Let's retire the Ninja cap

[Kerensk]

Or I should say the Ninja Cap ATTEMPTS.

 

Every single match the stealth player runs off on their own to the natural enemy node. And every time the 2 defenders kill them or they stand off to the side doing nothing, waiting for one of the defenders to leave or make a mistake.

 

And after they die what do they do? They try again, and again, and again. Even though the enemy is now very aware and defensive about stealth incursions.

 

Meanwhile we would love to have a extra man fighting at mid. Perhaps a skillful stealth player who can sneak around the melee and neutralize the OP healer in back that is causing the stalemate?

Or a good stealth defender on our natural node? I've seen a single stealth player tie up 3 opposing players almost indefinitely , mezing in stealth, and only popping out to interrupt once resolve fills. Even the most ignorant bads realize and redeploy in the time a decent stealth can tie up 2-3 players.

At the very least not even using stealth and having a 6th or 7th DPS in the team melee can be the extra damage we need to push ahead.

 

Now before all the stealths get their panties in a twist and counter with their story of "That one time" their ninja cap won the match for the team let me point out that the Ninja Cap can work, and can be a game changer. But the odds of it working are small, and smaller still if you try it as your opening move in a match. It's more of a "Hail Mary" play to make when things are going bad or normal strategies have ground to a stalemate (plus by then the complacency of the defenders may have built so you have a better chance).

 

Also it doesn't "Tie Up" those enemies making it easier for the attackers at mid. They're going to defend the node with 1 or 2 people regardless of your stealth attempt; owning and defending their node is what ties them up. What they're doing is tying you up, they need to be there defending anyway, now they have a slippery but squishy playtoy to fight while doing it. Even worse on Ancient Hypergates your inevitable death will actually feed them more points.

 

The move works better when you have support anyway, The enemy went all in with 7 at mid outnumbering your 6, plus they're good so your team is a strung out mess or respawns running to the slaughter. Now is the time to stealth to their node with 2 non stealths in tow. When their defender engages the 2 on 1 you slip behind for the cap while he's distracted.

 

I know alot of people are thinking I'm crazy so I'm mostly posting this so you can pay attention to how often its attempted and how rarely it works. And keep in mind that for every 1.5 seconds that passed in that failed solo ninja cap attempt that stealth player could have been elsewhere doing some good with the rest of the team.

 

Edit to add:

And please for the love of god, quit running off to the 3rd node to stealth cap once we have 2 nodes! We need your awesome interrupt skills where we're getting pounded and killed. You can stay alive in stealth interrupting long enough for us to spawn and come back.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Kerensk

[Brunner_Venda]

I think you're talking about BAD stealth players.

 

The good ones help out in mid, and then vanish when the tide has turned.

 

Thirty second later: The empire has captured both pylons! - then the round ends with the other side getting no points.

[Razamatazz]

I won't lie, I came here to bash you for being bad, or getting angry that someone executed a nice play on you, but I was pleasantly surprised to read what you wrote, mainly because you're right. There is a time and a place for the stealth capand a right and wrong way to do it.

 

+1 to ya .

[TheronFett]

Here's the thing...it's all situational.

 

Yes, I absolutely see where you're going with this thread. There are a lot of bad stealthers out there, probably more than other classes, because the stealth aspect inbreeds the "lone wolf" mentality and a lot of players feel like they're doing their "job" by playing the way you describe. On the flip side, there are some tactical advantages to playing the ninja capper that you have overlooked.

 

Many players get nervous when a stealther is around. Even if they're able to wait out being mezzed and not use their stun break, most have at least notified their team that the node is being contested. If there's a stalemate @ mid, and your opponents break off 2-3 to deal with a stealther, then the odds just shifted heavily in your team's favor. Likewise if you're already holding down 2 nodes and a stealther contests the 3rd, they are able to relieve pressure when the other team peels to send help.

 

A good stealther is aware of what his team is capable of and where he is needed most, and that's what is important. Those classes are designed for alpha strikes and control, so they're doing what they were designed to do, which is 1v1 and 2v1. Being locked up in a 6v6 firefight is not what they excel at in most cases.

Edited July 8, 2013 by TheronFett

[cashogy_reborn]

imo stealth cap is like pulling your goalie in hockey. it only works about 10-15% of the time, but when it does its *********** awesome

[Kerensk]

I think you're talking about BAD stealth players.

 

The good ones help out in mid, and then vanish when the tide has turned.

