Warzones/Arena please let the player decide!

[TheNahash]

Seriously..... coping skills... use em. You guys are all (all of you) smart and can find a personal solution to the current constraint. Why is it I have more confidence in you about this then you do?

 

The solution is to leave if you get an Arena. That solution screws over the rest of the players. I don't enjoy doing that.

This is an issue that should've never come up.

 

Bioware is trying to push their shiny new toy in the worst possible way - by making people quit, by having the rest of the team fight against a full group and generally by lowering queue times but raising frustration.

 

I've stopped raiding for a year now. Never once did I feel like I HAD to do an Operation because I queued... for a FP.

That is all we're saying.

 

I'm sorry Andryah, but "coping skills" is kind of a cop out answer. Saying that we should find personal solutions (like, I don't know, screwing over the rest of the PVPers) is NOT good advice.

 

Obviously, the sky didn't fall. We can still leave every time we enter a WZ/Arena or just simply stop PVPing. Neither of those are good business for Bioware.

 

PS: I know the community complains about every single thing. However, the fact that there will always be people who'll complain about insignificant things doesn't mean that those "complaints" that are rational -and that you say you support- should be met with "chill, dude" replies.

[Kaedusz]

Out of curiosity, since I never played WoW, what are their arenas like? I like that the ones here are just a big brawl with only minimal tactics required.

 

Simply put i will mentioned 2 things.

 

First,they mattered more.When you lose,you will want to break your keyboard ,mouse and desk.

Second - snipers,marauders,operative healers and jugg tanks being overpowered is nothing and a minor inconvenience here.You can still have plenty of fun with all kinds of strange setups.

WoW had real cookie cutter and class imbalance issues.And because these arenas mattered more,when you lose because of this reason,you will want to murder the developers with your own two hands.

[AlienEyeTX]

Simply put i will mentioned 2 things.

 

First,they mattered more.When you lose,you will want to break your keyboard ,mouse and desk.

Second - snipers,marauders,operative healers and jugg tanks being overpowered is nothing and a minor inconvenience here.WoW had real cookie cutter and class imbalance issues.And because these arenas mattered more,when you lose because of this reason,you will want to murder the developers with your own two hands.

 

In what way did they matter more? (honest question)

[GalacticKegger]

Out of curiosity, since I never played WoW, what are their arenas like? I like that the ones here are just a big brawl with only minimal tactics required. ***EDIT*** I mean, aside from knowing how to play your class, that is.

Think 2x2 & 4x4 MMA on a dance floor or gladiator pit with the occasional LoS obstacle.

[TUXs]

Simply put i will mentioned 2 things.

 

First,they mattered more.When you lose,you will want to break your keyboard ,mouse and desk.

Second,snipers,marauders,operative healers and jugg tanks being overpowered is nothing.WoW had real cookie cutter and class imbalance issues.And because these arenas mattered more,when you lose because of this reason,you will want to murder the developers with your own two hands.

 

Wow...sounds like W0W players have some serious anger management issues...

[Andryah]

I'm sorry Andryah, but "coping skills" is kind of a cop out answer. Saying that we should find personal solutions (like, I don't know, screwing over the rest of the PVPers) is NOT good advice.

 

It's pragmatic advice actually.

 

What are your immediate choices? Cope with it OR don't cope with it.

 

There is clearly no immediate change coming to split WZ and Arena in separate queues.

The question posed by the OP has been answered already.

 

Personally, I believe the current state is because they have an existing queue system that works.. and can handle both...... AND........ AND they have something else planned in the near term for how they create separate "play tracks" for the different content. Something different then queues. Maybe it's cross server, maybe it's not queues at all.. who knows for sure. They just have not disclosed it yet.. so we have no idea what it is. Why do I think that? Because it's actually a logical analysis of why the status quo is what it is. Why invest now on a band aid fix when you have something different and more robust coming? Think about that. I might be wrong.. but based on observations of past dev style and approach to the game (not just PvP.. so don't go down the "PvP is ignored rat hole") suggest this is exactly what is happening behind the curtain.

[Vember]

I can't understand how a pvper would not like arenas.

 

1-you get more warzone commendations for time invested in.

2-it's not a healing trench warfare fest,which sucks the fun out of pvp in wzs.

