Cross Server Queues.

[cycao]

I'm going to agree with Hizoka on this one.

 

Further... hard core PvP are notoriously disloyal to MMOs. They can, and do, MMO hop to get their PvP fix and they are vocal and veonomous toward the MMO dev teams wherever they hang their hat at any given moment.

 

Besides, hardcore PvPers thinking they can stear and drive this games development team is the height of arrogance IMO. It's a PvE game... with some PvP bolted on as a minigame for people wanting a PvP fix. It has never been anything more then this, and likely never will be. This is not a hardcore PvP MMO... so expecting a hardcore PvP play theme is extremely misplaced IMO.

 

Good gravy. Yes this is a PvE game but the devs have admitted they had no idea just how popular the PvP in this game would be. They should really act on that but you know 2 new warzones in 2 years is enough with a ranked system that gets stale playing the same team/players over and over again.

[Saena]

So let me get this straight. Since cross server warzones are "just too darn hard to implement" (although they've been promised for more than a year), if i want a decent PvP experience, I get to move all my characters to one of the servers where most of the PvPers are probably going to congregate for $100 or more (most folks like myself who have been playing from launch have several alts) or i get either frustrating or no PvP as most of the decent pvpers will probably be gone from my current server.

 

I'm not one for rash decisions and i'll see exactly how this pans out, but the unsub option is looking like the way to go. Bioware's PVP failure is now complete.

[Projawa]

No cross server queues, dual spec or other common features. Anemic pvp. Poor client/server/network optimization. It seems like BW's infrastructure, tools, and planning from inception are just poor compared with a shop like Trion. I've recently started to wonder what my sub money is going towards. Seems like getting weekly ops passes as preferred status is the way to go.

[Lord_Karsk]

Ya it's such a *significant* challenge that practically every other mmo out there has it, even the mediocre ones, yet a AAA title such as swtor (can we even consider it a AAA anymore?) can't even manage it? Maybe you guys should higher engineers with actual experience instead of having interns still in college running your servers? It's quite sad that this game is going on two years old and still lacks a feature that is pretty much becoming a standard in the MMO world. And with server transfers (stupid idea to implement this imo as there is only 8 NA servers now) everyone is going to move to bastion/pot5 and its going to kill pvp on all the other servers.

 

Honestly I'm about done with this game. I love star wars, and that's about the only thing that kept me around...and this game BARELY feels like star wars. If it wasn't for the lightsabers I'd probably think it was some cheap knockoff game. I mean, don't get me wrong, I enjoy how combat works...when the games engine cooperates and doesn't hitch with double GCD's or double animations or when the servers desync and I end up 10m away after I leap, or I get rubberbanded back to a root after I force speed or...ya you get the idea.

 

It was a fun 2 years, but really, I'm just waiting for FFXIV:ARR (please be good PLEASE!) and if thats a flop...well I'm screwed I guess lol, but I sure as hell wont be coming back to this game unless the content updates take a huge step in the right direction. Too bad they wont and everything will continue to revolve around the CM while subs get shafted every update (lol @ charging subs to unlock stuff from the collection tab).

 

 

 

It's a stab in the dark here, but maybe, just maybe, you guys should put a bit more effort into sharing information with your player base. I mean would it really kill you guys to show a timeline? No one expects it to be perfect but some info is better than the answers you always give (meaning you give us no answers).

 

You guys should go look at FF14 lodestone page and see what they do for some tips. Not only did the lead developer release a monthly letter telling people whats going on in development, they also released timelines with a massive list of planned/current/notes for patch updates MONTHS in advance(I'd link for an example but you guys would probably remove it but these timelines were like 3 pages long), and official polls asking players what they would like in the future and releasing graphs of player responses and actually implementing stuff from those polls.

 

They released videos of new content all while fixing a broken game they had taken over from the dev team that was fired while also REBUILDING the entire game from the ground up. Yes they were patching a game while also redevloping that game in the background all while the game was not charging subscriptions for over a year.

 

You guys could learn a lot from that dev team in terms of interaction with the community and REAL info on future development plans. It would be nice to know what kind of content we are getting instead of the carrot and stick of "wait and see." I'm tired of that and I really don't feel like putting up with it anymore.

