Appletaz Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) If one ever needed an example of how a dps meter creates an antagonist community, all they would ever have to do is to read this thread and see how the pro-dps meter people treat the others. It is the kind of behavior I experienced when it was introduced to Rift. Funny how Lineage 2 and Aion players were able to discern how to kill a boss thru tactic and strategy, or keep doing it til they figured it out, and for some unknown reason ex-Wow players simply cannot do it. Or how they could put together an effective party and allow for some mistakes and suggestions, and ex-WoW players just cannot. Edited February 14, 2012 by Appletaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dachosen Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) If one ever needed an example of how a dps meter creates an antagonist community, all they would ever have to do is to read this thread and see how the pro-dps meter people treat the others. It is the kind of behavior I experienced when it was introduced to Rift. Funny how Lineage 2 and Aion players were able to discern how to kill a boss thru tactic and strategy, or keep doing it til they figured it out, and for some unknown reason ex-Wow players simply cannot do it. Or how they could put together an effective party and allow for some mistakes and suggestions, and ex-WoW players just cannot. Are u kidding me? All of the anti-meter faction say the same stuff. What are u guys smoking really? "Dps meter maniacs will be rude to us and treat other ppl bad :(" . Blame the idiots who treat u bad not the tool!!! But u have to show respect to guys who want to play with it and try to max their performance allowed by their skillcap. And if u are so afraid of community will go berserk over just one addon, that community was never so sane to begin with Edited February 15, 2012 by Dachosen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benuvil Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Combat logs are needed. EverQuest succeeded for years with 1 thing. It was a combat log, that was all you had. A combat log, and unless you were a bard - a handful of abilities to use. And a combat log. You looked at it, you saw numbers flying, it was good. Combat log. Combat log. Enough said. P.S. - give me more end-game content asap we already beat your game jeez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentone Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 We don't need this combat log junk in the game. Don't ruin the game , it just got started. I don't mind the UI changes etc thats cool to have but combat logs are toxic to mmo's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKDECH Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I like the combat logs, but damage meters really ruin a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeda Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 We don't need this combat log junk in the game. Don't ruin the game , it just got started. I don't mind the UI changes etc thats cool to have but combat logs are toxic to mmo's. Yeah we dont need this junk but we have to have LFG and SGR right. We also have to lower the costs of training and add in more solo content. Everything you dont want is bad and everything you want is needed. We get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonefoxSwe Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Oh look another thread about this. It'll go the same way. I'll just leave the same question here as the other. Why are you afraid of metric evaluation tools? My theory is that the people who are complaining about damage meters are the people who do bad dps. They have a very invested interest NOT to have combat logs/damage meters implemented. Because some of us like to play the old way by watching and learning the mechanics of the game without something telling us what we have done when we can see it with our own eyes. It's a part of the game for us to figure out what hapens, when it hapens and how to counter it. And to be honest.....there is already a way to see if your dps is high enough. The faster mobs/players go down.....the more dps you do. But hey.who am I to judge others... I just play the game the way I like it. If others want dps-meters.......fine. Just don't force me to use it since I want to play without them since there are other factors then DPS involved. Do you know that backup-healing and interupts lower the DPS? Do you know that using triggers (like canons etc) lowers your DPS? These are some things that alot of ppl tend to forget...parts of the game that need to be done and if ONE player in grp do them alone....well that person will be last on the DPS-list and therefor he/she is a bad player? I don't think so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleshharrowerx Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 You don't have to use combat meters, you don't have to raid with people that use them. However, the converse is true, people who like to use them don't have to keep you in their raid if you are failing to pull your weight. It's called hardcore vs. casual, and there is room for both play styles. It's like real life, if you play in a company's softball league then you wouldn't expect the team to use analytics since it is casual play. If you play major league baseball, then you better bet there going to be looking at your stats and hopefully working with you to improve based on those stats vs. just dropping you at the first sign of a problem. Saying that no raid should have access to combat meters is like saying your kid should be allowed to play varsity regardless of how they perform or that any clumsy fool should be allowed to play pro sports in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arigo Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Because people don't like to be reminded that they're only succeeding on the hard work of others? Hard work. I loled. Son, if you think pushing buttons in a video game is hard work, you have one hell of a rough life ahead of you. Edited February 18, 2012 by Arigo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krinaman Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 You don't have to use combat meters, you don't have to raid with people that use them. However, the converse is true, people who like to use them don't have to keep you in their raid if you are failing to pull your weight. It's called hardcore vs. casual, and there is room for both play styles. It's like real life, if you play in a company's softball league then you wouldn't expect the team to use analytics since it is casual play. If you play major league baseball, then you better bet there going to be looking at your stats and hopefully working with you to improve based on those stats vs. just dropping you at the first sign of a problem. Saying that no raid should have access to combat meters is like saying your kid should be allowed to play varsity regardless of how they perform or that any clumsy fool should be allowed to play pro sports in my opinion. The problem is that once allowed they become standard eguipment in LFG pugs. Making the pugs even less bearable: - DPS unloading, pulling agro, wiping group - check - DPS AOEing CCed mobs because their AOE does the most damage - check - DPS standing in fire to continue DPSing - check - DPS not focus firing so they can have a mob to themselves (nothing worse on the DPS meter than a long induction wasted because the group killed the mob) - check - Annoying epeeners linking after every fight or asking "anyone got a meter" when they clearly do - check - Annoying epeeners telling everyone else how to play based on the meters while totally ignoring gear - check Yeah, I get that meters can be useful and maybe even fun among friends/guild members. But my experiene in pugs has been that they cause far more damage than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleshharrowerx Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 The problem is that once allowed they become standard eguipment in LFG pugs. Making the pugs even less bearable: - DPS unloading, pulling agro, wiping group - check - DPS AOEing CCed mobs because their AOE does the most damage - check - DPS standing in fire to continue DPSing - check - DPS not focus firing so they can have a mob to themselves (nothing worse on the DPS meter than a long induction