NMTFB and NMSV Ops Progression

[Denchet]

I like the rules but this pug thing could be a little lighter due to a player in the guild could have an alt in a friends guild and be using that alt in the run would make the team suffer even though his main is part of the raid team.

 

You might ask why isn't he on the main toon they could have many reasons.

Explained already.

Quick question on pug rules. If a member of my guild has an alt in another guild and that alt is part of our guild does it count as a guild kill? (probably only relevant for us on 16 man). I can see both sides of it since it's hard to verify/toon truly not in guild, but it's also not a pug. Worth getting clarity in advance.

 

Good question. That will count as a guild kill, as long as you can prove it. Just have them post a picture of their legacy window if anyone tries to challenge the legitimacy of your kill.

 

For example, lets say I had an alt creatively named Denchetalt. Lets assume this alt is in Chatos Paladins. If Tatooine Royal Navy then clears content with Denchetalt, they would still get credit, even though Denchetalt is in another guild. To prove it, I would log in on Denchet, open my legacy window, take a screenshot showing that Denchetalt is also my character, and post it here. I hope that makes sense... I know its kind of confusing.

 

For the record, all of my alts are in TRN (or are Imperial and are in Hoth Royal Navy), so I am by no means trying to loosen the alt rules for my own benefit or anything.

[mastirkal]

Damage wise it was pretty good (i.e. worthy of being NiM) but incredibly badly balanced. Shadow tanks just made it much easier. Spent month and a half running into a wall, recruited a Shadow and cleared in 2 weeks.

 

I can see the PuG rules with a possible exploit but hopefully nobody will do it and there is really now way of preventing it.

 

Also 500k credits says Hatred gets first. Anybody foolish enough to bet against me?

 

Haterade. Both had plenty of time on the pts and honestly it's going to come down to who can get online first. The distinction between which is quicker will be measured in hours and a day or two for most progression teams. It'll be messy seeing as I suspect the difference between 1 and 7 will be less than a week if not a few days. NiM SV will be a great test though as it seems that it can inherit the title of NiM Ops from EC.

Edited June 9, 2013 by mastirkal

[Darth_Dreselus]

Haterade. Both had plenty of time on the pts and honestly it's going to come down to who can get online first. The distinction between which is quicker will be measured in hours and a day or two for most progression teams. It'll be messy seeing as I suspect the difference between 1 and 7 will be less than a week if not a few days. NiM SV will be a great test though as it seems that it can inherit the title of NiM Ops from EC.

 

You are on Sir. (Watch this guy actually be on Hatred's progression team and hinder their progression to get some cash =D)

[WillLongstick]

Damage wise it was pretty good (i.e. worthy of being NiM) but incredibly badly balanced. Shadow tanks just made it much easier. Spent month and a half running into a wall, recruited a Shadow and cleared in 2 weeks.

 

NiM Kephess was fantastically balanced between tank classes. Each tank had its invaluable uses, and its faceplant moments. Your Assassin that was Force Shrouding bleeds and pumping out fantastic AOE threat got melted by Kephess under 60%. The Jugg with the fantastic mitigation, cooldowns, and Intercede on bomb carriers had no grapple and 0 AOE threat on the trenchcutters. The Powertech had the best mitigation for this fight, and a grapple and AOE threat, but it lacked any godlike cooldowns to eat the bleed with. At least from a tanking view point, NiM Kephess has been miles above any other boss in terms of challenge, fun, and cleverness required.

 

It's also nice to see that 1 person's achievement/lockout screenshot doesn't count for a "full guild" kill anymore.

Edited June 9, 2013 by WillLongstick

[Swaption]

Suggestion for rules:

 

In addition to pug kill rules, I think it would be good to "lock" a character on a boss after killing it for a guild. That way, a character wouldn't be able to be in progression of multiple guilds (the problem I think the pug rules are really intended to prevent) just because they might have an alt in the guild.

[Ceades_End_Game]

Actually <Haterade> had 0 time on the pts... but we hope not to dissapoint you.

[IAmViiOLENT]

NiM Kephess was fantastically balanced between tank classes. Each tank had its invaluable uses, and its faceplant moments. Your Assassin that was Force Shrouding bleeds and pumping out fantastic AOE threat got melted by Kephess under 60%. The Jugg with the fantastic mitigation, cooldowns, and Intercede on bomb carriers had no grapple and 0 AOE threat on the trenchcutters. The Powertech had the best mitigation for this fight, and a grapple and AOE threat, but it lacked any godlike cooldowns to eat the bleed with. At least from a tanking view point, NiM Kephess has been miles above any other boss in terms of challenge, fun, and cleverness required.

