Fix scoundrel/operative healers now!

[NoTomorrow]

That's some pretty pretetious suggestion about perfectly synchronized CC. You are basically implying that it is ok for healers not die and we should attempt to cap while they are in our vicinity. So you assume that:

 

1. Everybody has it's mezz ready

2. Enemy is not on full resolve

3. Enemy doesn't have CC breaker available

4. Enemy doesn't have stealthers arround to interrupt capping

5. Everyone on your team will perfectly target their CC at individual enemies, all at the same instant of time

6. Somebody from your team is sitting at the node and ready to start capture the instant your enemy is mezzed.

7. There are no enemy AoE dropped on the cap.

8. There are no entrenched enemy snipers.

9. ... and all these need to happen at the same time.

 

Compare this against what enemy team needs to defend the cap:

 

1. Stay alive, no need to kill the enemy

2. Healers keep alive your players, especially other healers, that's extremely easy after 2.0

3. Tanks do your standard job

4. Drop any AoE stuff on the cap.

 

Don't try to make the denfense seem like a harder task to accomplish than the offense.

 

Cross-healing > Focus fire

Edited June 9, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Chemic_al]

I'm so glad my sub expires soon, so I don't have to put up with the bs that is SWTOR PvP anymore. OP/scoundrel heals are so broken right now it isn't even funny. Sad thing is they won't get nerfed.

[Sixsins]

They are broken. The nerf will come. Just give it time.

[Cretinus]

Ya, sure is different from pve xbox shooters on easymode where you can Pew Pew and everything dies right away.

 

There is a distance of several light years between being able to pew-pew op/sc healers and the current situation. And just for the record, the main reason why they are OP is not that they're nearly impossible to kill. It's much rather that they are able to completely ignore focus fire. A op/sc healer under focus fire/stun is still able to be productive in terms of healing others and of keeping the other team from capping. This makes every sort of tactics futile.

People are leaving WZs from the moment they realise that the other team has got a couple of op/sc healers.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Cretinus

[Jorojus]

 

1. Everybody has it's mezz ready

2. Enemy is not on full resolve

3. Enemy doesn't have CC breaker available

4. Enemy doesn't have stealthers arround to interrupt capping

5. Everyone on your team will perfectly target their CC at individual enemies, all at the same instant of time

6. Somebody from your team is sitting at the node and ready to start capture the instant your enemy is mezzed.

7. There are no enemy AoE dropped on the cap.

8. There are no entrenched enemy snipers.

9. ... and all these need to happen at the same time.

 

 

Any good team or pugs with a high game awareness, that know wat to do will do these things or prevent them automatically.

pugs perfectly doing cc is bs I know, but at least a little bit awareness with mezzes and stuns, focusing etc will help out a pug team greatly.

 

The team that has these awareness and know their class / mechanics of other classes the best will always win the game. Simple logic.

 

Btw f.e. point 6 you interpret wrongly. Someone should just start capping, then the other should mezz if you do it the other way around it always fails.

 

Another example for stunning; if you have a dps operative running around in your team and you focus target with this class let him do the cc's first always. He has plenty and on short cd, save your own for the vital finisher f.e. on an operative healer.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Jorojus

[BraaxusKun]

Pretty tired of people still claiming ops are OP etc etc, the fact is, operative defense CDs are bad, shield probe absorbs literally one decent hitting ability if even, and evasion is only 3 - 4 seconds of ranged/melee defense and every class has an ability to use through that, for example, marauder though primarily melee has force scream and smash.

 

Sure, you may not be able to kill an operative because he can stealth and surgical probe under 30%, but when hes using surgical probe or stealthing his team isn't getting any spectacular heals, people argue that ops are OP just because of the scoreboard and how ops get higher overall heals, but thats only because of AOE heals to top off your health, in terms of single target sorceror is more useful because they have higher single target heals, hell look at the world record for highest single heal and you will see what i meant earlier when i said

 

sorc - least survivability - highest single target heals

op - mid

merc - heavy armor/hydraulic over-ride/25% shield/some interrupt immunity

 

world record for biggest single target heal

 

sorc - Anotei (Jar'kai Sword) (13597) http://i.imgur.com/auavhDK.jpg

operative - Braaxus-kun(The Bastion) (10688) http://i.imgur.com/7XeakrJ.jpg

merc - Physco(Jedi Covenant) (9326) http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/...2-30-33-05.png

