KBN's Guide to Combat Spec (or: how to sentinel tank)

[Aldozer]

Has anybody looked at and tried the concepts that can be found HERE on dulfy.net? I find the guide very confusing and counter-intuitive after months of using KBN's system, particularily the following:

 

In the section that details the "15-20 second rotation", there seems to be a delay in between the 2 PS windows. It is scripted as:

 

Zen+TST+PS -- [MS -- BR -- BS] -- (ZS -- Str -- Caut) -- Disp+PS -- [bR -- BR -- BS]

 

I found 2 immediate problems with this. First of all, trying to fit [MS -- BR -- BS] into the first PS window (albeit under Zen) is playing with fire, and of course Zen won't be available everytime this comes up. Secondly, fitting 3 abilities (ZS -- Str -- Caut) between windows more often then not delays use the second PS proc. This then will ultimately misalign the windows as the fight goes on.

 

I do understand that the above example is indeed simply an example, and that the heart of the guide is a flexible priority system (detailed later in the guide), but the question remains: is that viable? Has anyone tried this?

 

Yeah better bs earlier

Edited August 18, 2014 by Aldozer

[jeremyofmany]

This guide will be obsolete as of 2.10, and will not be updated. Sorry. :-(

Hi KBN, I don't see how your entire guide will be obsolete as of 2.10. Sure, changes would be required, but you obviously put much time into the guide.

I would think it be only a matter of hours on a rainy day to parse on the Ops dummy to see how the 2.10 changes affect the rotations/timings stated in your guide.

I used your guide during a weekend I spent training myself to keybind instead of click. I remember PMing you about that and how I had around a 600 increase in my DPS by doing that. You've certainly helped me and others, so I would like to see your work continue.

 

 

Cheers,

Jeremy

[Mr_Fuzzle]

Hi KBN, I don't see how your entire guide will be obsolete as of 2.10. Sure, changes would be required, but you obviously put much time into the guide.

I would think it be only a matter of hours on a rainy day to parse on the Ops dummy to see how the 2.10 changes affect the rotations/timings stated in your guide.

I used your guide during a weekend I spent training myself to keybind instead of click. I remember PMing you about that and how I had around a 600 increase in my DPS by doing that. You've certainly helped me and others, so I would like to see your work continue.

 

 

Cheers,

Jeremy

 

I believe KBN is just disgusted with the simplistic changes to Combat Sentinels and doesn't want to be associated with the absurdly dumbed down direction that the spec is going. I don't blame him for disliking the changes, I personally hate them and think they're removing one of the most intricate specs from the game in order to cater to people who simply can't keep up with the way the spec was meant to play. The changes were ill thought out and make the spec far too predictable and boring to want to play using an analytical mindset. This has been a great guide and great source of discussion while it's been valid, but given the changes, playing the spec should be blatantly obvious in 2.10.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Hey KNJ, I know it probably won't make a difference, but I will still try to appeal to you: You've helped so many peoply with your Combat guide and I think many of them (including me :-) rely on your ability to analyze speccs, develop strategies and explain them in detail. I really do hope you can get over the nature of the changes enough so your work may help others. Everyone will surely accept and understand you decision if you refrain from updating the guide, given the amount of work you always put into doing them. But I think a lot of people would really appreciate if you could find the motivation and energy to do it - even if it was a less detailed guide than people usually see from you.

 

Thx and best regards,

 

El'ethon

[Phatbeard]

I believe KBN is just disgusted with the simplistic changes to Combat Sentinels and doesn't want to be associated with the absurdly dumbed down direction that the spec is going. I don't blame him for disliking the changes, I personally hate them and think they're removing one of the most intricate specs from the game in order to cater to people who simply can't keep up with the way the spec was meant to play. The changes were ill thought out and make the spec far too predictable and boring to want to play using an analytical mindset. This has been a great guide and great source of discussion while it's been valid, but given the changes, playing the spec should be blatantly obvious in 2.10.

 

Yes, because spending a fight staring at one's personal buff bar to ID two tiny icons is the penultimate indicator of l33tness

[Kurkina]

Soooooo, I'm lost as of 2.10, can't seem to time anything.

 

Anyone have any ideas how the new rotation/priorities should look?

[Omniscientearl]

Soooooo, I'm lost as of 2.10, can't seem to time anything.

 

Anyone have any ideas how the new rotation/priorities should look?

 

Largely the same. We've lost the double PS windows, but now we have OA on demand and BS comes off CD 1.5 seconds before PS. That gives you about 5 seconds between windows to keep your Cauterize dot going while you make sure you have the right amount of focus and an OA proc for the next PS window.

