Gear check For Group Finder, becoming a necessity.

[recsa]

I would +1 a brain check, but gear check is not needed in soooo easy content. 99% of my problems in Group Finder FPs/OPs has been with lack of brain on ppl, not gear.

 

BW, pls, add some IQ tests to the account creation and then use that info to find matches on the LFG tool :D:D

[gorstram]

If I run into people trying to get in on a 55hm FP while being completely undergeared, I /ignore the undergeared player, leave the group, and then queue again.

[LordArtemis]

What about teaching people the value of gear?

 

You can't teach a casual player the value of gear. Casual players, as a general rule do not care about gear.

 

Simply put, IMO, casuals should not be running flashpoints/ops unless it is with friends, solo or a guild. They have little concern for proper gear or gameplay and therefore effect hardcore players ability to enjoy their game the way they want to enjoy it.

 

By the same token hardcore players need to stay away from SM and PUGs. Hardcore players do not belong in PUGs....they are the domain of players that do not take the same things seriously that you do, or at least most likely.

 

So, simple...SM and PUGs the domain of casuals, Premades and HMs the domain of hardcores.

 

That would solve the problem. Everyone gets to play the way they want without a need for a gear check system.

 

There is a reason I do not nor will I ever run a HM....I do not belong there. I know my place.

 

...If I haven't made it clear, Group Finder is not a tool for hardcore players, with the exception of perhaps HM. You are supposed to form premades. Stay out of PUGs. You do not belong.

Edited July 7, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Amaranth]

You can't teach a casual player the value of gear. Casual players, as a general rule do not care about gear.

 

Simply put, IMO, casuals should not be running flashpoints/ops unless it is with friends, solo or a guild. They have little concern for proper gear or gameplay and therefore effect hardcore players ability to enjoy their game the way they want to enjoy it.

 

Out of curiosity, what do you define as being the attributes of a casual player (vs. a hardcore player)?

[LordArtemis]

Out of curiosity, what do you define as being the attributes of a casual player (vs. a hardcore player)?

 

Well, to be fair there are many definitions and mine is not the last word on the matter. Just my slant.

 

But to me, a casual player is one that is less interested in gear, advancement and recognition and more interested in convenience, casual features and appearance. Casual players play to have fun and experience content.

 

A hardcore player is one that is less interested in things like appearance (unless it signifies accomplishment), convenience, etc and is more concerned with gear and advancement. Hardcore players tend to play to challenge themselves and accomplish goals.

 

Casuals embrace the F2P/Market model generally, are not as concerned about P2W and want to involve themselves in the world of the game.

 

Hardcores tend to dislike the F2P/Market system as it represents reward without challenge, something contrary to their version of fun.

 

 

Please note how I did not insult either group, nor try and make one more appealing then the other. I am a casual player, or consider myself one, but do not think that hardcore players are not important...in fact it is generally accepted that hardcore players tend to be more loyal, casuals more transient.

 

I hope that answers your question.

[SkunkWerks]

You can't teach a casual player the value of gear. Casual players, as a general rule do not care about gear.

 

I'm a casual and I care about gear.

[LordArtemis]

I'm a casual and I care about gear.

 

....hence the "general rule" bit.

 

I eat steak with a fork. As a general rule most folks use both a knife and a fork. See?

[SkunkWerks]

....hence the "general rule" bit.

 

Eh, that's a bit of a cop-out.

 

If for no other reason than between the states of "caring about gear" and "not caring about gear" there exists a broad spectrum of possibilities.

 

"Caring about some gear", for instance. Or "caring about gear sometimes".

 

Not buying it. But then I have a hard time with oversimplifications like this.

[Amaranth]

I hope that answers your question.

 

It does, thanks. As you mentioned there are a lot of definitions of casual vs. hardcore, so I was just curious in what context you were using the terms.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Amaranth

[LordArtemis]

Eh, that's a bit of a cop-out.

 

If for no other reason than between the states of "caring about gear" and "not caring about gear" there exists a broad spectrum of possibilities.

 

"Caring about some gear", for instance. Or "caring about gear sometimes".

 

Not buying it. But then I have a hard time with oversimplifications like this.

 

Fair enough. But it's not mathematics.....a general question requires a general answer. A more exact answer that is completely accurate would be impossible...so generalization is mandated.