 

the fact is

 

sorc does least well under pressure - best single target heal

operative is in the middle (sure it can GET AWAY - but he ISNT doing BIG heals while running) - mid single target

mercenary can take the most pressure - lowest single target heal

Edited June 9, 2013 by BraaxusKun

[RayonChristie]

Your argument means nothing if the objective of the warzone is to cap a turret or a door, but the op/scoundrel cannot be killed, what does it matter if he can't heal his teammates, you still can't cap before they get back.

This^^^, wzs are coming down to if you have a pair of op/scoundrel healers your chance of winning is high compared to having any other 2 combinations of healers.

[Mordeguy]

Pretty tired of people still claiming ops are OP etc etc, the fact is, operative defense CDs are bad, shield probe absorbs literally one decent hitting ability if even, and evasion is only 3 - 4 seconds of ranged/melee defense and every class has an ability to use through that, for example, marauder though primarily melee has force scream and smash.

 

Sure, you may not be able to kill an operative because he can stealth and surgical probe under 30%, but when hes using surgical probe or stealthing his team isn't getting any spectacular heals, people argue that ops are OP just because of the scoreboard and how ops get higher overall heals, but thats only because of AOE heals to top off your health, in terms of single target sorceror is more useful because they have higher single target heals, hell look at the world record for highest single heal and you will see what i meant earlier when i said

 

sorc - least survivability - highest single target heals

op - mid

merc - heavy armor/hydraulic over-ride/25% shield/some interrupt immunity

 

world record for biggest single target heal

 

sorc - Anotei (Jar'kai Sword) (13597) http://i.imgur.com/auavhDK.jpg

operative - Braaxus-kun(The Bastion) (10688) http://i.imgur.com/7XeakrJ.jpg

merc - Physco(Jedi Covenant) (9326) http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/...2-30-33-05.png

 

the fact is

 

sorc does least well under pressure - best single target heal

operative is in the middle (sure it can GET AWAY - but he ISNT doing BIG heals while running) - mid single target

mercenary can take the most pressure - lowest single target heal

 

Your oversimplification does not accurately describe the current state of healing in pvp.

 

Mercs do the best under pressure? You mean the worst? Heavy armor means jack squat, they only have interrupt immunity with their shield up and even then anyone smart is just going to stun you or use knockbacks/pulls to pseudo interrupt.

 

Operatives are ahead in healing output AND survivability. They are the least effected healer under pressure, the hardest one to catch and by far the hardest one to deliver a killing blow to. If you think the operative cooldowns are bad you have no idea when to use them, sorry but that is evident.

 

Highest single heal means NOTHING. That's simply fluff. Operative healing strength comes from the fact that it can HoT and toss out instants while on the move. Chasing down an operative trying to "shut them down" is like chasing a dollar bill someone has hooked to a fishing pole. Guess what, the operative is still healing their teammates. Now sure, if you get 2-3 GOOD dps on them you can start to hurt them and their healing output, but in the games that matter (rateds, not unorganized pug zergfests) their team is not going to let you do that.

 

I think a lot of people defending operative heals only play in regular warzones. Even there they are too powerful it's just that most the time if they solo queue no one is going to help them out. Nonetheless good ones still rarely die and keep their team up with ease. Rateds though have become stalemates because the operative healers cannot be taken down. Do you not think it's a problem when a PVP match ends with only 1-2 total deaths and the map objectives are near impossible to complete?

 

I don't have anything against scoundrels or operatives, I have a scoundrel healer myself. It has too big of an effect though, this class is the single most powerful thing in pvp right now by a large margin. It's not fun to not be able to kill anyone in pvp. It's not fun to fight over nodes an ENTIRE match with nothing actually happening. PvP is not working right now how it should because of these healers.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Mordeguy

[Astarica]

Why do people always say 'it's different in rated' when talking about overpowered healing. It's a simple mental exercise. Let's say one team sends 3 DPS to attack your Op healer in regular, and your team possess enough intelligence to know not to attack the guy who is obviously a tank (and in a regular WZ sometime there wouldn't even be a tank to attack), so your DPS/tank pick target at random because they're supposedly bad.