wasted because the group killed the mob) - check - Annoying epeeners linking after every fight or asking "anyone got a meter" when they clearly do - check - Annoying epeeners telling everyone else how to play based on the meters while totally ignoring gear - check Yeah, I get that meters can be useful and maybe even fun among friends/guild members. But my experiene in pugs has been that they cause far more damage than good. Understand your point about pugs but you can always form a group a friends to play with on a regular basis. Look, I'm not trying bash on things here....but analytics is a big part of the fun in these games for myself and many people that I play with. Why couldn't an lfg tool have a button that says "combat log on/off"? Why not cater to a diverse set of play styles vs. saying you just have to play the game one way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mufutiz Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) sure, they will be in the game at some point. It's still laughable to not offer such a pivotal tool in the game right at launch. I just hope people will not forget this crap. Just as they hopefully don't forget BW allowing 50 premades steamrolling lowbies to easy BM in ffa brackets for the first month. Or the complete disaster that was Ilum. Or...one of the many other things they will definitely forget... Edited February 19, 2012 by mufutiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hauvarn Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I like this but now were just gonna see threads complaining they didn't do fast enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mufutiz Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) I like this but now were just gonna see threads complaining they didn't do fast enough I hope so. It's truly shameful they even went live without combat logs... Edited February 19, 2012 by mufutiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stejo Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Heh, this thread still going. There's nobody left around that gives a crap anymore. Game over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hauvarn Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I hope so. It's truly shameful they even went live without combat logs... I know it's despicable, Everyday it's not there my eyes bleed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mufutiz Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Because some of us like to play the old way by watching and learning the mechanics of the game without something telling us what we have done when we can see it with our own eyes. STOP LYING. You like getting instagibbed by a boss or shot in the back in pvp and not know what it was? Allright, I believe you. However the reason is not because you are "oldschool", but because you apparently just don't care. Disable your combat log once it is in the game. Enjoy. combat logs have been in games like this for well over a decade now. they ARE oldschool and every single mmo I ever played had a combat log right at launch.. Except for this one. Edited February 19, 2012 by mufutiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlander Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 STOP LYING. You like getting instagibbed by a boss or shot in the back in pvp and not know what it was? Allright, I believe you. However the reason is not because you are "oldschool", but because you apparently just don't care. Disable your combat log once it is in the game. Enjoy. combat logs have been in games like this for well over a decade now. they ARE oldschool and every single mmo I ever played had a combat log right at launch.. Except for this one. I think they kept it out so we could not see how messed up the game is and have proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mufutiz Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I know it's despicable, Everyday it's not there my eyes bleed. the worst part is once they are in the game I can fully concentrate on some of the other truly headspinning design issues in this game. like there is no way to turn off the smart camera follow... again, something I never experienced in another game and would never expect to be forced to put up with. Yet, swtor surprises me again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hauvarn Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 the worst part is once they are in the game I can fully concentrate on some of the other truly headspinning design issues in this game. like there is no way to turn off the smart camera follow... again, something I never experienced in another game and would never expect to be forced to put up with. Yet, swtor surprises me again... It's like peeling your skin off your bones I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mufutiz Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I think they kept it out so we could not see how messed up the game is and have proof. probably not the main reason but I have no doubts this was a nice little sideffect of the whole thing. Personally I don't care that much about dps meters (although I sure like to top them!!) but I don't think anyone would be surprised to see gigantic disparities between class performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollcageuk Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 STOP LYING. You like getting instagibbed by a boss or shot in the back in pvp and not know what it was? Allright, I believe you. However the reason is not because you are "oldschool", but because you apparently just don't care. Disable your combat log once it is in the game. Enjoy. combat logs have been in games like this for well over a decade now. they ARE oldschool and every single mmo I ever played had a combat log right at launch.. Except for this one. Instagibbed by a boss... from what I have been reading, not a single boss in game is so hard that groups are not taking them down without too much effort, so if anyone got instagibbed, it did not take long to work out how to beat the event. I certainly haven't faced a boss yet that could not be beaten in less than 5-10 attempts, have you? shot in the back in pvp... how is a combat log going to help you...it will show you got shot...and? how is showing the damage done by the shot going to help. It was enough to kill you. Basically, combat logs and damage meters are for extremely bad players who can't even work out how to beat even easy events. or they are for "leet" idiots so they can show off. Neither is one I would like to play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Covalent Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 probably not the main reason but I have no doubts this was a nice little sideffect of the whole thing. Personally I don't care that much about dps meters (although I sure like to top them!!) but I don't think anyone would be surprised to see gigantic disparities between class performance. Yeah it's unlikely the balance is all there yet. But at least we will finally get to talk about problems that we know for a fact are there. Right now people are calling class dps differences based purely on a feeling that they get from how the numbers roll I guess. It's not very productive when the main problem is not being able tell if the problem is even real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karbardin Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 It'd be nice to know exactly how I died while I AFK'd momentarily on Corellia. I"m thinking it was one of those level 11 chest farmers using a 3rd party God-Mode Hax, but I'll never know. Nerf low level chest farmers plzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnathis Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Combat logs and dps meters bring accountability to a raid team. They also help people see where they go wrong with their rotations and correct the problem. They also allow people to see how they're stacking up against others of the same class and spec. How are any of these things bad? With damage meters implemented forming groups will be less about the gear and more about the skill of the player...is the current situation better? Am I missing something? Do people really like basing the decision of who to invite/keep in their groups based on gear alone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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