 

It's also nice to see that 1 person's achievement/lockout screenshot doesn't count for a "full guild" kill anymore.

 

NiM Kephess and NiM Tanks were the best two fights this game has yet had, either through unforgiving mechanics or just pure DPS races. Pre nerf 16m is still undoubtedly the hardest content this game has seen, evidenced by the fact that the only guild that could clear it made every other guild in the world's DPS races look like ***** ****.

[mastirkal]

Actually <Haterade> had 0 time on the pts... but we hope not to dissapoint you.

 

If that's true then, you are directly in line with animosity for trying for one of the top few positions, to which I am a part of and hope to take in the first day or two. Strange though, I had heard both hatred and haterade had cleared it on the pts in roughly 6 hours or so from start to finish. Either way awesome, best of luck.

 

You are on Sir. (Watch this guy actually be on Hatred's progression team and hinder their progression to get some cash =D)

 

I'm on animosity's "progression team". I'm a total try hard.

[Darth_Dreselus]

Your Assassin that was Force Shrouding bleeds and pumping out fantastic AOE threat got melted by Kephess under 60%.

 

Yes he did melt. Until I spent about half an hour on Torhead reading up on Shadow abilities, cds and talents and them just told him when to use which during the fight. Directed my Sents to just alternate Transcendence for defence buff. Made healing a breeze even with the other healer mysteriously dying with about 20% left on Kephess (Guess he stood in a circle don't remember). Hardest bit was healing him through the Trenchies (or rather healing the Slinger who always stole threat).

 

On the other hand I know of a VG who tanked the Trenchies no probs spamming Surge. Imagine that.

 

Still more difficult to heal that anything in 2.0. Solo healing Trasher with a Shadow who sends all his gear to his upcoming VG came somewhat close but provided the other healer doesn't stay on the ledge (don't ask me why) even that would have been healable by a one eyed monkey. (Yes I do use this quite a lot and yes it is not brilliant).

 

NiM DG with 63 hilt should be fun. Especially since I already know that people will go through red circles.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[Denchet]

Suggestion for rules:

 

In addition to pug kill rules, I think it would be good to "lock" a character on a boss after killing it for a guild. That way, a character wouldn't be able to be in progression of multiple guilds (the problem I think the pug rules are really intended to prevent) just because they might have an alt in the guild.

 

Good rule. I'll add it. It'll be up to the community to point out if you see someone break it though. There is no way I'm going to track every single progression character on the server. The only exception will be if the original guild disbands. Don't want anyone getting locked out of a tier because their guilds falls apart.

 

A character becomes "locked" when it gets a kill for a guild. For example, lets say I get a kill with Tatooine Royal Navy on my main, Denchet. The character Denchet is now locked to TRN. If I try and help another guild on Denchet, that kill won't count. The only way to become "unlocked" is if the guild you are locked to disbands. This rule will be loosened two weeks after the raid is cleared in order to allow characters to permanently switch to a different guild. People constantly switching back and forth to different guilds to act as ringers will never be allowed, though. This will obviously be somewhat subjective and the final call is up to me.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Denchet

[Ceades_End_Game]

If that's true then, you are directly in line with animosity for trying for one of the top few positions, to which I am a part of and hope to take in the first day or two. Strange though, I had heard both hatred and haterade had cleared it on the pts in roughly 6 hours or so from start to finish. Either way awesome, best of luck

 

Nah we were gonna go this past wed and clear it, but they took it down. Didn't have time the week before.

[Denchet]

Updated the OP to try and explain my stance on guild kills vs PUG kills. Its gotten way to complicated trying to assign hard and fast rules on what ultimately ends up being somewhat subjective. Run Ops with your guild members, don't use ringers, and you'll be fine. The goal of the guild kill rules is to discourage foul play, not to create hoops to jump through for legitimate guilds trying to show off their progress.

