Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned

[Aerro]

You are raiding 16 man. The thread is about issues in 8 man difficulty. Please read the thread thorougly before you post.

 

Also even if one 8 man guild somehow manages to kill the DG on NiM within this lockout, does that make the fight balanced and not requiring tuning of some kind?

 

I'm not saying the fight is impossible to do with current gear but if the best guilds in the world are not even close to killing the boss before enrage then there is something wrong with the tuning of the encounter.

 

...except quite a few posts have been going off (and quoted) about how both 8 and 16 are impossible, also that 8man requires high DPS requirements that are not all that high. The math back on like page 5 says something like 2300 DPS. Our highest is above 2800 and our lowest is barely below 2200. It being 16 has no bearing on effective DPS- as you will do the same damage no matter which raid size you attend.

[e_nk_ay]

...except quite a few posts have been going off (and quoted) about how both 8 and 16 are impossible, also that 8man requires high DPS requirements that are not all that high. The math back on like page 5 says something like 2300 DPS. Our highest is above 2800 and our lowest is barely below 2200. It being 16 has no bearing on effective DPS- as you will do the same damage no matter which raid size you attend.

 

We concluded that the person who said 2300 DPS is required is a moron and didn't take into account the NiM mechanics.

 

EDIT: On top of blatantly making up numbers and percentages. You should read countpopulea's replies, they are pretty informative earlier on.

Edited June 13, 2013 by e_nk_ay

[FridgeLM]

The completely wrong math written by someone who has never seen the encounter back on like page 5 says something like 2300 DPS.

 

Fixed that for you.

[Gyronamics]

...except quite a few posts have been going off (and quoted) about how both 8 and 16 are impossible, also that 8man requires high DPS requirements that are not all that high. The math back on like page 5 says something like 2300 DPS. Our highest is above 2800 and our lowest is barely below 2200. It being 16 has no bearing on effective DPS- as you will do the same damage no matter which raid size you attend.

 

When are you going to be streaming relative to the time now.

[Aerro]

It's pretty weak if you're just standing around doing nothing but DPS. Did you watch the video? Does the video indicate to you that I was in a position to turret?

 

No, but you have a lot of unnecessary movements as well as the rest of your other DPS. There is no reason to jump and attack me because I simply pointed out something that is easily fixed. You *can* push our more DPS since our snipers are doing 500 DPS more than you. The fights are identical in terms of mechanics. If anything you have to move MORE as a 16. Spreading in P1 = more movement in 16. There are more puddles in 16 in both P2 and 3, etc.

 

Getting defensive because someone questions your performance is a direct reflection to why you're also saying that this content is impossible. Admitting that you can improve is not anything unnecessary. We all have to improve. Denying it and blaming content is what is most likely holding people back.

[Aerro]

When are you going to be streaming relative to the time now.

 

Probably like 2 hours, 25min. I'm going to take a nap as I've worked 23 hours the past 2 days with 7 hours of sleep

[Nostramas]

All these silly arguments.

 

I can promise you one thing, it will get adjusted, and imho probably sooner than later.

[TenderDeath]

...except quite a few posts have been going off (and quoted) about how both 8 and 16 are impossible, also that 8man requires high DPS requirements that are not all that high. The math back on like page 5 says something like 2300 DPS. Our highest is above 2800 and our lowest is barely below 2200. It being 16 has no bearing on effective DPS- as you will do the same damage no matter which raid size you attend.

 

If that were the case, we would have beaten the encounter before enrage...

[e_nk_ay]

I watched 3 streams yesterday of 16 man raids and each got to Kelsara anywhere from 3.5 to 4.5 minutes and wiped to adds. It doesn't seem to be an enrage issue for 16 man like it is for 8 man, but a mechanic issue.

[KeyboardNinja]

Thank you for giving the entire thread more reason to ignore every post you've ever made by proving you didn't watch the video with any reasonable amount of attention. That's my video. I'm the only sniper in the ops group. There is no hybrid sniper and no evidence of a hybrid sniper. Enemy debuffs clearly show a tracer missile on every boss the entire duration of the video, and the two marauders are plainly visible for most of the fight.