 

If your DPS/tank picked the healer then they're not helping your own healer, but usually we consider putting pressure on enemy healer to be a good thing.

 

If your DPS/tank picked the DPS then they're obviously stopping the enemy DPS from attacking your Op healer. If you're trying to kill the opposing DPS you'll obviously use all your CCs wherever it makes sense, which lightens the load your Op healer faces. If they end up killing the DPS that's even better.

 

So the only way it'd even matter is if in regular people have a tendency to spend time chasing tanks, which is something I don't ever observe. Otherwise, even if the rest of your team is picking guys at random, it's still generally beneficial to your team. Yes it'd help if you've guys who are especially good at denial drop a timely AE stun/AE mez while your Op healer is being chased by 3 DPS, but again even if your DPS is just attacking guys completely at random, there's a good chance they'll help out your healer anyway just because stuff like AE stun/AE mez is useful in killing enemy players anyway.

 

The only case it'd matter is if your DPS attacked their healer, and the difference between their healer and your DPS is so great that they ended up accomplishingly nothing useful while your healer eventually died. Though in that case the quality of your DPS versus their DPS is just so great that eventually their DPS will win no matter what your DPS did.

[NoTomorrow]

If development team has the same devs that nerfed1.2 healer commando, then we will definetely get a new healer nerf now. Its even more obvious than it used to be before 1.2.

Commando used to not have energy problems, just like operative now.

Edited June 10, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Dietra]

Ok I gotta ask... Why do people always cry for the healers to get nerved?

 

They don't want to get healed?

Are annoyed when their own healers have the audacity to survive getting hit?

 

So the people crying here for nerves... They want to be able to kill enemy healers solo, because obviously healers (who can heal themselves!!) should be easily killed... Which means the healers healing them should also die easily...

 

The solution therefor is simple. Everybody stop protecting your healers. Tanks stop guarding... Unprotected healers (even scoundrels and operatives) are easier killed that way.

 

But then don't cry in warzones when you don't get healed because your healers spend their time being dead

 

On a more serious note.. Sure scoudrels and operatives have survivability in that they can disappear... A skill that has the same CD as the barrier of the sage btw. They can kite and LOS. As can the sage and the commando. They have more movability than a sage with heals that are not immensely impressive.

 

So how do you want them nerved? Should they not have escapes, like the shadow or assassin or sage and sorcerers?

They can't forcepush... Can't pull a friendly or an enemy... Can't jump... Why should they not have something else to offset those skills? They can roll... Which is the ony skill I can see as being slightly op, especially in huttball...

 

Point being ... Each class has some skill or skills that can make them annoying or harder to kill... If played right.

Why should a healer be different? Cause they can heal? Here is a newsflash... They try to heal you... How dare they

[foxmob]

1. Why is your PVE automatically more important than someone else's PVP?

 

2. It doesn't have to effect PvE at all. There are many ways through bolster or expertise changes that could balance things out. PVP stats don't have effect PVE. Why should PVP players not deserve balance just because you have no faith in the developers? That's not the problem or fault of the player.

 

3. There are tons of people that play both PVE and PVP, don't assume just because someone PVPs that they don't care about PVE at all.

 

yikes! stop right there. these things should be addressed, first and foremost, via pve and pvp set bonuses. trying to "fix" stuff with bolster is possibly the worst idea in the storied history of the Old Republic.

 

secondly, expertise is a flat stat. jigging with that directly affects every other class in pvp. do not play with exp to balance any specific classes.

 

I'm afraid the only realistic options are set bonus changes and class nerfs/buffs.

[Vant]

I have to say they are not ruining my WZ experience. For me It is the stunfest since 1.4 and no X-server ranked Que, However, my biggest fear is the amount of people who call for nerfs because A) the either do not understand what they are doing, B) They don't understand the class they are having issues with so they assume, or C) They do not understand that WZ's are a team sport.

