Dual-Spec: The Necessary (VERY Necessary) Evil

[Zironic]

How about you just pay for the respec... It's not hard.

 

Silence you!!! how dare you bring logic onto our forums!! begone!!!!!!!

 

There are a number of important differences between Dual Spec and standard respeccing, I'll list them for your convenience.

 

1) Dual Spec are as the name implies, limited to 2 specs (Though Rift did 5 I believe), respeccing allows you to spec into anything

2) Dual Specs have low to zero cost to switch between the specs, respeccing tends to have medium to prohibitive costs.

3) Dual Specs can be switched between anywhere, however usually not during combat. You can only respec at certain places

4) Dual Spec SAVES YOUR ABILITY LAYOUT AND KEYBINDINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, respeccing does not.

 

The purpose of respeccing is to allow you to alter your character build, the purpose of Dual Spec is to very quickly switch between two different modes of play, usually PvP/PvE or Tanking or Healing/DPS.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Zironic

[Sagejosh]

I think nescessary is too strong of a word.

 

I also think it's a bit absurd that in a massively multiplayer game, a game specifically designed around you playing with other people, that anyone can truly say they *need* to be completely self-reliant.

 

Make friends. Have fun. And I hope the game weeds out the people who just absolutely refuse to make friends. There are all kinds of other games for those people. MMOs like this should do the exact opposite and encourage social bonding.

 

i just want to throw out this is the most absurd thinking I have ever seen. one of the reason why WoW did so much better then any other MMO is that you can level from 1-max WITHOUT any one else helping you ever. so yes people can say they truly need to be self reliant when it comes to solo quests, its why you have companions.

 

I'm currently a healing spec sorc and i get the same dilemma...it takes longer to level as a healer on planet but healers are a rare commodity when it comes to the flash points so im torn between respecing DPS and not doing the flash points. this kind of sucks because some of the flash points are really enjoyable. one easy solution would be to make duel spec available in late game (30+ or something like that)

[choboon]

i just want to throw out this is the most absurd thinking I have ever seen. one of the reason why WoW did so much better then any other MMO is that you can level from 1-max WITHOUT any one else helping you ever. so yes people can say they truly need to be self reliant when it comes to solo quests, its why you have companions.

 

I'm currently a healing spec sorc and i get the same dilemma...it takes longer to level as a healer on planet but healers are a rare commodity when it comes to the flash points so im torn between respecing DPS and not doing the flash points. this kind of sucks because some of the flash points are really enjoyable. one easy solution would be to make duel spec available in late game (30+ or something like that)

 

Or..you could simply take some longer then others.

I dont see the problem here, you will get to endgame and playing as a healer is nowhere, not nearly, as painful in SWTOR as it was in other games.

There were games where it was literally impossible to solo a healer, yet, behold, there were always healers around.

 

Make it all easier all the time. Please, take out any sense of achievement so we can all change gane every 6 month only to complain about the same crap every time.

 

/end rant

[Zironic]

Or..you could simply take some longer then others.

I dont see the problem here, you will get to endgame and playing as a healer is nowhere, not nearly, as painful in SWTOR as it was in other games.

There were games where it was literally impossible to solo a healer, yet, behold, there were always healers around.

 

Make it all easier all the time. Please, take out any sense of achievement so we can all change gane every 6 month only to complain about the same crap every time.

 

/end rant

 

Do you take enjoyment from watching others have a worse game-play experience or what?

[Mridc]

i just want to throw out this is the most absurd thinking I have ever seen. one of the reason why WoW did so much better then any other MMO is that you can level from 1-max WITHOUT any one else helping you ever. so yes people can say they truly need to be self reliant when it comes to solo quests, its why you have companions.

 

I'm currently a healing spec sorc and i get the same dilemma...it takes longer to level as a healer on planet but healers are a rare commodity when it comes to the flash points so im torn between respecing DPS and not doing the flash points. this kind of sucks because some of the flash points are really enjoyable. one easy solution would be to make duel spec available in late game (30+ or something like that)

This is precisely it.

 

WoW has introduced MMO gamers to a style of gameplay where people are not restricted to group grind sessions when it comes to leveling. Where you could go from 1-max entirely on your own.

 

To enable DPS classes to play solo however, they needed to be given CC abilities to make up for the lack of healing or their general squishyness. Healers on the other hand were stripped off said CC abilities in favour for some light damage so they could pretend to be able to solo.