 

I saw the arsenal merc. I was paying more attention to things other than composition, and I was fairly certain I had seen Contingency Charges on the boss at some point. Clearly that was in error. I didn't catch the fact that it was a second marauder because again, I was more interested in composition.

 

Furthermore, like someone who knows what they're doing, I avoid multidotting that fight because it'll buff the bosses and make the healers' jobs harder. As well, I was the first dps to die to the enrage (40k+ wither application), so naturally my dps will fall because of the way Mox works. At the time of death my dps was over 2500. This is not "aoe heavy" and you don't get to assign what you think my "real" effective dps is, because doing so makes you sound like you know literally nothing about how lethality works and the numbers it can pull on single target.

 

I'm glad you know what you're doing. You are aware that your main DoT is an AoE, right? You had debuffs on Kel'sara for a large part of the first phase. That's fine, and it helps even your single-target DPS a lot to be getting the crits from a second target, but you absolutely were not purely single-target DPSing the whole fight.

 

I'm well aware of the numbers that Lethality can pull on a single-target fight.

 

I'll be the first to admit I did not play perfectly (because nobody can.) I'm certainly capable of better, but the argument made by the video is that we made almost no mechanical mistakes and our DPS was good, but the boss enrages anyway because the timer is completely out of step with what player capabilities are at this gear level.

 

The video absolutely does not demonstrate "almost no mechanical mistakes". The voiceover alone is enough to demonstrate that. I'll withhold judgment here though, because as you say, I haven't done the fight. It certainly looked like there were a lot of places where DPS uptime could be streamlined (e.g. if green circles hadn't been eaten by several people, you and one of the marauders wouldn't have had to wander around so much looking for motes).

 

Coming back to the DPS argument, two marauders, an arsenal merc and an AoE-adjusted Lethality sniper pulling about 2400-2450 effective DPS. From my previous post, you would have needed 1.2k tank DPS to clear the boss with 2467 effective DPS (with three bubbles). Your tanks weren't doing anywhere close to that because their DPS uptime was very low. They weren't in the parser though, so I can only surmise actual numbers. An enrage at 42% meant that you were missing 1526 DPS. That's 763 on both tanks (or perhaps more realistically, 300 from each of the tanks and 231 from each of the DPS). I honestly have no idea what the tank DPS uptime was, but it looked very low (especially since one of them was dead).

 

You're an idiot. There are 3 bosses. You can clearly see the single target DPS. I've talked to them, they single target only because of the G-D MECHANIC WHERE YOU KILL YOUR TANKS IF YOU ATTACK THE OTHER BOSSES

 

I'm glad you feel the need to resort to ad hominem. I believe that the synergy mechanic has been buffed, but by how much? Do the stacks build faster now? (in HM, you can practically hold them in Orbital Strike for the entire life of Hierad without seeing a single stack) I'll say this again: give me evidence and I'll believe you. So far, all you've done is insult me and my guild and then continue to argue strictly from the authority of being a top-tier guild.

[Aerro]

All these silly arguments.

 

I can promise you one thing, it will get adjusted, and imho probably sooner than later.

 

I'm more than willing to bet that it won't be adjusted. It took them forever to adjust NiM Kephess (EC). That was ridiculous. This time, people are doing ~400-500 less DPS than their class is capable of and claiming the content is impossible. You can throw numbers around all you want, but underperforming is more of a reason than blaming the content itself. You can continue arguing with each other about it, even though neither of you have the capability of fixing whatever you feel is wrong, or you can work on improving yourself. I suggest the latter.