3.it's more dynamic

4.tanks and healers are not as powerful and outcome deciding as in regular warzones

5.More pvp content = good.

 

Also these arenas are not like the WoW arenas.They are just warzones but 4v4 ,not 8x8. with the added minor detail of no objectives,but it is a death match.

 

When an arenas pops when im queueing for the non-ranked queue i scream like a girl(metaphor).

 

Also the music themes are non-stop and continue to play during the entire arena.They should implement this for regular wzs too.

 

I'll explain my reasons:

 

1. 4v4 deathmatch is one step above duels in my opinion, which bore me. I like mass pvp with lots of people. 8v8 is the low end of this, but enjoyable to me.

2. I'ts less dynamic. One small room with four people beating the crap out of each other in a frenzied assault that is usually over very quickly.

3. Stealthers making the matches drag on the full time limit.

4. No objectives, see number 2.

 

I don't enjoy them. Never have, which is why i don't do them....given the choice, that is

[TUXs]

What are your immediate choices? Cope with it OR don't cope with it.

 

c) Express our desire for a separate queue...which we're doing.

[Kaedusz]

In what way did they matter more? (honest question)

 

Basic pvp gear was basically useless compared to the arena gear.There is no chance you can win vs better geared person,unless you were one of 2,3 classes(again imbalance).Here with my new 55 that has 25 k i can still outskill 30 k fully geared;augmented person.

Arena rating influences your epeen ,so losing and winning matters more to you.Much,much more.I understand this can be subjective and vary from person to person,but sooner or later if you are arena dedicated,it will infect you.

[TheNahash]

It's pragmatic advice actually.

 

What are your immediate choices? Cope with it OR don't cope with it.

 

It might be pragmatic but at the same time it's besides the point.

It's an assessment of the current situation and a statement of the -painfully- obvious choices we have.

It's not a solution - at least, not one that should be considered acceptable by a big corporation that advertises freedom of choice in its products content.

 

There is clearly no immediate change coming to split WZ and Arena in separate queues.

The question posed by the OP has been answered already.

 

Personally, I believe the current state is because they have an existing queue system that works.. and can handle both...... AND........ AND they have something else planned in the near term for how they create separate "play tracks" for the different content. Something different then queues. Maybe it's cross server, maybe it's not queues at all.. who knows for sure. They just have not disclosed it yet.. so we have no idea what it is. Why do I think that? Because it's actually a logical analysis of why the status quo is what it is. Why invest now on a band aid fix when you have something different and more robust coming? Think about that. I might be wrong.. but based on observations of past dev style and approach to the game (not just PvP.. so don't go down the "PvP is ignored rat hole") suggest this is exactly what is happening behind the curtain.

 

What is that "current status quo" that suggests they are preparing something "different and more robust"?

Based on observations of the past dev style and approach to the game... I got nothing.

They added GF 1.5 year ago and... well.. that's about it with regard to queuing for PVE/PVP.

 

Until 2.4, the queuing system for PVP had been exactly the same since launch (well, they did add Ranked Queues and stats if you can count those as serious additions).

Other than that, matchmaking is still horrible (5 healers + 3 tanks in the last warzone I was in), Premades vs Solo Queuers is still going strong (and now with Arenas, that's only going to get worse), 100 valor Players going against newcomers...

 

So, I'm honestly asking: what exactly makes you think that they are preparing something more "robust" when Eric himself said they think THIS... thing we have now is a good idea because we'll get "into action ASAP"?

[Brewski]

I like the idea of allowing people to queue for specific types of PvP. In fact, I would really like to (eventually) see something similar to Flashpoint queuing where you can check the boxes next to each specific war zone so you get pops only for ones you like.

 

That said, I understand why Bioware is doing it the way they are. The truth is there is not enough demand for PvP right now to keep the queues popping regularly if you segregate them. If it takes forever for a queue to pop, people will queue less, which means it takes longer, which means less demand, etc. etc. The queues are combined to try and build up the demand. Heck, last night I popped 5 WZs in a row with less than a five minute wait between each. It was a blast.

 

If/when demand gets high enough, then they can afford to split the queues, and when that happens I'll be happy I never have to run Huttball again. In the meantime, we all need to deal with combined queues and try to get more people to PvP.