 

That's why I make a point of qualifying it both as an opinion and a "general" rule....meaning it is wide open to exceptions and interpretations.

 

For instance, though I am a casual player I care about gear a little, as far as it makes it convenient for me to level and experience the story content. I don't participate in end game very much, so I have little need for end game gear...my gear is for appearance. And I spend quite a bit of time on my appearance.

 

But yes...I am always tweaking my mods to get the best over-performance out of my toon to make my leveling process a breeze. So I would be one of those exceptions....in a way.

Edited July 7, 2013 by LordArtemis

[SkunkWerks]

Fair enough. But it's not mathematics.....a general question requires a general answer.

 

When being asked what your specific idea of a "casual" is, that is, by definition, not a general question. Nor was the answer you rendered general. Not suggesting it's invalid, either. If that's what it personally means to you, it's probably the most meaningful answer- to you.

 

A more exact answer that is completely accurate would be impossible

 

My point is that an exact answer doesn't exist.

 

All you've really got is people's feel for what it is. That breeds assumption, and this in turn leads to proceeding not on fact, but on falsehood. This was the general thrust of the line of reasoning to which you were responding.

 

I stand by it. If you write off someone as "not caring" about a thing before you've bothered to ask them and get their answer on the matter, then the fault is yours.

Edited July 7, 2013 by SkunkWerks

[LordArtemis]

When being asked what your specific idea of a "casual" is, that is, by definition, not a general question. Nor was the answer you rendered general. Not suggesting it's invalid, either. If that's what it personally means to you, it's probably the most meaningful answer- to you.

 

 

 

My point is that an exact answer doesn't exist.

 

All you've really got is people's feel for what it is. That breeds assumption, and this in turn leads to proceeding not on fact, but on falsehood. This was the general thrust of the line of reasoning to which you were responding.

 

I stand by it. If you write off someone as "not caring" about a thing before you've bothered to ask them and get their answer on the matter, then the fault is yours.

 

I think we might be splitting hairs here, but to provide proper respect for your viewpoint I think it would be better to say fair enough. I do understand what you are saying.

[rlamela]

I am a healer at 55. A dps at 55. and a tank at 55.

 

as a dps I know what awaits me for entering gf queue. That's not what I'm going to rant about.

 

I'm ranting about the fact that we get (clueless) people queueing up in level 55 HMs with blue level 44 armorings on them. Just had a whole group of em, the most powerful one had 1 69 item, and green implants, and not even the latest ones.

 

Mandalorian raiders 55 HM. Naturally, cc for this group is overrated, and of course we get shredded when we get 5 salky hounds jumping on us in 1 go.

 

Keep going in, keep dying. Had enough as we wouldn't stand a chance. But yeah what gets me is that I get the lockout. The only one with the proper gear in it, why is this happening, why does any dps have to wait another hour in GF because of people that... don't know... Can't read?

 

It is evident most people can't, so yeah,although I believe this was already done, I request once again an automated gear checker for group finder, at least for the high level end game content.

 

And yeah also if you could implement a queue status for the group finder it would also be appreciated. Thanks for reading me out

 

The only logical thing for bioware to do is provide everyone who uses Group Finder.......Wait For It ........PVE BOLSTER

Edited July 8, 2013 by rlamela

[Tachenko_Yuri]

The only logical thing for bioware to do is provide everyone who uses Group Finder.......Wait For It ........PVE BOLSTER

 

Yeah, kick down the stories quests and planet quests down even further, like if double XP didn't do enough of that already.

 

There's a chain in "flashpointing" that should be followed... 50 HM yields black hole gear and daily comms which in turn can be used for 66 rating gear, which is what is requested for 55 HM

 

Ever since 450 crafting has been in the game, THIS WHOLE HOOP can be skipped, being 66 grade armoring, enhs ,mods, hilts and barrels craftable, with the rarest material being one found through mission, so there's no excuse for people.

 

So, recapping, 66 mods can be obtained by:

 

Peeled off the GTN at roughly 30k per piece.

Crafted.

Basic comms through quite a few dailies, with also a combo of DAILY:GALACTIC CONFLICTS + Daily group finder 50 HM = 15 comms.

 

Plenty of ways to obtain 66 gear. No need for a bolster for those as there is no excuse for people to go in 55 HMs without gear, specially tank or heals who get a flashpoint instantly for just entering the gf. meh.

