Dont add PvE to galactic starfighter!

[LordArtemis]

What serious issue do you mean?

 

.....

 

Maybe it would be best for me to unthink about this. Perhaps in time you will return to making logical sensible posts that argue serious issues. I look forward to that when it happens.

 

For now I'm not going stay for final act. Have fun.

[Malastare]

Sorry, but I dont respond to personal attacks anymore. However, if someone wants to discuss the actual subject of not adding PvE to GS, I'll be happy to do so.

 

No, you don't want to. You've already proven that. People have talked about the difficulties of a MMO-worthy PvE AI in 3D. You don't want to talk about that complexity. The moment anyone tried, you just continued your childish behavior. People have talked about the fact that PvP was the easy prerequisite to PvE development. You responded with dismissive sarcasm, because engaging in discussion would mean admitting that the situation isn't as clear cut as you want it to be. You ignored the idea of delivering PvP now, because it was possible, and PvE later when they had more time to work out issues, because you didn't care about PvP and --like a child who didn't get the candy they wanted-- you would rather that no one get what they want than you have to wait for the more difficult feature while other people enjoy the easy feature.

 

So, no. You don't want discussion. You just want to throw a tantrum and make a spectacle of yourself. You haven't suggested that a couple of interns copy and paste the code from X-Wing, but you're approaching the same level. I'll happily bump your thread to illustrate the fact that you don't want to (or lack the understanding to) discuss the topic at hand. I believe that one of the biggest problems with this community is that bad, selfish, or anti-social behavior is left uncontested. My point in bumping your thread is pointing out this fact:

 

You are weakening the community and showing the developers that we are unwilling to be reasonable or even listen to their explanations. That tells them that there's no point in listening to what the community says or trying to explain their decisions.

 

I am trying to show them that there are plenty of people here who are willing to listen, keep our selfishness under control, and be patient.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

People have talked about the difficulties of a MMO-worthy PvE AI in 3D.

 

I understand the 3D AI would be too hard, so its for the best that they didnt even try that. Making this system PvP only is much easier, and if people want to be able to play a free flight space system, then they can just learn to enjoy PvP. Sounds great, and I cant wait

Edited October 29, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[Nickious]

Oh, I understand the 3D AI would be too hard. Even if people have been asking for this for 2 years, its for the best that they didnt try that. Making this system PvP only is much easier, and if people want to be able to play a free flight space system, then they can just learn to enjoy PvP. Sounds great, and I cant wait

 

If thats the case, we got nothing to discuss. I'll request a close.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

If thats the case, we got nothing to discuss. I'll request a close.

 

If you have nothing else to discuss, thats fine. However, several people have replied saying they disagree and want PvE added in the future. You cant speak for them or anyone else who has yet to post

Edited October 29, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[Malastare]

I understand the 3D AI would be too hard, so its for the best that they didnt even try that. Making this system PvP only is much easier, and if people want to be able to play a free flight space system, then they can just learn to enjoy PvP. Sounds great, and I cant wait

 

See. You can't even discuss simple topics. I suspect you don't even understand the topic. Perhaps you don't even understand what AI's do. It's easier for you to simply drown your lack-of-understanding in sarcasm than to deal with the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

It is, quite seriously, a tactic that is used by young children.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

See. You can't even discuss simple topics. I suspect you don't even understand the topic. Perhaps you don't even understand what AI's do.

 

I definitely understand. In fact, I've edited AI code myself(some years ago). It was fun, but definitely not easy. And in this case, its best that they didnt try that. Folks can just learn to PvP if they want to enjoy the new free flight space system. Dont you think will be best for everyone?

[Darkulous]

The AI for TIE Fighter was horrible but damn that game was fun. One of my Top 5 games of all time.

[Malastare]

I definitely understand. In fact, I've edited AI code myself(some years ago). It was fun, but definitely not easy.

 

Ha. WIth the way you're behaving? I doubt it. You can't even act like an adult and have a reasonable conversation. AI is actually a very tricky, rather specialized field. I don't expect novices to understand. I myself only understand from an academic point of view, but that's enough for me to understand the challenges involved. No adult who had experience with AI would behave the way you are. It's hard even believing you have much experience with gaming in general, as you don't seem to be capable of actually talking about game development, which is something most adult gamers pick up eventually.

 

More importantly, you don't want to discuss it. You just keep spamming the same childish sarcasm. You could be actually discussing why PvP is easier to develop, or why delivering a limited initial implementation of a new feature is a good way of working out bugs, or maybe you could even attempt to justify your "If PvE people have to wait, everyone should have to wait" argument. But you're not. You don't want to discuss. You don't want to engage in debate or share opinions. You just want to lay on the floor and repeat the same mindless sarcasm as if it is clever, or funny, or serves some purpose.

 

What was your purpose? Can you be mature for even a moment to try and explain that?

Edited October 29, 2013 by Malastare

[mithrelkhaar]

Sure, the majority of players prefer PvE. Sure, the majority of players want PvE added to galactic starfighter. But who says the majority know best? If people want to enjoy the new free-flight space system, then FORCE them to PvP!

