the rest of our survivability problems.

 

30s cd on vanish, force camo, buffed shield probe, a huge amount of defense chance, all these things are nice ideas but without AOE DR MINIMUM it's just pissing in the wind. Hold the line or unstoppable type effect on sneak or countermeasures would be nice, but as is right now the second we open on someone we get hard stunned and raped.

 

Damage wise, another 20 energy in the top tier from talents or removing the cost on acid blades would solve them imo. Gives you enough energy to keep your snare up, cleanse yourself and actually use our gap closer more often without totally destroying energy regen. Spec is super easy to kite at the moment, more so than any other melee class in the game. While warriors can leap and sins can force speed, our gap closer doesn't do anything but burn a huge chunk of your energy bar if you're snared. We are the only melee class with this disadvantage. I don't want us to be as annoying as a rage mara to try and kite (IE, borderline impossible if the marauder isn't bad) but I don't enjoy spamming rifle shot because any remotely decent sorc/pt/whatever can keep us at 5M+ indefinitely effortlessly.

 

I just want our dps specs to be ranked viable. We don't need that much to get there. We need a lot to be optimal, but optimal is not what we should be shooting for atm IMO.

[warultima]

I just came back to the game (and is already thinking about cancelling my subscription again for the 3rd time), its depressing Concealment is still kept so terrible when deception has received so many buffs. I PvP, and pretty much only PvP, and SWTOR's pvp balance is just so out of wack, I dont even know where to begin.

 

IMO only thing operative really needs is overall buff to concealment.

1st of all, Hidden Strike (and all other similar coming out of stealth 1 time attacks) in most other triple A title MMOs have a way to be made "very likely" to crit, especially Hidden Strike damage is very underwhelming unless it crits (and even if it crits it doesnt even hit as hard as some other repeatable attacks like many deception Sins have).

 

Use Rift for example Assassinate (same as Hidden Strike but no knockdown) has +50% crit chance when used coming out of stealth and there's also a 30s cooldown ability to allow all stealth only attack to be used while outside of stealth. For PvE, Rift has a coming out of stealth bleed attack that offers higher DPS but little burst.

 

If the goal is NOT to give operative more burst, you must give concealment more out of stealth survivability like deception Sin getting their 6s 25% mitigation.

 

Backstab needs its cooldown to be lowered to 6s again to ensure smoother rotation and game play (backstab will also help with energy management).

 

More reliable proc of collateral damage (since its damage is very low), or lower internal cooldown for the proc, and/or give the proc an energy regeneration effect.

 

Acid blade should either be given higher armor penetration, higher damage or the dot to be made to stack to 2 stacks (to enable AB+HS followed by AB+BS, which will enable more rotation flexibility (higher burst bad energy efficiency or lower burst better energy efficiency).

 

Exfiltrate itself is so wacked since its pretty much your only survivalibility yet using it putting you outside of your effective dps range, the 25% damage mitigation from Deception Sin coming out of stealth (and can be used with sneak outside stealth). This is something concealment could really use (eg better out of stealth survival without buffing its burst damage).

 

Lastly, CONCEALMENT NEEDS 30% AOE REDUCTION LIKE ALL OTHER MELEE CLASSES HAVE. (why dont we have it already?).

Edited November 1, 2013 by warultima

[wollegol]

I already left my thoughts on changes but I want to give another suggestion. You must have noticed in your metrics and feedback that operative dps is 2 "dead" specs in competitive PVP. With 2.5 you are nerfing the survivability even more, now ops can be pulled and jumped to when they are in cover. I understand that the healer tree needed a nerf but it also affect the dps trees. You now acknowledge that the operative dps "need some love" but now we might expect changes in 2.6, that is many months away. So for the variety of the AC please do some changes for 2.5.

[sqruee]

You now acknowledge that the operative dps "need some love" but now we might expect changes in 2.6, that is many months away. So for the variety of the AC please do some changes for 2.5.

 

I really hope the point of these Brainstorming threads is to effect actual change for 2.5 instead of delaying further adjustment until 2.6 and onward. Even if the devs only took one of the various suggestions made here it would still be better than leaving the current 2.5 changes alone. They already stated in the scoundrel answers thread that they were considering moving one of the survivability talents from the medicine tree to concealment, so here's hoping we see that change on the final 2.5 patch notes. This would also be consistent with the new "consistent small balance changes" philosophy that seems to be in place.

[Ahebish]

Hey everyone,

 

As you are no doubt aware, we are being careful in how fast and how drastic we make Class changes. Although we are starting that journey in Game Update 2.5, that is certainly not all of the changes that will happen in the future. As a part of that, one of the things we agree on is that DPS Operatives could use a little bit of love.

