Terror From Beyond (NiM) 8-Man Progression Tracking

[TenderDeath]

If the progression race had a ruleset and was relegated then more then just post we'll track it is competitive. Currently it does have competitive merits but its not outright fully competitive to determine the best of the best in the field.

 

Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't really understand your first sentence. The best indicator, so far, has been the guild streams that everyone has been posting. This, in my opinion, has made this a competition and critique, providing a fairly robust feedback system in itself. This is a good thing.

[odawgg]

I would like to point out that it is possible to get the achievement for killing dread guards without actually killing them. All you have to do is kill each boss so waste a pull and burn kelsara to death first or even second and you can obtain the achievement.

 

I'm glad you've come full circle with how to cheat the system

[RikuvonDrake]

for those claiming linear progression I guess that means you cannot or will not enter nightmare SV until you have full cleared nightmare tfb then right? Cya on july 9th...oh wait you will still be on dread guards.

 

I wouldn't mind that, I have really been looking forward to a major challenge and that is exactly what the Dread Guard dudes are, thought I hope that that the best guilds will be able to beat the boss before new content. But I think most of the people writing about linear progression are talking about individual operation

Edited June 13, 2013 by RikuvonDrake

[Iggyemu]

Updated the spreadsheet before we venture out into TFB again.

 

Once again I want to reiterate that I am continuing to track D&T's progress. At this point me doing that doesn't mean anything. I just don't want to dig through the thread again looking for screenshots. This is a community decision and judging from the feedback in this thread I can see where most are leaning. But I have to discuss possible solutions with a few people.

 

Once that's done I will present it and we'll go forward.

[insaneric]

First off i'd like to say I haven't read the whole thread and apologise if my suggestion has already been raised.

 

I feel like the Death & Taxes have made a bad decision on skipping the boss (bad for the community and the progression mentality) and should be punished in the scoring,I also feel that full disqualification is too sever.

 

So here's my suggestion on how to score them: when they go in and successfully clear dread guards (probably next week) they get that time for that fight and any of the later fights that they have also cleared receive the same time as the dread guards clear.

[e_nk_ay]

First off i'd like to say I haven't read the whole thread and apologise if my suggestion has already been raised.

 

I feel like the Death & Taxes have made a bad decision on skipping the boss (bad for the community and the progression mentality) and should be punished in the scoring,I also feel that full disqualification is too sever.

 

So here's my suggestion on how to score them: when they go in and successfully clear dread guards (probably next week) they get that time for that fight and any of the later fights that they have also cleared receive the same time as the dread guards clear.

 

I'm still struggling to understand what the "progression" mentality is, and where everyone is getting the "linear progression only" from. It was not stated in the OP and I've never encountered an MMO where this was expected and penalized for not being adhered to. I say give us discounted points for what we kill after DG, fine, but to say we don't deserve to kill the bosses after DG is ludicrous. We still have to pull the encounters, execute, and kill them.

Edited June 13, 2013 by e_nk_ay

[Quintain]

I'm still struggling to understand what the "progression" mentality is, and where everyone is getting the "linear progression only" from. It was not stated in the OP and I've never encountered an MMO where this was expected and penalized for not being adhered to. I say give us discounted points for what we kill after DG, fine, but to say we don't deserve to kill the bosses after DG is ludicrous. We still have to pull the encounters, execute, and kill them.

 

I think the issue is that other groups do not want to give up and skip the DG. I personally don't think skipping the boss is in the spirit of this friendly competition. While your group may be able to down the rest of the bosses, it does not mean anything if the rest of the top-tier guilds have decided not to skip the DG. Obviously it is not what Bioware intended, since you would not get your 2-hour NM title with this strat, and I think that is the guideline we should follow.

 

Just my two cents,

Quintain

Night's Radiance

Jung Ma

[Airwolfe]

No one is going to beat it and if they do, I doubt it was meant to happen. I mean the game is supposed to be geared for full 72 with ANY group composition. As it is, you need four snipers to roll through lightning field just to beat it and even then I don't think it's enough. It's bugged, the enrage or the HP need to be nerfed. Hopefully the sooner, because I don't mind the higher healthpool.

 

Before you cry *NERF*..give it a month. It's been one day - seriously, this game has been entirely too easy since launch, especially on 8 man (NiM EC 16 was the only real challenge this game has ever seen). If no one in the world is able to beat a fight for a month, only then can anyone going for a "Nightmare" fight complain that it needs a nerf.

This is Nightmare, not ez mode 'everyone should able to clear this with their weekend warrior buddies'.

[ancksunamur]

http://i.imgur.com/bTlZOS9.jpg

[insaneric]

I'm still struggling to understand what the "progression" mentality is, and where everyone is getting the "linear progression only" from. It was not stated in the OP and I've never encountered an MMO where this was expected and penalized for not being adhered to. I say give us discounted points for what we kill after DG, fine, but to say we don't deserve to kill the bosses after DG is ludicrous. We still have to pull the encounters, execute, and kill them.