 

Which is why I also want to point out that if you enjoy PvP in TOR and want to make it better, queuing up for warzones and then dropping when an arena pops is counterproductive. Maybe you think you're registering a protest with Bioware, but what you're actually doing is punishing the other 7 people who popped the arena. Lopsided matches are no fun on either side, and when it happens too often, a lot of people will just give up on queuing at all, which will lower overall demand, increase queue times, and make the feature you are requesting even less likely. As I said, it's counterproductive.

[TheNahash]

Which is why I also want to point out that if you enjoy PvP in TOR and want to make it better, queuing up for warzones and then dropping when an arena pops is counterproductive. Maybe you think you're registering a protest with Bioware, but what you're actually doing is punishing the other 7 people who popped the arena. Lopsided matches are no fun on either side, and when it happens too often, a lot of people will just give up on queuing at all, which will lower overall demand, increase queue times, and make the feature you are requesting even less likely. As I said, it's counterproductive.

 

Yet, there is no alternative, is there?

If you don't like Operations, you can simply choose to not queue for them. If people don't queue for Raids as much as Bioware would like, they will not focus on that part of the game. How can I do something similar for PVP?

[MagicmanNC]

I actually waited a day to download the patch, as I first read the new patch notes and browsed the forums, worried about this very issue. In fact, the only reason it is downloaded is because a sinus infection sent me home from work (couldn't keep me off SWTOR though ).

 

However, this queue system might keep me off SWTOR, unfortunately

 

First WZ pop: arena. Drat. "Sorry guys, GL" and drop. (Incidentally, it was the first WZ I've left early since release that wasn't a d/c....sigh...I'm not counting arenas as WZs though, regardless of what others say, so the streak is still alive.) Queue the immediate nasty /w from someone in the match, and immediately any regret I had over leaving is gone. Forever.

 

So, with 8 55s on 2 servers that I do multiple PvP dailies with a week, plus 4 lowbies on 3 servers that I do the pvp daily for a couple times a week, plus a commando healer on Ebon Hawk that I'm leveling via pvp solely to get those poor Republic saps there a 55 healer, ALL regular solo queues (don't give a hoot about ranked).......the way I spend 85+% of my game time in SWTOR has been borked. Staying in an arena isn't going to happen on principle, and the extra loading screens per play session from leaving are annoying.

 

This is not to say that I am against others that like arenas having the option to do them. In fact, if there was a regular arena-only button, I might be bothered to group up and do some from time to time (of course, if I was to be bothered enough to do that, it'd probably be for ranked, but refer to my above quote about ranked). However, being forced into arena pops isn't something I am going to stand for.

 

What really sucks is that there are things about the patch that I like for pvp, especially the no respec thing and the mezz grenades change (using 'nades/respec from time to time and liking them are two different things).

 

My recurring subscription has another six weeks left, and I hope they add the option to choose by then.

[CrazyGreggy]

I will leave every arena map I am dumped in by the warzone queue.

 

Dear BW, stick your 4v4 deathmatch where the sun shineth not.

[Andryah]

So, I'm honestly asking: what exactly makes you think that they are preparing something more "robust" when Eric himself said they think THIS... thing we have now is a good idea because we'll get "into action ASAP"?

 

Answered already. No need for me to be redundant. Please go back and re-read my post if you actually care.

[Damask_Rose]

I like the idea of allowing people to queue for specific types of PvP. In fact, I would really like to (eventually) see something similar to Flashpoint queuing where you can check the boxes next to each specific war zone so you get pops only for ones you like.

 

That said, I understand why Bioware is doing it the way they are. The truth is there is not enough demand for PvP right now to keep the queues popping regularly if you segregate them. If it takes forever for a queue to pop, people will queue less, which means it takes longer, which means less demand, etc. etc. The queues are combined to try and build up the demand. Heck, last night I popped 5 WZs in a row with less than a five minute wait between each. It was a blast.

 

If/when demand gets high enough, then they can afford to split the queues, and when that happens I'll be happy I never have to run Huttball again. In the meantime, we all need to deal with combined queues and try to get more people to PvP.

