Deception Sith Assassin Counter

[olcraft]

Deception Sith Assassins are easy to defeat when they are out of stealth. But how do we maximize our survivability against this spec? like which of their abilities must be interrupted and when to pop our defensive cooldowns and all that. As a vigilance guardian, i switch to my soresu form when i can't see them (1vs1 situation). Once i am stabbed from behind i immediately switch into my shien form to start dpsing. I have force push, force stasis, sabre ward, Awe, freezing force and focused defense. I know that i have to watch out for their Deflection and Force Shroud abilities. Some players use both at the same time and some don't. It's very hard to see whether an assassin activated his force shroud or not. So when is the best time to use force push and force stasis? And when is the optimal time to activate my Awe, Sabre Ward, freezing force and focused defense? Is Awe a good counter to Force Cloak?

 

p.s i have no hatred against sith assassin players, i'm just trying to learn the spec without rerolling a lvl 55 jedi shadow. Rerolling takes forever!!!

[TonyDragonflame]

I kill deception sins 1 vs 1 with my defence (36/8/2) guardian with shield but in dps gear and my hybrid (14/32/0) vanguard with ion cell, shield generator and full dps gear.

 

Sometimes i kill them with my focus sentinel too.

Edited September 17, 2013 by TonyDragonflame

[cycao]

Well I see far, far to many players using their CC breaker on spike and low slash...Please don't do that. If you break on the 2 sec stun or the 4 sec mez you will lose just about ever encounter with one unless you have full resolve or you're a sorc healer with your immunity bubble off CD.

 

I kill deception sins 1 vs 1 with my defence (36/8/2) guardian with shield but in dps gear and my hybrid (14/32/0) vanguard with ion cell, shield generator and full dps gear.

 

And then there is this guy who will complain all day about assassins yet apparently has no issues besting one.

Edited September 17, 2013 by cycao

[olcraft]

I kill deception sins 1 vs 1 with my defence (36/8/2) guardian with shield but in dps gear and my hybrid (14/32/0) vanguard with ion cell, shield generator and full dps gear.

 

Sometimes i kill them with my focus sentinel too.

 

Maybe u killed deception sins that are outta stealth. Or maybe they aren't really skilled players. Killing an exposed assassin is a joke really. They are underpowered without their stealth and maul. The problem is they can take away about 40% of your health immediately outta stealth. And Deflection + Force Shroud combo can be really frustrating. I imagine the duel between a dps vigilance guardian and a sith deception assassin to be like the duel between a samurai and a ninja. Most ninjas can't defeat a samurai 1 on 1 when exposed. But when they are in stealth they can just assassinate about any samurai easily.

[olcraft]

Ugh I forgot to mention Sabre Reflect.

[ErikGW]

Defeating a deception sin is more about surviving the initial burst than anything else. Don't let him get you under 30% health. Don't blow your cc break early.

 

Being a guardian, you won't beat a good sin regardless of how good you are. Your goal is to stall him until you get reinforced. You can kill plenty of bad sins, but one that knows how to use his dcds and how to hold his late spikes til after you burn yours will beat you.

 

When i see a soresu/shien hybrid guard or jugg, i get my spikes in then kite while his resist buffs wear down. You should space out those buffs a lot after the initial burst, too many guards panic and blow them all quick and i just disappear then spike him again while they are all cooling down.

 

I don't worry too much about guards on my sin. A good PT/VG is harder to kill, i think.

[Evolixe]

There are so many things you can take note of I don't even know where to start...

 

You would do good by trying to understand your enemy. No player is the same, no Assassin plays the same.

 

Understand his actions and exploit them. Use counter abilities to active cooldowns, play smart and don't break low slash or spike.

[Skinnychalk]

Vengeance/Vigilance Juggs/Guardians slay Deception Assassins.

[Evolixe]

Vengeance/Vigilance Juggs/Guardians slay Deception Assassins.

 

No they don't.

[cycao]

No they don't.

 

Well depends if they catch one out of stealth which is lacking on certain cooldowns they can do some damage but I wouldn't say slay.

 

Though I 100% agree on not everyone plays every class/spec the same. It is important to know player habits as well as the class.

[maverickmatt]

Well depends if they catch one out of stealth which is lacking on certain cooldowns they can do some damage but I wouldn't say slay.

 

Though I 100% agree on not everyone plays every class/spec the same. It is important to know player habits as well as the class.

 

To be fair....

 

Vigilance is one of two specs that can consistently beat deception with any variable you throw in (lack of CDs, Stealth or no Stealth.. etc). The other is Sharpshooter.

