Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned

[countpopeula]

Nice to see community and amazing friendship between the apparent "best players".

 

I'm amazed that people are already calling for nerfs on this "impossible" fight.

 

"Oh but the 2nd fight shouldn't be hard hurr durr. I want NIGHTMARE to be easy mode because I'm too casual to improve"

 

Something like 10 days with 6+ hours each day is what it took to kill Firebrand & Stormcaller on 16 man nightmare. We didn't give up and go straight to hard mode because on 1 night of attempts we didn't kill it. We bucked the **** up and played the best we could and used everything we had to kill it.

 

Its pathetic seeing D&T crying about DG being impossible. 16% is the best attempt I've heard of and you "bestguildworld" give up after a best attempt of 44%. Nice.

 

Without a video or something concrete, anyone can claim any %. I don't believe anything unless there is a video, screenshot(lawl) or something else confirming progress. Again, we've said it before and I will say it again for you. If the other fights were tuned to the level the Dread Guard fight is, then I'd be eating my words. DnT steamrolled that fight in an hour, and worked for another hour or two and had Kephess at 4%. DG is clearly not tuned properly, that's the point of discussion.

[Donalj]

Without a video or something concrete, anyone can claim any %. I don't believe anything unless there is a video, screenshot(lawl) or something else confirming progress. Again, we've said it before and I will say it again for you. If the other fights were tuned to the level the Dread Guard fight is, then I'd be eating my words. DnT steamrolled that fight in an hour, and worked for another hour or two and had Kephess at 4%. DG is clearly not tuned properly, that's the point of discussion.

 

Back to EC NiM: 2nd boss was 2nd hardest boss (still 2nd hardest after nerf). 1st & 3rd were a joke. Last boss was impossible without cheesing mechanics (still hardest after nerf).

 

Now TFB NiM: 1st boss a joke. 2nd boss pretty hard. 3rd boss a joke. 4th boss easy. Last boss ________.

 

 

Boss difficulty does not need to be linear. Just because one fight is significantly harder than others does not mean it is overtuned. Just because you cant clear it on night 1 doesn't make it overtuned. But you probably cant comprehend that.

[Gilthanel]

I'm not going to pretend that I have anywhere near the level of dedication to the game as most of the people posting in this thread. I raid with a small group of friends and we find juggling eight people's schedules difficult enough at times. I also do not doubt what anyone here says about the difficulty of the fight, but I am still really excited to try it when we raid on Friday. The Hard Mode 55 content clicked and is fairly easy for us now. This fight provides an interesting opportunity to gauge how well we stack up to the more serious guilds.

 

I do have one thing to say about what I've been reading here, though. It's all very silly. The way people are talking to each other in this thread is embarrassing and I cannot help but cringe a little bit when I read some of it. Maybe I'm outside the norm here...

[shadowopsx]

Our best attempt at the Dread Guards and they enraged at 31%, we could do more dps but it's a pretty significant number of dps that we need to squeeze in. Idk it is POSSIBLE but every dps needs to be awesome and same with the healers and tanks. That might be a little too much to ask.

[AshlaBoga]

Our best attempt at the Dread Guards and they enraged at 31%, we could do more dps but it's a pretty significant number of dps that we need to squeeze in. Idk it is POSSIBLE but every dps needs to be awesome and same with the healers and tanks. That might be a little too much to ask.

 

I really hope that they don't nerf the fight too much. 30 seconds extra for the enrage timer would make the fight feasible, whereas 1 minute 30 seconds would make it a joke.

Edited June 14, 2013 by AshlaBoga

[Astarica]

A top guild absolutely should defeat an encounter in one day if it's not a challenge type encounter or a gear check. This is clearly neither due to its place in the progression. MMORPG encounters are pretty much at a logical deadend unless you're talking about truly gimmick situation. Do you really think a top player is going to say, "I only know how to dodge green circles on the ground what do I do on the new red circles???" Most of the time an encounter only stays unbeaten because it's broken in some way, since gear check are relatively trivial now. This isn't the days of EQ or even early WoW where you actually need several months to equip your raid.

