PVP tanks - PT vs Jugg

[Atramar]

Anything a PT tank can do a Jugg can do better.

 

well, jugg can't stop caps from multiple people while rooted. can't stop caps while stunned (novare coast, south, enemy sends a grenade and 4 people are capping, and has trouble supporting from distance (So he's guarding healer withing a range of guard, stopping caps from 20 meters, and throwing a taunts, pulls to distract enemy).

 

nice dig on 2.4 changes. can I 'has' some?

[ZIMMOZMAN]

This thread is pointless, anyone who has played rateds since 2.0 will tell you tank vg's are useless sorry to the fan boys but its fact. No way you would use a vg tank as the main tank or use him as node guard/off tank.

Anyone who disagrees hasn't played ranked or plays on a server where the only ranked going on is one team smashing pugs

[HBMalachorfive]

This thread is pointless, anyone who has played rateds since 2.0 will tell you tank vg's are useless sorry to the fan boys but its fact. No way you would use a vg tank as the main tank or use him as node guard/off tank.

Anyone who disagrees hasn't played ranked or plays on a server where the only ranked going on is one team smashing pugs

 

Because there is always a set team list. Wrong.

Yes loading your team with FoTM classes will more often than not work out well for you but there is always that one rated team that is completely unorthodox and they have a tendency to Roflstomp FoTM teams. Take my team for example most of the time we have a Guardian tank, roughly about 70%, but when we feel like it we will sub in a VG tank just for fun.

Node guard will never change, that is a Tanksins/Shadow job end of story.

Then there is me. I play a DF scoundrel. Do you know how easy it is for me to melt Tanksins? Tech DoTs vs a Tanksin is lolworthy, just gotta make sure I find him first. Oh and I can spam wounding shots 5 times before UH runs out, by then he's pretty much dead and your node is mine

[foxmob]

Anything a PT tank can do a Jugg can do better.

 

this is true in practical terms (not quite literal though). however, Caroth (VG tank) > Deinon (Jugg tank). equal skill, it's the jugg hands down. there's just more upside to juggs on the majority of the maps. player skill, however, remain a more important factor. but that's true of almost any AC comparison.

[Atramar]

This thread is pointless, anyone who has played rateds since 2.0 will tell you tank vg's are useless sorry to the fan boys but its fact. No way you would use a vg tank as the main tank or use him as node guard/off tank.

Anyone who disagrees hasn't played ranked or plays on a server where the only ranked going on is one team smashing pugs

 

Ok. Why.

Your argument isn't technical. You just say 'jugg for ranked, VG/PT sucks and who dissagrees suck'

 

unless you are trying to troll us.

 

what tanks do on ranked pvp, my understanding is:

stopping caps

guarding healers

annoying enemy healers and DDs

taunts

scoring with da ball.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Atramar

[ZIMMOZMAN]

what tanks do on ranked pvp, my understanding is:

stopping caps- yes a tank problem but you have 6 other people with you most time to help stop it

guarding healers- guardian leap beats anything a vg can do

annoying enemy healers and DDs - for ranked you shouldnt be annoying anyone just peeling and only cc'ing the dps on the healer. Maybe using a hard cc on the target your dps is focusing or the healer healing the target but still 5 dps can do that

taunts- vg's aoe taunt is ok since it affects the area around the target not yourself but guardian aoe taunt also gives a bubble to all nearby allies

scoring with da ball. no contest guardian is the best class to score with in the game

[NamikazeNaruto]

After playing all 3 tank classes I will state my experience of main tanking with each.

 

 

 

Assassin/Shadow - Usually when I tank with this class I would die before my guarded target because the damage sins take is so spiky and unpredictable. Their unshielded mitigation is very low compared to the other 2 tanks. They are the most mobile and take the most skill to survive with. They are the best node guarders.

 

 

 

Vanguard/Powertech - When I tanked with this class it was night and day from my Assassin/Shadow. I could survive with this guy all day. I pretty much never died before the people I would be guarding. I could literally stall a group of 6 people for 60-90 seconds before I died. I feel they have the best individual survivability and are good at slowing enemies between choke points, but not the best. They are slightly worse node guarders than Assassins, because they need Shoulder Cannon for that, which goes on cooldown for 90 seconds.