 

Besides, its just way too hard designing AI that can fly in space, and doing hard things isnt fun. So why bother? Dont add PvE to Galactic Starfighter!!!

 

 

Wow, just wow....

 

why even bother doing this?

 

As if there werent already a ton of posts already....you add another to the pile as if it will make a difference

 

If they wanna add it, it will get added, when they can add it...not before, and no amount of whining will speed it up

[The_Grand_Nagus]

If PvE people have to wait, everyone should have to wait

 

Sorry, but I must disagree. They will probably never do space PvE because its just too hard, so its best that they go ahead and go with the easiest route. Sorry if you disagree, but thanks for sharing your opinion

[CKHelseth]

Was reading an article a few days ago, EVE Evolved: Merging Valkyrie with EVE Online, and I caught this line towards the middle of it;

 

"It's pretty unlikely that you'll be dogfighting among actual EVE Online spaceships in realtime, as the load on the server caused by direct flight controls would be prohibitive. A simple alternative would be to have EVE Online, DUST 514 and EVE Valkyrie share the same character pool, allowing players of one game to jump into the others with the same personae."

 

I am curious if SWTOR's servers would face the same issue trying to handle the load of both persistent space PvE with direct control and the persistent terrestrial PvE. I was curious if a Dev could lend some insight as to whether or not this had an effect on implementing space PvE.

 

In addtion I wonder if Bioware sees an increase in subscribers and revenue to make the purchase additional servers dedicated to space PvE, integrate it with the existing game and develop an entire space PvE game worth it. JTL did give a boost to SWGs subscriptions but it didn't double those numbers or anything. I suspect (but in no way know) that Bioware might have come to that conclusion at this juncture and opted for the space PvP as result.

 

Since most players want Space PvE, I think it is fair to ask if they would be willing to consider a second subscription for a properly done PvE game that will meets (hopefully exceeds) peoples expectations. If this comes down to money, can Bioware ask for more if they provide the requested product or do people feel that it is something that should be covered by their existing subscription.

 

After reading this, other articles and Biowares vague statements I am wondering if this comes do to a cost/benefit analysis and space PvE just didn't appear to be worth the investment. I dunno, something I was thinking about the past day or so.

 

Thoughts? Opinions? Psychotic ramblings?

[The_Grand_Nagus]

Sorry you are so upset Malastare, but thanks for sharing your opinion and for continuing to support the thread. Hope you feel better soon Edited October 29, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[Malastare]

I'd actually love to talk about those things, but Nagus does not. He is here to suppress discussion because he's not getting his way.

 

Please start a different thread with that info so the adults can discuss it.

[CKHelseth]

might be best...

[LordArtemis]

Nagus, please, I beg you. I used to look forward to your discussions and posts, even if we did not agree. I don't know why your acting this way, but you really need to stop.

 

Enough with the silliness already. I miss the level headed sensible Nagus I used to know.

[algio]

Some of my favorite games over the years were games produced by Lucas Arts such as the X-wing series produced by David Wessman and David Maxwell with developers Lawrence Holland (Totally Games) under license from Lucas Arts. The series included Star Wars: X-Wing (1993), Star Wars: TIE fighter (1994), Star Wars: X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter (XvT-1997), and Star Wars: X-Wing Alliance (1999). In the series, which included multiple expansion packs, players could fly X-Wings, B-Wings, TIE Fighters, TIE Bombers, TIE Interceptors, Assault Gunboat, TIE Advanced, TIE Defender, Missile Gunboat, and Millennium Falcon (flying as a fighter avionics and controls not like those used in the SWTOR game for these large craft). (I personally do not like the fight avionics and controls used for the large craft PvE in SWTOR.)

 

The games even included a mission builder feature. Wouldn't a player mission builder feature be a blast to have as a SWTOR feature? Players used to post their game designs online for anyone else to play. Some of the player game designs were immensely popular with hundreds of thousands of downloads.

 

I for one would welcome and prefer a quality expansion such as single-player and multi-player PvE with my companions as wing men. The XvT and its Balance of Power (BoP) expansion pack included 8-player cooperative play. I loved playing these games with my friends. For PvE enthusiasts, cooperative play is very rewarding.

 

The series involved cut scenes, hyperjumps from one region to another, and the Millennium Falcon option for the player to either pilot the ship or man one of the turrets.

 

Many people consider the game series to be one of the best games of all time. In 1996, Next Generation ranked the game 23rd top game of all time, calling it "second to none in the genre." In a 2003 interview David Wessman and David Maxwell have stated that they would happily return to the series.

 

Not only were these games popular but they were best sellers making tons of money for the development company Totally Games and Lucas Arts.

 

If these gentlemen could produce an effective and popular PvE AI for their games 20 years ago, why is it "too difficult" today? Perhaps I am missing the point, but it seems like the statement that "developing AI for space combat being too difficult to develop" is not overly accurate. Perhaps the SWTOR development team needs to find and hire producers and programmers like David Wessman and David Maxwell.