 

Coming back to the DPS argument, two marauders, an arsenal merc and an AoE-adjusted Lethality sniper pulling about 2400-2450 effective DPS. From my previous post, you would have needed 1.2k tank DPS to clear the boss with 2467 effective DPS (with three bubbles). Your tanks weren't doing anywhere close to that because their DPS uptime was very low. They weren't in the parser though, so I can only surmise actual numbers. An enrage at 42% meant that you were missing 1526 DPS. That's 763 on both tanks (or perhaps more realistically, 300 from each of the tanks and 231 from each of the DPS). I honestly have no idea what the tank DPS uptime was, but it looked very low (especially since one of them was dead).

 

I feel as if this further validates my point. This individual (regardless if they are doing the content or not) if fully capable of doing math. Did you know the top theory crafters in WoW actually don't progress through content? Math is math. There is no way of changing that or gaining an advantage because you are doing the content. Math won't change.

 

As suggested, only 231 DPS would be needed from each of the DPS (of course some from the tanks too). You are currently doing (lets be lenient and halve the value) ~250 less than an identical class on my parser. That difference makes up for your portion of the DPS and a little of the next persons. If everyone were to improve then getting through this content would actually be possible. 200 DPS? You realize thats not much. If you minimize your excessive movement. Remove mistakes on mechanics, you're golden! Seriously, I would be happy if I were you because you guys at least know the problem at hand. Mistakes cause wipes. You can't have multiple mistakes and complain you didn't defeat the boss. Just fix it and you get loot!

Edited June 13, 2013 by Aerro

[FridgeLM]

No, but you have a lot of unnecessary movements as well as the rest of your other DPS. There is no reason to jump and attack me because I simply pointed out something that is easily fixed. You *can* push our more DPS since our snipers are doing 500 DPS more than you. The fights are identical in terms of mechanics. If anything you have to move MORE as a 16. Spreading in P1 = more movement in 16. There are more puddles in 16 in both P2 and 3, etc.

 

Apparently you think the video was made as like, a highlight of our performance rather than a demonstration of the fight's impossibility given current gear levels.

 

You're welcome to pour over the past broadcast at http://www.twitch.tv/fridge_sa/b/416034258 if you want to see better examples of my/our dps (2900-3000 parses etc).

 

That's not what this thread is about. This thread was created in the hopes of getting a developer response to something clearly broken - something you have not experienced. The two raid sizes offer a far more varied experience than you seem to be aware of.

 

We didn't create the topic for 16 man because we can't speak for 16 man.

[Baxeg]

We beat it before the 2nd.

 

 

you telling me you can kill herad in 60s?

 

if you can why you didnt kill all of them

[Astarica]

The problem with theorycraft is that they usually assume players are 100% perfect, ignoring that the chance of having all 8 players play 100% perfect is an astronomically small number. Nobody is close to 100% perfect and in generaly any mistake cascades to the entire raid, so the effort required is exponential to the number of players. Further, people tend to confuse the fact that if you try enough times, one of those times your players will be more perfect than other times just due to sheer chance. It's not because your players suddenly learned to be more perfect than before. Most likely your best attempt is just the one where the RNG happened to be most favorable to you, and that's hardly something you can count on. If Olok the Shadow can only be beaten with an ideal setup of initial droid placement, then the encounter isn't balanced unless the point is that you should just keep on resetting the board until you get that ideal setup.

 

Likewise it's almost certain this encounter is beatable if you have every RNG break went your way and everyone plays 100% perfect. But why should this be the requirement? What if the RNG doesn't go your way? Do you just say: "Sorry guys this mechanism targeted soandso and now we're all dead, let's try again and hope this mechanism targets theotherguy instead!" Similarly, saying '100% perfect on everyone' sounds cool, but it's not something that can be accomplished by skill because nobody is 100% perfect all the time. Until humans can be replaced by bots, perfection is the product of RNG. Each of your players has some % to be perfect, but even if they're say perfect 90% of the time, there's only a 43% chance that the entire raid will be perfect (0.9^8), and honestly someone that perfect only shows up on theorycraft.

[Aerro]

That's not what this thread is about. This thread was created in the hopes of getting a developer response to something clearly broken - something you have not experienced. The two raid sizes offer a far more varied experience than you seem to be aware of.

