Bolster.. why are some so threatened by it?

[Vasagi]

I'm not threatened by bolster.

 

I just don't care for the fact that PVE junk gets better stats than PVP partisan gear.

 

I don't want to PVE. Ever. Not one raid. No grinding the same boring sandbag mobs over and over. Just no. That game is bad. It sucks.

 

I want a clear gear progression PVE -> Parrisan -> conqueror, etc.

 

No gear set should give more than a 5% or so advantage per ladder step to the guy wearing it.

 

Too hard for Bioware? I think this is what they tried to do, but with all the bugs...

 

I hate to say this, but I feel this philosophy came from WoW. So many PvE elitists went into rage mode because entry level PvP gear was equal to entry level PvE gear that Blizzard changed PvP gear. It was constant posts of "welfare epics" because anyone DARED to get decent gear without bootlicking to the uber PvE guilds.

 

Now bolster props up awful PvE players, because BW took it too far. I can see they wanted to draw players into the PvP pool, but they did it by trying to appeal to PvE casual players, rather than fixing the many, many PvP bugs that are driving people away.

 

I've had several business classes, and all of them state it's much harder to gain new customers than to retain current customers. Somehow BW has decided the cartel market has tipped that balance into milking new "gambling" customers; instead of supplying a legit and a solid product to their base.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Expertise gear was created, unequal, because of PvE'ers.

 

It's all their fault really.

 

That is the biggest load of Horse excrement as I have ever heard. Blaming PvE players as if PvPers have been the perfect little angels and can do no wrong. Get over yourself. Truthfully? You really need to step away from the game and take a very long break from play any time of organized MMO game. Maybe you should play Duke Nukem for a while or something of the like.

[Ghost_Spectre]

I've never had full comms saved when I hit 50/55 with a new character and gearing was still very very fast for the basic tier. After just a few pieces in augmented shells, you quickly start close the gap. Honestly, even full recruit wasn't that bad if you play smart.

 

So your hypothetical PvE'r wants PvP gear, but doesn't want to put any time into acquiring it. Explain to me again how this is not PvE welfare?

 

There you go again with that falsehood using yourself as the benchmark. You are a PvP centric player. Therefore your comparison fails to validate your points when you use it in an argument for PvE centric players.

 

BTW, I'm a PvE centric player that loves to PvP, I've been that way in every MMO I've played. A large number of my guild mates are the same. All of us spend the necessary time to gear up in PvE and PvP. I have four level 55 toons and of those, 3 of them are Valor level 65 or higher. So tell me again how I don't want to put any time in to acquiring my gear? I guess the fact that I'm missing my Conqueror main and off hand for my Sage and 4 pieces for my Sorcerer (Relics, MH, & OH) qualify as "not putting in any time for acquiring it?" I haven't worked on my Jugg Tank yet because I'm spending time on my Sage & Sorcerer.

 

Your argument of "PvE Welfare" is a straw man argument. It holds not water. You have to quantifiable data to support your case. The truth of the matter is you are pissed off that people don't have to "gear" up to face you in PvP now. Probably because some PvE player wearing fully augmented Arkanian gear laid the smack-down and embarrassed the living crap out of you. This ultimately blew up your belief that you are a superior PvP player with l33t professional skillz and that has shattered your world damaged your epeen. I truly believe that is the case.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Yes, this is what this whole mess is truly about, isn't it? Pride. *chuckle*

 

<snip>

 

Bolster has done nothing but good for everyone all around, and it does exactly what it was intended to.

 

The only people that can't seem to tolerate it, is the people who can't stand some people can craft gear (through millions of credits and a long long time spent during level up), or others can get their gear through raids and operation (which needs to be played out for a long long time) .. and those gear are as much powerful as their own in PvP (which also takes time to grind).

 

It's not even an essential, combat related issue... it's a pride related issue. Now that's pathetic.

 

Again sir, you are hard locked on target. I commend you.

[Darkshadz]

I've never had full comms saved when I hit 50/55 with a new character and gearing was still very very fast for the basic tier. After just a few pieces in augmented shells, you quickly start close the gap. Honestly, even full recruit wasn't that bad if you play smart.

 

So your hypothetical PvE'r wants PvP gear, but doesn't want to put any time into acquiring it. Explain to me again how this is not PvE welfare?

 

How was I supposed to play smart as a melee DPS (jedi guardian, easy target for dem WH snipers in the back) in recruit gear? Do you really want to go back to 80% gear gap between recruit gear and augmented WH gear? I don't. BW didn't implement the bolster because of PVErs. If you can find where the devs said that, feel free to go.

 

As for crafted gear being better than partisan gear, how much better if it's the case? And at what cost?

