NERF : Guardian Tanks

[Dragonexadon]

TLDR: Kitru, y u have no current HM experience? Theory crafting is one thing. Experience is another.

 

I have come to respect Kitru opinion in some aspect. Though I believe often his comments lean towards degrading others. His numbers are sound for sure.

 

I believe, from experience, that shadows are not as bad as others make them out to be. I currently have a shadow that I have done the majority of HM content in the game. As well as my friend, who Kitru meant two days ago, has a Shadow currently in nightmare progression. From his experience he also stats that Shadows are not in as bad of a spot as they make it out to be. Though clearly need love.

 

To our surprise, as our friend Lea was trying to form a pug group for SM TFB, what shadow tank does she find? Kitru. If you guys think his wall of text are long, you should hear him speak! Just as long winded. It does appear after talking with you in person, that you detest guardians. Down to their play style, and everything about them. I laughed pretty hard when, every-time I used reflect, you would comment about how much you hate it. My favorite moment of the night was when I stated

 

"Kitru, you know what the worse part about reflect is?"

"Nothing!"

 

It seems we were on the same page , for the most part, about how Guardians were pre 2.0. I am super shocked by your lack of experience in current HM content (by lack I mean none). Theory crafting goes a long way for sure. Experience goes a long way as well though. Both my Shadow tank friend and I were shocked when saw your progression. And I honestly have to say that after seeing this fact I lost a bit of respect and "prestige" level that I once held you at.

 

I am sure none of this takes away from your numbers. Yet first hand experience always seems a must to me and goes hand in hand with theory crafting. Numbers can't factor in utility for example. That said if you ever need a HM group to go with I would be more and happy to take you in a few runs.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[Ephesia]

...wherein they're effectively the best at everything.

 

Incorrect, and a very limited and simplistic approach. There are a lot of situations where a Shadow Tank could do a better job in comparison to a guardian.

[Dragonexadon]

Incorrect, and a very limited and simplistic approach. There are a lot of situations where a Shadow Tank could do a better job in comparison to a guardian.

 

Agreed. TFB first boss for example. Two shadow tanks are ideal. You can avoid add spawns completely.

[Kitru]

Incorrect, and a very limited and simplistic approach. There are a lot of situations where a Shadow Tank could do a better job in comparison to a guardian.

 

The "best at everything" was based upon categorical analysis, not situational analysis. In every feasible comparative category of tank performance, Guardians are either the best or effectively tied for the best. Of course you can find situations where any specific tank AC is better off than the others because they have different toolsets, but, when you look at what they're capable of compared to the other tanks, Guardians *easily* trounce every other AC.

 

It's not a question of "simplistic approach". It's a question of looking at capability rather than choosing arbitrary situations and using a simplistic assessment of comparative performance to gauge effectiveness (i.e. "better" or "worse" rather than quantifying the comparative difference in performance), especially since a lot of those arbitrary situations where a Shadow is "better" than a Guardian end up with the Shadow only having a minor advantage (able to tank Sunder last with Cartel Warlords and ignoring Huge Grenade; neither of those are worrying situations for a Guardian tank so being able to cheese them is a comparatively minute advantage) and being much less common than the situations where a Guardian is outright better.

[Kitru]

Agreed. TFB first boss for example. Two shadow tanks are ideal. You can avoid add spawns completely.

 

Yet, because of the spike damage potential of Writhing Horror, Shadows represent a substantial risk of having tank death occur entirely based on RNG. At that point, it's not a question of explicit "best" but rather whether you believe the adds or random tank death is the greater concern such that it's a subjective comparison.

[Spamfritter]

Schadenfreude at it's best with some of the shadow tanks here. They admit it too.

 

At any rate, they are just trolling now.

 

This "my class is bad so other classes must be brought down a level below me to make sure I am the prominent tank choice again" is a pathetic but an oddly humanlike thought pattern after all.

 

This is what I got from reading the very first post of this thread. Literally the only thing that should happen would be fixing the spikeyness of Assassin/Shadow tanks to bring them closer to the durability of Juggernaut/Guardian/Powertech/Vanguard tanks.

