Karpyshyn's Surik vs Avellone's Exile.

[Beniboybling]

Both Bastilla and Revan faced resentment from the Jedi Council after the events of KoTOR 1. The Sith Empire (responsible for Jedi Civil War) descended in to a state of chaos and anarchy after the fall of Malak and this led to rise of Sith Triumvirate which almost devastated the Jedi Order, but Bastilla survived (she avoided confrontation with the Sith Triumvirate for the sake of her son). The novel reveals a meeting between Meetra and Bastilla after the fall of Sith Triumvirate and during this time, the Jedi Order doesn't exists; Bastilla managed to rebuild the Jedi Order actually.

No she didn't. The Jedi Order was rebuilt by some random Jedi who never actually existed i.e. a plot hole.

[LadyKulvax]

I have read the entire thread; I have chosen to address some points which are the basis of your assumption about Meetra being underpowered in Dromund Kaas. Your theory is poorly imagined and constructed unfortunately.

 

And every post of your's I have read in this section has been half-truths and assumption based on ambiguous canon, oh and let's not forget the countless times you've flat out ignored canon that discounts your arguments and literally called them out of dated, so that's all I really have to say about that, this thread is done and people whom use canon at a far more neutral playing field than you have, have already agreed throughout this thread.

 

You have either totally missed the points being made or outright dismissed them with non-contradictory statements and you clearly didn't spend much time with Lord Scourge in the game and have for some reason forgotten completely that Bastila raised her child and never took part in the Order's reconstruction.

Edited August 3, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

I have read the entire thread; I have chosen to address some points which are the basis of your assumption about Meetra being underpowered in Dromund Kaas. Your theory is poorly imagined and constructed unfortunately.

I fail to see any strong arguments here that dispute her theory.

 

 

• Meetra Surik was protected from the full force of Malachor V by the fact she was a wound in the Force. Essentially creating an 'aura' around her in which the dark side energies couldn't penetrate.
   
   
  
• This wound likely closed after the events of Malachor V, meaning she would be entirely exposed to the dark side nexus of Dromund Kaas and have no defense against its detrimental effects. Such effects being the limiting of the ability of one to use the light side of the Force.
   
   
  
• This means that when dueling Nyriss, she would not have been at full strength.
  

 

Your only argument against this is the bizarre assumption that some Jedi just aren't effected by dark side nexuses. This couldn't be further from the truth. All Jedi struggle to use the light side of the Force in the presence of a dark side nexus, because dark side nexuses have the effect of clouding one's connection to the Force. This can be said of all Force users who draw on the light, there are no exceptions.

 

An argument for why the HoT was not effected that can be made is that he was being assisted by the spirit of Orgus Din, which helped him overcome the Emperor's mental domination a short while prior.

[S_W_LeGenD]

No she didn't. The Jedi Order was rebuilt by some random Jedi who never actually existed i.e. a plot hole.

And you know this how? The role of Bastila cannot be ruled out since evidence of this have been offered in the storyline of Bersen'thor.

 

And every post of your's I have read in this section has been half-truths and assumption based on ambiguous canon, oh and let's not forget the countless times you've flat out ignored canon that discounts your arguments and literally called them out of dated, so that's all I really have to say about that, this thread is done and people whom use canon at a far more neutral playing field than you have, have already agreed throughout this thread.

You actually have no argument/answer for my responses in this thread and this is why you have chosen to paint my arguments as half-truths and vice versa. I think you need a wake-up call in regard to ground realities of TOR era lore, but that would be too much to expect from you.

 

You have either totally missed the points being made or outright dismissed them with non-contradictory statements and you clearly didn't spend much time with Lord Scourge in the game and have for some reason forgotten completely that Bastila raised her child and never took part in the Order's reconstruction.

I haven't missed a point of yours; I have read this entire thread. Their are loopholes in your theory as well.

 

Who told you that Bastilla didn't participate in reconstruction of the Jedi Order? She was part of the reconstructed Jedi Order actually. Their is evidence of this in the storyline of Bersen'thor (Bastila became a Jedi Master).

Edited August 3, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

And you know this how? The role of Bastila cannot be ruled out since evidence of this have been offered in the storyline of Bersen'thor.