 

The reason I am making this thread, is that we are curious on what your ideas might be for your class! This is specifically for Concealment and Lethality. What changes would you like to see to those specs to give them a little bit of help in PvE and PvP.

 

I am going to be combing through this thread and passing your feedback on to the Combat team. I do want to add a disclaimer to this. Just because a suggestion is made in this thread, or even agreed on by multiple posters, in no way implies it will be put into the game. The purpose of this is to share ideas. At the end of the day it will still come down to the decisions of the Combat Team! This is just an opportunity to add some player insight to the discussion.

 

If you are more of the Scoundrel persuasion, there is a separate thread for that, here.

 

-eric

 

Honestly, this is the first time a yellow name has said anything positive for concealment/scrappers.

 

With that I will show proper respect;

 

1. We need our damage back, even more so in light of level caps, and increased damage potentials of every other dps class in the game.

 

2. Despite many many people saying we need better utility I disagree with this to the highest degree of disdain.

 

3. Our damage was, can, and will be our survivability.

 

4. I do not expect our resistance to damage to change for the better, in fact I advocate NOT doing so. (In other words we do NOT need better defensive CD's)

 

5. I also find it grotesque that people advocated the roll skill was necessary; While I agree it has it's tactical advantages, THIS CLASS NEVER NEEDED IT! All we needed was our damage back.

 

In short, Give us the ability to completely decimate a target 1v1, unless a healer or tank is involved. By that I mean, if we are fighting say a DPS class like a sin, or mar, or jug, or sorc; It is by far unreasonable that we should annihilate them in a 1v1 fight with "spike" damage as opposed to "dps" They are in fact 2 different damage styles. Unless where applicable a healer is involved with this fight, or a tank (guard) I can justify not being able to kill such people.

 

I also want scrappers and concealments to be notorious for destroying a healer, or tank spec individually but not when paired together for obvious reasons. In short scrappers/concealments bread and butter should be to lock down 1 of the 2 healer/tank classes regardless of spec such that it forces them to separate thus removing the bonus the two have when working in pairs.

 

I do not advocate any changes to any DPS class; In fact back before 1.3 I was a big advocate of the Assassin and Shadow boost as I felt they were to weak for what they were designed to do.... Since then they have obviously been tweaked to a point I feel is justified and making them a huge threat.

 

Lastly, I am of the opinion that a few things need to be improved for this class;

 

1. A proper set bonus applicable in PVE and PVP or give us the ability to make the bonus interchangeable between the 2 game types via mods.

 

2. Auto crit chance for our opening attack (mandatory)

 

3. For the love of god, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give us our 9 sec CD back on backstab.

 

4. Give us our 50% armor pen back. (if we get 9 sec cd on backstab I can ignore the armor pen suggestion)

 

4. Increase the damage of Acid blade dot (that is increase it's damage output over the same duration 6 seconds)

 

5. Remove the requirement of poison effect from our DPS line; It's useless most of the time, make Poison dart actually do something useful, The amount of damage it does over time is far to weak to be useful, it can be dispelled so it's useless for preventing stealth classes from re-stealthing. All in all I feel it's one of the most useless skills we have (excluding Lethal's dependency on it in which case leave it as a dot for that spec exclusively)

 

6. This class SHOULD be a glass cannon class; Weaker than sins defensively, but stronger in burst damage than any other DPS spec; I would gladly give up ALL of my defensive CD's for more damage, such as energy regen, roll, shield probe, I would ask to keep evasion however as it is.

 

7. Remove the ability to use explosive probe or any high damage ranged attack such as snipe etc. simply because this class is better suited in spec as full melee with some minor range damage skills.

 

8. To be honest, I don't even feel we need a speed boost of any kind with sneak or whatever.

 

9. Change sever tendon to become impossible to resist by any means.

 

10. Lower the CD of: Distraction from 12 seconds down to 9 seconds. Operatives have the highest CD on their interrupt skill compared to most if not all other classes in the game, and rely on it more in certain fights than any other class in the game.

 

Sure I know some of these suggestions may be on the extreme side; but since a yellow name is talking about it; "Aim high, and hope bioware will meet us in the middle somewhere"

 

My 2 cents... taken with a grain of salt due to a bitter experience with over nerf'ing of this class.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Ahebish

[wollegol]

Honestly, this is the first time a yellow name has said anything positive for concealment/scrappers.

 

With that I will show proper respect;

 

1. We need our damage back, even more so in light of level caps, and increased damage potentials of every other dps class in the game.