 

Top MMORPG players really don't get better because at the top level any limitation is mostly due to a matter of reflex/reaction. I see a consistent design theme where assuming you hold player capability constant, you'd start out with an encounter that has a boss with X HP and people can beat it, so they raise it to 1.5X and some poeple can beat it, and then they raise it to 2X HP and so on, and the dev seems to assume there's this infinite ability to improve, even though after say 1.8X HP nobody can possibly beat the enrage timer. They look at how a top guild clear and say 'wow their DPS makes this look easy!" Yes it looks easy because you're dealing with the best players doing the maximum possible DPS. Top players make near perfection playing look easy which leads dev to think that it's somehow possible to do better than perfection, since perfection sure looked pretty easy. Asking why someone who does 2400 DPS can't do 2500 DPS with gear held constant is as silly as asking why can't a 100m runner run in under 9s, it's only 0.5s faster than the world record.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Astarica

[arkitip]

A top guild absolutely should defeat an encounter in one day if it's not a challenge type encounter or a gear check. This is clearly neither due to its place in the progression. MMORPG encounters are pretty much at a logical deadend unless you're talking about truly gimmick situation. Do you really think a top player is going to say, "I only know how to dodge green circles on the ground what do I do on the new red circles???" Most of the time an encounter only stays unbeaten because it's broken in some way, since gear check are relatively trivial now. This isn't the days of EQ or even early WoW where you actually need several months to equip your raid.

 

Top MMORPG players really don't get better because at the top level any limitation is mostly due to a matter of reflex/reaction. I see a consistent design theme where assuming you hold player capability constant, you'd start out with an encounter that has a boss with X HP and people can beat it, so they raise it to 1.5X and some poeple can beat it, and then they raise it to 2X HP and so on, and the dev seems to assume there's this infinite ability to improve, even though after say 1.8X HP nobody can possibly beat the enrage timer. They look at how a top guild clear and say 'wow their DPS makes this look easy!" Yes it looks easy because you're dealing with the best players doing the maximum possible DPS. Top players make near perfection playing look easy which leads dev to think that it's somehow possible to do better than perfection, since perfection sure looked pretty easy. Asking why someone who does 2400 DPS can't do 2500 DPS with gear held constant is as silly as asking why can't a 100m runner run in under 9s, it's only 0.5s faster than the world record.

 

I'm gonna stop you.

 

EQ raids often took the entire expansion cycle to complete. WoW made people think this casually, and now is being held as an example for "serious" raiding.

 

lol@day 1 complaints. Even in THIS game 16m progression guilds beat their heads against the Kephess wall for over a month on a CLEARLY broken fight.

[Astarica]

I'm gonna stop you.

 

EQ raids often took the entire expansion cycle to complete. WoW made people think this casually, and now is being held as an example for "serious" raiding.

 

lol@day 1 complaints. Even in THIS game 16m progression guilds beat their heads against the Kephess wall for over a month on a CLEARLY broken fight.

 

That's because it took an expansion to gear up your raid in EQ to be able to beat the gear check encounter (usually the final one, but could be earlier). Further, weapons are usually rare drops and without them you have no hope of beating a DPS check encounter.

 

When properly geared top guilds are usually beating the encounter in one night even in EQ. You don't see that kind of dominance very often because it usually took an expansion, sometimes longer, to gear everyone in your guild.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Astarica

[AshlaBoga]

After watching the 10% amazing effort by SuCka I am starting to think go in with the NiMP buff.

 

Yeah, getting some KD from Op9 and Kephess should help too.

[grallmate]

10%?

 

At this rate once you get more Kell Dragon gear from NiM WH, OP 9 and Kephess you'll clear DG.

 

C'est tres impressive

 

If a guild can hit 10% on Kelsara, a guild can down it. Eeking out 10s more up time is completely doable. I've watched a few of the streams but haven't been in yet, and before any elitists dismiss me because of that, it doesn't invalidate my insights. Anyone that disagrees might as well say you can only vote if you've been in parliament before.

 

Methods to eek out that little bit more:

- Tank them close together and have the tanks focus on the DPS target. The others can be easily held through tangential AoE and taunts from swapping. Keeping them close also minimizes time spent changing targets.

- Know when Ciphas is going to start Surging Chain and swap straight away. Consider pre-DoTing/debuffing him when this is about to happen.

- Know when Ciphas is going to leap away to choke and make sure melee aren't losing uptime for this.

- Sync all DPS CDs with Inspiration and make sure all DPS are in the Inspiration group. Multiplicity is good but many raids already do this. The fight is also long enough to get 2 Inspirations per Sentinel.