 

I'm not speaking for 16man either. I'm justifying the difficulty of 8man. Read my previous post. Just a few simple tweaks and you guys can down the fight. You had a 42% enrage and now you're on the forums complaining that its too hard.

 

Like I've said before: Raid size does not determine DPS. You have more room to roam around... yet you guys huddle up on each other. Your top DPS is barely above some of our lowest. That has nothing to do with raid size. Also, broken mechanics? Try NiM 16 EC back at release. While everyone was still working on tanks, 8man was doing 2 hour runs. Yet instead of complaining we persevered and downed it (though it was 3sec after enrage on our 77th attempt). We didn't ask for a nerf, we adjusted. We had some crazy off the wall ideas that gave us our kill. Those same ideas can actually help you- but I'd rather you guys figure it out yourselves. Just take the time to improve yourselves instead of blame content.

 

42% enrage. That is just a little over 200 more dps from everyone. That is nothing when we're all capable of much more.

you telling me you can kill herad in 60s?

 

if you can why you didnt kill all of them

 

Because we /stucked since we lost a tank. Mechanics, bro. Mistakes can't happen in Nightmare. If you make mistakes, expect a wipe. Its not forgiving, so I don't understand what the confusion is.

 

Playing without mistakes is possible. We've done it for YEARS. I've been with a few top 20 guilds in WoW and you literally have to play perfectly during progression. Someone making a mistake can instantly be a wipe. H ToT25 was like that. If DPS died, you weren't beating enrage. We didn't go and complain to Blizzard that it was too hard, we went and fixed the problem and downed it.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Aerro

[FridgeLM]

I'm not speaking for 16man either. I'm justifying the difficulty of 8man. Read my previous post. Just a few simple tweaks and you guys can down the fight. You had a 42% enrage and now you're on the forums complaining that its too hard.

 

You don't get to justify it if you haven't experienced it. Go do 8 man and come tell us your experience. I will be very surprised if they manage similar numbers because, as others and I have indicated, the experience is very different from 16 man.

[countpopeula]

I'm glad you feel the need to resort to ad hominem. I believe that the synergy mechanic has been buffed, but by how much? Do the stacks build faster now? (in HM, you can practically hold them in Orbital Strike for the entire life of Hierad without seeing a single stack) I'll say this again: give me evidence and I'll believe you. So far, all you've done is insult me and my guild and then continue to argue strictly from the authority of being a top-tier guild.

 

I'll record our next attempts just for you big guy. When I hear our tanks yelling "*** JUST HIT ME SO HARD" on the first 3 attempts and then we obeyed the synergy mechanic and it stopped happening, I tend to run with the fact it can't be ignored anymore.

 

I've insulted you, not your guild. You're insulting your guild by feeling the need to say they're top-tier and yet haven't gotten to the fight, done the fight, and you're arguing napkin math with people who have wiped on it for hours after lawlstomping all content this game has to offer on a 100% basis.

[TenderDeath]

I'm not speaking for 16man either. I'm justifying the difficulty of 8man. Read my previous post. Just a few simple tweaks and you guys can down the fight. You had a 42% enrage and now you're on the forums complaining that its too hard.

 

At which point in time, reading your combat logs or timer, did 16m enrage for you?

[Aerro]

You don't get to justify it if you haven't experienced it. Go do 8 man and come tell us your experience. I will be very surprised if they manage similar numbers because, as others and I have indicated, the experience is very different from 16 man.

 

This right here is a clear indication of why 8man guilds are limiting themselves. The mechanics are not different. What is different? The enrage? The only complaint is that you have to do more damage. Thats it. Such a simple task that you can overcome if you use the time to improve.

 

I watched your stream. During the beginning of the fights, you are barely (rarely) breaking 3k. That is the turret portion of the fight. That is when you can just go all out. You have orbitals rolling and everything, yet you're at 3k? At the beginning of the fights, we're topping off around 4-5k. That has nothing to do with raid sizes. Going into 8man doesn't suddenly nerf your DPS by 20%. Do you get a debuff that does that? If so, then sure that is cause for complaints.

