[Rep] Focus Tree Rebalance

[Andrew_Past]

Well, here it is, my suggestion to fairly rebalance the Focus tree. To start, let's discuss why it is a problem. In terms of single target damage, the Guardian Focus tree is performing very similar to other specs in the game. It is not the highest single target DPS, but it does better than most. However, the problem lies in the extremely high AOE damage potential. This affects PVP balance greatly.

 

The Problem:

 

The damage potential of an average Force Sweep is about 8k x 5. That is a 40k damage potential in a single global. No other single ability has anywhere close to that damage potential, let alone an instant ability. Additionally, Force Sweep is on a relatively short cool down of roughly 9 seconds (with good uptime.) This gives the Focus tree an an insanely high damage potential in PVP. It's true that the majority of the time, Force Sweep will not hit 5 enemies at once. However, it isn't very difficult in PVP to regularly hit 2-3 people at a time on average, even against teams that know to watch for a Force Sweep.

 

The AOE damage isn't all of what the Focus spec has going for it. Focus also has a great amount of group utility, mobility, and an easy to use and coordinate, high damage auto-crit. A Focus Guardian can leap in, Force Sweep a large group, use Awe to AOE mez them, focus on a single target with their team, Freezing Force to AOE snare and taunt as the group is about to lose the effect of the mez, and then Force Sweep again one or two globals later. Focus Sentinels can do the same thing minus the taunt and AOE snare. Even outside of this scenario, Focus players have a plethora of snares, roots, and CCs in addition to the highest AOE damage output in the game.

 

So, to put it simply, Focus players have the issues of disproportionately higher damage output coupled with high amounts of utility, high amounts of mobility, easy to coordinate auto-crit, and in a Sentinel's case, high amounts of survivability. Now, I'm fine with utility, and coordinated single target damage, and mobility, as they can add skill to a team when used with coordination. What I'm not okay with is having all of that and extremely high AOE damage on a short cool down.

 

The Solution:

So, how can we fix this problem? Well, we need to set a few parameters for the solution before proceeding. For the rebalance to be successful it needs to do the following:

 

• AOE damage needs to be reduced
  
• Single target damage needs to be unaffected
  
• Overall game play and style needs to be unaffected
  
• It still needs to fill the role of an AOE pressure spec
  

 

All of this can be done be done by changing how Singularity works. Currently, it doubles the damage of Force Sweep with 3 stacks of Singularity. I propose that Force Leap and Zealous Leap place a debuff on a target that makes it so only the target with that debuff is affected by Singularity. Only one debuff can be on a target at a time (so someone can't Force Leap to one and Zealous Leap to someone else for another debuff.) With this change, a normal 8k Force Sweep will still do 8k to the debuffed target, but only 4k to other targets. If this is too harsh of a change, Singularity could retain a 25% damage to non-debuffed targets for 5k AOE hits.

 

With this solution, Focus would be relatively the same in PVE. AOE damage would be reduced significantly, but would still be high enough to discourage people from standing close together and would still punish tanks who still stand close to guard targets. Also, the overall game play would remain intact. And Focus players' damage output would be brought more in line with other specs in the game.

[UncleOst]

Within the realm of competitive warzone gameplay, heals and shields counteract much of this damage. add to that fact incoming taunts.

 

I for one whole heartedly disagree with this, and would prefer to see less "in game numbing" and more damage potential placed into the player's hands.

 

My response would be to retain all damage potential, but instead reduce the 360 degree capability of smash and implement a frontal 180 damage cone.

 

Sweeping slash could instead be revamped to become the new 360 aoe.

[Crawelc]

My only question is if the dps that focus puts out is so much higher than other classes that is justifies the change. Yes they have huge AOE burst, but the overall dps. Is it that far out of line?

[Docmal]

Wow both of these ideas suck.

 

Make force sweep 180? Sigh... Force sweep is an ability used by almost every knight spec. Please consider this before you make a suggestion about single spec changes.

 

As for the OP - i completely disagree with your premise. You are suggesting nerfs because of some theoretical and unobtainable damage potential.

[UncleOst]

Wow both of these ideas suck.