- Use your defensive CDs intelligently. Less healing for the healers means more DPS from them.

- Use Salvation intelligently. Again, less time healing means more time DPSing.

- Bring the adds down with AoE/tangential AoE. Some specs (Focus, TK, Sab, Tactics) will make this easier than others.

- Have the tanks use a main stat stim, power crystals and DPS armoring/hilt/barrel except for their set bonus armorings. Have the tanks use Underworld ear/implant instead of the Veracity ones. Have the tanks pop a power adrenal and consider a power relic.

- If Doom falls off when Ciphas dies (as it did on PTS) then if he can be killed before doom kills you, keep burning him. Also don't grab each circle as soon as it spawns. Try and keep the circles close together to minimize movement.

- Has something changed with Force Leech? On HM Shadow tanks could still use their normal rotation while leeched and the self healing just zeroed out.

[paowee]

So the 10% enrage wipe was 110,00 hp left on Kelsara. We were thinking if 8 people had a grenade for Kelsara that's

 

-> 5200 dmg x 8 = 41,600 dmg

-> Kelsara = 68,000 hp left.

 

lol this was with

 

2 Maras

1 Ars Merc

1 MM Sniper

 

PT tank (FFing with DPS)

Sin tank (FFing with DPS)

 

Sorc healer (helping DPS)

Op healer (helping DPS) and more importantly

 

3 ligthning surrges! instead of the usual 2. imo very doable. to say something so hastily at this point that it is mathematically impossible is... GrumpyCat. Wish all the other bosses were as hard as this. Op IX, Kephes, TFB. As you can see those other bosses have been downed already.

Edited June 14, 2013 by paowee

[ancksunamur]

If a guild can hit 10% on Kelsara, a guild can down it. Eeking out 10s more up time is completely doable. I've watched a few of the streams but haven't been in yet, and before any elitists dismiss me because of that, it doesn't invalidate my insights. Anyone that disagrees might as well say you can only vote if you've been in parliament before.

 

Methods to eek out that little bit more:

- Tank them close together and have the tanks focus on the DPS target. The others can be easily held through tangential AoE and taunts from swapping. Keeping them close also minimizes time spent changing targets.

- Know when Ciphas is going to start Surging Chain and swap straight away. Consider pre-DoTing/debuffing him when this is about to happen.

- Know when Ciphas is going to leap away to choke and make sure melee aren't losing uptime for this.

- Sync all DPS CDs with Inspiration and make sure all DPS are in the Inspiration group. Multiplicity is good but many raids already do this. The fight is also long enough to get 2 Inspirations per Sentinel.

- Use your defensive CDs intelligently. Less healing for the healers means more DPS from them.

- Use Salvation intelligently. Again, less time healing means more time DPSing.

- Bring the adds down with AoE/tangential AoE. Some specs (Focus, TK, Sab, Tactics) will make this easier than others.

- Have the tanks use a main stat stim, power crystals and DPS armoring/hilt/barrel except for their set bonus armorings. Have the tanks use Underworld ear/implant instead of the Veracity ones. Have the tanks pop a power adrenal and consider a power relic.

- If Doom falls off when Ciphas dies (as it did on PTS) then if he can be killed before doom kills you, keep burning him. Also don't grab each circle as soon as it spawns. Try and keep the circles close together to minimize movement.

- Has something changed with Force Leech? On HM Shadow tanks could still use their normal rotation while leeched and the self healing just zeroed out.

 

Dude, take my word we are doing that lol. We know we can kill it cause if we eliminate the 3rd bubble in the first phase we would of had him. And we rarely get that 3rd bubble. we say its doable, and will push it as such

[grallmate]

Dude, take my word we are doing that lol. We know we can kill it cause if we eliminate the 3rd bubble in the first phase we would of had him. And we rarely get that 3rd bubble. we say its doable, and will push it as such

 

I don't doubt you guys are. I'm really glad you hit 10%, it shows that it isn't horrendously out of reach nor 'mathematically impossible' as others have claimed.

 

110k health left is only 10s of full raid DPS and that can be found and as you said, avoiding a 3rd bubble would do it. I'm looking forward to sinking my teeth into this, but then again, I'm a tank so the enrage isn't really my domain. I'll still be doing everything I can to help us get there though.

[Knopik]

Suckafish hit 10% with 3 surging shields......