Oh really? Well that doesn't help solve the problem that according to KOTOR II the Jedi Order was rebuilt by the Lost Jedi. Yet these Jedi would never have held any resentment towards Meetra Surik.

 

EDIT: Indeed Bastila's very existence is a plot hole. Meetra Surik was the last of the Jedi i.e. Bastila was dead.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Oh really? Well that doesn't help solve the problem that according to KOTOR II the Jedi Order was rebuilt by the Lost Jedi. Yet these Jedi would never have held any resentment towards Meetra Surik.

 

EDIT: Indeed Bastila's very existence is a plot hole. Meetra Surik was the last of the Jedi i.e. Bastila was dead.

 

Bastila was in KoToR II as was Carth Onasi, they both made short cameos

[S_W_LeGenD]

I fail to see any strong arguments here that dispute her theory.

You are expected to believe in her theories without adequately challenging them, mind you.

 

Meetra Surik was protected from the full force of Malachor V by the fact she was a wound in the Force. Essentially creating an 'aura' around her in which the dark side energies couldn't penetrate.

And I didn't dispute this assumption.

 

However, it is pointed out in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide that both Meetra and Kriea began to heal after they forged a bond between them. Mr. Karpyshyn certainly did his homework.

 

This wound likely closed after the events of Malachor V, meaning she would be entirely exposed to the dark side nexus of Dromund Kaas and have no defense against its detrimental effects. Such effects being the limiting of the ability of one to use the light side of the Force.

And I have pointed out this fact:

 

When she arrived on Dromund Kaas, she could sense Revan's presence on this planet with her Force abilities. In addition, the cave based incident reveals that her precognitive abilities were working as well on this planet.

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan novel reveals that she found it difficult to experience tranquility on Dromund Kaas but nothing much worse.

 

This means that when dueling Nyriss, she would not have been at full strength.

But she had help of Scourge; the "duo" still lost.

 

Your only argument against this is the bizarre assumption that some Jedi just aren't effected by dark side nexuses. This couldn't be further from the truth. All Jedi struggle to use the light side of the Force in the presence of a dark side nexus, because dark side nexuses have the effect of clouding one's connection to the Force. This can be said of all Force users who draw on the light, there are no exceptions.

Dromund Kaas on the whole is strong in the dark side but only some parts of it qualify as "nexus."

 

In addition, Force-users have varying level of tolerances; some are likely to experience more negative effects then others in an unfavorable setting.

 

An argument for why the HoT was not effected that can be made is that he was being assisted by the spirit of Orgus Din, which helped him overcome the Emperor's mental domination a short while prior.

Oh great! This keeps on getting better and better...

 

HoT had help from his droid as far as I am aware of it (or it could be a Strike Team by definition) but he had to contend with Force powers of the Sith Emperor (Vitiate) and he wouldn't have survived if he was not been able to properly call upon the Force to aid his actions.

 

Sure, Sith Emperor (Vitiate) himself was in weakened condition during this fight but it would be wrong to assume that his powers would be totally ineffective in such a condition.

 

Oh really? Well that doesn't help solve the problem that according to KOTOR II the Jedi Order was rebuilt by the Lost Jedi. Yet these Jedi would never have held any resentment towards Meetra Surik.

 

EDIT: Indeed Bastila's very existence is a plot hole. Meetra Surik was the last of the Jedi i.e. Bastila was dead.

KoTOR II revealed that Bastila was alive during the time of Sith Triumvirate (she was in hiding). The novel built upon this fact.

 

As I pointed out before, Mr. Karpyshyn did some homework before he expanded on Revan's story in a novel. In-fact, the entire SWTOR project is based on plot expansion of revelations in KoTOR II game.

Edited August 3, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[LadyKulvax]

LeGenD you are NOT turning my thread into another one of your wall of text filled inane debates where the only victor can possibly be you.

 

You can bait me all you like but you are NOT bombarding my thread with your 'arguments' simply stop posting in my thread, I am not having it turn into another one of your circular debates, please cease and desist.