 

However, you are not. Your DPS can be improved but your ego is stopping you from doing that. You are quick to jump the gun and smart off to anyone who even recommends increasing your DPS. An average of 2400 over 5min is what it should have been in the previous tier. You know you're better than that, you've done it in HM SV, when movement was indicative to success! You put up your own barrier and now you're hurting because of it.

 

At which point in time, reading your combat logs or timer, did 16m enrage for you?

 

Its 6:45.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Aerro

[countpopeula]

We concluded that the person who said 2300 DPS is required is a moron and didn't take into account the NiM mechanics.

 

EDIT: On top of blatantly making up numbers and percentages. You should read countpopulea's replies, they are pretty informative earlier on.

 

Yeah I've digressed into calling out idiots :/. We've said everything there is to be said, if they cared or were competent they'd read this from page one and see all the points and go from there.

[Aerro]

napkin math with people who have wiped on it for hours after lawlstomping all content this game has to offer on a 100% basis.

 

Napkin math is what drives the WoW raiding scene, by the way. Also, lawlstomping HM SV has no bearing on how they will fair in NiM TFB. HM SV proved no challenge and plenty of their own guild members were on the forums telling Bioware that it wasn't up to their expectations. So lawlstomping something easy means that they can do the same thing in something difficult? Thats like saying just because a Division 3 team won a championship, they can go in and dominate Division 1, because you know, they're champions.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Aerro

[FridgeLM]

IAt the beginning of the fights, we're topping off around 4-5k.

 

If you're breaking 4-5k dps at the beginning of the fight, something I'll note you aren't providing evidence for, the tanks are positioning the other bosses in aoe (orbitals) and ignoring the synergy mechanic, indicating that that portion of 16 man is trivially easy compared to 8 man.

 

Wow, it's almost like what I've been saying the last few posts is true, and 16 and 8 man are not as similar as you seem to think.

 

Do you actually think getting more green motes is worse for dps? I would kill for more green motes in 8 man so that we could clear doom faster.

 

If you watched the stream you'd notice that I'm not just sitting around with my thumb up my butt and that almost every global is being used efficiently, save for when I'm trying not to lock myself out of rolling to avoid lightning field damage. If your players are doing more damage, it's because the mechanics (and logistics) of 16 man are easier and are allowing them to.

Edited June 13, 2013 by FridgeLM

[countpopeula]

Napkin math is what drives the WoW raiding scene, by the way. Also, lawlstomping HM SV has no bearing on how they will fair in NiM TFB. HM SV proved no challenge and plenty of their own guild members were on the forums telling Bioware that it wasn't up to their expectations. So lawlstomping something easy means that they can do the same thing in something difficult? Thats like saying just because a Division 3 team won a championship, they can go in and dominate Division 1, because you know, they're champions.

 

Napkin math is what people do when they either can't down the boss and have nothing better to do or aren't at a computer and have time to dedicate to optimization in my gaming experience. I plugged numbers into the formulae for 2.0 to figure out the baseline for acceptable Crit rating - Power break even for optimum Mara/Sent DPS. My math showed that you wanted ~250-300 crit rating for Combat/Carnage, 0 crit for Watchman/Anni, and ~75-100 crit for Focus/Rage. In the end, I parsed significantly higher using +0 Crit rating in all 3 specs. Napkin math is worthless until tested, there's not even an argument there.

 

I never referenced HM S/V as our only crucible. The guild has multiple top 10 finishes for previous raids, including a World 3rd Warstalker title. We were US 2nd for S/V, we were content with server first since most couldn't take off multiple days to level multiple alts to legacy gear to the level required to clear 8man DMS.

[Aerro]

If you're breaking 4-5k dps at the beginning of the fight, something I'll note you aren't providing evidence for, the tanks are positioning the other bosses in aoe (orbitals) and ignoring the synergy mechanic, indicating that that portion of 16 man is trivially easy compared to 8 man.

