Pay to Win

[Propane]

SWTOR isn't alone in that type of model either, there's quite a few of them that do that.

Name one in the next min without using Google for once.

[BUBBUH]

Of course they are non-existant, because you have to pay $60 to play the game.

 

 

 

Or you just pay a sub like any other game with a subscription and avoid being teased. I've played subscription MMORPGs for a decade, I'm used to it.

SWTOR isn't alone in that type of model either, there's quite a few of them that do that.

 

Decade is 10 years long, you can't be 13 and get away with calling that out. And you would blow 15$ for a Wow ripoff? Sorry for questioning your decade long experience in mmos, but i'll tell you your wasting money on a sinking ship.

[hadoken]

The story quests in SWTOR cannot keep a player going, it boils down to the decisions you make only changing 1-2 lines of text. If people wanted to play a single player story line, they can go play KOTOR. But people came here to play a Bioware Star Wars MMO. But with the free to play restrictions - they are down to having to demo the MMO parts of the game, as in PVP, Raids, Flashpoints, ect.

 

Why should free players get everything that sub players get? I don't understand your point here, you want EA to just give the game away?

[Propane]

Why should free players get everything that sub players get? I don't understand your point here, you want EA to just give the game away?

 

The point is, why is SWTOR so special in this "Free to Play" model? Why don't all the Pay to Win MMOs that went free use this exact same model? The answer is because EA wants to squeeze every last bit of money they can out of you.

[BUBBUH]

We were talking about GW2, not SWTOR. Stay with the topic changes if you're trying to contribute.

 

this mmo im playing has a cool looking armor.

 

Better keep up with my topic changes.

[chuixupu]

And here you go again trying to deny the truth. The game is thought to cost a 500-600 million budget. Tell me where that all went to, seeing how maintaining a servers cost only around 300k every 2 years.

 

$80 million.

 

http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-has-cost-ea-80-million-analyst-6312400

http://www.killerguides.com/blog/games/swtor/swtor-ea-invests-80-million-committed-to-winning-product

 

The majority of the budget goes to paying employees. At their peak they had almost 700. That's a lot of paychecks over a 5 year development cycle.

[BUBBUH]

Kids, go play a game you have fun playing. I know you're too young to understand that people enjoy different things from you and your opinion isn't shared by other people, but maybe in another 10 years or so you'll figure that out and this will all make more sense.

 

You can enjoy throwing 15$ a month into the wind for a star wars skin and bad gameplay, i'll use mine more wisely.

[Propane]

$80 million.

 

http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-has-cost-ea-80-million-analyst-6312400

http://www.killerguides.com/blog/games/swtor/swtor-ea-invests-80-million-committed-to-winning-product

 

The majority of the budget goes to paying employees. At their peak they had almost 700. That's a lot of paychecks over a 5 year development cycle.

 

" Wedbush's Michael Pachter believes"

 

And come on the gamespot website? That is the last place you want to look.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Propane

[BUBBUH]

$80 million.

 

http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-has-cost-ea-80-million-analyst-6312400

http://www.killerguides.com/blog/games/swtor/swtor-ea-invests-80-million-committed-to-winning-product

 

The majority of the budget goes to paying employees. At their peak they had almost 700. That's a lot of paychecks over a 5 year development cycle.

 

http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-cost-200-million-to-develop-6348959

 

Looks like that 80 million magically grew to 200, same gamespot website you used too.

 

Edit: Even Forbes called it between 200-300 million.

Edited August 1, 2013 by BUBBUH

[Propane]

Since we are posting web based comments as proof, lets look at opinions out of the swtor forum:

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/30/bioware-force-tweaks-swtors-f2p-restrictions/

"Nope they still have no understanding of what makes a good F2P game."

 

"What BioWare seems to willingly ignore is that there are F2P MMOs out there that are very popular and quite good, so very few people will want to play a crappier version of this already mediocre MMO instead."

 

"If you make the free version ****, they’re not going to convert, it’s not like it’s Scientology."

 

http://www.gamefront.com/swtors-free-to-play-pros-cons-and-wtfs/

 

"I tried to go back to the game when it went f2p but after all of 10mins i quit again"

 

"current implementation feels like a slap in the face to anyone who had subscribed at some point in time."

 

"EA and most companies seem to think people are stupid or can blind side them"

 

http://biobreak.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/poll-where-do-you-stand-on-swtors-f2p-switch/

 

"Game offered nothing new, had WAY too many old design flaws."

 

"Preferred Status is a joke! There are restrictions everywhere! I cant even hide my helm unless i pay 350CC. I wont be playing, not unless Bioware rethinks there strategy. This is the WORSE F2P model i have seen yet!"