 

And this is where WoW has ruined the Holy Trinity model forever.

 

Let me explain:

Questing is usually done by killing things. The quicker you are able to kill things, the faster you level. DPS classes in the past could kill things pretty quickly, but due to having little to no CC they were limited to weaker foes or had extremely long downtimes due to health/mana regeneration. Then WoW came and added CC to DPS, added drinks to minimise downtimes. Now DPS classes could kill harder mobs without breaking a sweat.

 

On the other hand, healers and tanks were only very slightly bumped upwards in the DPS department, but have lost other abilities (like the healers' CC/utility). So even though you could in theory solo you were doing so at a very low kill speed AND had a lot of downtime to sit and drink/eat on top of that.

 

Almost every MMO in WoW's wake adapted the same strategy when balancing classes/roles. Tanks and healers with low DPS and low utility and DPS classes with high utility/high DPS.

 

And because people did not need a group to level up any more, everyone started specialising their characters towards one goal - being able to solo efficiently and with the least amount of tedium possible. This is one of the reasons there are no healers and/or tanks.

Basically, if one role is fun to play 95% of the time and the other 2 roles are only fun to play in certain conditions (i.e. you have a group to level with and they're not complete idiots) then you will have an abundance of role 1 and a severe lack of roles 2 and 3.

 

So, TL;DR:

In the old Trinity renditions, everyone was screwed solo. So leveling was a group effort and every role was valuable and represented well enough within the game. WoW changed that around to make ONLY DPS classes fun to play. And due to WoW's success every MMO since then has adopted the same formula.

[Psykhe]

To enable DPS classes to play solo however, they needed to be given CC abilities to make up for the lack of healing or their general squishyness. Healers on the other hand were stripped off said CC abilities in favour for some light damage so they could pretend to be able to solo.

 

That is not strictly true. DPS certainly got some CC, but tanks/healers did not loose theirs really. There is no major advantage or disadvantage in the CC area over the trinity roles.

 

Personally I must say I rather prefer that you can level solo and do not need a group. For once, you can jump right into the action when you have half an hour time.

[Mungo]

A big resounding NO from me on dual speccing.

 

Reason is you can't be good at everything. If you want to PvP then use the PvP tree if you want to do PvE content and not suck then go that route. If you want to change spec pay the price and change but a big no to dual speccs. There should be consequences to a choice in game and having two speccs defeats that consequence.

 

If you want an example at how bad an idea this is look at Rift. If you want dual speccs go play that game.

[Psykhe]

A big resounding NO from me on dual speccing.

 

Reason is you can't be good at everything. If you want to PvP then use the PvP tree if you want to do PvE content and not suck then go that route. If you want to change spec pay the price and change but a big no to dual speccs. There should be consequences to a choice in game and having two speccs defeats that consequence.

 

If you want an example at how bad an idea this is look at Rift. If you want dual speccs go play that game.

 

So the basic gist of your argument is that you should be penalized if you do not always want to do the same thing?

[Zironic]

Almost every MMO in WoW's wake adapted the same strategy when balancing classes/roles. Tanks and healers with low DPS and low utility and DPS classes with high utility/high DPS.

 

So, TL;DR:

In the old Trinity renditions, everyone was screwed solo. So leveling was a group effort and every role was valuable and represented well enough within the game. WoW changed that around to make ONLY DPS classes fun to play. And due to WoW's success every MMO since then has adopted the same formula.

 

While WoW may have been like that in Vanilla and to some extent TBC, they threw out the entire 'Tanks and Healers shouldn't be able to deal damage' out the garbage chute in WotlK onwards.

 

In both WotlK and Cataclysm it was actually faster to level by respeccing into a tanking spec for most hybrids since while their single target DPS suffers, their AoE DPS is actually equal or better then most pure DPS specs which combined with their insane survivability allowed them to vastly overpull and get a vastly better overall killrate.

 

It's actually funny how when you look at the damage meters in most 5-mans the Tank usually ends up at the top.

[sugewise]

I'm not opposed to dual specs, but favor not having them. How expensive is respecing? I'd favor just putting a cap on the cost. If I learned anything from wow and rifts dual spec, if it was possible for my class to tank or heal that is what I got corn holed into doing. Every time I ran a group, without fail.

 

That said, the people for it have good points as well. I wouldn't be mad either way bioware went.