[Fallen_Dragon]

TLDR: Kitru, y u have no current HM experience? Theory crafting is one thing. Experience is another.

 

I have come to respect Kitru opinion in some aspect. Though I believe often his comments lean towards degrading others. His numbers are sound for sure.

 

I believe, from experience, that shadows are not as bad as others make them out to be. I currently have a shadow that I have done the majority of HM content in the game. As well as my friend, who Kitru meant two days ago, has a Shadow currently in nightmare progression. From his experience he also stats that Shadows are not in as bad of a spot as they make it out to be. Though clearly need love.

 

To our surprise, as our friend Lea was trying to form a pug group for SM TFB, what shadow tank does she find? Kitru. If you guys think his wall of text are long, you should hear him speak! Just as long winded. It does appear after talking with you in person, that you detest guardians. Down to their play style, and everything about them. I laughed pretty hard when, every-time I used reflect, you would comment about how much you hate it. My favorite moment of the night was when I stated

 

"Kitru, you know what the worse part about reflect is?"

"Nothing!"

 

It seems we were on the same page , for the most part, about how Guardians were pre 2.0. I am super shocked by your lack of experience in current HM content (by lack I mean none). Theory crafting goes a long way for sure. Experience goes a long way as well though. Both my Shadow tank friend and I were shocked when saw your progression. And I honestly have to say that after seeing this fact I lost a bit of respect and "prestige" level that I once held you at.

 

I am sure none of this takes away from your numbers. Yet first hand experience always seems a must to me and goes hand in hand with theory crafting. Numbers can't factor in utility for example. That said if you ever need a HM group to go with I would be more and happy to take you in a few runs.

 

Wait a second you're saying that the guy that has been ripping into the Jugg/Guardian community hasn't even done a lot of the content that he's commenting on? So all of his information is coming from a calculator and third hand information? That's like someone telling you how to drive when they've never been behind the wheel. Theory and books can give you a general idea but will never replace the experience you actually drive. How weak.

[leto_cleon]

It does appear after talking with you in person, that you detest guardians. Down to their play style, and everything about them. I laughed pretty hard when, every-time I used reflect, you would comment about how much you hate it.

And you wonder why the reception that Kitru gets on the Guardian forums is pretty frosty.

 

My favorite moment of the night was when I stated "Kitru, you know what the worse part about reflect is?"

"Nothing!"

It doesn't reflect melee damage lol.

 

I am super shocked by your lack of experience in current HM content (by lack I mean none). Theory crafting goes a long way for sure. Experience goes a long way as well though. Both my Shadow tank friend and I were shocked when saw your progression. And I honestly have to say that after seeing this fact I lost a bit of respect and "prestige" level that I once held you at.

Hmm....

 

I am sure none of this takes away from your numbers. Yet first hand experience always seems a must to me and goes hand in hand with theory crafting. Numbers can't factor in utility for example. That said if you ever need a HM group to go with I would be more and happy to take you in a few runs.

Kudos to you As a Guardian tank I do mind when both tanks are Guardians. I really have no qualms about having a Shadow co-tank and letting him/her main tank even in HM55 16man Ops. There was a rare occasion to I also got to heal on my Scoundrel in HM 16-man Golden Fury and was healing the Shadow main tank. Although GF isn't referenced as an example where Shadows are facing problems, the healing didn't feel spikey at all. (Unfortunately, GF that night wasn't cleared due to disconnects, crashes and lag, ie server/client fits).

[Kitru]

TLDR: Kitru, y u have no current HM experience? Theory crafting is one thing. Experience is another.

 

I do have current HM and NiM experience. I haven't cleared the last of everything for given content because my old guild fell apart when RotHC landed and I've had to resort to grouping with pugs because the guilds I've been in for the duration of RotHC haven't been able to reliably put together anything for progression. It's not a question of skill but rather one of finding people to run with.