 

Make force sweep 180? Sigh... Force sweep is an ability used by almost every knight spec. Please consider this before you make a suggestion about single spec changes.

 

As for the OP - i completely disagree with your premise. You are suggesting nerfs because of some theoretical and unobtainable damage potential.

 

Ideally.. then yes. If there was to be a "nerf" lol, then I'd rather have the same damage potential under the control of my fingers. My suggestion would be a counter, to any threat towards change. I like things the way they are as well man, and don't think there is a threat at all. It is plain to see how hard healers can be to lock down in any competitive environment. A nerf, in all regards, is fundamentally ridiculous. None-the-less.......

[Andrew_Past]

As was mentioned already, changing Force Sweep to a cone attack would hurt other specs that use it, most notably tanks. Also, shields don't affect Force Sweep because shields can't mitigate auto-crits. All DPS have to deal with taunts, so that's not a valid argument.

 

I am NOT arguing based off of unobtainable potential damage. I stated the max potential to make a point, but also mentioned that it is too much at a realistic average.

 

On Stalemates:

Yes, high healing output is causing a higher occurrence of stalemates. Yes, the Focus tree is used to pressure healers more than other DPS specs. However, that does not mean it is okay. Just because one aspect of a game is over tuned or over powered does not make it right to leave something else over tuned or over powered. There is no denying that the Focus tree puts up higher numbers in PVP than any other DPS spec, and usually by a good margin. Given everything that Focus players have, this does not make for a balanced spec.

 

What should happen is that both high healing output and Focus both get rebalanced. And if Focus is to be rebalanced, I want it to be done right.

[UncleOst]

As was mentioned already, changing Force Sweep to a cone attack would hurt other specs that use it, most notably tanks. Also, shields don't affect Force Sweep because shields can't mitigate auto-crits. All DPS have to deal with taunts, so that's not a valid argument.

 

I am NOT arguing based off of unobtainable potential damage. I stated the max potential to make a point, but also mentioned that it is too much at a realistic average.

 

On Stalemates:

Yes, high healing output is causing a higher occurrence of stalemates. Yes, the Focus tree is used to pressure healers more than other DPS specs. However, that does not mean it is okay. Just because one aspect of a game is over tuned or over powered does not make it right to leave something else over tuned or over powered. There is no denying that the Focus tree puts up higher numbers in PVP than any other DPS spec, and usually by a good margin. Given everything that Focus players have, this does not make for a balanced spec.

 

What should happen is that both high healing output and Focus both get rebalanced. And if Focus is to be rebalanced, I want it to be done right.

 

*sits back, and takes a drag*

 

I was going to retort with that sweeping slash could be reworked to replace as aoe attack, and smash becomes a more skill-based application ( we need our dps, have you seen what a healer can do lately? J/K).

 

I'll cut you some slack. I realize your suggestion hinges on a reworking of the current state of healing in game. Face it guys, we all know something has to be done about it. If Andrew's premonitions of rebalancing do in fact occur, would his solution be an easier one to implement?

 

The problem (I apologize for this as well), is that most people's jaw will drop when they read this. Like someone else mentioned, a proposal such as this may start here, but in fact belongs in another thread addressing the future balancing of the entire game. It's an intrigueing start.

[BARSAL]

bump

[Alec_Fortescue]

I don't like it. No point in nerfing Juggernauts, there are other classes needing this. It's hard enough to top dps in raids with a Jug atm. Remember that Focus is the only proper spec for a Guardian in PvP and only one they can really compete in Ranked PvP. Remember that Sentinels, with Focus nerfed, will roll amazing Combat. And abilities used between smash aren't really that painful, which justifies the sudden damage of smash. Edited August 5, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[Skroting]

Wow both of these ideas suck.

 

Make force sweep 180? Sigh... Force sweep is an ability used by almost every knight spec. Please consider this before you make a suggestion about single spec changes.

 

As for the OP - i completely disagree with your premise. You are suggesting nerfs because of some theoretical and unobtainable damage potential.

 

Well the suggested nerf allso affects the theoretical max output the most, rather than the average single-target damage.

Throguhout the entire game smash has been overpowered to the point of redicilousness, i don't see how people can still defend the overwhelming damage capabilities of this specc, with a straight face. This needs to be adjusted, hands down.