Just taken another look at how the spreadsheet works and see no problem with a points reduction (either flat or %) on all kills after a skipped boss. I initially thought that the scoring was based off time after first guild clear rather than just rankings.

[Carlenux]

this is from our harbringer leaderboard, they too lazy to do this... not sure if everythings verified but have two guilds that started almost 2 hours before us

server: The Harbringer.

Guild Name: Haterade

Empire

NiM TFB

Writhing Horror

12:02 pm CST

http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/...gHorrorNiM.jpg

 

Decimation

Empire

Writhing Horror

TFB - NiM 8 Man

10:24:50 PDT (12:24:50 CDT)

6/12/2013

http://imgur.com/EjeI5Zq

Achievement: http://i.imgur.com/u7hcC5N.jpg

 

I dont care if you validate or not this kills lol just posting since they killed earlier in our servers, guess our servers taking it serious early in the morning haha.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Carlenux

[e_nk_ay]

Death and Taxes

http://www.dtguilds.com

Prophecy of the Five

USA - East

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7785/ijmn.jpg

Kephess the Undying

 

Death and Taxes

http://www.dtguilds.com

Prophecy of the Five

USA - East

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/418/owuz.jpg

Nightmare TFB

 

Nightmare TFB is bugged. Killed last tentacle and when boss entered tantrum he went to 2% and we killed it. Not sure if it's a bug or working as intended, but inclined to go with the former.

[Askesis]

My two cents:

 

Death and Taxes made the decision to skip Dread Guard and clear the rest. Fine. Some people disagree with it, others agree. It's a matter of personal opinion, and I don't think there's a "right answer".

 

But to disqualify them from the rankings? I think that's wrong. People make the point that they get the additional gear from the other bosses that might help them down it first next week.

 

They are absolutely correct, but here's the thing: it's only known because they posted it here. How is there a way to verify that other guilds haven't done the same? Aside from requiring a video recording from every member in the fight in which they show their gear, how does one prove they haven't done it?

 

Then there's the alt issue. What if a group each has 12 alts and farm Writhing Horror 12 times and sends all the gear to their mains? Do you disqualify those guilds too? What if that group runs 16-man NiM 11 times, sends all the gear to their 8-mains and then clear 8-man Dread Guard this week decked out in all 75's? An extreme example, yes, but I'm sure there have already been guilds that have done things like this, to a lesser extent. Where do you draw the line, and how do you prove it?

 

I think to eliminate them from the rankings would be unfair. Change future ranking procedures in the future, if you wish, but don't penalize them for doing something that wasn't prohibited by the rules.

[RakeshZeal]

My two cents:

 

Death and Taxes made the decision to skip Dread Guard and clear the rest. Fine. Some people disagree with it, others agree. It's a matter of personal opinion, and I don't think there's a "right answer".

 

But to disqualify them from the rankings? I think that's wrong. People make the point that they get the additional gear from the other bosses that might help them down it first next week.

 

Even playing fields, is fair. Exploiting Broken game systems is not. People that chose not to exploit were shorted by a bioware mis-sight that allowed skipping content. I believe the only salvagable and legitiment "World First" claim would be the title run. 'Nuff Said.

 

On another note, its sad bioware would release content with a bugged final boss.

[FridgeLM]

Even playing fields, is fair.

 

This situation is by definition an even playing field. Just saying.

[Iggyemu]

Updated. I have converted any screenshots without UTC time stamps to UTC time based on your server time zone. I am only doing it for the first boss and yes it's not as accurate and will be marked unverified.

 

Please take your screenshots going forward with the UTC time-stamp present. Instructions are in the original post..

[KaboomzZz]

The kills were livestreamed, the strats are available for all for viewing. You cannot say the playing field is uneven, in any way possible.

[Ivaed]

Skipping DGs is equivalent to giving up on the fight. That isn't raid progression. There are many guilds on the forums here that are competing for Server/World First. For D&T to roll through and skip content that they feel is too difficult for them to complete as a guild, and then come onto the forums claiming server/world firsts on the rest of the bosses because they wussed out on the hardest fight in the place, is disrespectful to everyone here trying to down the raid in a legitimate fashion.

 

And BTW... Suckafish got Kel'sara down to 10% tonight, I saw the attempt on their livestream. The fight is more than possible for a solid group of raiders who play it to perfection. I wager that we will see a kill before the end of the week.

[e_nk_ay]

Skipping DGs is equivalent to giving up on the fight. That isn't raid progression. There are many guilds on the forums here that are competing for Server/World First. For D&T to roll through and skip content that they feel is too difficult for them to complete as a guild, and then come onto the forums claiming server/world firsts on the rest of the bosses because they wussed out on the hardest fight in the place, is disrespectful to everyone here trying to down the raid in a legitimate fashion.