 

Of course, I've never claimed to have cleared HM or NiM (for S&V that is; I did HM TfB back pre-RotHC and got mostly through HM TfB soon after RotHC landed), but the mechanics added aren't particularly complex. The changes are a matter of numbers (i.e. incoming damage and enrage timers), which is what I've been explicitly discussing, and required precision of execution, which should be a given for whatever tier you're running.

[Vaidinah]

I'm very curious as to how my arguments *aren't* reasonable. Hell, I still find it amusing that you're incapable of discussing balance without bringing up the previous Guardian *threat* performance as a justification for their *current* performance, wherein they're effectively the best at everything.

 

You can say that I'm unreasonable all you want but, until you actually bring in arguments that don't simply bring up your own sense of entitlement over *previous* bad design as a justification for current performance (I still facepalm at your "hybrid before means we cans be OP now!" argument), you're don't really have any ground to stand on.

 

You can attempt to invent justifications all you want, but I'm using numbers and basic logic. You've only ever used rhetoric to "prove" your side of the argument.

 

I have discussed tank balance many times without bringing up past issues with Guardians. Also, you must be thinking of some completely other person because I have never tried to justify the Guardian's current state with the way they were treated in the past. My discussion with pre-2.0 Guardians mostly involves myself correcting people about what the actual state the Guardians were in. You have made false accusations like this and when you stated I had a problem with current Guardian threat (I never said that either and it's currently good). I would invite you to try to find any instance where I claim that Guardians get to be OP now due to hybrid because I have never stated anything like that.

 

After that, you can try to come with a reasonable argument as to why Guardians are OP. Anyone can throw out numbers and flawed logic, but they are useless without context and without understanding how they fit into tanking as a whole. Until this is done, the arguments have no merit. Numbers especially are extremely easy to see in a biased manner as people do on a regular basis both here and in DPS discussions. It is especially evident when those people who rely solely on numbers are admittedly biased in favor of their own class and against others.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Vaidinah

[Maudril]

Lets see how the Shadow/Assassin is getting buffed before we decide that the Guardian/Juggernaut needs a nerf. For all we know, the buff to the Shadow/Assassin may put it at the level or above the power level the guardian has now. If we were to nerf it in the same stroke, we could end up with the reverse or worse.

 

I recently ran a couple of level 50 HM's with equivalent gear (My Juggernaut has primarily 140 gear at the moment, whereas my Assassin has primarily 164 on, so I decided to field test the both of them. And, well... once the spikiness is fixed, the Assassin's huge advantage in AOE threat generation (and overall pulling aggro off teammates from range), and less average reliance on a healer (helpful when the healer is seemingly rather ADD) will rather comfortably offset the Juggernaut's relative stability. I didn't find the assassin *hugely* lacking against the Juggernaut in gameplay, the main problem being of course spiky boss damage wiping me out faster. Yes, I know this is much larger problem as content gets tougher, but I do not see the disparity as being *So Wide* as to warrant a buff on one and *and* and a nerf on the other. Once the spikiness is not so bad that it is gamebreaking in higher level content, I think the pros and cons of one over the other will do rather nicely.

 

Lets not blow this out of proportion, Guardian/Juggernaut tanks are not easymode to tank. Survive, maybe, keep aggro over a wide area and make sure allies are not hit... the Shadow/Assassin is much better at that than they are.

 

I'm leveling a Vanguard tank next to see how they compare, since I know nothing about how they function.

 

I don't think many are eager to return to a time when the Assassins/Shadows dominate the Guardians/Juggernauts by a comfortable margin. I think the devs will just try to fix the spikiness, I doubt that they are going to heavy-handedly nerf the Guardians/Juggernauts in the same stroke. I personally rather like where they are, and will like where the Assassin/Shadow is when they fix it I am sure.