 

 

 

Guardian/Juggernaut - This is the best class for main tanking, because this class has the most CCs and tools to help their allies with. They have a third taunt. AoE taunt, normal single target taunt, and Intercede which gives the target that intercede to 30% increased damage reduction for 6 seconds. With the proper set bonus, it also heals the guardian every time they use it. For 8-9% HP I believe? As far as defensive cooldowns they have Saber Reflect, Saber Ward, Enure, Warding Call. Defensive procs include Blade Barrier, Blade Barricade, Guardian Slash, Guardianship, Shield Specialization.

 

Where this tank class really shines though, and what makes it the best tank class is their CCs. They have Hilt Strike(4 second single target stun), Force Stasis(Single target 4 second stun), Awe(AoE 8 second Mezz) 2 Leap Roots, Force Push, and an AoE Slow that they can spam anytime. They have more tools to peel for allies than anybody else, and they actually have a couple of tools to protect their allies with as well. Intercede's 6 second 30% damage reduction on a single ally, and Guardianship absorbing a moderate amount of damage for ALL allies within range. This is and the fact they are a necessity in huttball make this tank class still the best class to bring in RWZ for main tanking.

Edited July 21, 2013 by NamikazeNaruto

[Atramar]

what tanks do on ranked pvp, my understanding is:

stopping caps- yes a tank problem but you have 6 other people with you most time to help stop it

guarding healers- guardian leap beats anything a vg can do

annoying enemy healers and DDs - for ranked you shouldnt be annoying anyone just peeling and only cc'ing the dps on the healer. Maybe using a hard cc on the target your dps is focusing or the healer healing the target but still 5 dps can do that

taunts- vg's aoe taunt is ok since it affects the area around the target not yourself but guardian aoe taunt also gives a bubble to all nearby allies

scoring with da ball. no contest guardian is the best class to score with in the game

 

so I got that right, cool.

 

stopping caps, well 6 other people - 4 dps and 2 healers, dps focus on killing healers, so would be better if they didn't had to tab enemy to interrupt caps, PT/Van is better to stop caps due to range

you mean 4 dps, while they focusing healer1, PT can pull and put into uncomfortable place healer2 staying close to his healers

how much is that bubble, never had a chance to test that, if it's near Sonic Barrier from scream, it's about 1.5k right?

no argument there, jugg is most survival tank of all with a set of defensive cooldowns that can be chained nicely, what he can't do, is leap to someone on edge and have guarantee of not being KB'd.

friendly leap is handy, can't argue there either.

 

on that note, even if I am defending PT's , I do pvp with my jugg more now, there are situations where he is unbeatable hands down, and mezz is nice. still can't tell which one is 'better', jugg is missing slow paired with usual aoe attack (flame sweep), slow/kb/root immunity, and stealth scan (not to mention shoulder cannon), while on PT I miss friendly leap, full set of cooldowns, and that 6 second mezz (not to mention saber reflect).

 

geez...

 

@NamikazeNaruto:

very good explanation. Thank you. will meditate on that

Edited July 21, 2013 by Atramar

[Polymerize]

After playing all 3 tank classes I will state my experience of main tanking with each.

 

 

 

Assassin/Shadow - Usually when I tank with this class I would die before my guarded target because the damage sins take is so spiky and unpredictable. Their unshielded mitigation is very low compared to the other 2 tanks. They are the most mobile and take the most skill to survive with. They are the best node guarders.

 

 

 

Vanguard/Powertech - When I tanked with this class it was night and day from my Assassin/Shadow. I could survive with this guy all day. I pretty much never died before the people I would be guarding. I could literally stall a group of 6 people for 60-90 seconds before I died. I feel they have the best individual survivability and are good at slowing enemies between choke points, but not the best. They are slightly worse node guarders than Assassins, because they need Shoulder Cannon for that, which goes on cooldown for 90 seconds.