 

Which is why I also want to point out that if you enjoy PvP in TOR and want to make it better, queuing up for warzones and then dropping when an arena pops is counterproductive. Maybe you think you're registering a protest with Bioware, but what you're actually doing is punishing the other 7 people who popped the arena. Lopsided matches are no fun on either side, and when it happens too often, a lot of people will just give up on queuing at all, which will lower overall demand, increase queue times, and make the feature you are requesting even less likely. As I said, it's counterproductive.

 

1. I haven't had to wait longer than 5 minutes for a pop in a long time. I'm just a casual pvper on a pvp server, so my personal experience might not be typical, but I also usually pvp well off peak.

 

2. If people play the formats they don't like, the metrics will show everyone sticking it out which the Devs will interpret as everyone being happy with the status quo. They have already stated they don't want to change it, so why would they if the numbers back them up? Us telling them that we are playing to be courteous to our fellow players will fall on deaf ears.

 

Not queuing at all can also easily lead to misinterpretation of the data. They are more likely to decide people don't like pvp enough to spend the time and money on making it right, than on acknowledging people have quit pvping because they don't like the group finder set up. Throwing out the baby with the bath water so to speak.

[Brewski]

Yet, there is no alternative, is there?

If you don't like Operations, you can simply choose to not queue for them. If people don't queue for Raids as much as Bioware would like, they will not focus on that part of the game. How can I do something similar for PVP?

 

Sadly, no, there isn't. I'd like to live in a world where there is enough demand that we can split the queues up. I don't have the long term solution. Maybe it's cross-server PvP queues, or maybe it's something else, but as I said, queuing and dropping out is not only bad for PvP as a whole, it's rude to the others who do want to play.

 

If I were to drop out of every Huttball match that popped for me just because I don't like Huttball, people would (rightly) be ticked off at me. What's happening right now with arenas is no better. If you really can't stand them, and it's bad enough you'd rather not play, don't queue at all. Otherwise, if you queue and it pops, play it out.

[MidichIorian]

I'm guessing atleast some of you have played Halo (and by Halo I mean CE to Halo 3...and H3 is stretching it).

 

Anyhow, what they are doing is taking Big Team battle players and throwing them into a MLG game. Halo had separation of these playlists for a reason, the reason being that they are completely different gametypes. Almost all major games have this separation, either though team size gametype or both.

 

As for the other argument, I know that a lot of players are extremely casual. To the point that they don't seem to care about there being a scoreboard or not. Personally I've never really unmderstood that mentality, it's like they think that being intersted in winning is the same thing as raging when you lose. It's not, there are layers. So I like to aim for the win and preferably in a somewhat balanced enviroment where I'm not able to tell the outcome of the game even before the game has started, by simply looking at the rosters. There's is nothing interesting and fun about knowing how a game will end, it renders the whole point of playing moot.

Well, in most games nowdays, and even moreso in arenas, it's easy to tell how the gams is going to end the second you zone in. All because people apparently think "ASAP" is better than an improved expereince. So people rather wait 1 minute and then spend 7 in a horrible game then wait 5 minutes and have a 12 minute long and enjoyable game. Where was I when you posted the poll that decided that this is what people want?

[AlienEyeTX]

Sadly, no, there isn't. I'd like to live in a world where there is enough demand that we can split the queues up. I don't have the long term solution. Maybe it's cross-server PvP queues, or maybe it's something else, but as I said, queuing and dropping out is not only bad for PvP as a whole, it's rude to the others who do want to play.

 

If I were to drop out of every Huttball match that popped for me just because I don't like Huttball, people would (rightly) be ticked off at me. What's happening right now with arenas is no better. If you really can't stand them, and it's bad enough you'd rather not play, don't queue at all. Otherwise, if you queue and it pops, play it out.

 

I agree with you, in principle. However, that's just not practical. Arena matches are quick, so they can be played to full in just a few minutes. I see your point in that case. However, I don't want to do WZs and those take forever to play through. I will continue to drop from those most of the time. Since I'm ok with dropping myself from those, it doesn't seem fair for me to ask people to stay in arenas if they don't what to be there. So... gotta do whatchu gotta do.