[Zironic]

I'm not opposed to dual specs, but favor not having them. How expensive is respecing? I'd favor just putting a cap on the cost. If I learned anything from wow and rifts dual spec, if it was possible for my class to tank or heal that is what I got corn holed into doing. Every time I ran a group, without fail.

 

That said, the people for it have good points as well. I wouldn't be mad either way bioware went.

 

The major advantages aren't so much the cost, I paid the cost all the time in times of yore. Rather the fact you don't need to spend 10-20 minutes travelling to the main city and back for the respec and redoing all the actionbars again.

 

However your argument is a massive logical fallacy, let's go through your options again.

 

Scenario:

You are a hybrid currently specced as DPS in a group that is lacking a tank/healer. Without Dual Spec you get these two choices:

A: Keep spamming general chat until you get your tank/healer

B: Teleport to Homefleet and respec for a fortune and spend ages redoing all your skills and end up useless after the flashpoint again

 

With Dual Spec you have these options:

A: Have you or any of the other hybrids switch to their dual spec

B: Keep spamming general chat

 

 

In what way exactly are you worse off with the Dual Spec? The only difference is that without Dual Spec, you're -forced- to pick the painful option. Only reason you ended up tanking/healing in Rift is because that way you got to do the instance -now- rather then after another 30 min of general chat spam.

[Dcayd]

So I read about the 14 pages and the last one and let me see if I understand the opponents of dual specs: you don't want it because immersion, wow, player skill, and gearing?

 

Immersion:

This is the stupidest point in the list. Why? It's 100% subjective. Dual spec, something that requires the player to use to even be noticed, someone ruins the atmosphere of the game for you? Guess what? It ruins my immersion when I kill someone in a wz and their character isn't permanently deleted. My suspension of disbelief is ruined when I see 100 other sith with the same exact companion as me. If someone wanted to they could nitpick the game down to not eating, sleeping, or showering. But immersion is only good so long as it does not impede on gameplay or enjoyment.

 

WoW:

This one is twofold. The first is that people want it because WoW had it. False, we want it because it saves time and credits.

The second is that dual-specs somehow led to cookie cutter specs and lack of choice in WoW. Where this came from I have no idea, but it's complete bull. If you actually played wow you'd know that before dualspeccing was added, way back in vanilla, cookie cutters were already around, and in fact was much worse than after. Warrior wanted to raid? Tank. Paladin wanted to raid? Heal. If your class had a healing spec that's what you did in a raid. The only accepted tank was warriors, and if you wanted to dps you had better roll a rogue, Mage, lock, or hunter. And yes, there was a "right way" to spec even back then.

 

Player skill (bads will tank/heal)

This has nothing to do with dual spec. Bads will tank or heal regardless. However, this does limit the number of good players who would tank or heal if they could switch more easily between roles. I tanked all through vanilla wow back when it actually required a tiny bit of skill. Now? I would love to in Swtor, but I play on a pvp server and I pvp alot. I would much rather run around in a pvp spec and just run 4 mans as dps than comp myself in pvp just to tank, or be broke virtually because I have to pay a ton of credits just to tank.

 

And that leaves gearing:

The only valid point one can make against dual specs. If I'm in dps gear trying to tank then I will be at a disadvantage.

 

So one valid point out of the four I keep seeing in this thread. But realistically, if someone has a dedicated spec to tanking or healing then most likely they will also have a set of gear for that role or are tanking/healing content that is rather trivial to begin with.

 

 

Sorry for any grammar or spelling mistakes. I'm on my phone at work. :/

Edited December 24, 2011 by Dcayd

[Axxtasy]

A big resounding NO from me on dual speccing.

 

Reason is you can't be good at everything. If you want to PvP then use the PvP tree if you want to do PvE content and not suck then go that route. If you want to change spec pay the price and change but a big no to dual speccs. There should be consequences to a choice in game and having two speccs defeats that consequence.

 

If you want an example at how bad an idea this is look at Rift. If you want dual speccs go play that game.

 

Here is intellect. Your basic premise is that you should only be able to enjoy one aspect of the game, or pay excessive penalties.

 

Why? Who knows, you give nothing to back up your argument, just some vague reference to Rift (which had a wonderful class system btw). You have no logic, no sound reasoning, only some odd wish for players to have to suffer the "consequences" of daring to want to PvP and PvE?

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are not a serious raider and pvper?