 

/rant that ended up being way to long but I felt like ranting.

Most awesome post and 100% true !!

[spectreclees]

Nice list Kilora!

 

While the exact details of which features will make Game Update 2.4 are still being hardened I can definitely say that Cross-Server Queueing is not in the plan for it. We've taken a hard look at Cross Server Queuing in the past and accomplishing it is a *significant* challenge that would take a lot of time away from other things we are working on. Emphasis on significant. It's not forever off the table but it's not in the plan right now.

 

Even though it is too early to share specifics I can say that Game Update 2.4 as it is being worked on right now has features and changes that should cause a significant improvement of queue times for ranked Warzones in particular. Emphasis on significant!

 

 

That's really disappointing you refuse to put in cross server queues. Shutting us out from the other community of players is the wrong move. You should consider adding it. I'd love to play other people besides my same late night PvP premades on my server.

[Raansu]

Please, try not to talk about things as if you have knowledge of them, when you don't.

 

EVERY other MMO does NOT have cross-server. NO other MMO is using the same engine. NO other MMO is written in the same way. NO other MMO was developed from the ground-up the same way. NO other MMO, that I'm aware of, has both Cross-server AND this small of a dev team.

 

It's great that you think these things are easy. I'd love to see you get a job with BW and implement them.

 

If not, consider keeping moronic comments like that to yourself. I'd love to see you tell a Doctor that open-heart surgery is "easy" and every other cardiologist does it, so why can't he.

 

Everquest 2

Aion

Tera

Rift

Guild Wars 2

Warhammer

Cabal Online

Runes of Magic

Wildstar (new mmo that hasn't released yet but confirmed to launch with cross server grouping)

 

Just to name a few off the top of my head...oh and these are all F2P games as well and none of which have had the budget that swtor had. Posts from diehard biodrones are always fun to read though. Sorry but cross server is becoming a standard, and there is no reason for this game to not have it by now.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Raansu

[Kilora]

Everquest 2

Aion

Tera

Rift

Guild Wars 2

Warhammer

Cabal Online

Runes of Magic

Wildstar (new mmo that hasn't released yet but confirmed to launch with cross server grouping)

 

Just to name a few off the top of my head...oh and these are all F2P games as well and none of which have had the budget that swtor had. Posts from diehard biodrones are always fun to read though. Sorry but cross server is becoming a standard, and there is no reason for this game to not have it by now.

 

 

So, because other games have it, it is easy to implement in SWTOR?

 

I'm not a biodrone by ANY standard. I'm just someone who actually has some knowledge of programming, and calls people out when they make **** up.

[spectreclees]

Everquest 2

Aion

Tera

Rift

Guild Wars 2

Warhammer

Cabal Online

Runes of Magic

Wildstar (new mmo that hasn't released yet but confirmed to launch with cross server grouping)

 

Just to name a few off the top of my head...oh and these are all F2P games as well and none of which have had the budget that swtor had. Posts from diehard biodrones are always fun to read though. Sorry but cross server is becoming a standard, and there is no reason for this game to not have it by now.

 

I'm glad you didn't state the obvious of WoW.

 

Guild Wars 2 actually does it the best with allowing you to "guest" on other servers. Allowing you to play with others on their server.

[spectreclees]

So, because other games have it, it is easy to implement in SWTOR?

 

I'm not a biodrone by ANY standard. I'm just someone who actually has some knowledge of programming, and calls people out when they make **** up.

 

Your whole argument is a problem. The fact their engine is a problem that limits them to so much IS the issue. It needs to be addressed. 2 years to address an issue is not acceptable.

 

GW2 has been out for less time and has addressed issues with its engine. Though not complete it has improved already. I have no idea what goes on in Bioware studios anymore than you do. But I have to wonder... what does go on their to make this still an issue with little to no improvement.

[Kilora]

So here I'll actually agree with you to a point, this wouldn't be as simple as it has been stated but something that would be doable with the proper infrastructure built out for it. Without understanding the application structure all of this is just speculation though, so I'll agree it's more so the development resources available that is the real constraint here.