As for the healing issue, you can't really argue with what Andrew said, you cant base focus arround an unbalanced part of the game. Healing outputs needs some work done, while focus needs a dps nerf at the same time.

 

Truth is *most* of this games PvP is played in the normal wz environment, and balance can't cater solely to high-end ranked situations. Granted i do believe you need a "stable" baseline to balance the classes arround (like rateds) you can't take it to such an extreme that Focus becomes gods in the normal wz's, which they are and have been since before patch 1.2.

[znihilist]

Since the discussion is focused here, I will copy my answer I have provided on the marauder forums.

(I am going to be quoting myself here, but here it goes)

No and simply no. Heavy, un-mitigated AOE damage in very much needed in PvP for reasons beyond pressuring healers. If the AOE damage is modified (in the way you suggest), you will run into serious balance issues, ranging from ranged vs melee to the stacking strategy which will have no counter unless a serious nerf to ranged classes are made.

So what are you are proposing in a way is the doorway to re-balance (nerf ?) every dps class in this game (specially ranged one). IF and that's a big if, focus/rage needs something checked, it might need a check on its ulitlity and single target dps. Anything else and you will be sending us to class re-balance hell.

And now for another thing:

The Problem:

 

The damage potential of an average Force Sweep is about 8k x 5. That is a 40k damage potential in a single global. No other single ability has anywhere close to that damage potential, let alone an instant ability. Additionally, Force Sweep is on a relatively short cool down of roughly 9 seconds (with good uptime.) This gives the Focus tree an an insanely high damage potential in PVP. It's true that the majority of the time, Force Sweep will not hit 5 enemies at once. However, it isn't very difficult in PVP to regularly hit 2-3 people at a time on average, even against teams that know to watch for a Force Sweep.

I am sorry, but I can't take you for serious when you pose as a problem what is exactly intended from the spec. This is not buff ability "A" and we end up with a new unintended game mechanic. The spec is built around heavy unmitigated AOE damage. It is not built for single target dps, tanking, nor healing, it is by design an AOE spec.

 

So how is that a problem ?

Edited August 5, 2013 by znihilist

[Reginlief]

Let's be realistic here, Focus needs some kind of nerf. It's been OP since launch, the only other spec that was nearly as OP was Assault Vanguard and that got nerfed into the ground. I'm not saying that Focus should be nerfed into the ground, but it needs a fair nerf. I like Andrew's idea of having the leaps apply a single target debuff, one at a time, with possible %25 dmg increase to non-debuffed targets if that is too much of a nerf.

 

IMO, the other replies disagreeing with this are people who play Focus and don't want their precious OP spec to get nerfed. From a neutral point of view it's easy to agree that it needs some sort of nerf.

[Skroting]

I am sorry, but I can't take you for serious when you pose as a problem what is exactly intended from the spec. This is not buff ability "A" and we end up with a new unintended game mechanic. The spec is built around heavy unmitigated AOE damage. It is not built for single target dps, tanking, nor healing, it is by design an AOE spec.

 

So how is that a problem ?

 

The spec is built arround heavy AoE damage, true. The spec provides just that, in abundance, way to much in fact, no other class in the game has the aoe capabilties that focus provides. Now that in itself warrants a slight nerf (read slight). Combine that with the fact that AoE damage isn't all focus brings to the table, and you got yourself more than enough reason to nerf this spec. Your only arguement for not nerfing focus right now was that focus is meant for aoe, and it does aoe, therefore it works as intended. It's not built arround single target dps, but it still has capabilties to threaten more than enough classes in a 1v1 situation because of it's average (?) single target dps, while allso providing decent utility. How can you not realize that this is actually overpowered?

[znihilist]

The spec is built arround heavy AoE damage, true. The spec provides just that, in abundance, way to much in fact, no other class in the game has the aoe capabilties that focus provides. Now that in itself warrants a slight nerf (read slight). Combine that with the fact that AoE damage isn't all focus brings to the table, and you got yourself more than enough reason to nerf this spec. Your only arguement for not nerfing focus right now was that focus is meant for aoe, and it does aoe, therefore it works as intended. It's not built arround single target dps, but it still has capabilties to threaten more than enough classes in a 1v1 situation because of it's average (?) single target dps, while allso providing decent utility. How can you not realize that this is actually overpowered?