 

2. Despite many many people saying we need better utility I disagree with this to the highest degree of disdain.

 

3. Our damage was, can, and will be our survivability.

 

4. I do not expect our resistance to damage to change for the better, in fact I advocate NOT doing so. (In other words we do NOT need better defensive CD's)

 

5. I also find it grotesque that people advocated the roll skill was necessary; While I agree it has it's tactical advantages, THIS CLASS NEVER NEEDED IT! All we needed was our damage back.

 

In short, Give us the ability to completely decimate a target 1v1, unless a healer or tank is involved. By that I mean, if we are fighting say a DPS class like a sin, or mar, or jug, or sorc; It is by far unreasonable that we should annihilate them in a 1v1 fight with "spike" damage as opposed to "dps" They are in fact 2 different damage styles. Unless where applicable a healer is involved with this fight, or a tank (guard) I can justify not being able to kill such people.

 

I also want scrappers and concealments to be notorious for destroying a healer, or tank spec individually but not when paired together for obvious reasons. In short scrappers/concealments bread and butter should be to lock down 1 of the 2 healer/tank classes regardless of spec such that it forces them to separate thus removing the bonus the two have when working in pairs.

 

I do not advocate any changes to any DPS class; In fact back before 1.3 I was a big advocate of the Assassin and Shadow boost as I felt they were to weak for what they were designed to do.... Since then they have obviously been tweaked to a point I feel is justified and making them a huge threat.

 

Lastly, I am of the opinion that a few things need to be improved for this class;

 

1. A proper set bonus applicable in PVE and PVP or give us the ability to make the bonus interchangeable between the 2 game types via mods.

 

2. Auto crit chance for our opening attack (mandatory)

 

3. For the love of god, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give us our 9 sec CD back on backstab.

 

4. Give us our 50% armor pen back. (if we get 9 sec cd on backstab I can ignore the armor pen suggestion)

 

4. Increase the damage of Acid blade dot (that is increase it's damage output over the same duration 6 seconds)

 

5. Remove the requirement of poison effect from our DPS line; It's useless most of the time, make Poison dart actually do something useful, The amount of damage it does over time is far to weak to be useful, it can be dispelled so it's useless for preventing stealth classes from re-stealthing. All in all I feel it's one of the most useless skills we have (excluding Lethal's dependency on it in which case leave it as a dot for that spec exclusively)

 

6. This class SHOULD be a glass cannon class; Weaker than sins defensively, but stronger in burst damage than any other DPS spec; I would gladly give up ALL of my defensive CD's for more damage, such as energy regen, roll, shield probe, I would ask to keep evasion however as it is.

 

7. Remove the ability to use explosive probe or any high damage ranged attack such as snipe etc. simply because this class is better suited in spec as full melee with some minor range damage skills.

 

8. To be honest, I don't even feel we need a speed boost of any kind with sneak or whatever.

 

9. Change sever tendon to become impossible to resist by any means.

 

10. Lower the CD of: Distraction from 12 seconds down to 9 seconds. Operatives have the highest CD on their interrupt skill compared to most if not all other classes in the game, and rely on it more in certain fights than any other class in the game.

 

Sure I know some of these suggestions may be on the extreme side; but since a yellow name is talking about it; "Aim high, and hope bioware will meet us in the middle somewhere"

 

My 2 cents... taken with a grain of salt due to a bitter experience with over nerf'ing of this class.

 

I would actually love for concealment to become a glasscanon again. But in retrospect bioware have nerfed all glasscannon trees in the game, PT pyro for example. I think they worry about new and not so skilled players being obliterated by veterans and more skilled players. Personally I think that is going to be the case in every MMO no matter what.

 

The problem for concealment is that they didn't raise the survivability as they nerfed dps output. But as I said, I like your idea, it would make a difference between the sins and ops in playstyle. Make concealment a dangerous "lone wolf" class but keep the survivability down.

[Morde_]

Honestly, this is the first time a yellow name has said anything positive for concealment/scrappers.

 

With that I will show proper respect;

 

1. We need our damage back, even more so in light of level caps, and increased damage potentials of every other dps class in the game.

 

2. Despite many many people saying we need better utility I disagree with this to the highest degree of disdain.

 

3. Our damage was, can, and will be our survivability.

 

4. I do not expect our resistance to damage to change for the better, in fact I advocate NOT doing so. (In other words we do NOT need better defensive CD's)

 

5. I also find it grotesque that people advocated the roll skill was necessary; While I agree it has it's tactical advantages, THIS CLASS NEVER NEEDED IT! All we needed was our damage back.

 

In short, Give us the ability to completely decimate a target 1v1, unless a healer or tank is involved. By that I mean, if we are fighting say a DPS class like a sin, or mar, or jug, or sorc; It is by far unreasonable that we should annihilate them in a 1v1 fight with "spike" damage as opposed to "dps" They are in fact 2 different damage styles. Unless where applicable a healer is involved with this fight, or a tank (guard) I can justify not being able to kill such people.

