Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned

[KeyboardNinja]

There's nothing premature about declaring something is mathematically impossible because it's very easy to extrapolate what your DPS is going to be compared to what is needed.

 

Which is exactly what I did in an earlier reply to this thread. The minimum DPS is far, far below what the guilds here are claiming to be parsing. So either there is an unbelievable amount of movement and DPS loss going on, there's a mechanic which somehow adds a non-trivial amount of hitpoints (about 500k), there's a mistake in my analysis, or some combination of the three.

 

Since no one has yet pointed out any errors or missing mechanics, the mathematical analysis as stands says that the fight is possible, but appears to require a lot more DPS uptime and/or sustain than is tenable in light of the fight's mechanics in their current form.

[maebeebuzz]

My point being people said omg omg its to easy! now its omg omg its to hard, it must be impossible, it must be broken! What will make people happy?

 

 

We never said it was impossible, that was everyone else.

We still argue if we had been more on our game we could have done it with a little bit of RNG luck.

We hope they dont fix it and let us throw ourselves at it again.

 

28% is the lowest we got, with enrage. But in a good dps attempt we could get only 2 lightning storms and shields.

Leave it how it is, at least until its OBVIOUS no one can clear it.

 

It's been less than 24 hours folks, man up.

[RakeshZeal]

Dumb question... does moving kel'sara through the red circles deal damage to her?

[SamuelAU]

I can almost predict an onslaught of, "You can't comment because you haven't attempted the fight!" abuse in response to my post.

 

My guild raids two nights, total of 4-5 hrs per week. When we go into NiM TFB in two hours we're not even going to attempt the Dread Guards on NiM. If the guilds at the forefront of SWTOR progression are going nowhere by now, we don't have the time to bang our heads against a wall for hours on end. It's pointless and frustrating. Instead it makes more sense to cheese it in HM and do bosses 3 to 5 on NiM, and I honestly don't care about what the elite raiders think of the validity and honesty of that tactic.

 

You all wanted NiM fights tuned appropriately and here you go. I'm siding with KBN on this too; the fight isn't impossible in this tier of gear, but by no means if anyone going to clear it in the first day or even the first week, and when guilds begin to clear it they'll need some damn good attempts and no doubt just scrape through. It's time for nightmare operations to actually be nightmarish.

 

It's clear many raiders on the PTS didn't realise the weight of their words, given I saw a lot of, "Well the instance should be harder but BW isn't going to listen to us." The only way to improve the difficulty of fights such as DG which has already been tuned mechanically is to make the enrage timer right, and I don't see how that's a lazy tactic by Bioware.

 

I sincerely hope the fight remains the same, and if it's still a major obstacle in 2 or 3 months then maybe it can be tuned down. In any case don't complain because the content is actually hard; you asked for it.

Edited June 13, 2013 by SamuelAU

[RakeshZeal]

We never said it was impossible, that was everyone else.

We still argue if we had been more on our game we could have done it with a little bit of RNG luck.

We hope they dont fix it and let us throw ourselves at it again.

 

28% is the lowest we got, with enrage. But in a good dps attempt we could get only 2 lightning storms and shields.

Leave it how it is, at least until its OBVIOUS no one can clear it.

 

It's been less than 24 hours folks, man up.

 

/Hero

[Alastasia]

deleted Edited June 19, 2013 by Alastasia

[arkitip]

Good thing the 8m guilds stayed in their lane for NiM EC. Wonder what you all would have thought of pre-nerf 16m tanks and pre-nerf Kephess (who was in fact impossible without cheesing the mechanics).

[AshlaBoga]

16 Man NiM EC Kephess was still undefeated for 1 month and a day after NiM EC went live.

NiM Dread Guard are undefeated for 14.5 hours.

Not exactly a new record for SWTOR.

 

Sure the best guilds have put in as much as 8 hours on NiM Dread Guard, but it took ACE and Friendly Fire several times that to down 16 man NiM EC Kephess.