[Myxam]

People like to just say no, or to come up with a hundred reasons THEY don't want it. The same thing happened in WoW with the gear score issue.

 

You get under-geared people trying things to high for them for whatever reason (be it the thrill, experience, loot, or just not knowing, whatever) Now with guilds, friends, etc more power to them for trying it, but when 3 random people who didn't agree ahead of time have to suffer and wipe over and over because a tanks dies easy, a healer cant keep up or a dps cant beat the enrage timer just so that 1 under-geared person doesn't feel bad , is foolish.

 

Soon what happened in WoW will be here, the group forms, the Tank or Healer who has good gear says "I'm not moving til we remove the XXXXX with the green mods and crappy gear". People say screw you, so he stands there til hes kicked and the whole groups waits for a replacement which often takes time, eventually falling apart. Finally people realize that's going to happen and just decide it isn't worth the trouble and vote kick the bad geared person so they can get the daily done.

 

Having ANY sort of gear score/ranking system, even if fairly relaxed only makes things a bit easier on people all around. If you have lower gear, most folks don't want to be the one getting ridiculed and yelled at that they suck, and might not know when they are ready to move onto harder runs, so a system saying "hey i got to (whatever) level 200, it says i should be ready to do hard mode 55's YAY!"

 

My opinion of course, even a basic gear system would save many people (on both sides) a good bit of headaches.

 

Except this already exists. We have a Gear Level system. We have people who refuse to make themselves useful until poorly geared players are removed. We have elistis, and we have casual players who don't like wasting what little time they have on someone who doesn't bother to learn the game.

 

Face it guys, MMORPGs are -not- casual games, they involve use of upper level mathematics (College Algebra), pattern and trending watching, and many more College-level concepts and methods. A Casual game is something mindless, a time sink, like Call of Duty, PopCap Games, or Battlefield, somewhere your time and effort invested does not equate proportionally to progress made in the game.

 

Gear Check in Group Finder: Yes, give it a minimum score of Campaign (61), and make those that don't make the grade ineligible for queuing-- its level 55 Hard Modes for pete's sake, not Story Mode -- it already does this for the Story Mode Operations. Its entry-level endgame, and there is no such thing as a true casual player at that point.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Myxam

[LordArtemis]

Actually MMOs are becoming casual more and more as time goes on.

 

The simple solution is for Hardcore players to stay out of PUGs unless they are queing for HM, and Casuals should stay out of HM, perhaps only do SM occasionally if they group up with friends, guild or like minds.

 

The separation between the two groups of players exists because of ideological differences in gameplay. It needs to remain solvent...it is far to late for a gear check tool, that ship sailed long ago.

Edited July 8, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Myxam]

Actually MMOs are becoming casual more and more as time goes on.

 

The simple solution is for Hardcore players to stay out of PUGs unless they are queing for HM, and Casuals should stay out of HM, perhaps only do SM occasionally if they group up with friends, guild or like minds.

 

The separation between the two groups of players exists because of ideological differences in gameplay. It needs to remain solvent...it is far to late for a gear check tool, that ship sailed long ago.

 

There are somethings that always remain the same, stats make your stick bigger, health makes you take more punches to the face. What stat is better than the other. How much damage will this attack do. What's the best build/spec/talent tree. All that is determined by mathematics. And that, is something that will always be apart of MMORPGs. There's a time investment, expectations to be met, you don't have to spend every waking minute, but the enjoyment in a game like SWTOR, is the idea of forever improving. If you can't take the time to get geared enough for the content, why should you even be allowed to waste someone else's time?

 

Of course there would be ways around it, inviting them to your group and queuing with a full group etc. We all came to have fun, my fun shouldn't be sacrificed for someone else's because they can't put the same time in, and I don't play taxi unless I know the person and want to see them get better -- even then I usually supply them with information rather than gear. I spent time so I could do my job, bollocks to anyone who won't.

[Tachenko_Yuri]

New czerka hardmodes with tough tactics and fights in it, people still in the group finder with 61 gear.

 

Luckily enough for me, i'm in 72 as are other guildies, so we can compensate.

 

but the problem's still there. people in full 61 entering stuff that isn't meant for them. yet.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Tachenko_Yuri

[johnduane]

Ok, you put in Gear Check, I get to put in NO FREAKIN SPEEDERS. If you don't want to properly run the FP get the hell out.