 

I also want scrappers and concealments to be notorious for destroying a healer, or tank spec individually but not when paired together for obvious reasons. In short scrappers/concealments bread and butter should be to lock down 1 of the 2 healer/tank classes regardless of spec such that it forces them to separate thus removing the bonus the two have when working in pairs.

 

Your approach would make us overpowered in regs, and even worse in arenas.

 

The bad players would complain to no end about getting globalled like they did in the past and we'd be even more underrepresented in arenas.

 

Yes it's always fun to 2-shot an undergeared sage healer in the back line, but having a true glass cannon in arenas would be a nightmare to play with and a breeze to counter.

 

I admire your spirit but I sincerely hope Bioware doesn't listen to this post.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Morde_

[Ahebish]

To be honest, I didn't feel other classes needed to be nerf'd on DPS... though many people suggested it.

 

I was against it... just not publically... and the reason was simple.... One day they might fix concealment/scrappers and turn them into the glass cannon class they were from the start;

 

If we think about the game evolution since launch... undisputed concealments/scrappers were the strongest DPS'ers at the start.

 

Since then the class has been over nerf'd while other dps classes were over buffed.

 

But, I wasn't upset about other classes getting boosted.... even now... I wish they hadn't been "fixed".

 

Because then bioware could afford to give concealments/scrappers what they originally started the game with..... "Very high burst... medium to low dps and weak defensively"

 

I personally feel bioware shot themselves in the foot; and I don't hold much faith personally that they will do anything for this class to make it stand out from any other dps spec, because they have castrated the class from it's greatest asset; "Burst" Damage.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Ahebish

[Ahebish]

Your approach would make us overpowered in regs, and even worse in arenas.

 

The bad players would complain to no end about getting globalled like they did in the past and we'd be even more underrepresented in arenas.

 

Yes it's always fun to 2-shot an undergeared sage healer in the back line, but having a true glass cannon in arenas would be a nightmare to play with and a breeze to counter.

 

I admire your spirit but I sincerely hope Bioware doesn't listen to this post.

 

Define regs? You mean pug PVP where people are undergeared? That's how it used to be, and that was the original reason for why the class got nerf'd... Geared people were 1-2 shotting undergeared people, and noone could understand why?

 

(Yet noone complained about smash jugs doing it to mutlples of people 3-5 at a time, and yes smash spec used to hit the same damage numbers then as it does now, except now those numbers are higher than they were before. I even knew a guy back in 1.2 who would hit 8k+ crits on smash as a jug, yet I look at my concealment hitting 1700 damage on hidden strike, I felt impudent against some specs. Not only were they strong offensively but they were very strong defensively. Which I was ok with, but for the love of god give us our damage back is all I'm asking.)

 

It was simple; Get gear, don't get 1 shotted.... ALL PVP in EVERY mmo is virtually the same in that regard.

 

You should NOT expect to destroy someone who outgears you... added to the fact that person may be highly skilled.

 

You can't balance skill you can only balance gear... and that's what Bioware did, while nerf'ing the class into oblivion... Now I can justify some of the nerfs, but most of them I cannot. And because noone thought outside of the box... you have what we have today... a useless spec in PVE, and a gnat spec in PVP.

 

Now that being said however; Let's talk about ranked/rated. You don't walk into a gun fight with a knife. That's what Ranked/rated wz were. A gunfight where people brought a knife.

 

Arenas? I've done many many arenas in more broken pvp systems than this; And I still managed to crush high ranked players with less gear, because as I said before you CANNOT balance skill.

 

And Bioware needs to stop trying to balance skill, and start balancing the classes.

 

Right now this class is an effing joke for balance and everyone knows it.

 

Marauders, lolsmashers, and the new breed of sins/shadows proved that point TIME AND TIME again, since 1.3.

 

So, I advocate don't change the other classes.... it's easier to slightly boost 1 class than it is to nerf several classes, and hope for any amount of class balance.

 

And that is the mistake Bioware made. And it's a mistake many other MMO dev companies have made time and time again.

 

In my time since I quit do you know what the most balanced PVP system is that I've ever played? And it might shock you... But Tera has the most balanced PVP system I've ever seen in any MMO. The class balance in that game is near perfect; The rest is gear and personal skill.

 

So unlike bioware EME gets to focus on gear, rather than class balance... this game is more than 2 years old, and they still can't get class balance right yet.

 

Becuase instead of boosting the weak classes, they nerf the strong classes. It's an endless cycle of mistakes... and something has to give sooner or later.

 

It is my hope that bioware may finally realize that nerf'ing has a major consequence with class balance and concealments/scrappers are the example of what happens.