 

Heck, 16 man NiM F+B were undefeated for 10 days.

 

A boss taking longer than a week to kill has precedence in SWTOR, this isn't a new phenomenon. Let's wait for the champions to kill it at least once before it's nerfed (I doubt I'll get a pre-nerf kill so I'm not advocating for myself, but for the HC guilds).

[DJ_Sicosis]

Honestly KBN,

 

Your overall theory of 2317 seems a bit low. I can't vouch for other guilds, but seeing as though the top-rated raid teams across servers are addressing the issue, I can't help but think your analysis is off. Do I have any hard evidence to prove this? No. But I can however tell you, that based on my guilds attempts and parses, 2317 as a minimum is too low. We were pushing collectively around 2500, minus AOE, and of course burst fluctuation.

 

I also agree that until you've attempted it, seen the fight, parsed the numbers for yourself, juggled theories on mechanics and what you can do as a group to improve, you really shouldn't be antagonizing others for voicing a concern about it.

 

Now that that is out of the way,

 

I don't feel as though they should completely come in and revamp a nerf on the fight, it has only come out. But some minor tweaks and tuning is evident. My raid team going in knew we were going to have to solve the riddle of mechanics, but honestly, when I see guilds who I know are better than us struggling to even get close to downing the fight, in my mind, something is definitely wrong.

 

It's a legitimate concern that needs to be addressed.

 

Just given our sheer numbers, and taking into the account the difference between my raid team and the top raid teams on my server, its proving to be an impassable wall, not only for us but for them. In current BiS gear, I don't feel the fight is impossible, but highly improbable to clear. You're looking at like a 1-2% success rate, if even that high. There may be something we are missing, maybe we just have to punch out some crazy numbers, rework rotations, etc...but how to go about it? Nobody can give an answer.

 

Again, glad to see some really tough content, but also hoping to see it tweaked (not nerfed) a little bit in order to give us a little better odds on clearing it, as to not mess too much with current mechanics.

[SamuelAU]

So why don't you go try it out then professor. See for yourself if there is indeed "an unbelievable amount of movement and DPS loss going on" cuz otherwise you are just throwing numbers out there and saying "OOH OOH... look how smart I am." The bottom line is this ... top raiders worldwide are saying it is broken. They have been in there. I'm saying if my guildies couldn't beat it after 8 hours of trying, then it can't be done. Yeah...I said it. So go in there yourself, check it out, and report back. Until then, **** please

This **** is what's wrong with the thread.

 

"but my guildz da best if we cant kill it NOBODY CAN K GUIZE U CAN'T SAY **** TIL U BEEN IN DERE KBN K omg u dont no anything shut up pls"

 

In a nutshell.

[TenderDeath]

28% is the lowest we got, with enrage. But in a good dps attempt we could get only 2 lightning storms and shields.

Leave it how it is, at least until its OBVIOUS no one can clear it.

 

It's been less than 24 hours folks, man up.

 

If you look at every other boss in the operation, such a strict enrage timer is nowhere to be seen. Even with our easy going raiding style, we probably have a larger window of time before the enrage timer could pop it's head during those fights. This, on top of the fact that 16m raids have always had the DPS advantage to 8m.

 

Personally, I believe that the fight is beatable in some fashion, with the perfect comp, some RNG dust sprinkled on that 1/65th attempt, and the eye of a newt. Is this content reasonable enough to allow access to varying primary dps classes? Not DG in its current state. The mechanics are more than reasonable: fix the enrage timer - don't change the fight. Nobody is asking for it to be easy. We were ecstatic to see the numbers higher and more challenging! And, it should be said, the other fights are fairly worthy of a Nightmare Mode operation, as well as, fun.