 

"model they are using punishes players"

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.394022-Swtor-breaks-the-deadly-sins-of-Free2Play

 

"I've ever seen such blatant money-grubbing in all the games I've tried. 720 Cartel Coins (read: over five bucks) just for colour synchronization and helmet removal for my playable characters? Repeat that for my AI companions? And goodbye side toolbars? *********** hell! I don't even know if I want to play this any more!"

 

"PvP and raiding also locked behind the paywall?"

 

"it's just EA trying to loot every last bit of money before Tortanic finally sinks to the bottom of the dead WOW clone sea."

[chuixupu]

Name one in the next min without using Google for once.

 

LOTRO, STO, DCUO. They're all different, but have various restrictions you can either piece meal or pay a type of subscription. I've seen people argue each one is the worst or the best for different reasons. I'm not arguing SWTOR has the best model by any means; if you 've seen my posts on this forum over the past year, I'm clearly in a lot of disagreement with a lot of things they do.

 

Decade is 10 years long, you can't be 13 and get away with calling that out. And you would blow 15$ for a Wow ripoff? Sorry for questioning your decade long experience in mmos, but i'll tell you your wasting money on a sinking ship.

 

Haha, OK, I'll apologize for my "kids" comments, I guess I hit a nerve. Guys, I'm old. You can make fun of that if you like, at least it's accurate.

 

I'm not sure why you have a really hard time with the idea that I am having fun with the game. If the game is gone in a year, then I spent money on something I enjoyed with my friends for a short time. Do you like the band Porcupine Tree? I'm guessing you don't, and you probably wouldn't pay $30 to see them live and you'd be miserable if you did.

However, I'd pay $100 for good seats. This is what we call opinion. It's hard, I know.

 

You can enjoy throwing 15$ a month into the wind for a star wars skin and bad gameplay, i'll use mine more wisely.

 

And again, it's a matter of opinion. It would be unwise to spend my money on something based on another person. I'm not telling you that you should spend money on swtor. Nor should you tell others what they should enjoy.

Edited August 1, 2013 by chuixupu

[Propane]

What did that teach us? Most of the posts on this forum are too biased.

[Propane]

LOTRO, STO, DCUO.

 

Go compare the "restrictions" those games have to the ones swtor have. All of those combined have the amount of restrictions 1/4 of swtor.

[chuixupu]

What did that teach us? Most of the posts on this forum are too biased.

 

You mean all of them.

 

Go compare the "restrictions" those games have to the ones swtor have. All of those combined have the amount of restrictions 1/4 of swtor.

 

See the rest of my post following that statement.

[BUBBUH]

 

I'm not sure why you have a really hard time with the idea that I am having fun with the game. If the game is gone in a year, then I spent money on something I enjoyed with my friends for a short time. Do you like the band Porcupine Tree? I'm guessing you don't, and you probably wouldn't pay $30 to see them live and you'd be miserable if you did.

However, I'd pay $100 for good seats. This is what we call opinion. It's hard, I know.

 

Its kind of funny your brought bands into this, but it'll work with what i'm about to say. I paid 250$ up front to see Slash at house of blues, i'd rather see that than some porcupine boy band. You can have the opinion that porcupines are better, but it's just an opinion, it rings hollow. Stats never lie and stats always talk.

 

I'll just leave it at this, before this turns into the philosophy of an opinion etc. You enjoy SWTOR, i'll enjoy GW2, Let's just agree to disagree.

[chuixupu]

Its kind of funny your brought bands into this, but it'll work with what i'm about to say. I paid 250$ up front to see Slash at house of blues, i'd rather see that than some porcupine boy band. You can have the opinion that porcupines are better, but it's just an opinion, it rings hollow.

 

That's exactly the point I'm making. It's all a matter of opinion. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't assume to say *I* should spend the money to see Slash just because you did. Although it's funny that you think Porcupine Tree is a "boy band". They're a progressive rock band that have been around since 1987. Alas, on hiatus, anyway.

 

PS - I wouldn't really argue they're "better". Slash is a good guitarist and I can respect a musician's skill apart from whether I like the style or not; I'm really not familiar with his solo work, but it's probably akin to comparing apples and oranges. Prog rock is kind of a niche market.

 

Stats never lie and stats always talk.

 

87.9% of stats are made up on the spot

 

I'll just leave it at this, before this turns into the philosophy of an opinion etc. You enjoy SWTOR, i'll enjoy GW2, Let's just agree to disagree.

 

Hey, that was the best and most productive discussion in this thread so far.

I'm fine with that. And I don't hate GW2, it's just not the game I want to spend a lot of time playing. If Wildstar ends up being really good, maybe I'll jump the swtor ship for that.