 

If you go check the Sentinel questions you will see that most people who do play rage, actually complain that the single target dps is actually low. Average dps of rage/focus is at least 10% below the other two specs of Sentinels/Marauders. Matter of a fact is in a 1v1 context, rage is useless (since burst in useless in 1v1). Your ability to burst down can not compensate for lack of decent single target dps. So you can't expect me to believe that rage is OP in 1v1.

 

My argument in its shortest form is: Current game mechanics demand the existence of rage/focus in its AOE form. That particular aspect can not be nerfed or changed without having big ramifications on the healer/dps, melee/ranged balance of the game.

 

However, a nerf to the utility of the spec itself can be perhaps be argued successfully.

 

Edit:

no other class in the game has the aoe capabilties that focus provides

No other spec in the game offers what carnage has to offer, or what engineering does, or what sorc healer does. Every spec is unique, how is that an argument against rage and not in its favor ?

IMO, the other replies disagreeing with this are people who play Focus and don't want their precious OP spec to get nerfed. From a neutral point of view it's easy to agree that it needs some sort of nerf.

 

I don't play rage, and that excuse is a genetic fallacy (or perhaps an inverted No true Scotsman fallacy).

Your post only contains words, it does not say HOW Rage/Focus is overpowered, nor WHY it must be nerfed.

Edited August 5, 2013 by znihilist

[Skroting]

If you go check the Sentinel questions you will see that most people who do play rage, actually complain that the single target dps is actually low. Average dps of rage/focus is at least 10% below the other two specs of Sentinels/Marauders. Matter of a fact is in a 1v1 context, rage is useless (since burst in useless in 1v1). Your ability to burst down can not compensate for lack of decent single target dps. So you can't expect me to believe that rage is OP in 1v1.

My argument in its shortest form is: Current game mechanics demand the existence of rage/focus in its AOE form. That particular aspect can not be nerfed or changed without having big ramifications on the healer/dps, melee/ranged balance of the game. However, a nerf to the utility of the spec itself can be perhaps be argued successfully.

 

I didn't mean to say a focus is OP in a 1v1 situation, what i meant was merely that the potential follow-up damage you can provide with your single-target abilities is more than threatening when following the currently OP smash/sweep. And you are correct, AoE is needed, but the fact still remains that damagewise the focus spec outperforms any and all other competitors on that front, by magnitudes.

 

Ofcourse, the fact that focus has become such a cornerstone of the PvP in this game, means that changes to the spec, while needed to bring the spec in line, will allso warrant other changes to other classes, to maintain balance.

[znihilist]

I didn't mean to say a focus is OP in a 1v1 situation, what i meant was merely that the potential follow-up damage you can provide with your single-target abilities is more than threatening when following the currently OP smash/sweep. And you are correct, AoE is needed, but the fact still remains that damagewise the focus spec outperforms any and all other competitors on that front, by magnitudes.

That's why I am trying to understand, why is an AOE spec outperforming non AOE specs in AOE damage is a big deal ? (Seriously I am not being sarcastic)

 

Ofcourse, the fact that focus has become such a cornerstone of the PvP in this game, means that changes to the spec, while needed to bring the spec in line, will allso warrant other changes to other classes, to maintain balance.

 

I agree with that, changes to other classes would be warranted. But let's be real here, do you really want BW to start a game wide re-balancing with its effects propagating beyond PvP (think PvE and end game OPs) ?

I understand what I am saying here is an argument of convenience (I dread fallacies), but I suspect that would take a lot of time and would bring new problems for us to complain about (warranted and other).

Edited August 5, 2013 by znihilist

[Skroting]

That's why I am trying to understand, why is an AOE spec outperforming non AOE specs in AOE damage is a big deal ? (Seriously I am not being sarcastic)

 

I get that you're not being sarcastic, but i believe we may just be of different opinions of how an AoE centered spec is supposed to work. In my opinion overall damage of an AoE spec should not be nearly as potent as the current smash/sweep performs when it comes to burst and kill potential. In my opinion this is becoming a "best of both worlds" kinda deal, where you have the immense aoe pressure, while at the same time have huge single target burst and kill potential.