[Kurkina]

That's a bit too simple, don't you think?

 

What is the opener?

 

What to use in the single PS window?

 

How to use dispatch? On appearance? Save it for next PS window when it pops in between?

 

How to use Master Strike?

[justinplainview]

After parsing for a few hours (literally like two), I'm hitting 4k with the new Carnage changes. I haven't figured out how to effectively transition into execute range, I haven't decided which global in the filler section to place rupture, I haven't decided if it's better to berserk on cooldown or hold for a gore window for a few globals, I don't even know if I have the optimal opener yet. I truly think this spec is capable of 4200.

 

Also, the Double Gore windows being RIP is a non issue. So what if I'm doing 6k openers instead of 8k+ with double gore, the DPS is still bursty as all hell and DEFINITELY easier to sustain. Also, Battering Assault lines up into the transition into gore windows FAR better than previous version of Carnage. YES, it is easier. YES, the previous version was more fun. But it still requires ~50 APM and it's still easy to mess up, funny enough. Once I get consistant 4100+ parses, I'll start posting rotations and will be more than willing to enter discussions with KBN or El'ethon or anybody else about the spec. I'd post a parse but I'm honestly 100% boycotting torparse until they get their **** together on a consistent basis. But here's a SS. Also, the 3995 was with a 14% crit on Massacre. 14%. That's trash.

 

http://i.gyazo.com/6602a94dc08ade69f13f68a7ce0281ba.png

[g_mK]

I played a little with combat yesterday, though I still need to do more than 2 parses.

Overall the basic rotation is much easier now, and though is not as complex as it was before I still enjoy it. Burst is still there (more than what it's actually needed for any content in this game). What is definitely better is the sustained, no longer is needed for the stars to align in order to get a good parse. However one can still ruin a good parse by doing the wrong stuff.

This is what I've found in regards of rotation:

• PS on CD, duh
  
• There is not excuse not to have a BS in every PS window
  
• Priority is BS>MS>dispatch>TST>BR
  
• Master strike every third PS window, there is nor reason to delay MS by more than one GCD
  
• Dispatch inside PS, however if you have to chose between MS or dispatch for you next PS window, chose MS
  
• If you didn't get to dispatch inside a PS window due to MS, you can save it for your next PS window (the ICD of HoJ is from the moment it procs not from the moment it's used so delaying dispatch doesn't cause any issues) unless the timer of the buff expires before your next PS window, then it's better to use it outside a PS window and to loose it.
  
• Blade rush has low priority inside a PS window, however is good to use it right before a PS window to increase the chances of ataru procs happening during PS.
  
• There are 4 GCDS between PS windows (more depending on zen) use the first ones to regenerate focus and blade rush right before your PS window.
  
• During the execute, try to dispatch on CD focus allowing
  
• Cauterize is still a good filler between PS windows since it does more damage than blade rush (also there is not need to fish for the OA proc)
  

Edited September 10, 2014 by g_mK

[Kurkina]

• There is not excuse not to have a BS in every PS window
  ...
  
• Master strike every third PS window, there is nor reason to delay MS by more than one GCD
  

 

So when Master Strike is inside the PS window and not under Zen, do you put it before or after Blade Storm?

 

If it's after Blade Storm, then the 3rd hit probably won't connect inside the PS window. But if it"s before Blade Storm (with Blade Storm clipping the channel), it then misaligns the matching cooldowns of Blade Storm and PS.

 

What to do?

[g_mK]

So when Master Strike is inside the PS window and not under Zen, do you put it before or after Blade Storm?

 

If it's after Blade Storm, then the 3rd hit probably won't connect inside the PS window. But if it"s before Blade Storm (with Blade Storm clipping the channel), it then misaligns the matching cooldowns of Blade Storm and PS.

 

What to do?

I first MS and then clip MS with Blade storm thus landing both inside a PS window. In reality BS doesn't have to be in the first GCD of the PS window so I usually put it in the second or third GCD, as long as you have a BS per PS window you are in good shape. Also remember that the CD of BS is 1.5 seconds shorter than PS.

[Kurkina]

In reality BS doesn't have to be in the first GCD of the PS window ...

That's it then, that was my mistake, tested this a little and my parses went up by 150-200 on this change alone.

 

Has anyone come up with with a good extended opener?

 

I've just been going with ZS - BR - [PS+Master - BS] etc. Not much to write home about, anyone have anything better?