 

The only rule that will absolutely always be enforced is that your screenshots need to show all 8/16 people involved in the kill.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Denchet

[Carlenux]

Haterade. Both had plenty of time on the pts and honestly it's going to come down to who can get online first. The distinction between which is quicker will be measured in hours and a day or two for most progression teams. It'll be messy seeing as I suspect the difference between 1 and 7 will be less than a week if not a few days. NiM SV will be a great test though as it seems that it can inherit the title of NiM Ops from EC.

 

hehe everyone forgetting about select few, they were the best progressed guild with momentum until we catch up... TBH unless they fixed something from pts, its really useless to compare, i agree with NiM SaV, if they dont open pts again, unless we compare "how quick" u killed in 1 day, which is up to discussion (afk, Bio, w/e).... dulfy probably has GW patch that day, its money for her, sosny is out until thurs, ysabel cant log until late, Venezuela is playing World cup qualifying that day, so anakyn and i will pretty much waste 3 hours watching the game, so unless we manage to have a team to log on really early, we will probably start at 7, so anyone starting earlier, now its your chance ... and if they buffed the Ops (thing i am pretty sure they didnt lol), good luck with that .

 

At this point we are debating between trying to use maybe some mix of players just to clear faster, or wait for our best group at night to get a title run, we will see how the progression goes, same with world rankings, pretty sure suckafish will log on early to get US first which is our real direct competition, so might not bother .

 

Also Haterade got good dpsers from Animosty split / obsidian, so they actually have a REALLY good group now, with those dps fill in, select few has an awesome (quiet) team, and momentum was kicking our *** 6/7 content, not sure if NS transfered here from dalborra, so we will have best AU guild as well (or the only one i knew lol). so i think its fair to say harbringer is by far the most competitive / hardest 8 man (not 16, we are a joke, only have 2 guilds lol, compared to Bastion / shadowlands) competition between all servers, so i expect 4-5 guilds clear in 1 day to be at least in the top 15 world ranks.... lets not forget tyranny as well if they manage to have a free schedule .

 

unfortunately compared to other servers, where 1-2 guilds rule the game have all the good players, we have all good players spread between 6-7 guilds lol, i am sure if we mixed that in 3 groups Harbringer would have 1st/4th/5th world ranking easily (giving Suckafish / grey order their respective spots there as well)... but we have 5-6 great guilds competing lol, server competition is actually harder than Worlds ranking .

[Carlenux]

Nah we were gonna go this past wed and clear it, but they took it down. Didn't have time the week before.

 

yeah i have to admit we didnt see haterade on pts.... we saw Select Few, saw tyranny members ( never a full raid), from Empire... but yeah took us 6 hours in total to clear, i already posted above, dulfy.net has everything... 1st boss 1 shot... 2nd boss took us like 1 1./2 hours.. 3rd boss 1 hour... kephess one shot... TFB like 2 hours 2H 1/2... if you pay attention to the video (not sure if dulfy wrote it in the guide, she probably did) so if you read what exactly to do in 2nd and specially at TFB fight to push enrage, thats what actually took us 2 hours to figure out, then it was a simple 1 shot... its just a matter of, strategy, not even a mechanic, you wont wipe more than 2 - 3 times there trust me, if they didnt buff it.... Dguards fight can get REALLY uglier than TFB, tfb is just tight enrage, thats about it...

[Carlenux]

If that's true then, you are directly in line with animosity for trying for one of the top few positions, to which I am a part of and hope to take in the first day or two. Strange though, I had heard both hatred and haterade had cleared it on the pts in roughly 6 hours or so from start to finish. Either way awesome, best of luck.

 

 

 

I'm on animosity's "progression team". I'm a total try hard.

 

i would have to disagree with "no pts testing" = no competition.... simple, HM SaV, we started 1 day after, vs here, and suckafish... we didnt have HM SaV testing ( just 1 sm run) neither we saw videos, most were terribly done streams, and we didnt have guides.... only dulfy had some sneak peek on certain fights, yet we got 1st here, and didnt get 1st US because of that, 1 day late + no pts testing... that was a 2 months old PTS, people tried 2-3-4-5 times the OPS, with premade gear and stuff.... this was a 1 week and half test, most people only cleared once, like us, and difference from us to hm sav PTS testing, is that we have dulfy, and she gains credit from PTS info, so everything thats written in her guides, is 100% true, and is missing nothing (that we know), she ask me / us every part of the strategy, and she does the rest, so its different watching a "stream" than watching a video + reading a detailled perfect strategy on every aspect of the boss fight.... so if you didnt do PTS, and you dont see dulfys info, you are just being dumb lol .