 

Thirty second later: The empire has captured both pylons! - then the round ends with the other side getting no points.

 

You're absolutely right. A good stealth knows when to go stealth and when to be part of the main attack. And that gets into the situational issue where a Stealth Cap can really help.

 

But what is common now is "I'm stealth class, I must solo ninja cap the WHOLE match." Like wherever the team goes they go elsewhere.

And as bad as players seem to be now, defenders are usually more attentive to the possibility of stealth attacks than they used to be.

[Yazka]

Excellent post, OP, and I do see your point. But on my deception sin, I often start PUG CW with striking into offnode to harass. Sure it doesn't end in cap as often as my death or stalemate. But if opponents send only one capper and rush mid I have a good chance of soloing him down and getting the node. Dueling is what stealthclasses can do well, after all. Subjectively I feel I'm more of use delaying their cap till their reinforcements arrive than on early minute of 7-7 midnode mayhem. I do join the mayhem on respawn when killed tho.

 

OP raises good point with tying up being an illusion. It doesn't benefit my team if I keep enemy defenders (as opposed to enemy cappers) busy if that doesn't result in cap. But as long as node is unclaimed, I've considered it good play to fight for it.

 

I'll think on this tho.

 

AH is a different beast naturally and feeding enemy kills is a sure way to lose the match. AH is the most difficult map to play and IMO should be reserved only for ranked. Lone stars lose AH more often than other WZs.

 

I'm sure we all agree that ninjacap is excellent strategy in Voidstar. All attackers strike on one side and wait for half a minute or so until 7 enemy players are there to repel. Pop a cloak, run to other door, burst the defender down and cap. Works often enough to be worth using. And even if reinforcements arrive before cap is done, our side has superior numbers on the other door. Or if defenders are half-asleep or "fresh", draw them away from the door and ninja the door behind their backs.

 

Oh and while 2-defenders-at-the-door-minumum would be better play and make soloninja impossible, it very rarely works like that in pugs. People tend to gravitate to where the fun is.

[Luckeyduckey]

imo stealth cap is like pulling your goalie in hockey. it only works about 10-15% of the time, but when it does its *********** awesome

 

My friend and I hit their node everytime, and cap it. So... 15% is more like 80%.

[MasterFeign]

While I don't do it myself (as I node guard instead), I've been in some hypergate games (especially) wherein another stealther has capped the enemy pylon every single round. My whole thought process during this was "the enemy can't be this bad can they?"

[stupidsyrup]

10/10

 

I agree with this post. I've Ninja'd some in my past but it is definitely a Hail Mary move. I hate the people who go for it when we have 2 nodes, and I REALLY hate the people who go on the first round of AH. FFS we could've used another orb runner at mid. ORBS WIN THE GAME. But no "I wanna be a hero" and cost is the game. Just did 1 today where I was solo guarding on my Sniper, and I would see this Sorc every time he respawned he would attempt to cap and I knew he would bring an Operative with him. That's 2 healer/DPS that could've helped at mid, but instead, I would stall them til the orb runners arrived and it was like getting bonus points from the orbs with all the kills.

[Monterone]

Depends... as a deception sin who's been playing deception since beta I have a very high rate of getting the off node. Sure, if they send two or three players I may turn around or just harass them for a good 60 seconds and then die. That gives the rest of my team ample time to do what they need to do to grab the other two nodes in CW, for example.

 

But if it's a 1v3 on enemy node for that long, and your team still can't cap mid, I probably wouldn't blame the one stealther.

[IGotRawr]

As an infiltration shadow I always try to cap the natural imperial node at the start of the match if they there's only 1 person guarding it, I can easily dispatch pretty much anybody in a 1 on 1 and cap with enough time to restealth and call for help if they rotate over. Why do I go for it? Gives my team a nice headstart in Novare Coast and Civil War, though on Hypergate I won't even consider trying to ninja the opposing pylon unless it's absolutely needed. On voidstar I mostly team up with a stealther from my team and CC the solo door guard so he can get a clean plant.

 

But as you've said, there is a time and situation for the solo stealth cap but you left out the non stealth classes that try to follow the stealth classes and make the opposition aware of your plans as a stealther, I've had matches lost at the start because some people can't think for themselves and follow you around like puppies that includes when you rush the other faction's natural node on NC or CW.