 

Yes because the "community" for SWTOR (the same 15 people posting in this thread) feel that "linear progression" is the only type of progression allowed.

 

And lol @ people in your guild saying they will try to get us banned for EXPLOITING? Are you kidding me? Swapping HM to Nightmare is NOT exploiting, and in fact is common practice in the most popular MMO in the world.

 

Holy pettiness. I hope you aren't like this in real life.

Edited June 14, 2013 by e_nk_ay

[Askesis]

The kills were livestreamed, the strats are available for all for viewing. You cannot say the playing field is uneven, in any way possible.

 

But, to be fair, just because the playing field is even doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. If there was a certain spot that everyone could stand that makes the bosses bug out and do nothing, would everyone be on the same playing field? Yes. Does that mean that's the way people should do the fight? No.

 

For me, can I blame Death and Taxes for doing what they did? No, I can't. They conceded they weren't going to down Dread Guard this week, so they decided to try the other bosses to gear up their toons. I don't see anything really wrong with it, and our guild was considering (but didn't/haven't yet) done it.

 

And how do we know a guild hasn't done exactly that (skipped Dread Guard, cleared more/all of TFG) on an alt group, shipped the gear to their mains, and are using said gear to try and clear Dread Guard? I'm willing to bet the there are goups that have done precisely that (or are in the process of doing it) At least they posted about it in the open.

 

Back to alts, is it fair that some groups may have multiple alt groups to gear up their mains faster, while others don't? Should a person really have to level 10+ alts and run 10+ groups a week to compete with a group that DOES decide to do that? The gearing system (the legacy gear, to be specific) is a big problem in this respect, even though it is convenient to us when we want to use it.

 

The biggest issue, though, is the fact that HM and NIM share the same lockout. Ideally, they would be on separate lockouts. At the very minimum, one you kill a boss in HM or NIM, you should be restricted to that mode for that lockout for the week.

 

If it weren't for those two issues caused by the Devs, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Askesis

[Ivaed]

Yes because the "community" for SWTOR (the same 15 people posting in this thread) feel that "linear progression" is the only type of progression allowed.

 

And lol @ people in your guild saying they will try to get us banned for EXPLOITING? Are you kidding me? Swapping HM to Nightmare is NOT exploiting, and in fact is common practice in the most popular MMO in the game.

 

Holy pettiness. I hope you aren't like this in real life.

 

I Hope you and your guild enjoy the very little respect anyone had for D&T in the raiding community now being completely gone. That is all I have to say on the matter.

[KaboomzZz]

Skipping DGs is equivalent to giving up on the fight. That isn't raid progression. There are many guilds on the forums here that are competing for Server/World First. For D&T to roll through and skip content that they feel is too difficult for them to complete as a guild, and then come onto the forums claiming server/world firsts on the rest of the bosses because they wussed out on the hardest fight in the place, is disrespectful to everyone here trying to down the raid in a legitimate fashion.

 

And BTW... Suckafish got Kel'sara down to 10% tonight, I saw the attempt on their livestream. The fight is more than possible for a solid group of raiders who play it to perfection. I wager that we will see a kill before the end of the week.

 

Try being a part of a guild like Death and Taxes for 10 years and then talk to me about being disrespected. Do you know what kind of effort it takes to run a guild in multiple games all successful?; all competitive? I can tell you stories involving devs, and fellow members that would blow your mind; fellow members selling in-guild strategies for $25,000 to brady games, deals for members falling through and sponsors disappearing; guild accounts getting hacked just because of being in the spotlight; the list is endless.

 

Take a step back and realize that we kill bosses. Its what we do. After 10 years and getting heat in every game, every year, every kill, from hordes of neck-beards all chiming in, rubbing their musky necks together gurgling on mt. dew, for ten years. We really don't care about these troll posts - here is the bottom line:

 

Goodluck on your progression, hold yourself back because of e-morals if you really want. We kill bosses.

Edited June 14, 2013 by KaboomzZz
e-mortals!

[paowee]

lol why are some members of death and taxes trying to justify what they did.

 

The people you are posting your comments to, in this forums, understand that you are (literally) world 1st on the NiM mode kill of the last boss of NiM TFB.

 

The people you are posting your comments and thread to, also understand, that the instance was swapped to Hard mode to get past NiM DG, which lead to progressing into Op ix and Kephess and TFB in NiM mode.

[Ivaed]

We kill bosses.

 

Actually you skip the hard bosses and kill the easy ones.... It's cool we get why you did it.

[e_nk_ay]

I Hope you and your guild enjoy the very little respect anyone had for D&T in the raiding community now being completely gone. That is all I have to say on the matter.

 

That's ok, I'm fine with Tempest being petty and butt hurt per usual. Thanks for addressing my initial point. Linear progression only! Star Wars is the wave of the future, never mind the precedents set in the MMORPG community for the past several years.