 

That is absolutely true. Considering I don't have access to their codebase, I have to take what the devs say for fact. Don't really have a reason to think they are lying, either -- because it is extremely possible that they would have to re-work multiple systems to get this implemented.

 

Was it poor planning from the start? Absolutely. Someone at BW did a horrid job of futureproofing the entire games design. Luckily, though, we've seen a lot of those people let go. While I hate to be "happy" that someone lost a job -- if you cannot do the job properly, you don't deserve the job.

 

What they need to do now is hire some devs who have experience Salvaging code. They need seasoned professionals who have experience in start-ups or first-time MMOs.

[YanksfanJP]

Or, you could just wait 3-4 months. Because, if you actually unsubbed and uninstalled, you won't be playing until the patch hits anyway. Patience. It's a virtue.

 

The problem is that It was 3-4 months 12 months ago. It's always 3-4 months with them, and I'm done waiting. The developers have shown no tendency to be able to get thing right. I don't see why I should give them another 50 bucks under the guise of being patient. That's not being patient. It's being stupid.

[Kilora]

Your whole argument is a problem. The fact their engine is a problem that limits them to so much IS the issue. It needs to be addressed. 2 years to address an issue is not acceptable.

 

GW2 has been out for less time and has addressed issues with its engine. Though not complete it has improved already. I have no idea what goes on in Bioware studios anymore than you do. But I have to wonder... what does go on their to make this still an issue with little to no improvement.

 

My argument isn't a problem -- the dev team WAS a problem, and now, to anyone paying attention, resources are the problem.

 

They made horrid choices from the start. Many of those devs were let go, and for good reason. Now, the remaining devs, who are probably not seasoned MMO devs, are trying to piece this garbage together and make it look pretty.

 

Code isn't simple. If you understood programming, you'd grasp the fact that, MANY of these changes will required them to COMPLETELY rework major systems. Something that they don't have the time, resources OR ability to do. Obviously it sucks, but it is reality. Rebuilding a system isn't going to happen if EA isn't handing them a huge budget to play with.

[Kilora]

The problem is that It was 3-4 months 12 months ago. It's always 3-4 months with them, and I'm done waiting. The developers have shown no tendency to be able to get thing right. I don't see why I should give them another 50 bucks under the guise of being patient. That's not being patient. It's being stupid.

 

That was my point. . . .

 

YOU made the right choice. You aren't having fun with the game, or at least not enough to continue paying. So, you are unsubbing. And, I'm assuming you'd come back if 2.4 actually launches with some "ZOMGamazing" PvP stuff.

 

Believe it or not, many PvE players do the same thing. Why give them money if you have no faith in them, and aren't enjoying the game?

 

But demanding information when they've already said "We don't have any to give right now. We aren't giving any right now. We've already given you MORE than we ever have before!!!" is just asinine.

[spectreclees]

My argument isn't a problem -- the dev team WAS a problem, and now, to anyone paying attention, resources are the problem.

 

They made horrid choices from the start. Many of those devs were let go, and for good reason. Now, the remaining devs, who are probably not seasoned MMO devs, are trying to piece this garbage together and make it look pretty.

 

Code isn't simple. If you understood programming, you'd grasp the fact that, MANY of these changes will required them to COMPLETELY rework major systems. Something that they don't have the time, resources OR ability to do. Obviously it sucks, but it is reality. Rebuilding a system isn't going to happen if EA isn't handing them a huge budget to play with.

 

I don't think throwing money at a situation will help the cause. I understand the code is a mess to begin with, but it's going to be 2 years now. They have a team dedicated to working on the code, I don't see how they have come up with nothing. (I am rounding time right now because we will soon be hitting our second year into this game.) I don't mean to argue the point though, you obviously understand where I'm coming from. I just can't rationalize a 2 year wait on any "real" improvements to the engine to allow for some more experimenting.

 

And yes, I didn't mean your argument is the problem, but the basis of your argument being that the engine is crap STILL. Which is the devs problem.