 

i just went there since i never see it lol its my own strategy, to read the NiM TFB guide, to see if she had everything, and basically, the only hard part, the one that took us 2 hours to figure out then one shoted, is written there in BLACK font, like you can not miss this ****, if you wipe knowing that lol, then its your groups dps :S not practice .... D.guards fight is harder, practice may help you a bit, and luck.

[mastirkal]

yeah i have to admit we didnt see haterade on pts.... we saw Select Few, saw tyranny members ( never a full raid), from Empire... but yeah took us 6 hours in total to clear, i already posted above, dulfy.net has everything... 1st boss 1 shot... 2nd boss took us like 1 1./2 hours.. 3rd boss 1 hour... kephess one shot... TFB like 2 hours 2H 1/2... if you pay attention to the video (not sure if dulfy wrote it in the guide, she probably did) so if you read what exactly to do in 2nd and specially at TFB fight to push enrage, thats what actually took us 2 hours to figure out, then it was a simple 1 shot... its just a matter of, strategy, not even a mechanic, you wont wipe more than 2 - 3 times there trust me, if they didnt buff it.... Dguards fight can get REALLY uglier than TFB, tfb is just tight enrage, thats about it...

 

TfB seems like it can be cheesed a bit further with a sin tank in the first phase to relieve stress. Second phase is all on the dps though.

 

Dread guard for those red circles, a sin tank can wait for a leech to run out, get healed and run through a ton of red circles before force shrouding the damage, it also seems snipers can roll through doom and obviously sorcs can **** you bubble, so doom might be trivialized.

 

It will be an interesting afternoon playing around and breaking fights a bit.

[USCG_Davis]

Unfortunately, I wont be able to take Tuesday off, and depending on if I get the night off will determine if APEX goes into it on Tuesday or Wednesday. Good luck to Hatred and Haterade in your server first race. Bring this server a World First

[Carlenux]

TfB seems like it can be cheesed a bit further with a sin tank in the first phase to relieve stress. Second phase is all on the dps though.

 

Dread guard for those red circles, a sin tank can wait for a leech to run out, get healed and run through a ton of red circles before force shrouding the damage, it also seems snipers can roll through doom and obviously sorcs can **** you bubble, so doom might be trivialized.

 

It will be an interesting afternoon playing around and breaking fights a bit.

 

yeah but ssins spike dmg is been really annoying, specially in 16 Man people have been complaining a lot, and we tried a ssin alt to tank NiM SaV trasher (ok, undergeared, a lot) but it wasnt healable, it just wasnt, probably with good gear he would, but i am sure same geared jug / pt would have survived... red circles are really easy to avoid with some coordination i dont see the need of a ssin going thru it, but its not a bad idea... and exploition from the add i guess it works too, dpsing add thru the transition is tricky sometimes... anyways i dont see a Ssin holding 2 regulators (for our strategy) like jug or PT, so i would rather have a better overall tank, than an utility only... Ssins need a 5-6% armor, dmg reduction buff to finish the discussion about ssin tanks everyone is having in pts forums lol.

[Ceades_End_Game]

Sins can hold 2 no problem, do it every week. Just requires the tank to know how to play the class to the fullest and maximize cds. Edited June 10, 2013 by Ceades_End_Game

[mastirkal]

Sins can hold 2 no problem, do it every week. Just requires the tank to know how to play the class to the fullest and maximize cds.

 

This, it's totally possible, the problem is they do need a 5-10% DR buff nonetheless, but as the game goes, we currently are not kings of the hill. Doesn't mean sin tanks are useless or bad tanks, they just have a much higher degree of difficulty to them and need of raid awareness. It's like gearing up any class that is not topping the charts, I know you have a op dps, I suspect you had to put a lot of effort into gearing correctly and using a higher degree of rotations to get to that point. There's no difference between getting high dps numbers on a class people say are underpowered and a tank that needs more effort to get to that point. Sure juggs are kings right now with saber reflect and their smorgasbord of cooldowns, but sins have really freaking good cooldowns not including the most OP cooldown with force shroud that you can use roughly every ~35 seconds. PT's are just doing their thing, they still have the smoothest damage intact, but obviously are still in need of another cooldown to be comparable to juggys.