 

But, that's my opinion of course... take it for what it's worth.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Ahebish

[QuiveringPotato]

Anyone think it would be too OP to give Scrapper/Concealment a passive talent decently high up in the tree that makes it to where AoE's and DoT's won't pull us out of stealth (but we'll still take the damage)?

 

It's annoying to say that we're "slippery" when half the time we can't even stay in stealth because of all of the AoE's and the like flying around in the actual combat of a WZ.

[warultima]

Anyone think it would be too OP to give Scrapper/Concealment a passive talent decently high up in the tree that makes it to where AoE's and DoT's won't pull us out of stealth (but we'll still take the damage)?

 

It's annoying to say that we're "slippery" when half the time we can't even stay in stealth because of all of the AoE's and the like flying around in the actual combat of a WZ.

 

Give up, only real anti-damage-reveal stealth is force camouflage. You are sol.

 

Well I left the game awhile ago, stuff might have changed, but when I played my marauder, everytime I pop force camo, I can run thru like 8 different AoE (at increased speed as well) and it wouldnt reveal me.

[Bigicke]

some really good ideas in Brainstorming-threads are discussed but please: mark my own dots on target if i use lethality as operative.

 

it´s really disgusting to play with 2 other lethalitysnipers in raid because you can´t distinguish between corrosive granade or dart

[Racter]

Can we please move the discussion forward from regstar nonsense to things that will make us rated viable?

[CommanderKeeva]

In short, Give us the ability to completely decimate a target 1v1, unless a healer or tank is involved.

 

Yeah asking for the ability to just kill anyone you come across with them having no chance to fight back is completely legit. We might as well roll back the surge nerf, make adrenals usable in warzones again, add a straight-up damage boost to warzone power-ups and make the two stack again.

 

Because Operatives were able to do exactly this. The damage on Hidden Strike was just so huge with all the boosts available in the warzone that Operatives were able to stunlock people and kill them before Debilitate wore off. It was ridiculous to watch Operatives killing anyone they came across with 3-4 hits.

 

There is a difference between "balancing" and "making it more powerful than everyone else." You're asking for the latter.

[wishihadaname]

Concealment got nerfed early on for a very good reason. It was technically balanced, but it wasn't fun to play against. The way in which you balance a glass cannon is by making the assumption that if they are engaged by someone else while blowing up their prey, they are in trouble. The point where this fails is that the prey has no say in any of this. They get jumped unexpectedly out of stealth, killed before they can respond, and at best someone else then pressures/kills the op. The same went for the old Pyro PT, if faced by one you lost, period, though they would likely die shortly as well.

 

I think a better direction for this class to take is that of sapper/debuffer, as has been pointed out in my long writeup on lethality (see page 4). Its useful in that it weakens the enemy team, balanced in that its squishy, fun to play in that it has a lot of tools and can do decent dps, and not too annoying to play against because it doesn't it can be countered 1v1.

 

Any class that cannot be countered 1v1 by EVERY OTHER CLASS AND SPEC (I don't mean beaten, I just mean that it can be escaped, or kited, defended against in other means, ect.) is fundamentally broken because nobody likes to play against an opponent that they can't do anything about.

 

perfect example: Deception Assassins. Yes they hit like a truck, yes they are about to hit like a bigger truck (which I don't think was needed tbh), but they can be countered against because their burst takes setup. They can't kill you in the duration of a stun and there are plenty of ways to get them off yourself. As a lethality op I can always vanish after their opener, get some distance, pop cover, and start on them myself. As a gunnery commando, I don't stand a chance of beating them 1v1 but I can run away/pillar hump/DCD for a very long time and can make myself very annoying to kill. This is an example of a balanced class. However, if the assassin has a spammable root, or could kill you before you got unstunned, or could leap to you then it would be an unbalanced class because it couldn't be countered against.

[Jintel]

perfect example: Deception Assassins. Yes they hit like a truck, yes they are about to hit like a bigger truck (which I don't think was needed tbh), but they can be countered against because their burst takes setup. They can't kill you in the duration of a stun and there are plenty of ways to get them off yourself. As a lethality op I can always vanish after their opener, get some distance, pop cover, and start on them myself. As a gunnery commando, I don't stand a chance of beating them 1v1 but I can run away/pillar hump/DCD for a very long time and can make myself very annoying to kill. This is an example of a balanced class. However, if the assassin has a spammable root, or could kill you before you got unstunned, or could leap to you then it would be an unbalanced class because it couldn't be countered against.