 

 

You can interrupt everything possible and 1 heal will completely recover him. If a pure dps class with a healing debuff (laughable 20%, should be 50%) can't 1v1 a healing class, the game is broken. I can interrupt everything from a scoundrel and all of a sudden his self heals completely heal him up, why? There is nothing to interrupt, you don't have to cast them. All heals should be on a cast timer and interruptable. Your pure dps classes should be your healer killers (Sentinel, Marauder) but sadly they are not. It's called Rock, Paper, Scissors. Tanks counter DPS, DPS Counters Healing, Healing Counters Tanks (to a degree). Right now Healing Scoundrels have no counter.

[sari_ttb]

I dont think 'nerfing' healers is a good thing to do. It would be better to give more healing debuff skills. Like give it to dps scoundrels/operatives for example. Isnt stealth supposed to be a counter for healers cause they can get behind em?(rock, papers scissors.. u know the deal).

 

Don't nerf healers, buff dps'ers (not in terms of dps, but in terms of anti healing ability).

[waterboytkd]

Adding my voice to the chorus of "nerf Scoundrels/Operatives healers". They are way too survivable, and their HoTs plus instant healing mean even when you got them on the run (aka kiting you), they still can heal teammates while keeping themselves up. Put 2 in the same team? Killing is next to impossible, and that's just not fun.

[NoTomorrow]

I dont think 'nerfing' healers is a good thing to do. It would be better to give more healing debuff skills. Like give it to dps scoundrels/operatives for example. Isnt stealth supposed to be a counter for healers cause they can get behind em?(rock, papers scissors.. u know the deal).

 

Don't nerf healers, buff dps'ers (not in terms of dps, but in terms of anti healing ability).

 

healing debuff skills will make obsolete DPS classes that don't have one. You will basically make any DPS but Snipers and Marauders useless in PvP.

 

What they need to do, is find a way to bring healers as close as possible to 1.7 version of SWTOR.

 

• Bring energy management skill back to Operatives. The 2.0 energy changes coupled with the new talents added make it very easy to manage it.
  
• Healer spec needs a weaker version version of roll. A CD would be welcomed.
  
• Surgical probe TA proc on HP below 30% needs an internal cooldown.
  
• Cleanse needs a 6-12 second CD. Being able to cleanse any physical/tech/mind so effortlessly so often is way too good. How are we supposed to stop them from rolling, if the physical roots like legshot get instantly cleansed?
  
• All classes need their interrupts on a 8s CD max. No more stupid 12s CD interrupts please.
  

 

This is just a start.

Edited June 11, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Draekos]

Something definitely needs a fix. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a merc/mando break 1 million heals in a warzone since launch. Ops on the hand I see it multiple times a day. Not saying nerf, but the 2 healers aren't even close.

[bsbrad]

Right now ops > sorc > mercs as far as healing. Sorcs still have to worry about energy and mercs are fixed and can be interrupted too easily.

 

Operatives have neither of these disadvantages, in fact is there a disadvantage on bringing an operative over any other healing class.

 

The only one I can think of is that the Sorc could respec to DPS or heals in voidstar depending on the situation, but so could the operative, although scrappers now dont pull as much DPS as they used to.

[Astarica]

healing debuff skills will make obsolete DPS classes that don't have one. You will basically make any DPS but Snipers and Marauders useless in PvP.

 

What they need to do, is find a way to bring healers as close as possible to 1.7 version of SWTOR.

 

• Bring energy management skill back to Operatives. The 2.0 energy changes coupled with the new talents added make it very easy to manage it.
  
• Healer spec needs a weaker version version of roll. A CD would be welcomed.
  
• Surgical probe TA proc on HP below 30% needs an internal cooldown.
  
• Cleanse needs a 6-12 second CD. Being able to cleanse any physical/tech/mind so effortlessly so often is way too good. How are we supposed to stop them from rolling, if the physical roots like legshot get instantly cleansed?
  
• All classes need their interrupts on a 8s CD max. No more stupid 12s CD interrupts please.
  

 

This is just a start.