 

Saving YOU time doesn't concern me. If you've run the FP too many times and don't care to do it properly, drop and let someone else in. Just as selfish as people who are under-geared.

Edited August 16, 2013 by johnduane

[Tachenko_Yuri]

Ok, you put in Gear Check, I get to put in NO FREAKIN SPEEDERS. If you don't want to properly run the FP get the hell out.

 

Saving YOU time doesn't concern me. If you've run the FP too many times and don't care to do it properly, drop and let someone else in. Just as selfish as people who are under-geared.

 

what's that got to do with everything?

 

Besides, in czerka's story mode flashpoints speeder can't be taken out, in any moment..

[JMacneish]

gear check YES just to make sure a lvl 55 hm is NOT a group of players in gear as described by the OP but the real question is what should be the min lvl my opnion should be at least the old campaign/dreadguard gear after all some of us did the new HM flashpoints in that gear when 2.0 was released (granted it was slow going but was DOABLE)

[Esproc]

So an observation I am seeing:

 

You use Group Finder, why?

 

You do not have a guild, or enough people in the guild, to run through the content.

 

You do not have friends, or enough, for like reason.

 

You used the group finder and had other people in those groups "carry" you to get you geared and now you complain when the shoe is on the other foot.

 

Yes there are people who are very badly geared in either low level gear or even (sic) wrong gear.

This can make for some very tough runs, but even so we have been able to tough it out, and somehow manage to get through.

 

There has, as of yet, only been one group that I have left after all this time.

 

Look at it as a challenge above and beyond to see just how good you are, and the other players that you are grouped with.

 

Happy Hunting and Have Fun!

Edited August 16, 2013 by Esproc

[ZolanSilverspear]

Sometimes this community as a whole has both listening and understanding problems above and beyond personal selfishness. The simplest suggestion turns into a mindless debate.

 

For GF content up to L50: No gear req. is necessary, Level requirement is enough. Nobody is suggesting otherwise as far as I can see anyway.

 

For elder game content (L50 or L55); Gear requirement is a necessity! The game mechanics bind character improvement to gear at the Elder Game (L50 or L55) not level. A toon in campaign gear and a toon in basic gear does have a difference, an equivelant to 3-4 Levels in the game content before. You don't take L30 players in to L45 FP, why is it or should it be different in elder game? If an elder game content requires (REQUIRES!) a minimum gear (which they well damn DO!) that should be added as a requirement for GF.

 

The idea of GF is finding players that you can play with and contribute to. It is not for anyone to be carried along, neither it is for creating an additional challenge of carrying around a person not prepared for the mission.

 

Also all naysayers do consider this! 66 Gear is readily available from multiple sources including crafting and GTN and does not require grinding, as has been already mentioned.

[Amaranth]

How do you define the threshold? For example, after I level a toon to 55, I always run the dailies and weeklies long enough to get a full set of 66 gear from the vendor before doing 55 HMs. However, since they don't carry belts/bracers, I leave those at 58. Would I not qualify if you set the gear check at 66? What about when fully geared toons in my guild bring along fresh 55s just to help them get gear?

 

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I just haven't experienced this issue with under geared people. Occasionally I do see them in FPs, but we hardly ever wipe as a result of that, because the content is pretty trivial. Usually when we wipe it's due to someone not knowing the mechanics of a fight, and has nothing to do with level of gear.

[hadoken]

How do you define the threshold? For example, after I level a toon to 55, I always run the dailies and weeklies long enough to get a full set of 66 gear from the vendor before doing 55 HMs. However, since they don't carry belts/bracers, I leave those at 58. Would I not qualify if you set the gear check at 66? What about when fully geared toons in my guild bring along fresh 55s just to help them get gear?

 

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I just haven't experienced this issue with under geared people. Occasionally I do see them in FPs, but we hardly ever wipe as a result of that, because the content is pretty trivial. Usually when we wipe it's due to someone not knowing the mechanics of a fight, and has nothing to do with level of gear.

 

They could have it set really low just to prevent the real underperformers - say require average level 50 (blue) item level for 55 hardmodes. I don't think that's unreasonable to achieve and technically the instances are still doable with a bit of work (I think, never actually tried that).