[Ardarell_Solo]

I haven't gotten around to do any testing yet for work reasons, but out of the blue I'd think something like:

 

Leap

Zealous Strike

Blade Rush + Adrenal + Inspiration + Valorous Call + Zen + Precision Slash

Dispatch (if Proc, else: Double Saber Throw)

Master Strike (clipped)

Blade Storm

 

After PS see the priorities Don Quijote has listed above (thx for that!): Focus for second window / early Cauterize

 

Not sure about:

- If you do BS under Zen in that spot will it be ready for the end of the second window (I think it should be)

- If you go for the trick of trying to include the late hits of TST and Dispatch in PS windows by acticating them before PS but the hit landing inside (which for me and my limited Combat skill is pretty much a dumm only trick) the whole thing probably has to be designed differently...

 

@Don Quijote: Excited to hear what you found out! Will gladly try to contribute, though I'm probably not the best player to do so, since I'm much better at Watchman than at Combat. So I'm hoping the usual experts will join in here, too :-)

Edited September 11, 2014 by Ardarell_Solo

[g_mK]

I regards to opener I've tried two:

A - Force Leap>ZS>Zen-adrenal-inpiration>PS>BR>MS>BS

B - Force Leap>ZS>BR>Zen>adrenal>inspiration>PS>BS>MS>dispatch

 

I'm inclined to say that the second one is better though it delays everything by one GCD. It allows to do BS at the beginning of the PS window instead of the end thus hitting with both relics up. Also I would note that is important for inspiration to be activated right before the first PS window (and not earlier) so is still up during the second PS window.

 

In regards to the trick of doing TST or dispatch right before PS so that the late hit lands inside the PS window, I would say that is a dps loss. In the previous rotation of 2.0-2.9 you would do this in between windows, however for the second window PS was already off CD thus you could activate it right as you do dispatch (and doing everything right was still tricky enough); right now since there are no procs you actually have to either wait for PS to come off CD before activating dispatch/TST, which delays your PS windows, or Dispatch/TST in the last GCD before PS comes off CD but most likely landing outside the PS window since you have no control over the timing.

 

For BS and Zen screwing up the timing I don't see any issues since the CD of BS is 1.5 seconds shorter than PS.

 

One way to know if you are doing a proper roation is to take the TTK in seconds and divide it by 10.5, round down and that gives you how many PS windows and BS you should have done.

 

The rotation right now is much easier but still dependent on a high APM 49-50 and proper timing.

 

So far I've done 3820 on 1.5 mill dummy with a mix of DF/DM gear (more DF than DM).

 

Also a separate note, I like the new changes to watchman

Edited September 11, 2014 by g_mK

[justinplainview]

@Don- I use a variation of the second opener you listed at the moment. Seems to vibe a little better than what I had been attempting previously.

[justinplainview]

Finally trying 1.5 mill dummy, second parse was 3865, fourth was 3940. That's not terribly different than my best 1 mill dummy parse at 4012. I still don't prioritize execute range properly in new carnage, so there's much more improvement to be had. I think these changes are better than the critics give it credit for. It's still fun, the APM is still absurdly high. The only appreciable difference is lack of double gore. You're not playing a harder spec fishing for procs, you're just playing a spec more dependent on your buff bar. That's it. It is stupidly easy to auto crit your force screams, but I suppose something had to give in a spec that's been too RNG dependent since 2.0. I can't blame KBN for ceasing to update this thread, because it's a COMPLETE rework of the spec... but maybe the Carnage/Combat mara/sents of the community can come together and optimize the new rotation, etc.

[winkingskeever]

How is everyone handling dispatch usage during the execute phase? I've personally been just using it off cooldown when I can.

[justinplainview]

How is everyone handling dispatch usage during the execute phase? I've personally been just using it off cooldown when I can.

 

same. I try to get it at least once out of a gore window and once in every gore window in execute range

[Ardarell_Solo]

Found time for 5 trys last night, here's what I'd say from those:

 

- Opener B was the best for me as well

- I think Master Strike outside PS seems like a DPS loss. Probably since it's hard to do Cauterize, Focus building and Blade Rush in between PS windows anyway, let alone Dispatch Sub 30 as well.

- I think Zen should be used on CD, except it's available 1 or 2 GCDs prior to next PS, then delay, but not longer.

- Pre-PS-Dispatch landing inside PS makes sense Sub 30%, when you have to squeeze in that extra ability between PS.

 

Thoughts?

 

Has to be taken with a grain of salt, as my best try on 1 Mio Dummy was just 3860, which seems kinda low compared to Pumpy, given I'm BIS except for mainhand hilt and the three additional power/surge enhancements that I don't need in Watchman spec...