Edited August 3, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Bastila was in KoToR II as was Carth Onasi, they both made short cameos

I'm aware that Bastila made a short appearance in the dark side version of KOTOR II - but only a a holorecording... pretty sure she never made a physical appearance in either ls or ds...

[tunewalker]

I'm aware that Bastila made a short appearance in the dark side version of KOTOR II - but only a a holorecording... pretty sure she never made a physical appearance in either ls or ds...

 

:58 on she talks with carth in person if you have revan set to light.

[S_W_LeGenD]

LeGenD you are NOT turning my thread into another one of your wall of text filled inane debates where the only victor can possibly be you.

 

You can bait me all you like but you are NOT bombarding my thread with your 'arguments' simply stop posting in my thread, I am not having it turn into another one of your circular debates, please cease and desist.

I have the right to participate in any discussion in this forum; I granted you full freedom in sharing your input in my threads. I expect the same level of respect from you towards me in your threads.

 

If you are wrong about something; I will point it out, whether you like this practice or not.

[LadyKulvax]

I have the right to participate in any discussion in this forum; I granted you full freedom in sharing your input in my threads. I expect the same level of respect from you towards me in your threads.

 

If you are wrong about something; I will point it out, whether you like this practice or not.

 

But your arguments are NOT arguments it is simply: 'agree with my posts or i will keep spamming them with minor changes until you give in.' I have seen your 'arguments' before.

 

I will flag and report you for spamming if you continue.

 

I have asked you once already politely to stop, you are ignoring it.

[Beniboybling]

LeGenD you are NOT turning my thread into another one of your wall of text filled inane debates where the only victor can possibly be you.

 

You can bait me all you like but you are NOT bombarding my thread with your 'arguments' simply stop posting in my thread, I am not having it turn into another one of your circular debates, please cease and desist.

Agreed, he'll probably throw a tantrum, but I think we can handle it.

[S_W_LeGenD]

But your arguments are NOT arguments it is simply: 'agree with my posts or i will keep spamming them with minor changes until you give in.' I have seen your 'arguments' before.

 

I will flag and report you for spamming if you continue.

 

I have asked you once already politely to stop, you are ignoring it.

So you don't want people to agree with you? Or you are above such judgment but only my views are to be suppressed and not accepted?

 

Go ahead, report.

[Beniboybling]

:58 on she talks with carth in person if you have revan set to light.

Hey its Bastila! Weird, I never saw that part where she meets Onasi. Nice outfit.

 

Sheesh, so she was just pottering about doing nothing while the galaxy was going to hell? Couldn't she have maybe helped the Exile out a bit? Or did she lose her lightsaber again?

 

Still, I can't see any reason why Bastila would Barbour a great deal of resentment towards the Exile. And it doesn't change the fact that it should have been her and the Lost Jedi, and Surik for that matter, who formed the new Council.

[tunewalker]

Agreed, he'll probably throw a tantrum, but I think we can handle it.

 

Edit: nvm

Edited August 3, 2013 by tunewalker

[S_W_LeGenD]

Hey its Bastila! Weird, I never saw that part where she meets Onasi. Nice outfit.

 

Sheesh, so she was just pottering about doing nothing while the galaxy was going to hell? Couldn't she have maybe helped the Exile out a bit? Or did she lose her lightsaber again?

 

Still, I can't see any reason why Bastila would Barbour a great deal of resentment towards the Exile. And it doesn't change the fact that it should have been her and the Lost Jedi, and Surik for that matter, who formed the new Council.

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan novel reveals that she chose to protect her unborn child.

Edited August 3, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[LadyKulvax]

So you don't want people to agree with you? Or you are above such judgment but only my views are to be suppressed and not accepted?

 

Go ahead, report.

 

Read this thread, I have spent many posts debating these same issues before, read it and you might realise everything you have commented on has already been settled, I am not going in circles with you about this when it has already been done in this very thread.

 

Oh and your arguments for Vitiate rivalling Sidious provided me with everything I required to make a solid judgement of your 'arguing' style.

 

Now good day for I have another thread to manage.

[tunewalker]

Hey its Bastila! Weird, I never saw that part where she meets Onasi. Nice outfit.