[TUXs]

That said, I understand why Bioware is doing it the way they are. The truth is there is not enough demand for PvP right now to keep the queues popping regularly if you segregate them. If it takes forever for a queue to pop, people will queue less, which means it takes longer, which means less demand, etc. etc.

 

Isn't this the same issue we currently have with PvE content? Long queue times? If I queue as a DPS, I can wait hours (or until I drop from the queue...why is PvP so different to you?

 

Heck, one guy just posted last week that from 50-55 he NEVER had an Operation pop, even though he was queued for the 3 days it took him to finish leveling.

[Brewski]

1. I haven't had to wait longer than 5 minutes for a pop in a long time. I'm just a casual pvper on a pvp server, so my personal experience might not be typical, but I also usually pvp well off peak.

 

2. If people play the formats they don't like, the metrics will show everyone sticking it out which the Devs will interpret as everyone being happy with the status quo. They have already stated they don't want to change it, so why would they if the numbers back them up? Us telling them that we are playing to be courteous to our fellow players will fall on deaf ears.

 

Not queuing at all can also easily lead to misinterpretation of the data. They are more likely to decide people don't like pvp enough to spend the time and money on making it right, than on acknowledging people have quit pvping because they don't like the group finder set up. Throwing out the baby with the bath water so to speak.

 

Although that point is somewhat true, I would argue that dropping out does more damage than it's worth. The more it happens, the fewer people will queue, and your second point will become true instead of being a misread. People will queue less, and split queues become even less viable.

 

In my mind, it's a bit like complaining about all the litter by the side of the highway while throwing your own trash out the window. Ironically amusing, but ultimately self defeating.

[TUXs]

Although that point is somewhat true, I would argue that dropping out does more damage than it's worth. The more it happens, the fewer people will queue, and your second point will become true instead of being a misread. People will queue less, and split queues become even less viable.

 

In my mind, it's a bit like complaining about all the litter by the side of the highway while throwing your own trash out the window. Ironically amusing, but ultimately self defeating.

 

This is exactly why I feel there needs to be separate queues NOW...not in 2.X...but SOON!

[TheNahash]

Answered already. No need for me to be redundant. Please go back and re-read my post if you actually care.

 

Actually, no you didn't.

You said you have a feeling that they're preparing something more robust based on observations of "past dev style and approach to the game".

I replied that I've seen none of those things and asked if you can explain to me what you mean by that. You tell me to go back and re-read your post. I see nothing that explains what I'm asking you.

 

You're talking about a feeling that we do not share, because I personally feel like Bioware is always too late to react. Things have to go horribly wrong before they make the right call - and when they do most of the time, it's simply too late to restore what they lost while they were busy looking at their metrics and contemplating potential changes within a 6-12 month period.

 

But, I'm sensing the beginning of eternal recurrence here, so it's fine, we don't need to discuss it any further.

It makes no difference either way.

[TheNahash]

IAs for the other argument, I know that a lot of players are extremely casual. To the point that they don't seem to care about there being a scoreboard or not. Personally I've never really unmderstood that mentality, it's like they think that being intersted in winning is the same thing as raging when you lose. It's not, there are layers. So I like to aim for the win and preferably in a somewhat balanced enviroment where I'm not able to tell the outcome of the game even before the game has started, by simply looking at the rosters. There's is nothing interesting and fun about knowing how a game will end, it renders the whole point of playing moot.

Well, in most games nowdays, and even moreso in arenas, it's easy to tell how the gams is going to end the second you zone in. All because people apparently think "ASAP" is better than an improved expereince. So people rather wait 1 minute and then spend 7 in a horrible game then wait 5 minutes and have a 12 minute long and enjoyable game. Where was I when you posted the poll that decided that this is what people want?

 

My feelings exactly.

[AlienEyeTX]

Isn't this the same issue we currently have with PvE content? Long queue times? If I queue as a DPS, I can wait hours (or until I drop from the queue...why is PvP so different to you?

 

Heck, one guy just posted last week that from 50-55 he NEVER had an Operation pop, even though he was queued for the 3 days it took him to finish leveling.

 

And the wait would still be, arguably, lower for separate PvP queues because they don't take role into account. You could pop an arena with four dps. I guess it ultimately depends on how many people PvP, but if today is any indication, I'm guessing wait times would be low for both WZs or arenas.