 

There is a gap between the serious raiding guilds and the ones that still can't clear NiM Kephess EC. Then, there are some in between that can defeat the content, minus the title, given a few weeks/month. At the top are the guilds that have been farming current HM Operations since PTS/Release, fully itemized with prerequisite tier gear for weeks, chomping at the bit for a challenge that should only take a handful of attempts to learn at that caliber. Should hard enrages be avoidable in Nightmare Modes, who knows?

 

If you can manage to get the Devs to set down their martinis this weekend to address DG before reset, awesome! What will happen when Sunday rolls up and everyone is still at DG? Will they eat their pride and have realized that they spent many hours suffering the incessant repetition of excellence only to be rewarded with 20% attempts and an apology from BW? We have people that skipped work and other things to bring action and spirit back into SWTOR endgame raiding only to be delayed a day and 2hrs. That's the game, I suppose, but moving forward...

[skomerko]

deleted Edited March 31, 2019 by skomerko

[TenderDeath]

You all wanted NiM fights tuned appropriately and here you go. I'm siding with KBN on this too; the fight isn't impossible in this tier of gear, but by no means if anyone going to clear it in the first day or even the first week, and when guilds begin to clear it they'll need some damn good attempts and no doubt just scrape through. It's time for nightmare operations to actually be nightmarish.

 

If you are so certain that the current state of the DG fight is intended, can you explain why every other boss in NiM TFB is a pushover in comparison? Do you truly believe there is balance in light of each other? Far be it from me to assume, go and try those fights for yourself, or take a few attempts to get a feel for the weights of each fight. Let me know if Terror provides more of a challenge than DG.

[SamuelAU]

If you are so certain that the current state of the DG fight is intended, can you explain why every other boss in NiM TFB is a pushover in comparison? Do you truly believe there is balance in light of each other? Far be it from me to assume, go and try those fights for yourself, or take a few attempts to get a feel for the weights of each fight. Let me know if Terror provides more of a challenge than DG.

Like I mentioned my guild isn't attempting Dread Guards on NiM.

 

You can't have every boss of equal difficulty, and some bosses will be more challenging in different areas to others. Compare Vorgath to Kephess in NiM EC; Vorgath was the 'pushover boss' of that instance, TWH is the 'pushover boss' of this instance. I enjoy how much it lulled everyone into a false sense of how easy NiM TFB was going to be.

[RakeshZeal]

If you are so certain that the current state of the DG fight is intended, can you explain why every other boss in NiM TFB is a pushover in comparison? Do you truly believe there is balance in light of each other? Far be it from me to assume, go and try those fights for yourself, or take a few attempts to get a feel for the weights of each fight. Let me know if Terror provides more of a challenge than DG.

 

Roadblock Boss anyone? oh right... everyone is taking the deture...

Edited June 13, 2013 by RakeshZeal

[bigheadbrandon]

Roadblock Boss anyone? oh right... everyone is taking the deture...

 

the 2nd boss of an instance shouldn't be the hardest boss, and even if you farmed bracers for a month you wouldn't have upped your dps enough to change anything

DG was the intended healer check fight and they did a great job with that.

Edited June 13, 2013 by bigheadbrandon

[bigheadbrandon]

Want to see how devs defeated them

 

bioware personally testing their content lol thats a laugh and a half

 

remember when EV was being internally tested before launch

Edited June 13, 2013 by bigheadbrandon

[DrunkWithAGun]

I hope BW doesn't back down under all this pressure. The content so far has been a joke and it is nice to finally have something to work towards. Everyone is struggling, including us, and I'm loving it.

 

If people get to the last phase and even get the boss health down a lot in last phase after just trying 1 day, that shows that it's not impossible.

 

And if all the other bosses are push-overs the answer seems simple:

 

BUFF ALL THE OTHER BOSSES UP!

[bigheadbrandon]

I hope BW doesn't back down under all this pressure. The content so far has been a joke and it is nice to finally have something to work towards. Everyone is struggling, including us, and I'm loving it.

 

If people get to the last phase and even get the boss health down a lot in last phase after just trying 1 day, that shows that it's not impossible.