 

Sorry but what? A deception assassin/shadow needs time to build there burst? They pop force potency in stealth, hit spinning kick (which procs there shadow strike damage buff) hit shadow strike ~7-9k - hit project ~5-6K and hit force breach ~4-5K. Thats roughly 20k damage in 3 GCDs and if you have no CC breaker they can get you below 30% (execute range) in a 4 sec stun.....if thats what you call needing time to build burst then i would love to see burst on demand....:/

[Racter]

Sorry but what? A deception assassin/shadow needs time to build there burst? They pop force potency in stealth, hit spinning kick (which procs there shadow strike damage buff) hit shadow strike ~7-9k - hit project ~5-6K and hit force breach ~4-5K. Thats roughly 20k damage in 3 GCDs and if you have no CC breaker they can get you below 30% (execute range) in a 4 sec stun.....if thats what you call needing time to build burst then i would love to see burst on demand....:/

 

Exactly this. We already have a dot/debuff tree and definitely do not need another. Please stop advocating ruining our burst spec. TBH I would like them to bring back the old adrenals and relics too. Proc relics have no place in PVP.

 

Signed

Every other concealment op and scrapper scoundrel ever

[Ahebish]

Concealment got nerfed early on for a very good reason. It was technically balanced, but it wasn't fun to play against. The way in which you balance a glass cannon is by making the assumption that if they are engaged by someone else while blowing up their prey, they are in trouble. The point where this fails is that the prey has no say in any of this. They get jumped unexpectedly out of stealth, killed before they can respond, and at best someone else then pressures/kills the op. The same went for the old Pyro PT, if faced by one you lost, period, though they would likely die shortly as well.

 

I think a better direction for this class to take is that of sapper/debuffer, as has been pointed out in my long writeup on lethality (see page 4). Its useful in that it weakens the enemy team, balanced in that its squishy, fun to play in that it has a lot of tools and can do decent dps, and not too annoying to play against because it doesn't it can be countered 1v1.

 

Any class that cannot be countered 1v1 by EVERY OTHER CLASS AND SPEC (I don't mean beaten, I just mean that it can be escaped, or kited, defended against in other means, ect.) is fundamentally broken because nobody likes to play against an opponent that they can't do anything about.

 

perfect example: Deception Assassins. Yes they hit like a truck, yes they are about to hit like a bigger truck (which I don't think was needed tbh), but they can be countered against because their burst takes setup. They can't kill you in the duration of a stun and there are plenty of ways to get them off yourself. As a lethality op I can always vanish after their opener, get some distance, pop cover, and start on them myself. As a gunnery commando, I don't stand a chance of beating them 1v1 but I can run away/pillar hump/DCD for a very long time and can make myself very annoying to kill. This is an example of a balanced class. However, if the assassin has a spammable root, or could kill you before you got unstunned, or could leap to you then it would be an unbalanced class because it couldn't be countered against.

 

I think your opinion is based on the wrong spec in question here:

 

you are asking for a lethality spec for concealment spec, when there already is one.... If you want to turn lethality into that by all means more power to you.

 

But I started a concealment op in beta with the intention of playing a stealth class that DOES NOT carry a glowstick or shoot a gun.

 

Now you want to take that entire aspect of this class away from them... You have lethality isn't that enough?

 

Deception Assassins were WEAK back in the day and EVERYONE knew it... against ANY class... they got the boost they needed and deserved; Now they are throwing out BIGGER damage than concealment ever did before all the nerf's... But noone has a problem with the fact they do 21000 damage in 3 skills which is the SAME DURATION as a pre-nerf stunlock. And they do it outside of melee range to boot.... Concealments are at least forced to be in melee range.

 

Now I didn't say change stunlock, I said give us our damage back... and back in 1.2 our damage numbers were near perfectly balanced... until 1.3 which broke the class beyond all hope... followed by all the boosts EVERY OTHER DPS spec received.

 

You say, a 1v1 fight is easy? Really now? Then why did concealments get nerf'd? Refer to my signature; It wasn't because they were overpowered... it was because people didn't learn how to fight them in these "EASY" so called 1v1's you talk about. And in a team they were extremely deadly... with the same effectiveness that Sins have now if teamed up... sins are just crazy stupid when paired up with other stealthies.

 

It was easier, to QQ about it on the forums than it was to befriend a concealment/scrapper and practice dueling them to learn how to counter it.... That's what I do when I face someone I can't beat... I ask them to duel over and over and over again... rather they know it or not.. I'm teaching myself how to beat them, beat the spec... what I can do what I can't do... That's what being competative is all about.