[Ephesia]

Exactly. It is rather easy to sit back behind a screen do lots of math equations and tell people that Guardian is the best tank. In actuality My guild has a Shadow main tank and we are doing greatly. Yes, certainly I do agree that Shadows have left kind of weak especially considering how hard some bosses can hit on 16 man encounters, but the gap is not as wide as some people here make it out to be, and more than anything else the solution to your problems are not linked in any way whatsoever with a nerf on guardians. When you come here advocating nerf on guardians because your own class is weak you come off as someone who is displeased with your gaming experience and wish that same displeasure on others who have a balanced class after the difficulties pre 2.0, and naturally people don't take kindly on that kind of attitude. Edited August 13, 2013 by Ephesia
Added some words

[Gjest]

I have a main Powertech and a shadow and jugg alt. The information I've gathered from playing these classes follows.

 

Powertech Pretty decent at soaking up damage, threat control, and damage. Takes a fair amount of practice to get used to but his self heals are definately a good bonus and in my opinion translate into decent damage mitigation.

 

Shadow Amazing at threat control. bit squishier than the other two, but make up for it in other ways. The main complaint I'm hearing, not out loud but in a kind of silent way is SHADOWS REQUIRE SKILL. They are in my opinion the hardest tank to learn. But a good one is more than enough.

 

Juggernaut I've only played to 30 so far but honestly It's a bit boring They are good at taking damage, better than the others. Their threat control is annoying though. To be honest they're simpler to play as well.

 

In summary:

Powertech = Good all rounder tank, fair learning curve.

 

Shadow = Strong threat control, not so strong damage taking ability, decent utility skills, Steep learning curve.

 

Juggernaut = Strong Damage mitigation, sub par threat control, pretty easy to get the hang of. --> (admittedly incomplete as I've not played all the way through. Just my impressions)

 

All have their innate strengths and weaknesses and I am tempted to say that jugg does have an edge on the others, kinda feels like playing on easy mode sometimes. However the main difference between say my shadow and your powertech isn't the abilities. It's the skill with which we use their abilities.

[kennethdale]

Exactly. It is rather easy to sit back behind a screen do lots of math equations and tell people that Guardian is the best tank. In actuality My guild has a Shadow main tank and we are doing greatly. Yes, certainly I do agree that Shadows have left kind of weak especially considering how hard some bosses can hit on 16 man encounters, but the gap is not as wide as some people here make it out to be, and more than anything else the solution to your problems are not linked in any way whatsoever with a nerf on guardians. When you come here advocating nerf on guardians because your own class is weak you come off as someone who is displeased with your gaming experience and wish that same displeasure on others who have a balanced class after the difficulties pre 2.0, and naturally people don't take kindly on that kind of attitude.

 

Theory-crafting is theory whereas observed evidence is something different. The number of people who have experienced the issue of spike Sin/Shad death first hand is so limited and yet so over-reported that it is a bit ridiculous. I stand by the fact that guilds have downed all current content with Sin/Shad tanks. The constant counter to this is that the guilds that chose to stick with their Sin/Shad tank chose the player not the class which I can recall KBN, Kitru, and many other people saying constantly in reference to many other situations, so it would seem that in all cases that it is in all cases the best decision. How is it any different in this? Some guilds will always opt for the FotM whereas the smarter ones will choose to use their proven players unless it is impossible to use a player on their preferred class.

 

The biggest argument about Guardians/Juggernauts being over-powered seems to be Saber Reflect and how unbalanced it is. How many abilities do Shad/Sins and PT/VGs have that are usable at range? What about Juggs? They have Saber Throw and Vicious Throw (and one of those can only be used under 30%) neither of which generate much threat at all. How then is a Juggernaut supposed to hold threat on ranged mobs? Or is that supposed to be the "niche" of two of the other classes. Actually, its better put that Jugg/Guard's niche is NOT tanking ranged. Its said that a Jugg/Guard can simply "LAWLSaberReflect" and win. I challenge any of you to do exactly that: Jump/Leap in and hit Saber Reflect and nothing else. How long will you hold aggro on mobs that are being attacked? I know for a fact that its not as long as you'd think.