 

Also love when at the start of a VS offensive round I ask for the whole team to press a side and tell them i'm taking another stealther to ninja the other if there's only 1 guard there and they will follow us 2 stealthers to the side we told them not to come.

 

On huttball stealthers love going endzone and wait for a pass, though by doing that they hurt their team in every other area of the field, you should run ahead of your ball carrier as a stealther not camp the opposing endzone and hope for a pass

 

Stealth classes have always been fotm in pvp, the ability to attack by surprise is very appealing to most people, so you're bound to find plenty of baddies playing them the way they should not be played, not even to get into going ninja capping at the wrong time and situation... Just look at shadows/sins spamming shadow strike/maul over and over again...

[MotorCityMan]

imo stealth cap is like pulling your goalie in hockey. it only works about 10-15% of the time, but when it does its *********** awesome

 

I'll buy that analogy.

[Marcusftfw]

Sorry guys but are you all kidding or what? Is this just some massive troll post?

 

Civ War - if u don't send anyone to the opposing teams node right from the get go you are handicapping your team due to just handing the other team first tick advantage (easiest way to get there and interrupt cap without being cc'd on the way? send a stealth class).

 

Hypergates - "Orbs win games" ?? Holding the other team from capping one round will win the game if your teams not retarded, holding them from ever capping a node (which is not that hard to do with a little more coordination, as most teams will send 1-2 their side and rest mid, easy to hold off and reinforce).

 

Hutball - Yes stealth there endzone and get there as fast as possible ONCE YOUR TEAM HAS THE BALL, that way u can be interceded to, or wait for the pass.

 

NC - You can get to their node before they have finished capping unless they have sent 2 to cap, if they have u can simply turn around and head mid, or sap one first so they think your still there then head mid.

 

I seriously think you have missed the point here.

 

It's more of a case of "Bad players don't try and lose the game for your team by being bad".

I consistenly see players lose games for their teams by not watching chat, doing ridiculously low dps/hps/protection.

 

To single the terribad stealthers out is kinda simplifying one aspect of it imo.

 

Great players can cc cap with 2 ppl there.

 

Stay 30m away from the node?? Ever heard of phase walk... Man I love it when people do that.

 

NC tip, sin pull plus knockback off the cliif, cap and stealth, if theres 2 there, burst one down, stealth, sap, healthpack...

 

I swear it's like people can't see 5 inches in front of their faces sometimes.

 

Bad players are bad players, no matter what class they roll.

 

End rant.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Marcusftfw

[Sharee]

Or a good stealth defender on our natural node? I've seen a single stealth player tie up 3 opposing players almost indefinitely , mezing in stealth, and only popping out to interrupt once resolve fills. Even the most ignorant bads realize and redeploy in the time a decent stealth can tie up 2-3 players.

 

The above can just as well be done by a good stealth on the enemy node if he gets there before they cap it.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Sharee

[JouerTue]

wasting time and forces is always wrong, but a little recon to their node can't do so much damage, and if their guard is a noob..

[Sifka]

I have a question.

 

In a voidstar game yesterday, my pug team was blaming me for trying to cap the door.

We were outplayed, they had way more healers and dps than we did, so they just didnt die.

 

I saw several times that the fight was pulled a bit away from the door, so I went in stealth and try to plant the bomb and hoped they didnt see me. It has worked many times before, just not in this game. The enemy was too good and too aware.

The first 2 minutes or so I was with the main force, but I saw how pointless it was and decided to try and take chances on a ninja cap.

 

Was I really that wrong in trying to cap?

Edited July 8, 2013 by Sifka

[Marcusftfw]

I have a question.

 

In a voidstar game yesterday, my pug team was blaming me for trying to cap the door.

We were outplayed, they had way more healers and dps than we did, so they just didnt die.

 

I saw several times that the fight was pulled a bit away from the door, so I went in stealth and try to plant the bomb and hoped they didnt see me. It has worked many times before, just not in this game. The enemy was too good and too aware.

The first 2 minutes or so I was with the main force, but I saw how pointless it was and decided to try and take chances on a ninja cap.

 

Was I really that wrong in trying to cap?

 

Not at all, in regular warzones your much more likely to get through the first door, and if an inexperienced player is guarding the door then you have a shot at capping. Most (if not all) rated teams will play voidstar primarily to win on having more kills(less deaths) than the other team. This usually happens in regs only when one team is heavily stacked with the right composition and/or experienced players/premades. If you find you are dying a lot on offence and getting nowhere then the only chance for you to win is by capping a door, then by all means go for it, hopefully someone on your team is smart enough to be able to stop people coming to reinforce the door your going for rather than continuously throwing themslevs at a brick wall. If your have a decent enough team they will realize they will need to cap to win, and they should all break off while slowing/cc'ing towards the other door.