 

Wonder how DnT feels now for making the bold statement that it's impossible...hm

 

Interesting.

[Askesis]

Keep in mind that there is a finate amount of damage you can do in a certain amount of time. It's likely not humanly capable to reach that, but that cap exists somewhere.

 

Using the "If you can get it to XXX you can get it to XXX" argument can be dangerous, and by using that you can easily lead yourself into impossibility.

 

If you can get it to 90%, you can get it to 85%

If you can get it to 85%, you can get it to 70%

If you can get it to 70%, you can get it to 65%

etc.

 

Using this logic, you will eventually get to a point where your statement becomes simply untrue, if encounter is actually unbeatable. I'm not saying that it is, in fact, unbeatable. At the very worst, it's unbeatable with all mix-maxed 72 (plus the 75's from Writhing Terror), and will certainly be beatable with additional 75's. However, since someone has already reached 10%, I doubt it is unbeatable even in current gear.

 

This actually resembles true progression, which is refreashing. I do with it was more of a mechanic check rather than a "wait X weeks of farming the first/other bosses to get more 75's" gear check, it's nice to see that it's not just a race to see who can log on first and clear it. Remember Onyxia? As someone who was not even attempting that until a while after it was downed, it was fun and exciting watching the progression.

[ancksunamur]

Keep in mind that there is a finate amount of damage you can do in a certain amount of time. It's likely not humanly capable to reach that, but that cap exists somewhere.

 

Using the "If you can get it to XXX you can get it to XXX" argument can be dangerous, and by using that you can easily lead yourself into impossibility.

 

If you can get it to 90%, you can get it to 85%

If you can get it to 85%, you can get it to 70%

If you can get it to 70%, you can get it to 65%

etc.

 

Using this logic, you will eventually get to a point where your statement becomes simply untrue, if encounter is actually unbeatable. I'm not saying that it is, in fact, unbeatable. At the very worst, it's unbeatable with all mix-maxed 72 (plus the 75's from Writhing Terror), and will certainly be beatable with additional 75's. However, since someone has already reached 10%, I doubt it is unbeatable even in current gear.

 

This actually resembles true progression, which is refreashing. I do with it was more of a mechanic check rather than a "wait X weeks of farming the first/other bosses to get more 75's" gear check, it's nice to see that it's not just a race to see who can log on first and clear it. Remember Onyxia? As someone who was not even attempting that until a while after it was downed, it was fun and exciting watching the progression.

 

so lets do what we complain about and out gear the place, sounds.... lame

[Knopik]

Thing is, Suckafish hit shield on HEIRAD in first phase 3 times. Possibly with like, 40k hp on heirad. That's 10-14 seconds of hitting ciphas, and then switching dps. If they got by Heirad without that third shield, this encounter would be done already.

 

Just sayin, if you have the dps to get through heirad in 2 shields, it's ENTIRELY doable.

Just my 2 cents from reading these 40 pages, lol.

[Aerro]

Hey aerroh....

http://www.torparse.com/a/244570

 

look its that 2400 dps you are mocking...

 

Maybe if you looked at the date. I wasn't even halfway in BiS at the time. I was still majority previous tier. You realize you just pulled a log from months ago... how does this have any validity to it? Brb, grabbing your parse from last year- because you know its relevant.

 

Good job in attempting to call me out buddy.

 

Oh guess what- I matched your guilds DPS in previous tier gear. Nice. You showed me.

 

(Not to mention we weren't even attempting to push every little DPS out. Me just going through the motions > Your guild. /applaud)

Edited June 14, 2013 by Aerro

[Anysao]

Have you seen Kelsara's enrage mechanic, like, ever? Where she turns into Carl Lewis and insta sprints across the room to one shot people back to back to back? You can buy maybe 10, 15 extra seconds of less than optimal DPS because players are going down and hampering raid DPS. This would only matter if you had her at 150k HP or less, even then it's iffy.

 

To quote every video game developer:

"It's not a bug, it's a feature."

 

 

And I wouldn't be surprised if it was a way to force onto you smuggler/agent rolls or sage/sorcerer pulls.

 

Not a genius, but it would be a very interesting mechanic.

[FridgeLM]

Maybe if you looked at the date. I wasn't even halfway in BiS at the time. I was still majority previous tier. You realize you just pulled a log from months ago... how does this have any validity to it? Brb, grabbing your parse from last year- because you know its relevant.