Edited August 1, 2013 by chuixupu

[Grayseven]

It doesn't encourage them, it forces them to pay if they actually want to experience the actual game.

 

You don't really have to worry about the F2Pers because you are subbed. Don't speak on their behalf.

 

Now if they could post on the swtor website, this forum would have a complete different feeling. Everyone here is subbed and they don't really care what free players do.

 

You are absolutely right. I do not care about the opinions of people playing for free, because their opinion doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because they aren't paying to play the game. To experience the game as intended from the beginning they should have to pay...just like the rest of us subs. If they aren't invested enough to drop 15 bucks a month for unfettered access to a game, they don't need a voice. Their very transient nature means their opinions are probably not worth squat.

 

As far as I'm concerned, F2P players are parasites similar to people who game welfare to avoid getting jobs. Some of them want everything for nothing and they want to do it on the backs of people who pay their own way.

 

They want a voice? They can drop 15 bucks for a one month sub and come into the forums and blast away. Otherwise, they can remain silent and enjoy their no-cost game play while those of us with a vested interest in how the game grows and develops continue to enjoy ourselves fully at the mere pittance of 15 bucks a month.

 

You're sub'd and you seem to think you can speak for the F2Per's so don't act all high and mighty as if your voice yelling to give them something for nothing is more important. I'll speak my mind on a subject I've seen actually destroying MMO's instead of improving them. F2P benefits no one but transient players who can't commit to a single game but somehow expect to get it all for free.

 

F2P is the last ditch gasp of air corporations make in order to save an MMO from drowning. It may seem like it does some good but unless an MMO fixes the problems that forced the F2P decision the MMO is doomed as the F2P crowd moves on to wherever they feel the grass is greener and the subscribers leave because they see no reason to continue to support a game that still has the same problems that plagued it before.

 

The only game that did F2P somewhat well is actually GW and GW2, but the initial idea of making the game free but charging for content updates every 6 months has moved into the true realm of P2W, unlike SWTOR which started as a sub model and added F2P and the CM in order to try to save the drowning man...so to speak. Their entire business model for the F2P transition revolved around giving limited access to F2P to everything but the actual leveling process and cap and allowing a la carte purchases via the CM in order to let F2Per's experience the full game on a limited basis to actually encourage subscription. Of course, the CM also started adding fluff to entice the subscribers to drop more cash above and beyond the sub fee and where I feel EA/BW went wrong was an excessive focus on the CM fluff to the detriment of the in-game fluff and actual content.

 

In summary, SWTOR was and still is a P2P game that has a F2P teaser that exists to let people experience the game without a financial investment but which encourages subscription. However, until SWTOR fixes those problems that initially drove away subscribers and required the F2P addition, no amount of free play will encourage players to invest financially in the game. As we move to 2.3 and beyond (and hopefully to the SSSP and some point...dear deity of choice, let it be soon) we will see if the changes are for the better or are just more of the same.

 

Even die hard subscribers have only a limited amount of patience and goodwill to give.

[BUBBUH]

You are absolutely right. I do not care about the opinions of people playing for free, because their opinion doesn't matter..

 

This essay made me face palm quite a bit. But a good laugh too, you think the game has a future, that one got me.

 

How was refuting my GW2 diagrams that i broke down for you going? That earlier proves you know very little about mmos and how they survive. But then again, i wouldn't expect much from a kid who enjoys cutting out F2P.

 

Paragraphs are your friend.

[AlexDougherty]

You are absolutely right. I do not care about the opinions of people playing for free, because their opinion doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because they aren't paying to play the game. To experience the game as intended from the beginning they should have to pay...just like the rest of us subs. If they aren't invested enough to drop 15 bucks a month for unfettered access to a game, they don't need a voice. Their very transient nature means their opinions are probably not worth squat.

 

As far as I'm concerned, F2P players are parasites similar to people who game welfare to avoid getting jobs. Some of them want everything for nothing and they want to do it on the backs of people who pay their own way.

 

They want a voice? They can drop 15 bucks for a one month sub and come into the forums and blast away. Otherwise, they can remain silent and enjoy their no-cost game play while those of us with a vested interest in how the game grows and develops continue to enjoy ourselves fully at the mere pittance of 15 bucks a month.

 

You're sub'd and you seem to think you can speak for the F2Per's so don't act all high and mighty as if your voice yelling to give them something for nothing is more important. I'll speak my mind on a subject I've seen actually destroying MMO's instead of improving them. F2P benefits no one but transient players who can't commit to a single game but somehow expect to get it all for free.

 

F2P is the last ditch gasp of air corporations make in order to save an MMO from drowning. It may seem like it does some good but unless an MMO fixes the problems that forced the F2P decision the MMO is doomed as the F2P crowd moves on to wherever they feel the grass is greener and the subscribers leave because they see no reason to continue to support a game that still has the same problems that plagued it before.