 

As for PT/VGs and their "smoothness" niche; I honestly can easily tell the difference between spikiness when healing a Jugg/Guard and healing a PT/VG. Is it less so than pre-2.0, sure. But it is still very noticeable and if the two were really "too close" then it would be impossible to tell. My personal favorite tanks to heal are PT/VGs simply because of how smooth they are - I can easily predict when a PT/VG will take damage. For a Jugg/Guard on a fight I've done with them before I can guess pretty accurately when I'll see the spike damage. For a Sin/Shad, there is no guessing. You can quote formulae, math, models, and whatever else you want to throw up as facts but the fact is that empirical evidence outweighs theory. Here is a great example: Up until the early 1900s it was widely accepted that space was filled with a substance called ether because we could not understand how light could move through nothing since everything else we knew of had to have a medium. UNTIL it was proved that light can move in a vacuum. What math and logic claim can be disproved by empirical evidence and until I see combat logs wherein PT/VGs are consistently getting hit for as much spike damage as a Jugg/Guard, I just won't believe it. The same is true for whether or not the Sin/Shad spikiness affects people outside of specific NiM encounters which the vast majority of players will never enter or experience.

 

If 10 Million people are paying the same amount for a product but 99,999,000 of them have a .1% chance of X bug occurring during content they regularly play and the other 1,000 have a 1% chance of Y bug occurring during content that only they will play, which bug takes precedence? Kitru will say that both need to get fixed because that is what he honestly believes but thats not how business works. Period. Someone else pointed out his lack of understanding of how programming on a professional level (which I had pointed out a while ago, but was dismissed because how on earth could Kitru be wrong?!!?!).

 

This will get ignored because Kitru and the others will continue to flame anyone who disagree with their QQing but I'll say it regardless. These are the 3 things I think absolutely need to get changed in 2.4:

 

1) Force Shroud needs to be fixed. You can't have a tooltip that says one thing and then have it work differently from that without a reasonable explanation [EG: Honor Among Thieves talent in Subtlety for Rogues in World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King was intentionally broken in order to bring them into a better balance]. This skill should never have been broken and it should be restored to removal of any removable hostile effects and 100% resistance to force and tech attacks.

 

2) Assassin/Shadow tanks need to have an armor buff talent re-introduced to bring their base damage reduction back into line with other tanks.

 

3) Kolto Overload (can't remember the Pub name) needs to be re-worked again to make it actually useful in terms of reacting to burst damage as opposed to a minimal heal-over-time that a) gets wasted if not used and b) does not actually help healers bring a Powertech/Vanguard tank's health back into a manageable range.

[TridusSWTOR]

Everything kennethdale said is spot on.

 

Couldn't of said it better.

[MillionsKNives]

snip

 

The very fact that you mention pretty much the same things that the theory crafters champion as needing fixing says to me that you agree more than you may realize. A lot of it seems to get lost in the back and forth between them and the people who insist that said problems don't exist, all is fine. That coupled with the VERY lacking communication from the devs on these issues just breeds animosity.

 

You mention that the issue is overinflated, but when assassins and shadows have been trying to get ANY attention on this for months how loud do they need to be to get it addressed. Sitting quietly in the proper forums and discussing it like good little children brought no results. Being loud and overinflating the issue gets it the attention it needs. Even if it only represents a problem for a small percentage it is a clear issue with the class with high tier content.

 

Also, it has been said many times in this thread that the OP and others don't genuinely want to nerf guardians. What they want is for balance to be restored, and if just asking for fixes to shadows and assassins gets no response then perhaps asking for nerfs for guardians will, whether that actually brings nerfs or just draws more attention to the problems with the former.

 

Unfortunately, like I said above, a lot of this gets lost in the back-and-forth and has been playing out over months in multiple threads and subforums.

Edited August 13, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[kennethdale]

The very fact that you mention pretty much the same things that the theory crafters champion as needing fixing says to me that you agree more than you may realize. A lot of it seems to get lost in the back and forth between them and the people who insist that said problems don't exist, all is fine. That coupled with the VERY lacking communication from the devs on these issues just breeds animosity.

 

You mention that the issue is overinflated, but when assassins and shadows have been trying to get ANY attention on this for months how loud do they need to be to get it addressed. Sitting quietly in the proper forums and discussing it like good little children brought no results. Being loud and overinflating the issue gets it the attention it needs. Even if it only represents a problem for a small percentage it is a clear issue with the class with high tier content.