 

And if all the other bosses are push-overs the answer seems simple:

 

BUFF ALL THE OTHER BOSSES UP!

 

at best with the current level of gear and a PERFECT run you're looking at a 20% enrage and that's being generous. An enraged Kelsara isn't exactly easy to survive either, you may be able to burn down a bit of the health through the enrage but once the adds spawn or she marks someone for death its OV. The only course of action I can see at this time is doing 16man, which on a perfect attempt looks like it can be done (they doubled boss hp from 8man but you have more than double the dps).

[wojtekimiolczyk]

And like how many dps are ppl putting on first boss (without a marauder in group)?

 

And yea i hope they wont switch the difficulty we need some challenge since EC HM/NiM.

Edited June 13, 2013 by wojtekimiolczyk

[Kateho]

HOW TO BEAT DG

 

Best guilds can start farming TWH, Op IX and Kephess (just skip DG with Hardmode).

 

Best try so far was 28% enrage, which is about 10% of the entire fight. So, theoretically, Gear 75 given by TWH, Op and Kephess should make it in a few weeks. You can use rerolls to collect more 75 stuff.

 

Otherwise, Scum and Villainy will be released in a month. You will farm there what is "farmable".

 

Then the DG will fall.

 

If it still doesn't die in a month and a half, Bioware might think about adding 15 sec before enrage every week until it is downed.

 

It is mathematically possible.

 

THANK YOU BIOWARE ! This is a real race. A good race for this summer.

DO NOT NERF IT, PLEASE !

[Tmanarl]

HOW TO BEAT DG

 

Best guilds can start farming TWH, Op IX and Kephess (just skip DG with Hardmode).

 

Best try so far was 28% enrage, which is about 10% of the entire fight. So, theoretically, Gear 75 given by TWH, Op and Kephess should make it in a few weeks. You can use rerolls to collect more 75 stuff.

 

Otherwise, Scum and Villainy will be released in a month. You will farm there what is "farmable".

 

Then the DG will fall.

 

If it still doesn't die in a month and a half, Bioware might think about adding 15 sec before enrage every week until it is downed.

 

It is mathematically possible.

 

THANK YOU BIOWARE ! This is a real race. A good race for this summer.

DO NOT NERF IT, PLEASE !

 

I like the idea of having a nightmare op tuned to the point where several members need drops from the previous boss in order to continue.

[Kateho]

I like the idea of having a nightmare op tuned to the point where several members need drops from the previous boss in order to continue.

 

Do you really want to lose this amazing challenge ?... Well, i don't.

 

I quite agree, playing in the order is nice. But be honest, the strat for the DG is worth being hard to beat. People need skill to move, avoid aoe, avoid lightnings, run away...

 

There will be two races : one for the DG and another one for TFB ! Twice more than i expected

 

Just enjoy the day you won't have to skip them anymore. We have a buisy summer.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Has anyone tried something with the mysterious orb thingy obtained via Dreadtooth 10 Stacks and the 16M HC bonus boss? As the DG are located near said bonus boss and the fight seems unreasonably difficult compared to the other bosses, could it be there's a secret mechanic, maybe increasing your group's dps?

[Sinbary]

I hope BW doesn't back down under all this pressure. The content so far has been a joke and it is nice to finally have something to work towards. Everyone is struggling, including us, and I'm loving it.

 

If people get to the last phase and even get the boss health down a lot in last phase after just trying 1 day, that shows that it's not impossible.

 

And if all the other bosses are push-overs the answer seems simple:

 

BUFF ALL THE OTHER BOSSES UP!

 

Agree! 1 try and then the kill on first boss isn't exactly an escalated difficulty one would expect from NiM. (yes, yes. I ****ed up and miss clicked my taunt.... **** happens!) Should have been at least a day of tries!

 

Buff the other bosses! (to late now tho.... But we still have DG!)

 

Hope they overtune atleast some of the bosses in S&V.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Sinbary