 

Sheesh, so she was just pottering about doing nothing while the galaxy was going to hell? Couldn't she have maybe helped the Exile out a bit? Or did she lose her lightsaber again?

 

Still, I can't see any reason why Bastila would Barbour a great deal of resentment towards the Exile. And it doesn't change the fact that it should have been her and the Lost Jedi, and Surik for that matter, who formed the new Council.

 

I do not know that she did have resentment of her at all, their may have been some context missed not sure but I like you do not know why she would resent her, but I do feel she likely didn't want to get involved as she probably felt it was something the exile had to do on her own, though I will say I think this happened BEFORE the 3 masters were killed by traya so..... she may have blamed the exile for that, not sure though been a while since I played Kotor 2 and unlocked this cut scene.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Read this thread, I have spent many posts debating these same issues before, read it and you might realise everything you have commented on has already been settled, I am not going in circles with you about this when it has already been done in this very thread.

So?

 

I have "relevant" sourcebooks under my disposal and this puts me in good position to address loopholes in your theories concerning TOR era characters and their stories.

 

Try to have constructive discussion with me, instead of turning your guns on me.

 

Your theory is that Meetra is heavily underpowered on Dromund Kaas; I have offered evidence to the contrary from a novel. She did found it difficult to experience tranquility on this planet at minimum. Also, against Nyriss, she had help from Scourge but the "duo" still lost.

 

Oh and your arguments for Vitiate rivalling Sidious provided me with everything I required to make a solid judgement of your 'arguing' style.

That is another discussion; also, neither me and nor you are in the position to decide that which of these characters is officially stronger.

Edited August 3, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Selenial]

Hey its Bastila! Weird, I never saw that part where she meets Onasi. Nice outfit.

 

Sheesh, so she was just pottering about doing nothing while the galaxy was going to hell? Couldn't she have maybe helped the Exile out a bit? Or did she lose her lightsaber again?

 

Still, I can't see any reason why Bastila would Barbour a great deal of resentment towards the Exile. And it doesn't change the fact that it should have been her and the Lost Jedi, and Surik for that matter, who formed the new Council.

 

A lot of the game comes from what you say Revan is at the start.

If its: Ds male: Holocron of Bastilla on Korriban

DS female: Holocron of Bastilla on korriban

LS Female: Recording of Carth hidden in T3's Databanks

LS Male: Recording of Bastilla in T3's data banks.

 

 

And agreed, LeGenD stay out of it, there's so much wrong with your post, I just don't have the time or the patience to tell you how.

[LadyKulvax]

Try to have constructive discussion instead of turning your guns on me.

 

Shall I quote your 'constructive discussions' that you have used to discount Caedus > Vitiate which were half just opinions and half quite literally just assumptions or better yet the numerous insults you have launched my way repeatedly or would you rather leave it as is before others realise your little game.

Edited August 3, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

Shall I quote your 'constructive discussions' that you have used to discount Caedus > Vitiate which were half just opinions and half quite literally just assumptions or better yet the numerous insults you have launched my way repeatedly or would you rather leave it as is before others realise your little game.

 

Maybe if we all just place him on ignore, he'll leave...

[S_W_LeGenD]

Shall I quote your 'arguments' that you have used to discount Caedus > Vitiate which were half just opinions and half quite literally just assumptions or better yet the numerous insults you have launched my way repeatedly or would you rather leave it as is before others realise your little game.

I still maintain that my arguments are valid in that discussion; certain feats of Tenebrae have been played down in that discussion by fellow member Beni (he is in your camp). Their is not a single point of mine in that discussion which does not have canonical basis. Also, certain talents of Caedus (e.g. foresight abilities) do not suggest that he is "stronger" then Tenebrae; not every talent is about strength. Tenebrae isn't going to be superior to Caedus in every aspect of the Force but he is more powerful. Regardless, this discussion also have nothing to do with this thread.

 

And agreed, LeGenD stay out of it, there's so much wrong with your post, I just don't have the time or the patience to tell you how.

Here comes another one...

Edited August 3, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Legend, here it is. We do not agree with your arguments, we have no interest in convincing you.

 

We shall therefore not respond. So you may as well stop bothering.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Beniboybling