 

Having an aoe centered spec is fine, but for instance make cyclone slash (uncertain what the jugger equivalient is called ) more a go-to ability for more balanced AoE output, instead of putting all eggs in one basket called force sweep/smash, and in turn reducing the burst of the AoE spec.

 

I'm not trying to argue that one AoE spec outperforming other AoE specs is this ludicrous notion, but rather that an AoE spec can do that while rivaling other high kill-potential burst specs is what's bothering me.

[BARSAL]

I get that you're not being sarcastic, but i believe we may just be of different opinions of how an AoE centered spec is supposed to work. In my opinion overall damage of an AoE spec should not be nearly as potent as the current smash/sweep performs when it comes to burst and kill potential. In my opinion this is becoming a "best of both worlds" kinda deal, where you have the immense aoe pressure, while at the same time have huge single target burst and kill potential.

 

Having an aoe centered spec is fine, but for instance make cyclone slash (uncertain what the jugger equivalient is called ) more a go-to ability for more balanced AoE output, instead of putting all eggs in one basket called force sweep/smash, and in turn reducing the burst of the AoE spec.

 

I'm not trying to argue that one AoE spec outperforming other AoE specs is this ludicrous notion, but rather that an AoE spec can do that while rivaling other high kill-potential burst specs is what's bothering me.

 

Exactly the point^^^^

Not only does it outperform other AoE specs but it does it with 1 move (plus set up moves) which means that ONE move does way too much damage. The only other spec that comes close to the kind of AoE output in pvp is a hybrid sorc/sage and the only AoE move that comes close to that kind of burst is TK Wave. Yes I know, Freighter Flyby does as much damage as TK Wave per tick, IF PEOPLE ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO STAND IN IT. Engineering does no where near the AoE pressure in pvp unless people are stupid enough to stand in fire, thermal grenades are weak sauce unless they crit. Further more in pvp smash definitely does some of the most sustained single target dps, if you have ever played it you should know when blade storm, slash, force crush, master strike and dispatch crit it is for insane burst damage because of 15% surge across the board. The change in the surge talent was so smash wasn't a one trick pony. Not to mention that all these abilities except master strike benefit from crit increases in the tree (6% force crit, 7.5%crit to slash and dispatch). So not only does every ability get extra surge but they crit quite a bit, no other tree in the game has crit chance increases to almost every ability used on this proportion (6%+).

 

Now if you are arguing for the sake of pve, guardian dps SHOULD be behind pure damage specs because it is also a tank class. Furthermore in fights with lots of AoE, focus is not behind at all because of its amazing burst AoE.

[znihilist]

I get that you're not being sarcastic, but i believe we may just be of different opinions of how an AoE centered spec is supposed to work. In my opinion overall damage of an AoE spec should not be nearly as potent as the current smash/sweep performs when it comes to burst and kill potential. In my opinion this is becoming a "best of both worlds" kinda deal, where you have the immense aoe pressure, while at the same time have huge single target burst and kill potential.

 

Having an aoe centered spec is fine, but for instance make cyclone slash (uncertain what the jugger equivalient is called ) more a go-to ability for more balanced AoE output, instead of putting all eggs in one basket called force sweep/smash, and in turn reducing the burst of the AoE spec.

Ahhh I see where you are going with this, and that's a fair point to argue on (and an interesting approach).

 

I wonder if it is actually better to handle (to negate) aoe spec if they have one single ability, what I am saying is that is the current form, it is easy to predict when a "smash" is coming, the burst is predictable and can be dealt with ( to a certain extent).

However, using cyclone slash (or sweeping slash for Warriors) as you suggested will make the spec harder to negate (more focus will have to be channeled against it), but it will make tactics more relevant and will certainly have better justification for the defensive CDs the spec get (at least for Marauders/Sentinels). What I am saying is spreading the eggs will actually make it more OP (even if smash itself was nerfed).

But all of that is speculation on my part, further analysis is required.