 

 

 

Guardian/Juggernaut - This is the best class for main tanking, because this class has the most CCs and tools to help their allies with. They have a third taunt. AoE taunt, normal single target taunt, and Intercede which gives the target that intercede to 30% increased damage reduction for 6 seconds. With the proper set bonus, it also heals the guardian every time they use it. For 8-9% HP I believe? As far as defensive cooldowns they have Saber Reflect, Saber Ward, Enure, Warding Call. Defensive procs include Blade Barrier, Blade Barricade, Guardian Slash, Guardianship, Shield Specialization.

 

Where this tank class really shines though, and what makes it the best tank class is their CCs. They have Hilt Strike(4 second single target stun), Force Stasis(Single target 4 second stun), Awe(AoE 8 second Mezz) 2 Leap Roots, Force Push, and an AoE Slow that they can spam anytime. They have more tools to peel for allies than anybody else, and they actually have a couple of tools to protect their allies with as well. Intercede's 6 second 30% damage reduction on a single ally, and Guardianship absorbing a moderate amount of damage for ALL allies within range. This is and the fact they are a necessity in huttball make this tank class still the best class to bring in RWZ for main tanking.

 

 

 

To no surprise, you have no mention whatsoever about the PT/VG's pull; and what strategies could and should revolve around the pull in all ranked team's games.

[Brunner_Venda]

As usual, a stupid pull is the reason that PT/VG tanks get less DPS and fewer defensive CD's. The pull might make up the difference for ONE of the two, but not both.

 

But hey! You get a pull once every minute! Derp derp! Think strategy! Derp! But you can't be on our ranked team, because everyone would still rather have a jugg.

 

Sorry. Come up with something better. VG tanks need a couple of quality of life improvements. Not a redesign, just a few things that would give the class a small boost.

[foxmob]

To no surprise, you have no mention whatsoever about the PT/VG's pull; and what strategies could and should revolve around the pull in all ranked team's games.

 

pull, ranged taunts and the two stuns are basic VG abils. you're better off with dps VGs. guard requires proximity to your guarded teammate. this is an inherent advantage for guaridian tanks, because they're the only tank class to push opponents way. and if they get pulled away from their guarded target, more's the better, a guardian leap dmg debuff.

 

something I noticed yesterday running with a full VG tank in kickball was that he could put out a lot more dps than the guardian counterpart. in a CW that saw mid capped reasonably quickly, the VG tank had 443k dps and 500k+ prot. that was not an anomaly. the next game...I can't remember the map, either NC or VS, he actually inverted those figures and had 550k dps and like 400k something prot. this was not even remotely high end rated competition. it was a pug vs a kickball team. but I don't think that should affect his dps numbers too badly. the other team not being able to focus fire/dps may have kept him alive more and reduced his prot though? in any case, the dps was surprisingly high, imo.

 

and something that pissed me off in a CW last week (just a reg pug) was where we were having a hard time recapping our natural node. I cleared the area with a teammate and he started channeling right away. as a PT, I ran to the far south wall so as to grapple the respawn before he could interrupt the cap. well...they had a safety who mezz'd my channeler. I saw the mezz and ran back up, but it was far too late. as a guardian, I could have 1) spammed taunt to pull the scoundrel out of stealth and 2) remained on the platform because I would have been sitting on a push rather than a pull. anectodal evidence for sure, but it stuck in my craw.

Edited July 21, 2013 by foxmob

[Polymerize]

pull, ranged taunts and the two stuns are basic VG abils. you're better off with dps VGs. guard requires proximity to your guarded teammate. this is an inherent advantage for guaridian tanks, because they're the only tank class to push opponents way. and if they get pulled away from their guarded target, more's the better, a guardian leap dmg debuff.

 

something I noticed yesterday running with a full VG tank in kickball was that he could put out a lot more dps than the guardian counterpart. in a CW that saw mid capped reasonably quickly, the VG tank had 443k dps and 500k+ prot. that was not an anomaly. the next game...I can't remember the map, either NC or VS, he actually inverted those figures and had 550k dps and like 400k something prot. this was not even remotely high end rated competition. it was a pug vs a kickball team. but I don't think that should affect his dps numbers too badly. the other team not being able to focus fire/dps may have kept him alive more and reduced his prot though? in any case, the dps was surprisingly high, imo.