 

The only game that did F2P somewhat well is actually GW and GW2, but the initial idea of making the game free but charging for content updates every 6 months has moved into the true realm of P2W, unlike SWTOR which started as a sub model and added F2P and the CM in order to try to save the drowning man...so to speak. Their entire business model for the F2P transition revolved around giving limited access to F2P to everything but the actual leveling process and cap and allowing a la carte purchases via the CM in order to let F2Per's experience the full game on a limited basis to actually encourage subscription. Of course, the CM also started adding fluff to entice the subscribers to drop more cash above and beyond the sub fee and where I feel EA/BW went wrong was an excessive focus on the CM fluff to the detriment of the in-game fluff and actual content.

 

In summary, SWTOR was and still is a P2P game that has a F2P teaser that exists to let people experience the game without a financial investment but which encourages subscription. However, until SWTOR fixes those problems that initially drove away subscribers and required the F2P addition, no amount of free play will encourage players to invest financially in the game. As we move to 2.3 and beyond (and hopefully to the SSSP and some point...dear deity of choice, let it be soon) we will see if the changes are for the better or are just more of the same.

 

Even die hard subscribers have only a limited amount of patience and goodwill to give.

 

Please learn to summarise, this is far too long, especially for what could be summed up in three sentences (literally three sentences).

[Propane]

Please learn to summarise, this is far too long, especially for what could be summed up in three sentences (literally three sentences).

 

Here is HIS essay summarized: Pay to avoid not being able to play the game fully. If you haven't paid, you are trash and you should feel like trash.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Propane

[JPryde]

Here is HIS essay summarized: Pay to avoid not being able to play the game fully. If you haven't paid, you are trash and you should feel like trash.

If you do not pay anything at all, you are a leecher and should feel like a leecher. If you see leeches as the same as trash, so be it

[Grayseven]

This essay made me face palm quite a bit. But a good laugh too, you think the game has a future, that one got me.

 

How was refuting my GW2 diagrams that i broke down for you going? That earlier proves you know very little about mmos and how they survive. But then again, i wouldn't expect much from a kid who enjoys cutting out F2P.

 

Paragraphs are your friend.

 

I guarantee that I am in the upper 5% of the age spread of MMO players, so name calling instead of backing up your false assertions with real facts just shows me who the "kid" is here...

 

I've played and Beta'd MMO's since UO. I not only know how they work, but I've seen first hand how they live or die.

 

But keep on paying to play this game while slamming it and pretending that GW2 is the savior of MMO players everywhere. Your delusions are laughable.

 

Oh, and there are paragraphs and they are used properly...if you aren't seeing them, perhaps you should fix your browser.

 

Please learn to summarise, this is far too long, especially for what could be summed up in three sentences (literally three sentences).

 

That would be the last paragraph. You know, the one that starts with "In summary". I can't help you if you can't bother to spend the 2 minutes to read, and I'll not change my writing to suit the lazy.

 

Here is HIS essay summarized: Pay to avoid not being able to play the game fully. If you haven't paid, you are trash and you should feel like trash.

 

Not trash, a leech. I've met some very nice F2P players and have some in our guild. Quite often they become encouraged to subscribe which then boosts the possibilities the game gets fixed to a point where F2P becomes nothing more than a preview for people deciding whether or not to sub instead of a play style that does nothing for the game.

 

You got the "Pay to play the game fully" part right. After all you, you get what you pay for.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Grayseven

[MillionsKNives]

You guys realize that Propane and BUBBUH are trolling you, right?

[Grayseven]

You guys realize that Propane and BUBBUH are trolling you, right?

 

Doesn't matter. It's actually a good discussion to have because F2P is becoming more and more prevalent in MMO's and this games CM has become a larger focus than seems to be healthy for any MMO.

 

If we don't talk about it, the powers-that-be don't have any idea how we feel about it. I'll let them separate the trolls from the intelligent.

[OldRepJedi]

It's not Pay to Win. It is Pay to play the game as intended. F2P was an afterthought and in order to continue to earn money restrictions had to be put into place to encourage some actual spending by players regardless of whether or not they were F2P.

 

So F2P is actually Free to play some of the game but if you want the full experience you'll have to pay.

 

Of course, neither of those has the ADHD quality of F2P or P2W even if they are better descriptors of the realities of this (and other) online games.

 

You seem to think that the original game model is gone and that the "new" F2P model is now the standard. In truth, this game is a subscription MMO that offers a F2P version. So it is not a F2P game. It never was. It simply has a F2P version that has some pretty strict restrictions. As it should, since the F2P aren't doing anything to support the game and the company if they aren't spending money.

 

^This.