 

A long time ago, on my server, I got SO good at this spec, that no one on my server could beat me 1v1 in my own class... and I mean no one regardless of faction.... I was that good at how I played the class. I even destroyed people who used the double hidden strike opener as people called it... and yet NEVER used it myself.... That's what a skilled player does to be the best they can be. I would LET people attack me first, give them the advantage, because I knew how to flip the fight around in my favor... (EVEN THROUGH THE INFAMOUS STUNLOCK) I used to get challenged all the time by scrappers and other concealments.... and I would stay out of stealth, LET them have first strike, then flip the fight around and beat them.

 

The people I trained to play this spec CORRECTLY, I taught them how to flip the fight around, when they don't start off with the advantage. And everyone I taught was on my level of skill with the spec. But due to my experience with it, they still couldn't beat me.

 

Anyone can learn that, if they take the time and put in the effort.

 

That is why some of us concealments/scrappers are as good as we are... because we fight to win by any means necessary. And that's a mentality ONLY COMPETATIVE PVP'ers can maintain.

 

As much as people don't want to admit it... this spec is a PVP spec... with some use in PVE...but at it's core, it's a PVP spec.

 

Bleh, my 2 cents... grain of salt as usual.

 

P.S. just for the record, I did NOT pronounce myself the #1 concealment on my server back in the day, I was nominated for the title by the veteran PVP'ers on the server. And, I wasn't the only one who was on that list as being the best concealment, there was 1 other person as well.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ahebish

[FoE_Khorne]

 

Anyone can learn that, if they take the time and put in the effort.

.

 

Yea this is true. While concealment has some glaring issues with defensive capabilities, and some minor energy management issues; it is still a good spec in the right players hands. You seem to be under the impression that the spec is nerfed into oblivion, but that just isnt the case. Ive run both 4v4 and solo rated as concealment. Current record with concealment of 15-5 in 4v4 and 56-22 in solo. Nothing spectacular, but i dont queue that often. And not many people are willing to even try queuing with a concealment ops.. therefore most of the time i end up having to heal. (only lost 1 match so far while healing, again though I dont queue everyday.) I dont have any issues putting up 1k dps in arenas or wz. I have screens if proof is needed. This class doesnt need huge crazy damage buffs or auto crits to be viable. Ive been hanging back reading what people have to say before putting my input on this thread. I should have time tomorrow to write up a wordy post.

Edited November 4, 2013 by FoE_Khorne

[Racter]

Yea this is true. While concealment has some glaring issues with defensive capabilities, and some minor energy management issues; it is still a good spec in the right players hands. You seem to be under the impression that the spec is nerfed into oblivion, but that just isnt the case. Ive run both 4v4 and solo rated as concealment. Current record with concealment of 15-5 in 4v4 and 56-22 in solo. Nothing spectacular, but i dont queue that often. And not many people are willing to even try queuing with a concealment ops.. therefore most of the time i end up having to heal. (only lost 1 match so far while healing, again though I dont queue everyday.) I dont have any issues putting up 1k dps in arenas or wz. I have screens if proof is needed. This class doesnt need huge crazy damage buffs or auto crits to be viable. Ive been hanging back reading what people have to say before putting my input on this thread. I should have time tomorrow to write up a wordy post.

 

You seem like you understand what's really going on here, looking forward to that wordy post.

[booseye]

I have a level 55 Operative, 55 Smuggler, and a 53 Operative on a different server. My suggestions are based off of my extensive experience with the class since the game's release.

 

1. A stealth quickbar. This is arguably the biggest quality-of-life improvement you can give to Operatives/Smugglers.

2. Add a 5- or 6-second cooldown to Exfiltrate/Scamper. (Optional: Add a talent that removes this cooldown to the DPS trees.) The energy cost alone does not prevent spamming this ability.

3. Rework Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack. This is a niche heal at best in its current manifestation.

4. Lower the cooldown on Backstab for Concealment/Scrapper tree to nine seconds. It is Backstab, not Hidden Strike, that should feature more prominently in the PvE rotation.

5. Give Concealment/Scrapper tree passive dodge increase that triggers off of offensive abilities. This adds needed survivability to the spec.

6. Fold Overload Shot into Weakening Blast for Lethality tree. Streamlines the rotation.

7. Make Cloaking Screen's stealth mode unbreakable for three seconds. Survivability.

8. Add more energy regeneration to the Concealment/Scrapper tree. This spec finds itself with less energy and less damage output than the Lethality tree in PvE.

[Racter]

I have a level 55 Operative, 55 Smuggler, and a 53 Operative on a different server. My suggestions are based off of my extensive experience with the class since the game's release.

 

1. A stealth quickbar. This is arguably the biggest quality-of-life improvement you can give to Operatives/Smugglers.

2. Add a 5- or 6-second cooldown to Exfiltrate/Scamper. (Optional: Add a talent that removes this cooldown to the DPS trees.) The energy cost alone does not prevent spamming this ability.