 

Wow, it's almost like what I've been saying the last few posts is true, and 16 and 8 man are not as similar as you seem to think.

 

Do you actually think getting more green motes is worse for dps? I would kill for more green motes in 8 man so that we could clear doom faster.

 

If you watched the stream you'd notice that I'm not just sitting around with my thumb up my butt and that almost every global is being used efficiently, save for when I'm trying not to lock myself out of rolling to avoid lightning field damage. If your players are doing more damage, it's because the mechanics of 16 man are easier and are allowing them to.

 

If you watch my stream you'll notice it, but you're too naive to believe that anyone can outperform your ragtag crew. Also, *I* am hitting 4800 at the beginning of the encounter... I'm a Merc. I am not using an Orbital (I would if I could). Our bosses can't be positioned to get hit by the orbitals either, so its just the same. Acting arrogant and condescending doesn't further prove anything you are saying.

 

The fact stays the same: Your DPS isn't sufficient and that is the main complaint in this thread. Now, its one thing if you guys are barreling out DPS and still wiping... but its another if you're all underperforming per the requirements. Top DPS of 2400 is low. Very low. There is no argument that will somehow change that into a positive. When Lightning fields happen, you move unnecessarily. Instead of being pre-positioned (and turreting), you're next to some people and you choose to literally run through someone to get away from him. Why? He could have moved instead. He could have spent 2 seconds moving instead of your 5 seconds. That is 3 seconds of extra DPS time. Now, add up all the minor adjustments you can make and boom, suddenly you're doing 100 more DPS (just using a number). Minor things add up.

 

Also, we need all of our puddles that are dropped, however they are always down for a period of time where it makes movement difficult. If we position them improperly, that is DPS who can't even be in range of the bosses. If we eat a puddle, the doomed target will die. Again, DPS has nothing to do with 8 or 16 since the mechanics are identical.

 

Making excuses to somehow justify lower DPS is incredibly childish. How about you at least prove me wrong and take my advice? Spend time working on how to maximize performance instead of making excuses why you can't. An 8man guild will down it. Its going to happen, because people won't just sit around and soil themselves because they're mad. People will go at it anyways because, why not? It doesn't hurt to try, does it?

 

Napkin math is worthless until tested, there's not even an argument there.

 

You can't do proper simulations with napkin math. You need thousands of simulations in order to properly display a result. Strictly putting in numbers and saying "oh hey look!" isn't simulating. Unfortunately, no true sims exist for SWTOR so we're at the mercy of Bioware, but regardless trying to claim napkin math is poor because you plotted out the difference between crit and power just shows that lack of knowledge and general awareness of the truth.

 

I suggest investigating ElitistJerks and seeing real theory crafting at work. Yes, they can use simulators so getting 10,000 iterations proves a point. Neither of us plan on sitting at a dummy doing thousands of 5min parses, but regardless, you can't do that on a piece of paper so whatever attempts you made were moot.

 

The point still stands that DPS can clearly be pushed out more, and until you prove otherwise, its kind of funny watching people complain something is too hard while showing results of poor performance. You're free to complain all you want, but the data that Bioware has surely outweighs any evidence that you provide.

 

We were US 2nd for S/V,

 

That is like saying you were world first for the new HM Flashpoints. It has no bearing to current content. SV was extremely carebearish. With most guilds one shotting (if not, 2 shotting) bosses... its a bit ridiculous to even consider SV as any sort of progression. People had it cleared before most guilds even started their natural raid times. If you didn't notice, a lot of the core progression guilds didn't bother getting on to clear content that provided no challenges other than typing in your password and running to the instance.

 

Showing that HM SV was cleared does not provide any value to the thread or any sort of justification as to why DPS is low. Now it seems people are just flinging mud hoping something will stick. Dps is low. That is the entirety of the thread. /discuss.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Aerro

[Gyronamics]

Get some sleep.

 

I want to see that stream and no dozy merc napping halfway through it.