[KamujinKravshera]

Your argument of "PvE Welfare" is a straw man argument. It holds not water. You have to quantifiable data to support your case. The truth of the matter is you are pissed off that people don't have to "gear" up to face you in PvP now. Probably because some PvE player wearing fully augmented Arkanian gear laid the smack-down and embarrassed the living crap out of you. This ultimately blew up your belief that you are a superior PvP player with l33t professional skillz and that has shattered your world damaged your epeen. I truly believe that is the case.

 

I've been very consistent in explaining that I am actually pissed off because bolster, a feature that caters to PvE'rs, came at the expense of real needed pvp improvements.

 

I've also asked several times for someone to point out a meaningful PvP feature in Patch 2.0. Obviously, as there are none, you revert to your straw man argument about the gear gap. Something that is really unimportant to me.

 

But please do keep pretending you're keeping up with the conversation.

Edited July 19, 2013 by KamujinKravshera

[DariusCalera]

Your argument of "PvE Welfare" is a straw man argument. It holds not water. You have to quantifiable data to support your case. The truth of the matter is you are pissed off that people don't have to "gear" up to face you in PvP now. Probably because some PvE player wearing fully augmented Arkanian gear laid the smack-down and embarrassed the living crap out of you. This ultimately blew up your belief that you are a superior PvP player with l33t professional skillz and that has shattered your world damaged your epeen. I truly believe that is the case.

 

The developers stated reason for introducing Bolster was because players would either sell their Recruit gear or simply not wear it and wear PvE gear instead.

 

As such, the quantifiable data that you are asking for is the developers own stated reasons for implementing it.

[Technohic]

Seems there are a couple of extremes in every thread, and this is no different. Those who think bolster was a terrible idea in all cases, which it wasn't. It just was poorly implemented. Then those who ignore the issues and how poorly it was implemented. PvEers wanting PvP to be their mini side game. No point discussing with either side; really. Generally, the argument turns into how the other side is bad at the game.

[L-RANDLE]

How was I supposed to play smart as a melee DPS (jedi guardian, easy target for dem WH snipers in the back) in recruit gear? Do you really want to go back to 80% gear gap between recruit gear and augmented WH gear? I don't. BW didn't implement the bolster because of PVErs. If you can find where the devs said that, feel free to go.

 

As for crafted gear being better than partisan gear, how much better if it's the case? And at what cost?

 

That's an exaggeration... The gap between recruit and WH was nowhere near 80%. It was around 20%; and was only that high because people refused to augment it. And BW most certainly did it for PvE players because the overwhelming majority of PvP had little to zero problems with the system. All signs points to the people who somehow thought the system was unfair, when it was already stupid ezmode gearing, and class balance issue were the primary cause of most PvP imbalances. Its hand holding, no matter how you slice it....

 

PS. I haven't bothered replacing my crafted purple implants and ear.. I have maxed my ranked comms. I craft on 5 toons, the cost is nominal..

[cycao]

Seems there are a couple of extremes in every thread, and this is no different. Those who think bolster was a terrible idea in all cases, which it wasn't. It just was poorly implemented. Then those who ignore the issues and how poorly it was implemented. PvEers wanting PvP to be their mini side game. No point discussing with either side; really. Generally, the argument turns into how the other side is bad at the game.

 

This right here.

 

Bolster is a great idea. How they designed and implemented it was an insult to that idea.

[Mertaal]

Because our self entitled pros always thought that they were being carried by skill. Then bolster came and suddenly, they had to realise that they were only being carried by gear. Now they want their illusion back.

 

QFT.

 

Gear should give a meaningful advantage, but not remove the skill element. The point of PvP from my perspective is to become a better gamer, not to get enough gear that I can lazily drive people in to the ground with no effort, and make them leave PvP in frustration.

 

When I first started PvPing I was pretty bad, but my results were entirely based on my performance. When I played badly I got hammered, and when I played better I did a bit better. In other words, Bolster allowed me to correlate my results with my performance.

Previously to that I had pretty much no chance without gear. "Just grind gear" some of you will say, and you have a point. However, it's in all our interests to keep as many people PvPing as possible, so I really think it's of great advantage to us all to allow new players a meaningful , performance based experience, and not a "u no haz gear I stamp on your face for a week till you do" experience.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Mertaal

[Jadescythe]

QFT.

 

Gear should give a meaningful advantage, but not remove the skill element. The point of PvP from my perspective is to become a better gamer, not to get enough gear that I can lazily drive people in to the ground with no effort, and make them leave PvP in frustration.

 

When I first started PvPing I was pretty bad, but my results were entirely based on my performance. When I played badly I got hammered, and when I played better I did a bit better. In other words, Bolster allowed me to correlate my results with my performance.