 

and something that pissed me off in a CW last week (just a reg pug) was where we were having a hard time recapping our natural node. I cleared the area with a teammate and he started channeling right away. as a PT, I ran to the far south wall so as to grapple the respawn before he could interrupt the cap. well...they had a safety who mezz'd my channeler. I saw the mezz and ran back up, but it was far too late. as a guardian, I could have 1) spammed taunt to pull the scoundrel out of stealth and 2) remained on the platform because I would have been sitting on a push rather than a pull. anectodal evidence for sure, but it stuck in my craw.

 

Aye, good points.

 

I think having a Jugg main tank and a secondary tank as the PT tank/advproto hybrid would be my vote for the rated composition.

[JohnElias]

What's better, a slight damage reduction/leap to teammate, or completely negating a DPS by pulling him away from the Healer? Both points are arguable, both tanks can do what they are made to do: Tank. I would say it's up to you and what you feel comfortable playing with!

 

I can see PT tanks being valuable in Ranked, but some of the defensive CDs of the other tanks are slightly better than PT and thus why they are picked over a PT tank.

[NamikazeNaruto]

What's better, a slight damage reduction/leap to teammate, or completely negating a DPS by pulling him away from the Healer? Both points are arguable, both tanks can do what they are made to do: Tank. I would say it's up to you and what you feel comfortable playing with!

 

I can see PT tanks being valuable in Ranked, but some of the defensive CDs of the other tanks are slightly better than PT and thus why they are picked over a PT tank.

 

The thing about the pull is, the push does the same thing, gets an enemy away from your teammate, and it does it better. The reason was already stated in that pulling someone away from your teammate often requires you to be out of the range of your guard proximity, hence increasing the damage your guarded target takes. Meanwhile push also gets someone far away from your guarded target, without you having to leave your guarded target's side.

 

Oil Slick is better than Freezing Force by itself, but the fact that Guardians can spam this anytime and Vanguards have a cooldown on theirs is what makes Freezing Force better in the end. Also Guardians have more CC to peel off of their teammates, and 2 abilities that help their allies take less damage.

 

If that alone wasn't enough, having at least one Guardian in your group who can switch to tank spec with tank gear is a requirement just for Huttball alone in Ranked Warzones. Basically the defining thing here is that Guardian has more abilities that help the team survive, rather than just their own survival.

Edited July 21, 2013 by NamikazeNaruto

[TheCourier-]

Aye, good points.

 

I think having a Jugg main tank and a secondary tank as the PT tank/advproto hybrid would be my vote for the rated composition.

 

The iron fist spec for vanguards does not work at all. It is one of the worst hybrid specs of SWTOR. It's damage is very low.

 

PT can be stealth capped, which is why running either 1 juggernaut, 1 assassin, or 1 juggernaut and having an operative node guard, is what ranked teams do.

 

As for the discussion of juggernaut versus PT, PT can tank well, but PT is awful at scoring at huttball. The lack of a double jump (force jump and guardian leap) kills PT for huttball.

[Polymerize]

The iron fist spec for vanguards does not work at all. It is one of the worst hybrid specs of SWTOR. It's damage is very low.

 

PT can be stealth capped, which is why running either 1 juggernaut, 1 assassin, or 1 juggernaut and having an operative node guard, is what ranked teams do.

 

As for the discussion of juggernaut versus PT, PT can tank well, but PT is awful at scoring at huttball. The lack of a double jump (force jump and guardian leap) kills PT for huttball.

 

What hybrid do you speak of? A hybrid between the PT tanking tree and advanced prototype is most certainly not a garbage spec.

 

I think I am going to have to hide your posts. They are annoyingly dimwitted.

[TheCourier-]

What hybrid do you speak of? A hybrid between the PT tanking tree and advanced prototype is most certainly not a garbage spec.

 

I think I am going to have to hide your posts. They are annoyingly dimwitted.