Edited September 12, 2014 by Ardarell_Solo

[g_mK]

Master strike outside PS is a dps loss since hits harder than anything else but BS, is free of cost and if you do it outside PS, then generating enough focus and getting OA for your next PS window in 2 GCD's is too much.

The only time a do pre PS dispatch is when I have to master strike and I know the buff will expire before the next PS window.

During the execute phase I try to dispatch on CD and prioritize it over cauterize outside PS. I did find myself sometimes doing Strike>dispatch>cauterize>strike outside PS and not getting OA buff. Thinking it over I should replace cauterize for blade rush unless ZS was available at the beginning.

A last note, if you are able to keep track of HoJ proc during the execute phase a better priority would be PS>dispatch>BS>filler, if you happen to proc HoJ then you can dispatch a second time after BS. otherwise TST>BR should be used.

[Ramtar]

Master strike outside PS is a dps loss since hits harder than anything else but BS, is free of cost and if you do it outside PS, then generating enough focus and getting OA for your next PS window in 2 GCD's is too much.

The only time a do pre PS dispatch is when I have to master strike and I know the buff will expire before the next PS window.

During the execute phase I try to dispatch on CD and prioritize it over cauterize outside PS. I did find myself sometimes doing Strike>dispatch>cauterize>strike outside PS and not getting OA buff. Thinking it over I should replace cauterize for blade rush unless ZS was available at the beginning.

A last note, if you are able to keep track of HoJ proc during the execute phase a better priority would be PS>dispatch>BS>filler, if you happen to proc HoJ then you can dispatch a second time after BS. otherwise TST>BR should be used.

 

People need to understand that you will take what the enemy will give you. In a prefect world PS > MS will happen 100% of the time, but in reality of PvP with stuns/knock backs/pulls/slows/mezzs/targets moving out of 4-10m range: you take PS > MS or any attack when it becomes available.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Ramtar

[Kurkina]

I regards to opener I've tried two:

A - Force Leap>ZS>Zen-adrenal-inpiration>PS>BR>MS>BS

B - Force Leap>ZS>BR>Zen>adrenal>inspiration>PS>BS>MS>dispatch

Thanks for that, been using your "A", will give "B" a try.

 

On a side note, can anybody share how they keybind Zen, Valorous, Adrenal and Inspiration so that one can hit all the keys without delaying the next attack? Sometimes I have trouble with Valorous not being available right after I hit Zen (lag?), so the order I press them in is Zen, Adrenal, Val, Insp. That said, I'm not very smooth with that and these presses often delay whatever is supposed to come after Zealous Strike.

 

So again, keybind suggestions would be appreciated.

[g_mK]

Thanks for that, been using your "A", will give "B" a try.

 

On a side note, can anybody share how they keybind Zen, Valorous, Adrenal and Inspiration so that one can hit all the keys without delaying the next attack? Sometimes I have trouble with Valorous not being available right after I hit Zen (lag?), so the order I press them in is Zen, Adrenal, Val, Insp. That said, I'm not very smooth with that and these presses often delay whatever is supposed to come after Zealous Strike.

 

So again, keybind suggestions would be appreciated.

 

I actually click them, one suggestion is to do it in reverse order and do Inspiration>Val>adrenal>zen.

Edited September 12, 2014 by g_mK

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I actually click them, one suggestion is to do it in reverse order and do Inspiration>Val>adrenal>zen.

 

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but zen now has a CD of 1.5sec. This was first noticed by a guildie of mine. From what I was able to find out zen activation is still off the GCD but you cannot activate zen more than once every GCD.

 

Zen has ALWAYS had a 1.5 sec CD... your a bit late to the party on that one... as for the new Combat changes, if i still had my 55 Mara, i would be pretty giddy, but i decided to reroll to a Sorc, then promptly made another mara to fill the void... (man i'm a moron...) Anyways, let me rant for a minute in all caps. BIOWARE YU REMOVE DOUBLE PSLASH?!? THAT KILLS ALL BURST WE HAD... All caps rant over.

 

But seriously. Bioware, what was the point in killing our burst for "better sustained" Double Pslash had no OP ness to it. It was pretty much the thing people would always shut down, so if anything can we get like stun immunity for 1.5s during Pslash so we can at minimum get Blade Storm or Dispatch off during Pslash? Is it too hard to do? is it "un-balanced"? because i dont see anyone whining about Vigilance getting 4 seconds of Stun Immunity after Force leap for their main burst (Master Strike, which i THINK hits harder than Blade Storm with Pslash)