Previously to that I had pretty much no chance without gear. "Just grind gear" some of you will say, and you have a point. However, it's in all our interests to keep as many people PvPing as possible, so I really think it's of great advantage to us all to allow new players a meaningful , performance based experience, and not a "u no haz gear I stamp on your face for a week till you do" experience.

 

Are you even reading what people are posting? Are you arguing with the one person who wants uber gear to stomp people? Refer to Cycao and Technohic's posts above. Bolster is a fine idea, it just doesn't work the way it was intended.

[Mertaal]

Having read the whole thread, and not just what was added in the last 24 hours, I am well aware of what people are saying.

 

You may be happy with Bolster in princple (but not in execution) but, excluding you for a moment, many dissenting voices in this thread dislike the very concept and not just the execution as you imply. I was also quite clearly giving an example of bolster working.

 

So in other words, thanks for the flamebait, but I think my comment is relevant regardless of your opinion.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Mertaal

[Never_Hesitate]

Bolster is laughable at best. The gear gap still exists, and skilled players will always outplay geared players.

 

And that's what pvp should be all about.

Good people/teams beating people/teams who are not as good.

it's nice to see that they want to go there and not let a gear gap (it doesn't matter how fast you could close it) make some people just lambs to be slaughtered.

 

Now the people with more skill can really show it of in an a bit more competetive environment

[L-RANDLE]

Having read the whole thread, and not just what was added in the last 24 hours, I am well aware of what people are saying.

 

You may be happy with Bolster in princple (but not in execution) but, excluding you for a moment, many dissenting voices in this thread dislike the very concept and not just the execution as you imply. I was also quite clearly giving an example of bolster working.

 

So in other words, thanks for the flamebait, but I think my comment is relevant regardless of your opinion.

 

Its not the concept itself either. It's the reason the concept is even required. It was done to help old women across the street, but then the street turns into a firepit of despair, and you wonder did the old lady really need to cross the street.

[Jadescythe]

Having read the whole thread, and not just what was added in the last 24 hours, I am well aware of what people are saying.

 

You may be happy with Bolster in princple (but not in execution) but, excluding you for a moment, many dissenting voices in this thread dislike the very concept and not just the execution as you imply. I was also quite clearly giving an example of bolster working.

 

So in other words, thanks for the flamebait, but I think my comment is relevant regardless of your opinion.

 

Point me to one post in the last 5 pages that I just re-read where someone said that bolster is a bad concept. People have complained that PvE gear is on par or greater than some PvP gear, which BW even posted in the dev tracker was not intended. But no one has made the argument that giving players a baseline to start in PvP is bad. No one. So who are these imaginary people you are arguing with?

 

Almost everyone agrees that having bolster work as a sort of automatic recruit gear (with a smaller gap than before) is good. The only ones who don't support this are the ones who would prefer to have no gear gap at all.

[Darkshadz]

That's an exaggeration... The gap between recruit and WH was nowhere near 80%. It was around 20%; and was only that high because people refused to augment it. And BW most certainly did it for PvE players because the overwhelming majority of PvP had little to zero problems with the system. All signs points to the people who somehow thought the system was unfair, when it was already stupid ezmode gearing, and class balance issue were the primary cause of most PvP imbalances. Its hand holding, no matter how you slice it....

 

PS. I haven't bothered replacing my crafted purple implants and ear.. I have maxed my ranked comms. I craft on 5 toons, the cost is nominal..

 

Where do you take that 20%? BTW 20% is still a lot. A "majority" of PVPers didn't care about a huge gear gap? Oh really? You mean a small % of the 5% posting on SWTOR forums?

 

Keep believing what you want but I don't believe in those "hidden reasons" for implementing bolster like you do. Your hatred for PVErs cloud your judgment.

[L-RANDLE]

Where do you take that 20%? BTW 20% is still a lot. A "majority" of PVPers didn't care about a huge gear gap? Oh really? You mean a small % of the 5% posting on SWTOR forums?

 

Keep believing what you want but I don't believe in those "hidden reasons" for implementing bolster like you do. Your hatred for PVErs cloud your judgment.

 

Did you actually compare recruit gear to WH? The EXP delta was only 5%, where does the other 75% come from?

 

This is exactly why people need hand holding.

 

I don't hate pve players, but denial that they are the reason for this is absurd. No PvP players worth their salt had an issue gearing in the old system, if they were not the problem who had the problem?

 

 

And FYI, I was a member of the one of the top raid guilds on a pve server. I've done plenty of PvE so you can shove that hate garbage where the sun don't shines....

[Darkshadz]

Did you actually compare recruit gear to WH? The EXP delta was only 5%, where does the other 75% come from?

 

This is exactly why people need hand holding.

 

I don't hate pve players, but denial that they are the reason for this is absurd. No PvP players worth their salt had an issue gearing in the old system, if they were not the problem who had the problem?