[YanksfanJP]

IF someone already uninstalled and unsubbed -- they have NO right to come in and complain. The PvPers who are sticking it out and still subbing?

 

So the only reason someone is entitled to information is if they choose to punish themselves repeatedly for the next six months? Ridiculous.

Edited June 5, 2013 by YanksfanJP

[Kilora]

So the only reason someone is entitled to information is if they choose to punish themselves repeatedly for the next six months? Ridiculous.

 

You know what is ridiculous?

 

Screaming, "I DEMAND INFORMATION NAO" When you've ALREADY been given significantly more information than in the past, AND have been told 3+ times you won't be getting any more until they are READY to release it.

 

People are unhappy with the information they have been given. And rightfully so -- but to claim that they AREN'T giving any information because you're unhappy with it? What makes you so special?

[YanksfanJP]

But demanding information when they've already said "We don't have any to give right now. We aren't giving any right now. We've already given you MORE than we ever have before!!!" is just asinine.

 

You completely miss the point. The point is that they decided it was better to say the equivalent of "2.4 is going to be awesome for you, but you're just going to have to trust us given our spotless track record." That's what makes it so ridiculous.

 

What they said makes people go away. What they could have said, at least some information... anything at all with substance, would entice some people to hang around for the next 6 months and increase their revenue. Plus, you never know how many of the people that go away will stay away because they find something better (a different game, real life, whatever) in the time they're gone.

[YanksfanJP]

You know what is ridiculous?

 

Screaming, "I DEMAND INFORMATION NAO" When you've ALREADY been given significantly more information than in the past, AND have been told 3+ times you won't be getting any more until they are READY to release it.

 

People are unhappy with the information they have been given. And rightfully so -- but to claim that they AREN'T giving any information because you're unhappy with it? What makes you so special?

 

"2.4 is going to be awesome for PvP but we can't tell you anything about it other than it's going to be awesome for pvp so you're just going to have to trust us - we're not lying this time" is hardly any more than they've said in the past. The fact that you think so is what's ridiculous.

[OldSpiceSwag]

go ahead and kiss a large chunk of your pvp subs goodbye.

[Raansu]

So, because other games have it, it is easy to implement in SWTOR?

 

I'm not a biodrone by ANY standard. I'm just someone who actually has some knowledge of programming, and calls people out when they make **** up.

 

Not a matter of easy or hard. A game developed by bioware backed by EA should have no issues implementing such a feature. Runes of Magic is a full blown F2P game from the start and had no issues adding it. Cabal is like half the size in terms of funding and staff and is also a full blown F2P game and has also added cross server. What exactly is stopping BW?

 

And for the record, I work with linux servers. I'm quite aware of the technicalities that go into programming and maintaining of servers. Still doesn't excuse BW from not implementing it, especially since in the gold post in this thread he did not state they could not do it, they simply choose not to because they clearly would rather waste that effort on the CM getting as much cash from their bleeding player base on a dieing game instead of pulling those resources on actually improving the damn game.

 

I'm glad you didn't state the obvious of WoW.

 

WoW isn't F2P (well I supposed "technically" it is as you can play up to level 20 for free lol) thus I left it out of the list.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Raansu

[aeterno]

I'm not thrilled that cross-server isn't even 100% lined up to eventually get to but I can sorta get it.

 

People may moan but the pvp comunites even on pve servers are quite healthy in terms of getting a good pop frequency for warzones. The whole "pvp is gonna die out on all but 2 servers come transfers" thing is grossly exaggerated imo, the pvp servers would have to be HAL and SAL 9000 to handle everyone lol.

 

I can see how it wouldn't be a priority but I'm worried of a repeat of the LFG tool scenario. You need to pre-plan and pre-implement this stuff.

 

When you get to the stage where cress server queuing is gonna be important to have in terms of queue times it's gonna be waaaaaay too late to start dedicating resources to its implementation, especially if it's really problematic as you indicate. Things will snowball out of control fast and people arent going to wait.

 

Cross server Qs need to come in while populations are still good to help maintain them, not as a hail mary pass at quarter to midnight to reverse a negative trend.