 

Do what it takes to win.

 

Sometimes the other 7 players on your team won't understand the mechanics enough to realize this is the only way.

[Sifka]

Thanks alot for your reply Marcus.

 

It has kind of become my speciality to go in unseen at the right moment and open doors. I believe I have won my team many matches this way.

 

But I recently moved to tofn, and the mentality there is so much different than where I come from, and being yelled at for doing what I thought I was supposed to do and what I believed I was good at, made me insecure.

But I willl continue to do what I am doing and become better at it as I grow.

[JP_Legatus]

Idk, you seem to be forgetting the point that there are bads defending nodes just as often as bads attacking.

 

I find that in the vast majority of hypergates the off node is a "guaranteed" cap, often times with a lone juggernaut sitting right on the node, in some cases they don't even have their breaker. Other times it is less obvious and more risky, but still you'll get sorcs not using their barrier to interrupt after the 2nd sap or a PT not using his shoulder cannon (lulz pretty good on that one, seriously dude wow just press your button).

In civil war or novarre it gets harder but not by much. I love knocking slow-movers off the cliff for novarre caps or pull + LOS phase walk on slow movers for civil war.

 

I think the problem you're having is playing with bads in general, and not specific to playing with bad stealthies. Ninja cap is very viable in regs and will remain viable for a long time simply due to the random nature of regs and the classes and players that are often forced to defend when they have no business being there.

 

In rateds sure, ninja caps are uncommon, I've had it succeed plenty of times but you're better off going for hard switches in most cases. It is a last-ditch effort in rated play for sure, unless in some rare case you see something that can be exploited.

 

OP is clearly just frustrated at playing with bads. It's not specific to stealthies but he has to find somewhere to funnel his anger. I have just as often had easy caps go bad when terrible snipers follow me to an offnode and bring extra defenders to what would otherwise have been an easy win.

Edited July 8, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[sanchito]

...

And after they die what do they do? They try again, and again, and again. Even though the enemy is now very aware and defensive about stealth incursions.

...

.

 

I do this in hypergates once it's obvious we are not winning the battle for mid. Not because i think i will win us the game but because i want to practice stealth capping...

Edited July 8, 2013 by sanchito

[HBMalachorfive]

The most annoying thing about playing a stealth class is the people who think they are 'helping' you by following you to the enemy node. Most matches when playing on my Sin or Scoundrel I'll rush mid with the group (Except for ACW then its more 50/50). I'll smack the healer around constantly and make sure that they get that feeling like I'm always going to pop out and gank them again. If things turn bad and we are down then I'll have an attempt at a node, but you always get those players who think its a great idea to tag along.

We are stealth for a reason...enough said.

I enjoy a good comeback as does anyone but I reckon they would happen more often If people used that thing between their ears.

[mulzii]

I dunno about everyone else, but i like to watch to see how the enemy elects to guard the pylon. Some folks wont guard it at all, some will have a sole stealther, some sit close to it, some far away, etc. I usually keep a count of the enemy at all times. So i know how many stealthers may be guarding. If the enemy rushes my pylon (seen this alot), that usually means they have 5+ folks rushes your pylon, and a couple of folks running orbs. If i can sneak back and ninja their pylon while they are running orbs, i can hold the pylon for a good 30+ seconds solo, assuming i have all my cooldowns. As long as my team can hold down my own pylon, thats a sure win.

 

Theres alot of meta game with ninjaing an enemy pylon. My success rate is over 75%: if i go over there, i usually get it, or at least make their whole team retreat to it, relieving the pressure on my pylon/mid, and letting my team running orbs uninhibited. But i know when the odds are against me, and will change my strat and either node guard or help mid and not carelessly throw myself for a ninja cap just for the hell of it.

 

Only thing i hate is setting up a ninja in the late rounds (usually be leaving it alone in the early ones), getting the ideal ninja scenario, and some idiot non-stealth class follows me over.

[Atramar]

ninja-ing is an art.

some just can't do it

some are briliant.

but some are just close minded and see 'rush middle rush middle rush middle'

[Joesixxpack]

Good ninjas are good.

 

Bad ninjas are bad.