3. Rework Kolto Infusion/Kolto Pack. This is a niche heal at best in its current manifestation.

4. Lower the cooldown on Backstab for Concealment/Scrapper tree to nine seconds. It is Backstab, not Hidden Strike, that should feature more prominently in the PvE rotation.

5. Give Concealment/Scrapper tree passive dodge increase that triggers off of offensive abilities. This adds needed survivability to the spec.

6. Fold Overload Shot into Weakening Blast for Lethality tree. Streamlines the rotation.

7. Make Cloaking Screen's stealth mode unbreakable for three seconds. Survivability.

8. Add more energy regeneration to the Concealment/Scrapper tree. This spec finds itself with less energy and less damage output than the Lethality tree in PvE.

 

None of these changes would make us even one single iota more viable for ranked.

 

Smash. Flamethrower. Death field. Thundering Blast. Heatseeker missile. Force Scream. All dots. Which of these can be dodged? You guessed it. None of them. Increasing our dodge chance will do exactly zilch for us.

 

A stealth bar for what? You have two stealth abilities. Sap and HS. Zero reason to have a separate bar for two abilities.

 

I think they could make kolto infusion instant baseline and keep the numbers the same as they are now. Add into the surgical probe talent a cast time for kolto infusion. Not sure how to word that better. Basically it would be the old revitalizers talent but for both DPS trees without giving any positive gains for healers. Would allow us to use our heals to improve our survivability instead of just being another ability we can't really use because of the energy cost *COUGH COUGH OVERLOAD SHOT COUGH COUGH *

 

I think our vanish already gives us at least a global of stealth unless we get stealth scanned. I get hit with AOEs all the time after I vanish and don't get knocked out immediately. Exceptions I've noticed being death from above and force storm. Smash, KBs and a TICK of flamethrower don't. You can also use shield probe to buy more time on this as absorbed damage doesn't break stealth. Dots will usually tick once and break me out on the second tick, plenty of time to get behind someone for a hidden strike. HOWEVER, they could give us 5-10s of guaranteed stealth after we vanish similar to force camo as any damage will immediately put us back in combat regardless of absorption. Something like this would give us an out when we start getting tunneled. They would have to sharply reduce the CD on vanish for this to be really beneficial.

 

Majorly disagree with roll comment unless roll becomes free and breaks all snares and roots. It is already a ****** gap closer and unusable as an escape in arena. If it was changed to at minimum ignore/remove snares and free a moderate cool down would be acceptable.

 

I initially thought better regen was needed but the more I think about it I wonder if more energy would be a better solution. Currently a perfect PVE rotation can keep us in the top tier, but in PVP this is impossible. We obviously need touse our CCs on cooldown and often cleanse on cool down, which immediately screws our energy over. I think giving concealment an extra 20 energy in the top tier would be a preferable alternative as it would allow us to use our gap closer, cc and cleanse as needed without prolonged periods of auto attack. This would be similarly beneficial for PVE and would actually allow our shiny new quick shot to be used! Lola

 

Just some food for thought. Without AOE DR and an actual defensive CD IE blackout anything else is pretty much moot.

 

Of course, the alternative of giving us our fangs back would be fine with me. If the other team starts down a DPS our terrible survivability is much less of a problem lol

Edited November 4, 2013 by Racter

[Arstechnica]

Hey everyone,

 

As you are no doubt aware, we are being careful in how fast and how drastic we make Class changes. Although we are starting that journey in Game Update 2.5, that is certainly not all of the changes that will happen in the future. As a part of that, one of the things we agree on is that DPS Operatives could use a little bit of love.

 

The reason I am making this thread, is that we are curious on what your ideas might be for your class! This is specifically for Concealment and Lethality. What changes would you like to see to those specs to give them a little bit of help in PvE and PvP.

 

I am going to be combing through this thread and passing your feedback on to the Combat team. I do want to add a disclaimer to this. Just because a suggestion is made in this thread, or even agreed on by multiple posters, in no way implies it will be put into the game. The purpose of this is to share ideas. At the end of the day it will still come down to the decisions of the Combat Team! This is just an opportunity to add some player insight to the discussion.

 

If you are more of the Scoundrel persuasion, there is a separate thread for that, here.

 

-eric

 

Ideas to consider:

1. Remove the energy cost for acid blade application.

2. Make Acid blade dot last longer or stronger.

3. Make Corrosive dart dot last longer or stronger.

4. Allow Back stab a cd reset either through collateral strike or going into stealth.

5. Reduce the energy cost of collateral strike.

6. Reduce the energy cost of the roll.

 

It seems like we run out of options really fast after the initial opening moves out of stealth, something needs to be adjusted to make mid fight smoother.