 

Also, it has been said many times in this thread that the OP and others don't genuinely want to nerf guardians. What they want is for balance to be restored, and if just asking for fixes to shadows and assassins gets no response then perhaps asking for nerfs for guardians will, whether that actually brings nerfs or just draws more attention to the problems with the former.

 

Unfortunately, like I said above, a lot of this gets lost in the back-and-forth and has been playing out over months in multiple threads and subforums.

 

The truly sad thing is that I realize that. I started my discussion in this and other similar threads by attempting to come at the situation from the perspective of "we're all tanks lets tackle this together" and instead was met with legitimate calls for Juggs/Guards to be nerfed as well as being called out for simply playing a Juggernaut myself. The entire discussion is ridiculous in a game where it is always the better decision to bring the player not the class and because of that (in spite of the issues, documented or not) content that the most vocal in these threads would have you believe is impossible has been downed. Time and time again.

 

The other truly sad thing is that time and time again legitimate arguments based on observed empirical evidence are ignored or claimed to be false because the "math" says something different. Based on that logic I should run into McDonald's if I buy a large French-Fry and don't win something in the Monopoly game since a Large French-Fry comes with 4 chances to win and they claim right there on the Fry box that 1 in 4 wins. Judged solely on that simple bit of mathematics, I should win but the truth of what should (or more accurately, might) happen when it comes to probabilities and the truth of what does happen are often far from similar. Add into the basics of probability the fact that in this case you are dealing with tens of hundreds of variables on both sides of the fight (the player and the non-player character) and the margin for error becomes massive. Kitru claims he'd happily admit to being wrong if someone simply gave a mathematical proof of it when that isn't what is necessary at all. In fact, the burden of proof lies entirely with the person claiming there is an issue.

 

You want the devs to believe this is a real issue? Give them actual numbers. Give them parses that show this happening and then provide the math to back it up. As far as I have ever seen, this hasn't been done. I've heard claims about it happening to this person or that and then claims about the models but what all that ignores is that the devs (the people who actually wrote the code behind all that math) did tests (without commenting on how thorough said tests were) and used their own models to predict how damage would play out. Why should they believe that their tools which based solely on the fact that the people who created the formulae to calculate all of the damage and mitigation's tools are inferior to self-professed amateurs?

 

These are all points I've tried to make in the past but have been met with the stone wall of "You're wrong because you play a juggernaut and/or because you didn't do the math". Its a patheticly bad joke that is actually exactly like the Global Warming issue and the Ozone Hole (both of which have begun to "fix themselves" in spite of what was widely preached as "fact"): a bunch of people got all up in a huff and forgot that the earth has for millions of years experienced hundreds of climate shifts or that the make-up of the earth's atmosphere has shifted dramatically over the course of its lifespan and without a doubt there have been and will be other Ozone holes. It boils down to a problem that a few people notice, it gets picked up by a big name and over-inflated until the drama and outrage take control of the entire situation and when there is a demand for actual, physical evidence all that gets offered in return is snide remarks.

[Dragonexadon]

bad joke that is actually exactly like the Global Warming issue and the Ozone Hole

Please do not bring a global warming debate into this!

[TridusSWTOR]

Also, it has been said many times in this thread that the OP and others don't genuinely want to nerf guardians. What they want is for balance to be restored, and if just asking for fixes to shadows and assassins gets no response then perhaps asking for nerfs for guardians will, whether that actually brings nerfs or just draws more attention to the problems with the former.

.

 

To the bold part, because clearly from the post I read on this thread, there are some who "genuinely" do want to nerf guardian tanks, for whatever reason.

 

What you are doing is actually admitting that the shadow community as a whole decided because they didn't get a response(how long did juggs wait?) they are going to take a stance that they don't agree with, just so they can get attention.

 

If that isn't the definition of childish entitlement, then I don't know what is. Until the ignorance that is the shadow community admits that, then there is no reason to stop reminding them how terrible they are at suggestions for the game.