Edited June 5, 2013 by aeterno

[xorcist]

Nice list Kilora!

 

While the exact details of which features will make Game Update 2.4 are still being hardened I can definitely say that Cross-Server Queueing is not in the plan for it. We've taken a hard look at Cross Server Queuing in the past and accomplishing it is a *significant* challenge that would take a lot of time away from other things we are working on. Emphasis on significant. It's not forever off the table but it's not in the plan right now.

 

Even though it is too early to share specifics I can say that Game Update 2.4 as it is being worked on right now has features and changes that should cause a significant improvement of queue times for ranked Warzones in particular. Emphasis on significant!

 

 

Are these more clues to just how limited and unfriendly to change the current game engine is?

 

Many resources may have been put into it. However, I think spending the money for a strong foundation to your home is more important. For many reasons.

Edited June 5, 2013 by xorcist

[limenutpen]

I'm not thrilled that cross-server isn't even 100% lined up to eventually get to but I can sorta get it.

 

People may moan but the pvp comunites even on pve servers are quite healthy in terms of getting a good pop frequency for warzones. The whole "pvp is gonna die out on all but 2 servers come transfers" thing is grossly exaggerated imo, the pvp servers would have to be HAL and SAL 9000 to handle everyone lol.

 

I can see how it wouldn't be a priority but I'm worried of a repeat of the LFG tool scenario. You need to pre-plan and pre-implement this stuff.

 

When you get to the stage where cress server queuing is gonna be important to have in terms of queue times it's gonna be waaaaaay too late to start dedicating resources to its implementation, especially if it's really problematic as you indicate. Things will snowball out of control fast and people arent going to wait.

 

Cross server Qs need to come in while populations are still good to help maintain them, not as a hail mary pass at quarter to midnight to reverse a negative trend.

 

Yes thats the other side of the coin which I am seeing here, and could not explain it myself. This happened in the past, when 1,2 did not have RWZ (cancelled on last day), when LFG tool was not implemented and people demanded it as subs and some servers started to dry out, with server transfers a year ago (3 months late), and now its happening again.

It is happening because they are just seeing a small bit of the picture i.e. lets make these PvPers transfer to wer they want (20$ a character btw), then when they did this we give X-server may be at the end of this year or so, so that people would still be happy.

All I see is milking of subs, which if you see it in context does actually the opposite....

 

BW have a chicken with golden eggs thanks to the SW IP.... 18 months later they are still not giving the right food to the chicken to make the golden eggs though.....

[TridusSWTOR]

It is amazing some of the **** people say when they don't have intelligence on a subject.

 

PVP thrives on the PVP system and if it is good, we will keep playing. We don't need content or a chance to get the color we want for our gear. Most of the PVE gamers I play with leave and return when content gets released.

 

I'm glad you proved his point on the maturity level of PVPers are.

 

You can even look at the PVP forum itself, if you try to actually start a conversation then it's either insults or a few punchline to look cool in front of their friends.

 

Good job taking the high road though!

[Mookind]

I'm not thrilled that cross-server isn't even 100% lined up to eventually get to but I can sorta get it.

 

People may moan but the pvp comunites even on pve servers are quite healthy in terms of getting a good pop frequency for warzones. The whole "pvp is gonna die out on all but 2 servers come transfers" thing is grossly exaggerated imo, the pvp servers would have to be HAL and SAL 9000 to handle everyone lol.

 

I can see how it wouldn't be a priority but I'm worried of a repeat of the LFG tool scenario. You need to pre-plan and pre-implement this stuff.

 

When you get to the stage where cress server queuing is gonna be important to have in terms of queue times it's gonna be waaaaaay too late to start dedicating resources to its implementation, especially if it's really problematic as you indicate. Things will snowball out of control fast and people arent going to wait.

 

Cross server Qs need to come in while populations are still good to help maintain them, not as a hail mary pass at quarter to midnight to reverse a negative trend.

 

Competitive PVP will be dead on all servers but two after transfers come. I wouldn't have to transfer if we had cross server ques

 

Edit - I come from the Harbinger and all the competitive teams will be moving on

Edited June 5, 2013 by Mookind