 

Essentially, what I'm saying is that in the hands of two highly skilled players, Vigilance is capable of besting Deception every time. Does it actually happen? No.

 

What USUALLY happens is that the Vigilance player doesn't understand how to fight Deception (or how to work the procs for maximum burst.. and believe that it's alot). Sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses. At the heart of this is the understanding of DCDs and how they work, what they block and reduce and what they have no effect on.. etc..

 

EDIT:

 

Yesterday, a Balance Shadow beat me twice before I figured out *** to do. I knew he was there, but I was expecting him to open with a stun or SS or something. Instead... I got FiB. It was confusing:|

Edited September 18, 2013 by maverickmatt

[Kooziejr]

Level a sin if you want to know how to beat a sin. Their weaknesses will be glaringly obvious (same can be said for every class).

[PhatMcMuffins]

To be fair....

 

Vigilance is one of two specs that can consistently beat deception with any variable you throw in (lack of CDs, Stealth or no Stealth.. etc). The other is Sharpshooter.

 

Essentially, what I'm saying is that in the hands of two highly skilled players, Vigilance is capable of besting Deception every time. Does it actually happen? No.

 

What USUALLY happens is that the Vigilance player doesn't understand how to fight Deception (or how to work the procs for maximum burst.. and believe that it's alot). Sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses. At the heart of this is the understanding of DCDs and how they work, what they block and reduce and what they have no effect on.. etc..

 

EDIT:

 

Yesterday, a Balance Shadow beat me twice before I figured out *** to do. I knew he was there, but I was expecting him to open with a stun or SS or something. Instead... I got FiB. It was confusing:|

 

Just to help you out, this most likely was not a balance shadow but one using the Wakajinn spec that picks up FiB but runs shadow technique and such. If you lost to a full balance shadow, there is a problem because that is the most broken DPS spec atm.

[NogueiraA]

As a Carnage mara I use Saber Ward + cloack of pain ASAP, break the 4sec stun, stealth + leap + accuracy debuff = gg dead sin.

[RodneyMcNeely]

Being a guardian, you won't beat a good sin regardless of how good you are. Your goal is to stall him until you get reinforced. You can kill plenty of bad sins, but one that knows how to use his dcds and how to hold his late spikes til after you burn yours will beat you.

I'm not questioning your expertise, but is this really the case? All things being equal, will a Guardian/Juggernaut lose to an equally skilled Assassin/Shadow more often than not?

 

And what about Darkness/Kinetic Combat for dueling? Can you fit them in DPS gear and still be an effective 1v1 spec? I'm thinking that's what Grezeka did in the Bastion's 1v1 tourney, but I'm not sure.

 

Anyway, thanks in advance for your reply. Again, not questioning your experience, Erik, just genuinely curious.

 

[maverickmatt]

Just to help you out, this most likely was not a balance shadow but one using the Wakajinn spec that picks up FiB but runs shadow technique and such. If you lost to a full balance shadow, there is a problem because that is the most broken DPS spec atm.

 

Maybe.

 

But he used Sever Force so I doubt it. Embarrassing? Not really. I wasn't expecting it, didn't know how to fight it (cause you don't see ANY of them), and the guy obviously knew how to play it.

[glocklB]

As a Carnage mara I use Saber Ward + cloack of pain ASAP, break the 4sec stun, stealth + leap + accuracy debuff = gg dead sin.

 

Break on 4s stun as carnage marauder against decepton? No way you will beat any decent assassin with this approach.

[glocklB]

Just to help you out, this most likely was not a balance shadow but one using the Wakajinn spec that picks up FiB but runs shadow technique and such. If you lost to a full balance shadow, there is a problem because that is the most broken DPS spec atm.

 

Balance/madness is broken in wzs, but it's quite decent in 1v1 actually.

Edited September 18, 2013 by glocklB

[Daystarr]

As a Carnage mara I use Saber Ward + cloack of pain ASAP, break the 4sec stun, stealth + leap + accuracy debuff = gg dead sin.

 

 

 

What happens when the Sin hard stuns you, followed by Crushing Darkness into a Maul? Gg dead Marauder.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Daystarr

[ErikGW]

I'm not questioning your expertise, but is this really the case? All things being equal, will a Guardian/Juggernaut lose to an equally skilled Assassin/Shadow more often than not?

 

And what about Darkness/Kinetic Combat for dueling? Can you fit them in DPS gear and still be an effective 1v1 spec? I'm thinking that's what Grezeka did in the Bastion's 1v1 tourney, but I'm not sure.