[Atamosk]

no no and no, that idea that I want a toon that can do everything is messing up the game play, choose your path, and live it

 

 

I agree. in wow it was nice to get them, but this is more like a single player game than a multyplayer game at time. so decisions should impact the game. You can already respec. we put to much emphasis on min maxing these games. Wile i agree that for pvp and pve it makes sense to be able to switch specs, sometimes it just makes your decisions that much more important when there is an impact. That made wow less fun in my opinion. You arent really your spec when you can just switch back and forth all the time. Mabey instead they should address pvp in a differnt way like. have seperate skill trees for pvp abilites and you are those two specs, but cloning wow is just silly. I didn't buy this game because i wanted to play wow in a starwars universe.

[CharagonIGN]

Dual-Spec is necessary if you want a character that can both PvP and PvE effectively.

[Nepumuk]

For 12 out of 16 advanced classes, dual spec is not enough. For example, as Sage or Sorcerer, I would prefer to have specs for each role in PvE and PvP:

1. PvE Heal
   
2. PvE Damage
   
3. PvP Heal
   
4. PvP Damage

Therefore, 4 specs should be the minimum number. Of course, any number above 1 is progress, but it would feel a lot like an arbitrary and unnecessary limit on the possibilities to enjoy the game.

 

Rift is an inspiration in the regard of available switchable skill sets, disregarding the horrendous investment of ingame currency necessary to purchase the 5th role.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Nepumuk

[drealmer]

you're all ridiculous! you want to fill multiple roles? roll multiple characters

choose which role you are primarily interested in filling, and do it, that is the point have having various classes in the game

[AelixVII]

If we get dual spec I'm deliberately taking another dps tree so people can't ask me to heal as a Merc, fsk that. :/ Or just pick a PVP spec if I ever get into that... Guess that's more of an excuse, not that I should even need one since that's the problem...

[drealmer]

I am positive they will add it eventually. If not people will just leave and go play games that allows them to play their character however they like.

 

You can play your character however you like in this game. the point being, it is ONE CHARACTER, it's not 2 or 3 or 4, it's 1, so figure out how you want to play your character and play it that way. If you want to change how you're playing, play a different character, because it's different.

 

They allow you to have multiple characters for a reason, so you can play different ways, that's what you want right? To be able to play different ways when one way doesn't suit you? You have that ability, roll another character, and another, and another. Just because people think they're entitled to everything HERE NOW NOW NOW, doesn't mean it makes sense. They might as well just give you a lvl 50 character with all abilities and gear. Wait, why doesn't that work? Because as your character learns skills and gains experience, you gain skill and experience in learning the character. If you suddenly have 25 skills you've never used before, how effectively are you going to use them.

 

If they put in dual-speccing and I'm looking for a group for something, I am going to make sure the people I'm grouped with have played their characters from 1+, I don't want some lazy entitled-feeling juvenile mind thinking he can fill the healing role just because he can quick respec into that role. He doesn't know what the F he is doing. There are a hundred other reasons to NOT allow dual-spec, and the only reason I can think to allow it is because people are lazy.

 

how is that for logic?

[drealmer]

Your basic premise is that you should only be able to enjoy one aspect of the game, or pay excessive penalties.

 

wrong, you can play every single aspect of the game. EVERY SINGLE ONE. It's called playing multiple characters, which they allow (innovative, I know) !!!!

 

People want it because they are lazy.

 

Let me go out on a limb here and guess that you are from the FPS community that has no clue about MMOs.

[drealmer]

we want it because it saves time and credits. /

 

I read this as "we want it because we are lazy and feel entitled to everything we want NOW NOW NOW"

[drealmer]

dual-spec is necessary if you want a character that can both pvp and pve effectively.

 

roll another character

[drealmer]

So the basic gist of your argument is that you should be penalized if you do not always want to do the same thing?

 

no the point is you need to not be lazy and if you want to play multiple roles, you should play multiple characters...it's really quite logical

[drealmer]

Just say NO to posts from players like this. It's coming! Dual Spec. Is Already. Coming. Whining about people wanting options is rather sad and rude.

 

You have all the options available to you. 4 classes on each side, 2 ACs per class. roll. another. character.

[CodeEmperor]

Dual spec is not needed if you want to use another spec , re-spec and that's it. Sure you have to pay for it but that what choices are all about. I hate this whining about not being able to fill both roles for 1 class at the same time. Guess what, your not supposed to.