 

Healing debuffs are just a dumb concept when tied to a specific class. If healing is overpowered and you need healing debuff to counter it then that means people without healing debuffs are useless. If healing is balanced then the classes with healing debuff are now the healer killers and what exactly is their reason for being healer killers, given heal debuffs currently belong to two classes that have almost nothing in common? They should simply get rid of all healing debuffs and just make trauma more potent, and it's one less thing to worry messing up on balance.

 

I don't think we need faster interrupts because it's not like there's any skill in interrupting the big heals while DPS through the rest back when healers were weaker. Right now the healers that are overpowered not because you can't interrupt their spells fast enough. It's because there's basically nothing to interrupt.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Astarica

[MotorCityMan]

The experiment with unstoppable killers hasn't worked, BW. It's time to stop it. Scoundrel/operative healers are ruining everybody else's WZ fun.

 

The problem is OP dps. If dps endurance was less and trauma increased, dps would die eventually even with heals and their OP defensive CDs, then heals would not be OP and the unstoppable dps could finally be killed. With more dps dying, everyone would be happy.

Edited June 11, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[foxmob]

Fix scoundrel/operative healers now!

please read "neuter" for "fix." tnx bai!

[waterboytkd]

The problem is OP dps. If dps endurance was less and trauma increased, dps would die eventually even with heals and their OP defensive CDs, then heals would not be OP and the unstoppable dps could finally be killed. With more dps dying, everyone would be happy.

 

This falls apart when you consider just trying to kill a scoundrel/operative. It's not that the dps doesn't die (even though it doesn't when a healer is on their back), it's that the scoundrel/operative doesn't die when it has a dps on ITS back. If you can't kill the healer 1v1, you can't kill anything. This is true for all healers, actually, and is evident when each team has multiple competent healers, as no one dies. And no one dying is worse than when 2.0 first launched and TTK was down to like 3-4.5 seconds (which was also really stupid, but at least stuff *happened*).

[Dietra]

You can interrupt everything possible and 1 heal will completely recover him. If a pure dps class with a healing debuff (laughable 20%, should be 50%) can't 1v1 a healing class, the game is broken. I can interrupt everything from a scoundrel and all of a sudden his self heals completely heal him up, why? There is nothing to interrupt, you don't have to cast them. All heals should be on a cast timer and interruptable. Your pure dps classes should be your healer killers (Sentinel, Marauder) but sadly they are not. It's called Rock, Paper, Scissors. Tanks counter DPS, DPS Counters Healing, Healing Counters Tanks (to a degree). Right now Healing Scoundrels have no counter.

 

1 heal will completely recover them??? What skill is that? I know the sages have that skill, but I have not seen that skill on a scoundrel yet.... The only thing scoundrel have more than sages is instant heals that don't do an impressive lot of healing. It mostly is to top off... The emergency medpac maybe should have a tiny cd, but instant heals can't give them full health and the skills that can... They can be interrupted easily.

 

 

And again... Why should a healer automatically be "easily killed" 1vs1? They can't kill you so easily.. So why should it be easy for you to kill them? In the long haul they might lose when they can't keep up in healing. But it should not be easy. If they are forced to use their "diagnostic scan" to get energy back... They are in troubke, because that gives barely any health.

 

Ps I saw a sage healer defeat a scoundrel healer in a duel......

Edited June 12, 2013 by Dietra

[NoTomorrow]

1 heal will completely recover them??? What skill is that? I know the sages have that skill, but I have not seen that skill on a scoundrel yet.... The only thing scoundrel have more than sages is instant heals that don't do an impressive lot of healing. It mostly is to top off... The emergency medpac maybe should have a tiny cd, but instant heals can't give them full health and the skills that can... They can be interrupted easily.

 

And again... Why should a healer automatically be "easily killed" 1vs1? They can't kill you so easily.. So why should it be easy for you to kill them? In the long haul they might lose when they can't keep up in healing. But it should not be easy. If they are forced to use their "diagnostic scan" to get energy back... They are in troubke, because that gives barely any health.

 

Thats because the game doesnt only have healers and dps, it also has tanks, the balance is more delicate. Halers are not tanks. And guess what.. healers become increasingly stronger when they have tanks arround.

[foxmob]

mando healers are kinda like tanks. with all the damn healers in regs these days, my medic is better off node guarding. that's a bit of a twist.