 

 

And FYI, I was a member of the one of the top raid guilds on a pve server. I've done plenty of PvE so you can shove that hate garbage where the sun don't shines....

 

You didn't provide any valid reason why the bolster was made for PVErs. This is a PVP thread, stop speaking about them. Those who benefit from a more fair system are real PVPers. You pretend to be a PVPer but your posts prove otherwise. The big issue with pre-2.0 PVP was the huge gear gap. I never mentioned anything about acquiring the PVP gear so why are you talking about it to me?

 

oh yea and the gear gap really was 80%. Prove me wrong.

[Doomsdaycomes]

You didn't provide any valid reason why the bolster was made for PVErs. This is a PVP thread, stop speaking about them. Those who benefit from a more fair system are real PVPers. You pretend to be a PVPer but your posts prove otherwise. The big issue with pre-2.0 PVP was the huge gear gap. I never mentioned anything about acquiring the PVP gear so why are you talking about it to me?

 

oh yea and the gear gap really was 80%. Prove me wrong.

 

*Rolls eyes* Another person fails at "Burden of Proof"

 

You make a claim, then you back it up. You don't make a claim, then tell people to prove it isn't true.

 

 

However, if you think bolster isn't about PvE gear, you're mistaken. Bolster was suppose to do what MK-2 recruit did, without relying on players to physically put recruit on. Sad times, but more and more Dev's have to build systems that assume the player base is stupid simply because...

 

Most of it is.

[DariusCalera]

You didn't provide any valid reason why the bolster was made for PVErs. This is a PVP thread, stop speaking about them. Those who benefit from a more fair system are real PVPers. You pretend to be a PVPer but your posts prove otherwise. The big issue with pre-2.0 PVP was the huge gear gap. I never mentioned anything about acquiring the PVP gear so why are you talking about it to me?

 

oh yea and the gear gap really was 80%. Prove me wrong.

 

BW's stated reason for Bolster was because players weren't wearing the recruit gear. It was either because they sold the gear for a quick 250k or the simply did not wear it because they, mistakenly, believed that the PvE gear was better. It wasn't until a player started to acquire BH and Campaign gear did it start to pull ahead of the Recruit gear for PvP. Even then it was inferior to the Battle Master and WH

 

The gear gap that existed was the result of the previously mentioned players that went into PvP with PvE gear on.

 

Prior to 2.0 when the PvP gear sets went Recruit MK2, WH, and then EWH, the gear gap between the stock version of these sets was relatively small and a player could go from the Recruit to full WH in less than a week.

 

However, players still did not wear the Recruit gear and were routinely melted by those in actual PvP gear.

 

Bolster was added so that those in PvE gear, i.e. PvErs, who could not seem to figure out that wearing PvP gear was better for PvP than PvE gear was would not get melted.

[Darkshadz]

*Rolls eyes* Another person fails at "Burden of Proof"

 

You make a claim, then you back it up. You don't make a claim, then tell people to prove it isn't true.

 

 

However, if you think bolster isn't about PvE gear, you're mistaken. Bolster was suppose to do what MK-2 recruit did, without relying on players to physically put recruit on. Sad times, but more and more Dev's have to build systems that assume the player base is stupid simply because...

 

Most of it is.

 

Thanks for asking

 

Also, in 2.0 the gear gap has been closed significantly. In pre-2.0 the gap was roughly (very roughly!) 80% difference between Recruit and fully augmented Elite War Hero gear. Closing this gap means that PvP battles will be on a more equal footing but you might be experiencing damage and heal numbers you hadn’t seen before the patch.

 

Feel free to see the whole post if you want. Did Eric Musco exaggerate? No idea. BTW I saw no dev posts speaking about bolster being in-game because of players not wearing the recruit set. If you can find the exact post, good for you! I'm waiting for it.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Thanks for asking

 

 

 

Feel free to see the whole post if you want. Did Eric Musco exaggerate? No idea. BTW I saw no dev posts speaking about bolster being in-game because of players not wearing the recruit set. If you can find the exact post, good for you! I'm waiting for it.

 

Nah, I can admit when I've been corrected. If others care to find the Dev post you like, I'll leave it to them.

 

It does brings a tear of joy to my eye when someone actually fulfills their burden of proof (at least some what) though.

[DariusCalera]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6256136#post6256136

 

Here is the post about why Bolster was added.

 

The second paragraph is the one that refers to players either selling, or not wearing, the recruit gear.

[Draekos]

PS. I haven't bothered replacing my crafted purple implants and ear.. I have maxed my ranked comms. I craft on 5 toons, the cost is nominal..

 

You are gimping yourself in the crafted purple implants and earpieces. Even partisan is a notable improvement over the crafted stuff for the past 2 weeks now.