 

Lol. You talk a lot of trash talk for someone who I've never seen while playing ranked. Keep using the iron fist spec if you want to. It's an awful spec that does not work for PVP. Full tank can do more damage. I have a friend who routinely does 500000+ damage while playing full tank vanguard.

[Polymerize]

Lol. You talk a lot of trash talk for someone who I've never seen while playing ranked. Keep using the iron fist spec if you want to. It's an awful spec that does not work for PVP. Full tank can do more damage. I have a friend who routinely does 500000+ damage while playing full tank vanguard.

 

Fluff damage numbers? Oh that is new and cool.

[TheCourier-]

something I noticed yesterday running with a full VG tank in kickball was that he could put out a lot more dps than the guardian counterpart. in a CW that saw mid capped reasonably quickly, the VG tank had 443k dps and 500k+ prot. that was not an anomaly. the next game...I can't remember the map, either NC or VS, he actually inverted those figures and had 550k dps and like 400k something prot. this was not even remotely high end rated competition. it was a pug vs a kickball team. but I don't think that should affect his dps numbers too badly. the other team not being able to focus fire/dps may have kept him alive more and reduced his prot though? in any case, the dps was surprisingly high, imo.

 

 

Are you talking about Caroth? This is a WZ where he did a lot of damage while playing full tank spec vanguard: http://i.imgur.com/qsHpI9W.jpg .

 

The 1.2+ million commando is mine. Caroth has been a friend of mine for months. Full tank vanguard can do a lot of damage.

Edited July 21, 2013 by TheCourier-

[Zoom_VI]

Lol. You talk a lot of trash talk for someone who I've never seen while playing ranked. Keep using the iron fist spec if you want to. It's an awful spec that does not work for PVP. Full tank can do more damage. I have a friend who routinely does 500000+ damage while playing full tank vanguard.

 

Most if that is fluff off of pulse engine and ion cell, vanguards actually have the worst ST dps of the three tanks, but the most AoE dps by far

[ZIMMOZMAN]

Are you talking about Caroth? This is a WZ where he did a lot of damage while playing full tank spec vanguard: http://i.imgur.com/qsHpI9W.jpg .

 

The 1.2+ million commando is mine. Caroth has been a friend of mine for months. Full tank vanguard can do a lot of damage.

sorry but i call bs on that, no way he could of done that without switching to dps in the attacking round.

[foxmob]

PT can be stealth capped, which is why running either 1 juggernaut, 1 assassin, or 1 juggernaut and having an operative node guard, is what ranked teams do. l.

??? as of 2.0, you have to kill a PT/VG (any spec) in order to take the node. even in the sap capital of the world, ahg.

[foxmob]

Are you talking about Caroth? This is a WZ where he did a lot of damage while playing full tank spec vanguard: http://i.imgur.com/qsHpI9W.jpg .

 

The 1.2+ million commando is mine. Caroth has been a friend of mine for months. Full tank vanguard can do a lot of damage.

 

yes. he tanked for us last night. wonderful guard swapping. he was on it often before I called anything.

[kweassa]

Most if that is fluff off of pulse engine and ion cell, vanguards actually have the worst ST dps of the three tanks, but the most AoE dps by far

 

Yep. Hence, "fluff" damage.

 

Doesn't really help much with anything, but really helps with racking up bullshi* damage counter numbers for the endgame scoreboard. Also, a more crucial factor as to why Vanguards/PT tanks show higher damage than one might think, is that they are ranged. Ranged = minimal deal-loss time. No time spent in chasing around or moving up to enemy, just constant stream of damage.

[foxmob]

Ion cell snares everybody he fluffs (heh), so I'm fine with that. but I'm not in the camp that PT/VG is worthwhile better for any rated team, given equal skill. I don't think they're a terrible detriment either.

 

lemme put it like this, I would take a mando dps onto a rated team, and said mando is VERY fragile compared to the sniper standing nest to him. it's a gamble, and you need to change your strats around to protect him while still taking advantage of his net. with a VG tank, I wouldn't have to retrain my entire team. he could step right in and do the same job as the guardian.