 

Thank you for pointing out the Not Invented Here philosophy (NIH see post below). NIH seems to negate the please do not Reinvent the Wheel (RIW) philosophy. Or even with worse results the NIH seems to also negate the Learn from the Past (LFTP) philosophy. In other words, if another developer comes up with a very important innovation, the current game will not use the innovation since it was NIH. Therefore many games are doomed to mediocrity.

 

I was recently pleasantly pleased when Lord of the Rings Online (LOTRO) from Turbine added the automatic looting feature in the game. Instead of looting the dead characters, everyone in your party automatically gets their fair share of the loot and especially the quest items needed without clicking on the bodies of the dead.

Edited December 21, 2013 by algio

[PlasmaJohn]

If these gentlemen could produce an effective and popular PvE AI for their games 20 years ago, why is it "too difficult" today? Perhaps I am missing the point, but it seems like the statement that "developing AI for space combat being too difficult to develop" is not overly accurate. Perhaps the SWTOR development team needs to find and hire producers and programmers like David Wessman and David Maxwell.

This webpage should help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here

 

In all of software development, the games subset was and still is one of the worst offenders. Bioware was particularly adept at this and it looks like EA Austin has carried on that tradition.

 

post coffee edit... To be fair, their strength has always been storytelling and even despite some very questionable design decisions their stuff (sorta) works.

Edited December 20, 2013 by PlasmaJohn

[Foambreaker]

Comical thing about this thread is that in their obsession to keep GSF PvP only they pretty much hosed GSF.

 

Since new players can only learn to fly while being farmed by existing players GSF is dead, the more geared the existing players become the less new players will start.

 

And don't act like matchmaking will prevent that, there is not even enough to fill 12v12 on most servers except prime time.

[Callaron]

Comical thing about this thread is that in their obsession to keep GSF PvP only they pretty much hosed GSF.

 

Since new players can only learn to fly while being farmed by existing players GSF is dead, the more geared the existing players become the less new players will start.

 

And don't act like matchmaking will prevent that, there is not even enough to fill 12v12 on most servers except prime time.

 

Wouldn't the matchmaking also improve though? I imagine the "pool" of F2P players might be larger than the subscribers pool.

Only one way to find out I suppose, wait and see.

[Costello]

GSF as it stands will be a costly mistake for EAware.

 

Its still in early access and its become totally dull. The match making or simply lack of people playing has made the experience completely unenjoyable with casual players forced to go up against 'Aces' (a term I use loosesly but meaning better gear more experience) with team pre mades making a massive difference.

 

Now as far as I care GSF PVP could be scrapped and it wouldn't effect me, leave it in for pre-mades and Aces makes no diiference. But from the lengths of the queues and the same names appearing people are trying it and they aren't coming back, and lets face it you have to be a bit simple to find the current set up enjoyable. Its a damn sight less fun that tie fighter with a far more uneven team make up.

[Dustotepp]

I am irritated that bioware hasn't yet waved their magic coding wand that instantly translates desire to coded reality and given us PvE starfighter. It is selfish of them.

[EzioMessi]

Comical thing about this thread is that in their obsession to keep GSF PvP only they pretty much hosed GSF.

 

Since new players can only learn to fly while being farmed by existing players GSF is dead, the more geared the existing players become the less new players will start.

 

And don't act like matchmaking will prevent that, there is not even enough to fill 12v12 on most servers except prime time.

 

There's hardly any gear gap in GSF. Barely anything if at all.

 

From my very first match (Dec 3rd that is), I could see a lot of people already had a lot better gear than me. And I could still kick *** every once in a while. The once in a while was not because of gear by the way, it was simply because my playstyle sucked. 2 matches in, I realized exactly how easy it is to beat a fully geared enemy in a head-on fight.

 

What people attribute to gear gap is actually game mechanics. I'll give an example of what I thought was a gear gap at first: when all your shots have 200-300 damage yet the enemy's healthbar doesn't go down? That's actually not gear gap (although it looks like it), it's actually just the shield taking most of the damage. Use Ion Cannons, or let the shield bleedthrough do its job and soon the enemy loses about 1/5th of their healthbar with every hit.

 

If you have some other example of actual gear that makes it far too easy for players to win, please tell me about it. AFAIK most components are like "shield pen vs armor pen" or "small number of heavy torpedos vs large number of light rockets" and upgrades are like "5% shield regen increase"-kind of stuff. Hardly something that guarantees a win.

[Zorvan]

..... Edited January 27, 2015 by Zorvan

[EzioMessi]

SOE did it over 9+ years ago ( Jump to Lightspeed ), Microsoft 10+ years ago ( Freelancer ). The key is it's too hard for EAware, not too hard in general.

 

Ok. Think about it. If an expansion is being worked on for years, built from the ground up will obviously be better than GSF.

 

Think about it. You really think the *entire* Bioware team is working on GSF? It took them a *year* to give us what we have. So it's quite clear that they only have a small team working on GSF so that they can release the ground content at an equal pace.

 

They *can* make a JTL style expansion if people wanted. The thing is, that will nearly (or completely) halt the regular content patches we receive. Are you sure you want that?