[Dragonexadon]

If that isn't the definition of childish entitlement, then I don't know what is. Until the ignorance that is the shadow community admits that, then there is no reason to stop reminding them how terrible they are at suggestions for the game.

 

To be honest I hate the idea of class communities to begin with. Someone mentioned this above. We are all tanks. I want Shadows to do well. I LOVE playing my shadow alt. Clearly we all feel most attached to our mains. Some of us so attached that we feel entitled, as you mentioned above.

[MillionsKNives]

To the bold part, because clearly from the post I read on this thread, there are some who "genuinely" do want to nerf guardian tanks, for whatever reason.

 

What you are doing is actually admitting that the shadow community as a whole decided because they didn't get a response(how long did juggs wait?) they are going to take a stance that they don't agree with, just so they can get attention.

 

If that isn't the definition of childish entitlement, then I don't know what is. Until the ignorance that is the shadow community admits that, then there is no reason to stop reminding them how terrible they are at suggestions for the game.

 

Only if you ignore the fact that exaggerated and tantrum-like posts, especially those calling for nerfs, are the only ones that BioWare ever seems to pay attention to. If acting childish is what it takes to get the attention it deserves then perhaps that's what's called for. They only ever saw the thread about shadow spikiness because Leafy spammed it all over the forums until someone saw it. Even then they're only, "looking into it".

[Dragonexadon]

Only if you ignore the fact that exaggerated and tantrum-like posts, especially those calling for nerfs, are the only ones that BioWare ever seems to pay attention to. If acting childish is what it takes to get the attention it deserves then perhaps that's what's called for. They only ever saw the thread about shadow spikiness because Leafy spammed it all over the forums until someone saw it. Even then they're only, "looking into it".

 

Well perhaps having class reps can change this. It has yet to be seen how well this will work. In theory though Kitru will be able to directly tell the developers the concerns of Shadows as a whole. (Don't ignore the dps/pvp side of things MR Kitru!)..

 

Dragging other classes down because yours does not preform though just hurts the tanking community as a whole. No matter how you justify it.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[MillionsKNives]

Well perhaps having class reps can change this. It has yet to be seen how well this will work. In theory though Kitru will be able to directly tell the developers the concerns of Shadows as a whole. (Don't ignore the dps/pvp side of things MR Kitru!)..

 

Dragging other classes down because yours does not preform though just hurts the tanking community as a whole. No matter how you justify it.

 

Actually, dragging another class down because ours is underperforming is a perfectly acceptable form of balance. Hell they've been doing it to shadows over the entire life of the game. Nerf after nerf to "bring them in line with the other tanks".

 

Which is better should be taken on a case by case basis, but balance is the key. In the end being over or under powered is all a matter of perspective. From the view of the best class, the other is underpowered. From the view of the worst class, the best is overpowered. As long as the mechanics and gameplay are sound it doesn't matter where that dividing line lies, as long as there is parity amongst the classes.

Edited August 13, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[TridusSWTOR]

Actually, dragging another class down because ours is underperforming is a perfectly acceptable form of balance. Hell they've been doing it to shadows over the entire life of the game. Nerf after nerf to "bring them in line with the other tanks".

 

Which is better should be taken on a case by case basis, but balance is the key. In the end being over or under powered is all a matter of perspective. From the view of the best class, the other is underpowered. From the view of the worst class, the best is overpowered. As long as the mechanics and gameplay are sound it doesn't matter where that dividing line lies, as long as there is parity amongst the classes.

 

Yes, bring guardians down to the shadows level. Then guilds will only bring PT's for their tank option.

 

Makes total sense.

 

Look at merc healers, look at op healers- Nerfs and buffs come in chunks and not bites. Those aren't even the only two classes that can prove this either.

[MillionsKNives]

Yes, bring guardians down to the shadows level. Then guilds will only bring PT's for their tank option.

 

Makes total sense.

 

Look at merc healers, look at op healers- Nerfs and buffs come in chunks and not bites. Those aren't even the only two classes that can prove this either.

 

If PTs were glaringly better in that case then that wouldn't be parity now would it?