 

Anyway, thanks in advance for your reply. Again, not questioning your experience, Erik, just genuinely curious.

 

 

I would say yes because equally skilled would mean each understanding the other, and the assassin can force the guard to burn his cooldowns over a series of skirmish and disappear. Forcing the guard to request help or die in a 1v1 without his cooldowns.

 

Any good assassin counts all the tank survival cooldowns as a matter of neccessity. That's why my earlier advice was dont blow those all at once like some guards do. That makes it way too easy for the assassin to disappear for 20 seconds then come back and own.

Edited September 18, 2013 by ErikGW

[Pathlight-]

I would say yes because equally skilled would mean each understanding the other, and the assassin can force the guard to burn his cooldowns over a series of skirmish and disappear. Forcing the guard to request help or die in a 1v1 without his cooldowns.

 

Any good assassin counts all the tank survival cooldowns as a matter of neccessity. That's why my earlier advice was dont blow those all at once like some guards do. That makes it way too easy for the assassin to disappear for 20 seconds then come back and own.

 

If the sin has to wait on the dcds, stealth away and reopen he failed because reinf will be there.

[ErikGW]

If the sin has to wait on the dcds, stealth away and reopen he failed because reinf will be there.

 

Depends on what you consider failed. A tank without hos defense buffs needs a babysitter for a while.

 

If you make him burn his long dcds, he can't solo guard anymore.

Scenario 1: his team commits a second guard, then you go spike a healer in the main battle.

Scenario 2: enemy team leaves tank to solo guard again, and you kill him easily.

 

A solo assassin can't effectively kill a good tank with all skills available, doesnt matter how good the assassin is. That's the purpose of a tank.

 

All that being said, when a sin can't kill a guy he should be wasting the time of 2-3 so the other 7 on his team have numerical superiority.

[Pathlight-]

Depends on what you consider failed. A tank without hos defense buffs needs a babysitter for a while.

 

If you make him burn his long dcds, he can't solo guard anymore.

Scenario 1: his team commits a second guard, then you go spike a healer in the main battle.

Scenario 2: enemy team leaves tank to solo guard again, and you kill him easily.

 

A solo assassin can't effectively kill a good tank with all skills available, doesnt matter how good the assassin is. That's the purpose of a tank.

 

All that being said, when a sin can't kill a guy he should be wasting the time of 2-3 so the other 7 on his team have numerical superiority.

 

As a defense guardian, I don't think I've ever had to use my defensive cds against a lone stealth ganker. You can delay long enough with stuns, mezzes, knockbacks, los until help arrives.

 

If they send 2 stealthers then yes, the tank will have to use his cds but then the attacking team loses 2 players.

 

Ofc, on some maps, smart sins don't even need to engage in combat to steal a node.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Pathlight-

[ErikGW]

As a defense guardian, I don't think I've ever had to use my defensive cds against a lone stealth ganker. You can delay long enough with stuns, mezzes, knockbacks, los until help arrives.

 

If they send 2 stealthers then yes, the tank will have to use his cds but then the attacking team loses 2 players.

 

Ofc, on some maps, smart sins don't even need to engage in combat to steal a node.

 

That's because there are so many bad sins. A GOOD deception sin can kill any tank 1v1, it just takes a lot more time than they usually have, like 2+ minutes. It is often better to view a solo sin as a diversion, because a good sin can and will make a tank guard or vg burn his dcds.

 

It is most efficient at this point to feign cowardice or inferiority (not use medpack to stay in a losing fight, instead let yourself die or disappear) then quickly return to kill the over-confident tank that doesn't realize the sin was pretending to be yet another bad sin.

[mulzii]

As a defense guardian, I don't think I've ever had to use my defensive cds against a lone stealth ganker. You can delay long enough with stuns, mezzes, knockbacks, los until help arrives.

 

If they send 2 stealthers then yes, the tank will have to use his cds but then the attacking team loses 2 players.

 

Ofc, on some maps, smart sins don't even need to engage in combat to steal a node.

 

the problem with this is, as a solo stealther, i'm not going to bother killing you, i'll stun-lock you and cap the node/door/whatever (assuming its not novare or your a pt tank). Then i can outlast you until my reenforcements arrive. There are many ways to play a sin, not all of them involve outright killing. novare i have a system to handle pesky solo tanks guarding a node that works well.

 

Though i do not usually die to guardians 1v1, i may run out of time and have to flee as his buddies arrive, but usually, if i react to what he's doing properly, i can outlast them enough to finish them off. This is decep sin of course. When i play madness i dont even bother 1v1ing, its a joke..

Edited September 18, 2013 by mulzii