 

Anyway getting off topic, point is sin tanks are viable. They just require a good player behind it who understands how to abuse their cooldowns and their self heals. They require a higher degree of armor to be maintainable, but that is fine they are the mitigation stat tanks in this game. Forum posts have pointed out to be completely balanced they still need a bit more DR, but that will come in time etc etc.

Edited June 10, 2013 by mastirkal

[Carlenux]

Sins can hold 2 no problem, do it every week. Just requires the tank to know how to play the class to the fullest and maximize cds.

 

you said you haven't done pts, so i dont think you would actually know, for hm anyone can... nim even if its easy, it hits harder anyways, tbh we didnt have prblem with dmg at all, with jug + PT, but everyone was QQing about ssin tanking in the forums, and they are right... it also goes with the strategy, if u holding 2 half time with dps in the middle, or our yellow phase we have 1 tank holding full time regs, even with the boss up... so even with utility and its doable, they just harder to keep up, you said it yourself in hm sav, 2 ssins hindered your progress, and you like many other guilds, feel this problem :S... 1 ssin is fine, its great for utility... 2 ssin tanks just make things harder :S lol.

[Ceades_End_Game]

who the hell said we've ever used 2 sins, ....plz know what your talking about. All our kills were Jug/Sin. And i looked up logs from TFB NIM the regulators only hit 2k more than they do on hm. What people were complaing about is the first boss, SIns take more spikey dmg than normal on him. Additionally due to the random placement, it takes sins longer to get in melee range, so the raid was getting 1-2 more spews than normal. 8 man there were no complaints. Edited June 10, 2013 by Ceades_End_Game

[Carlenux]

This, it's totally possible, the problem is they do need a 5-10% DR buff nonetheless, but as the game goes, we currently are not kings of the hill. Doesn't mean sin tanks are useless or bad tanks, they just have a much higher degree of difficulty to them and need of raid awareness. It's like gearing up any class that is not topping the charts, I know you have a op dps, I suspect you had to put a lot of effort into gearing correctly and using a higher degree of rotations to get to that point. There's no difference between getting high dps numbers on a class people say are underpowered and a tank that needs more effort to get to that point. Sure juggs are kings right now with saber reflect and their smorgasbord of cooldowns, but sins have really freaking good cooldowns not including the most OP cooldown with force shroud that you can use roughly every ~35 seconds. PT's are just doing their thing, they still have the smoothest damage intact, but obviously are still in need of another cooldown to be comparable to juggys.

 

Anyway getting off topic, point is sin tanks are viable. They just require a good player behind it who understands how to abuse their cooldowns and their self heals. They require a higher degree of armor to be maintainable, but that is fine they are the mitigation stat tanks in this game. Forum posts have pointed out to be completely balanced they still need a bit more DR, but that will come in time etc etc.

 

well yeah, u just said what i think, thats exactly what i posted in the pts forums lol, about dps vs tanks... how ppl liked to use PTs / mara / sniper set up, stuff like that...anyways thats not the topic, i am just giving the warning that most of the top ranked guilds (specially in 16 man tbh) were complaining.

[Carlenux]

who the hell said we've ever used 2 sins, ....plz know what your talking about. All our kills were Jug/Sin. And i looked up logs from TFB NIM the regulators only hit 2k more than they do on hm. What people were complaing about is the first boss, SIns take more spikey dmg than normal on him. Additionally due to the random placement, it takes sins longer to get in melee range, so the raid was getting 1-2 more spews than normal. 8 man there were no complaints.

 

you said yourself, i dont have the conversation saved, or i remember the post, it was during the discussion when u said u would trade 1 of your marauders for my healers, and i commented your healers were probably bad if u wanted to change them (comment to one of your healers) and you said the only reason you had trouble was because you were using ssin tanks (2 or 1, cant remember the exact quote)... but i wont argue with you, you do what you want, enlighten us with your superb ssin tanking , no one is saying you cant ssin, tank, they are just harder (i use one, its not really harder, but thats what people say), unreliable and spiky /random than other two... remember the day u said you would never use a jug dps / op dps and other pre 2.0 (you prob will say you didnt lol), now its the time i say i would choose jug / PT over ssins, they are just better for exploits and cheap tricks thats about it .

[axmarcusxa]

We've always ran 2 assassin tanks, and it's never been an issue for our healers (even clearing HM SV in 63s).

 

Like someone said above, tanking as an assassin requires more awareness and proper use of cooldowns.