 

Good job in attempting to call me out buddy.

 

Oh guess what- I matched your guilds DPS in previous tier gear. Nice. You showed me.

 

(Not to mention we weren't even attempting to push every little DPS out. Me just going through the motions > Your guild. /applaud)

 

"I wasn't trying"

 

"That's old"

 

"16 man is the same as 8"

 

I watched your stream, and will note that for a guy who likes to throw around dps numbers you don't have the confidence to put your meter on overlay.

 

In any case your numbers are 100% irrelevant to a discussion about 8 man - 16 man ranged don't have to stack on Heirad because of the healing, just as I said.

 

Only one person gets doom, meaning only 1/10 dpsers have their damage lowered at a time, and that on an individual basis you only have 1/10 the chance of getting doom.

 

Only one person gets choked and loses GCDs. Same principle as doom.

 

Only one person gets marked for death, same principle as doom.

 

If you can't see how these and other factors (such as having more than double the dpsers available to 8 man despite being only double the group size) contribute to 16 man dps being higher on both an individual and raid basis, you seriously have no clue how the game works.

[arkitip]

"I wasn't trying"

 

"That's old"

 

"16 man is the same as 8"

 

I watched your stream, and will note that for a guy who likes to throw around dps numbers you don't have the confidence to put your meter on overlay.

 

In any case your numbers are 100% irrelevant to a discussion about 8 man - 16 man ranged don't have to stack on Heirad because of the healing, just as I said.

 

Only one person gets doom, meaning only 1/10 dpsers have their damage lowered at a time, and that on an individual basis you only have 1/10 the chance of getting doom.

 

Only one person gets choked and loses GCDs. Same principle as doom.

 

Only one person gets marked for death, same principle as doom.

 

If you can't see how these and other factors (such as having more than double the dpsers available to 8 man despite being only double the group size) contribute to 16 man dps being higher on both an individual and raid basis, you seriously have no clue how the game works.

 

Actually, on average a DPS in 16m should have LOWER than the DPS on 8m because of how DPS skews (aka 10 instead of 8).

 

However, the other mechanics are obviously more difficult in 16m.

 

Let's use the DG as an example. Lightning Field from Heirad is positional based damage - which is harder in 16m. Green and red puddles are also positional, which is harder in 16m for obvious reasons (more people moving in the same amount of space with more puddles). Adds are harder in 16m, and this is less obvious - but we'll discuss it. In 8m you get 3 adds, 1 caster, 2 non caster. In theory, your DPS can focus the caster and each tank can pick up the other 2 to prevent them from running amok. In 16m, there are 6 adds with 4 non caster. There are still only 2 tanks, which means they can't control the remaining 4 adds in the same way tanks COULD in 8m. Thus, the adds are tougher in 16m also.

 

 

 

Now, as an aside. I've been on record saying 8m DG *might* be broken but I'm against saying that on day 1. I'm not for this guild vs. guild nonsense. However, you can challenge our DPS all you want. I'm a top 3 Juggernaut in the world. My parses are out there. I beat your Mercs on Writhing Horror - and I did it single target while your Mercs can and should be AOEing the babies and easily beating me. On average, I parsed higher than Dom on DG too. And having said that Aerroh consistently beats me, and I'm often in the bottom half of our DPS on DG. So yeah, I'm a top 3 for my class in the WORLD and I can end up in the bottom half of our DPS. People have watched our NiM EC Kephess videos and been amazed at our DPS on the Walker. We cleared the tightest DPS check in the game prior to this (if indeed this check is as tight) in NiM 16m tanks pre-nerf. We have more players in the top 50 of DPS parses for our raids than you. These facts are easily verified.

 

Have a good one.

[FridgeLM]

Actually, on average a DPS in 16m should have LOWER than the DPS on 8m because of how DPS skews (aka 10 instead of 8).

 

Adding more people to a role does not diminish the contributions of each individual, that literally makes no sense in any fashion. The only metric by which an 8 man player contributes more is as a percentage of total damage done.

 

However, the other mechanics are obviously more difficult in 16m.

 

You literally could not have missed the point any harder and any points you make about mechanical difficulty are irrelevant because difficulty is not what is being discussed with this issue.