 

 

Engineering does no where near the AoE pressure in pvp

snip

no other tree in the game has crit chance increases to almost every ability used on this proportion (6%+).

 

Engineering is not supposed to do AoE pressure, it plays the role of "Denial of Objective".

That 6% is shared among all trees (only for force attacks) and it is not just for Rage/Focus.

Edited August 5, 2013 by znihilist

[Dragonexadon]

A few counterpoints.

• Having 5 people in a group is rare
  
• Smashers are often FIFO (First In First Out)
  
• Good teams will mark a smasher, taunt them, and destroy them
  

 

Normally my experience with a warzone is as follows: I get a good smash in (8k on 2 to 3 people), and most of the rest of the game I am taunted or singled out. Guardians would feel the pain of a focus nerf more than sents as we do not have all the defensive CDs a sent has in smash spec. The benefit of the high output on multiple targets comes with the risk of placing oneself right at the center of multiple targets. Someone earlier stated that no other AOE damage does this output. Rightfully so IMHO. Range AOE can be away from the center of combat. And no other specwas designed to have melee AOE damage as their primary source of damage.

 

I think more data would need to be collected or provided by the devs before a nerf to smash was suggested. I wonder how many deaths on average a smasher has, how much damage a smasher is really putting out on average, ect.

[Eudidimuss]

So let me get this strait, you wanna make smash more like carnage, minus the RNG? *I would say no, and to stop trying to "fix" something that isn't broke.*

 

For arguments sake we are going to take this one and apply to the sniper orbital strike. *You have 8 players in a WZ, and by some miracle you managed to get off all four ticks. At 6k x 8= that's 48k per tick. And multiply that by 4 you get *192k (potential dmg) for one ability. So by your argument orbital strike is grossly op and should not belong in the game.*

 

Also the push to make smash more single target is kind of absurd, given that both warrior AC's have a single target spec carnage and vengeance. And might I add they both do pretty well, if played and geared correctly.*

 

And the point that was brought up about 2 or 3 smashers working as a team. You can basically do that with any AC. You can have multiple agents running in lethality, or multiple marauder's in carnage.*

 

Now if you were really concerned about "balance". I would suggest reverting the smash ability to the way it worked in the past by removing the insta cast. *As in "if" you were quick enough you could *counter it by either a KB, stun, or in the sin's case shroud.*

 

^^^^^^^ that's a repost from the marauder forums^^^^^^^

[Skroting]

Ahhh I see where you are going with this, and that's a fair point to argue on (and an interesting approach).

 

I wonder if it is actually better to handle (to negate) aoe spec if they have one single ability, what I am saying is that is the current form, it is easy to predict when a "smash" is coming, the burst is predictable and can be dealt with ( to a certain extent).

However, using cyclone slash (or sweeping slash for Warriors) as you suggested will make the spec harder to negate (more focus will have to be channeled against it), but it will make tactics more relevant and will certainly have better justification for the defensive CDs the spec get (at least for Marauders/Sentinels). What I am saying is spreading the eggs will actually make it more OP (even if smash itself was nerfed).

But all of that is speculation on my part, further analysis is required.

 

To some extent i do believe you could be correct in the sense that dealing with smash alone is simpler if you're trying to avoid AoE damage all together, but then again, more often than not, i feel you have to spend to many resources (read: gcd's spent on roots, snares etc, from the entire opposing team) just to negate the damage potential of 1-2 smashers. So indeed, further analysis would be needed. But that's atleast how i believe a true AoE spec should be built up, give them a "sustainable" AoE output, and reduce their burst/kill capabilties.

 

A few counterpoints.

• Having 5 people in a group is rare
  
• Smashers are often FIFO (First In First Out)
  
• Good teams will mark a smasher, taunt them, and destroy them
  

 

Normally my experience with a warzone is as follows: I get a good smash in (8k on 2 to 3 people), and most of the rest of the game I am taunted or singled out. Guardians would feel the pain of a focus nerf more than sents as we do not have all the defensive CDs a sent has in smash spec. The benefit of the high output on multiple targets comes with the risk of placing oneself right at the center of multiple targets. Someone earlier stated that no other AOE damage does this output. Rightfully so IMHO. Range AOE can be away from the center of combat. And no other specwas designed to have melee AOE damage as their primary source of damage.