 

All the mechanics that work to lower dps effect an 8 man player more than a 16. That's why Aerroh coming in here talking about how much better their dps is doesn't add up to squat.

 

Example: A person in an 8 man raid has a 1/6 chance of being targeted by doom or marked for death. In 16? 1/14. Furthermore with Doom there are comparatively more motes to soak up, so doom is cleared faster and they can stop running sooner.

 

Example 2: All dps in an 8 man raid have to stack on Heirad for the purposes of healing. This means that range will take a knockback on every shield and every lightning field - and that there's comparatively little room to move for lightning field compared to 8 man because everyone starts from the same position rather than being spread around the room. This is unlike 16 man where, due to having double the number of healers but not double the incoming damage, ranged have the luxury of standing around the room and turreting for almost the entirety of phase 1.

 

We have more players in the top 50 of DPS parses for our raids than you.

 

Grats you have people who bother to upload to sites I've never even loaded in my browser. If you had a gun to my head, I wouldn't be able to tell you what they look like and you'd have to shoot me.

 

We kill bosses. That's the metric by which we measure performance.

Edited June 14, 2013 by FridgeLM

[TenderDeath]

(Also, SFs DPS absolutely destroys your guilds DPS. That is a clear indication you have some major improving to do. I just don't understand how you can deny it. There are people... streaming... with their DPS up... putting your numbers to shame but you blatantly claim that you are doing the best.)

 

Would it blow your mind if I agreed 100% with this statement? We gave DG a handful of attempts, not really changing anything (which eats at me). We had a sub op healer who clearly didn't do anything other than heal, or stand with the thumb up the butt waiting for tanks to take dmg when he should have been dpsing. (I'm a very skilled operative healer, and I know what they can do). Our dpsers as a whole were a few % spread on the meters, which is unacceptable. Almost no adjustment was made to increase dps other than to have tanks dps. No, instead, we decided to stop. If they do not fix this by Tuesday, we will be working on DG in a very serious way, and I implore everyone to watch our streams then and make a judgement based on serious attempts.

 

If BW comes out and says, oops, then we all lose. Guilds, like ours, that changed our full-time work schedules to seriously attempt full clears in a day were offset an entire week. We won't be raiding until that evening, so undoubtedly, full clears will be given to sub par guilds that wake up earliest. But, we can at least say, we did the rest of the place just fine in our current gear without doing more than 25 total attempts. Seriously, Terror is broken, and is not a legitimate kill in its current state. So even if people cleared DG this week, and then cleared the rest, the real prize will be DG. Terror would keep them from a true clear for another week, or God knows when.

Edited June 14, 2013 by TenderDeath

[paowee]

Suckafish hit 10% with 3 surging shields......

 

Wonder how DnT feels now for making the bold statement that it's impossible...hm

 

Interesting.

 

The suckafish team who attempted it strived really hard and the guild's goal is to definitely down this fight before Tuesday next week. They will attempt it again 6/14/13 at 3:00PM PST and will be using some grenades as well. Maystrom our Operative heals will be streaming the NiM DG Council fight over at http://www.twitch.tv/maebeebuzz

Edited June 14, 2013 by paowee

[arkitip]

Would it blow your mind if I agreed 100% with this statement? We gave DG a handful of attempts, not really changing anything (which eats at me). We had a sub op healer who clearly didn't do anything other than heal, or stand with the thumb up the butt waiting for tanks to take dmg when he should have been dpsing. (I'm a very skilled operative healer, and I know what they can do). Our dpsers as a whole were a few % spread on the meters, which is unacceptable. Almost no adjustment was made to increase dps other than to have tanks dps. No, instead, we decided to stop. If they do not fix this by Tuesday, we will be working on DG in a very serious way, and I implore everyone to watch our streams then and make a judgement based on serious attempts.

 

If BW comes out and says, oops, then we all lose. Guilds, like ours, that changed our full-time work schedules to seriously attempt full clears in a day were offset an entire week. We won't be raiding until that evening, so undoubtedly, full clears will be given to sub par guilds that wake up earliest. But, we can at least say, we did the rest of the place just fine in our current gear without doing more than 25 total attempts. Seriously, Terror is broken, and is not a legitimate kill in its current state. So even if people cleared DG this week, and then cleared the rest, the real prize will be DG. Terror would keep them from a true clear for another week, or God knows when.

 

This is a respectable position, even with the backhanded 2nd paragraph.