 

I think more data would need to be collected or provided by the devs before a nerf to smash was suggested. I wonder how many deaths on average a smasher has, how much damage a smasher is really putting out on average, ect.

 

Mostly what you say counts for me aswell in my regular warzone, but even with the taunts, peels, etc etc. i still end up with top damage done, on average i get more killing blows, and still win on highest hit, which means that even if the enemy team try to control me, i will still have just as high killpotential than anyone else on my team, my overall pressure applied is above the rest, and i still burst like a truck.

 

So let me get this strait, you wanna make smash more like carnage, minus the RNG? *I would say no, and to stop trying to "fix" something that isn't broke.*

 

For arguments sake we are going to take this one and apply to the sniper orbital strike. *You have 8 players in a WZ, and by some miracle you managed to get off all four ticks. At 6k x 8= that's 48k per tick. And multiply that by 4 you get *192k (potential dmg) for one ability. So by your argument orbital strike is grossly op and should not belong in the game.*

 

Also the push to make smash more single target is kind of absurd, given that both warrior AC's have a single target spec carnage and vengeance. And might I add they both do pretty well, if played and geared correctly.*

 

And the point that was brought up about 2 or 3 smashers working as a team. You can basically do that with any AC. You can have multiple agents running in lethality, or multiple marauder's in carnage.*

 

Now if you were really concerned about "balance". I would suggest reverting the smash ability to the way it worked in the past by removing the insta cast. *As in "if" you were quick enough you could *counter it by either a KB, stun, or in the sin's case shroud.*

 

^^^^^^^ that's a repost from the marauder forums^^^^^^^

 

How they can compare a 9 sec CD instantcast to a 60 sec CD, 3 sec cast, 4 tick ability is kinda wierd.

But anyhow, the realistic aoe dps potential is still way in favor of the smash, so the point becomes moot.

(for every orbital strike(60 sec cd (192k potential)) you get 6,5 sweeps/smashes (not calculating cd reduction(9 sec cd (6,5x40k=260k potential)). If you take these calculations seriously the potential of a sweep is still 70k more damage, so i'd say focus comes out a bit ahead

Edited August 5, 2013 by Skroting

[K_osss]

 

The Problem:

 

The damage potential of an average Force Sweep is about 8k x 5. That is a 40k damage potential in a single global. No other single ability has anywhere close to that damage potential, let alone an instant ability. Additionally, Force Sweep is on a relatively short cool down of roughly 9 seconds (with good uptime.) This gives the Focus tree an an insanely high damage potential in PVP. It's true that the majority of the time, Force Sweep will not hit 5 enemies at once. However, it isn't very difficult in PVP to regularly hit 2-3 people at a time on average, even against teams that know to watch for a Force Sweep.

 

I guess I assumed that the Devs meant it to be a healing pressure spec since it's been 18 months with minor functionality changes despite being reworked once and tinkered with 2x. Personally I think it fills the role they have for it.

[BARSAL]

The point is in the current state of pvp burst damage rules all and smash is the king of burst with some of the highest crit chance, armor penetration and surge all thanks to talents, not to mention that smash is one of two auto-crit abilities in the game and is also one of the hardest hitting abilities in the game AND is an AoE. It all goes back to Andrew's original point that just because the healer/tank comp is overpowered atm doesn't mean smash isn't.

[K_osss]

The point is in the current state of pvp burst damage rules all and smash is the king of burst with some of the highest crit chance, armor penetration and surge all thanks to talents, not to mention that smash is one of two auto-crit abilities in the game and is also one of the hardest hitting abilities in the game AND is an AoE. It all goes back to Andrew's original point that just because the healer/tank comp is overpowered atm doesn't mean smash isn't.

 

So that doesn't just make it balanced vs underpowered? There are other classes that can hit harder than Force Sweep. Combat has plenty of on demand burst - arguably better than Focus. Is it harder to pull off? Sure. Is that Focus' problem? I'd argue no. Does any other class provide the aoe burst damage of Focus? No, and that's it's niche.