Is this ethically wrong? or am I being unfair to my team?

[Haggardbr]

When someone's not in at least level 50+ gear - in all slots - then votekick them immediately in a 55 hardmode. You shouldn't have to carry a bad or undergeared DPS. Period. The replacement queue time will be approximately eight seconds.

 

If they don't perform their role correctly, warn them once, then votekick.

 

It's not your job to carry bad.

 

I gotta agree with this.

 

Right now, I'm gearing a gunslinger, although I already have a fully 69 dps commando that has most of his gear augmented, including a piece of 72's there.

 

And while I'm with my gunslinger, the 1st thing I did is to go to makeb's comms vendor and gear him with at least lv58 (old Rakatta grade) mods and barrels. With that I already got some dps boost.

 

Right now, less than 2 weeks after I hit 55 with it, he's close to be top geared, I just need a 69 head piece and the pistols.

 

With that said, whenever I get into a 55 HM I tell people it's a relatively fresh 55 slinger and that I'm still gearing the guy. I know that the tank always check my gear and generally allow me to continue, but if someone comes to me and say I'm too much under-geared and asks me to leave, I will do so and try to improve myself somehow, because no one has the obligation to carry you out through anything.

 

Thankfully, I do know how to play my slinger and I always use my abilities to proc trick shot (sharpshooter tree) as much as I can, because of the massive "after shot" damage it can dish out.

 

And even not having 69's main / off-hands, constantly the tanks have to remove the protection from the healers to put on me, because I draw too much aggro.

 

It's a matter of how you play your class.

 

But, I do agree 110% that no one should be running a 55 HM in less than 50 purple gear, even 66 greens are a "no-go" for me to be honest.

 

The person has a whole game to gather comms to get 58 mods from Makeb's vendor and 66 blue items are fairly cheap, so there's no excuse to be that much under-geared.

 

A few days ago my guild was running S&V for GF comms but we were short on a dps, I called out in the fleet and a slinger offered himself, I invited him and for our surprise, the dude had only 20k hp, while most of us were over the 28k mark.

Our raid officer had no choice but to kick the guy at sight. I mean, it's complicated... but even for a full geared and augmented 69 player with over 30k hp a 55 Ops can be really annoying sometimes, just imagine how we would be with that slinger.

 

So we had to PuG it and luckily we got a good and geared dps.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Haggardbr

[Toweleeeie]

I would kick anyone without 28+ gear. I put in my time and now it's their turn. I had to do HM Ops for rakats now it's just handed to players.

[Eillack]

It's absolutely fine to vote kick a grossly undergeared player. If you're worried it makes you look like a jerk, don't be. You can tell someone politely that they're not geared well enough to run the flashpoint, give them some tips on how to gear up and an idea of what kind of gear rating they need, and send them on their way. You'll be doing both yourself and them a favour.

 

This.

 

This is a situation where you are 100% justified to kick someone OP. Mega ungeared = you are better off tying to get a new replacement.

[Jeweledleah]

jeez OP, its like you were overcompensating for people being jerks, by being too nice yourself.

 

personal rules. if someone is undergeared, I'll give them a chance, depending on how much harder they are making it to heal/tank (my only dps characters are lowbies so I usually heal, and sometimes tank). the moment abuse starts? its automatic kick. I don't play this game to be abused, I play it to have fun and I have zero obligation to tolerate anyone being jerks to me or my friends, but I have obligation to myself and my friends to respect ourselves and our time and get rid of toxic people. if person is inexperienced and keeps ignoring instructions (and I'm not even talking gearing advice, I'm talking - don't hit cced mobs, stand here, etc)? kick. i can work with someone who is undergeared and new, I cannot work with someone who repeatedly makes my life harder because they cannot be arsed to teamwork and refuse to listen.

both of the pugs you have described? would have been kicked and ignored and named to the rest of the guild, so that they could ignore them too.

[Threjyan]

have ever occured to you it is the gameplay that makes the player not the gear?

 

actually past week, we in full 69 and some 72 encountered a healer with rakata and some black holes, and guess what? he did a amazing job, never runing out of force and we never wiped or he stayed back to gather up. great player. those who think gear is everything are very damn wrong. "they should go home and rethink their lives"

 

this healer made a better job on his older gear, better than some healers who have full 69.

 

the gear is not everything. learn to explain and learn to listen are also very good.

 

never judge a player by its gear. its a bad assumption to do it. you might be surprised like i was when i saw the hp of this particular healer. another great lesson i learnt in the game.

[cxten]

I will not avoid responsibility that my tanking in this instance was forgettable. I wasn't managing aggro properly and big droid targeted him instead of me.

 

I doubt it was your fault. Why would the terribly geared vanguard pull off you? Has to be that he taunted.

 

As to your original question, I like to be nice & helpful as well, and don't mind slightly undergeared players. As a poster shortly before me said, some slightly undergeared players are quite good. But as undergeared as your dps pugs were, I'd have nicely explained where to get the purple 58 mods from the Makeb vendor, and suggested they run some level 50 flashpoints and dailies first. The adage about teaching someone to fish instead of handing them a fish comes to mind.

[Mogsters]

Vanguard sounded a bit nubish and I get u gave him a chance, other guy with all the rants? lol instant kick.

[Tsillah]

People who don't take the trouble to gear up before level 55 are auto kick for me. They ruin everybody else's experience and I don't want to deal with.

 

If you are level 55 and use greens or any gear that's below level 50, you have no business in a random flashpoint. If you wanna make a team and use the gf then fine. But don't go in to find a pug to carry you. It's antisocial and I will not accept you.

 

It's a level 55 HARD MODE flashpoint. Of course you can expect people to have at least a very minimum of gear.

[Haggardbr]

have ever occured to you it is the gameplay that makes the player not the gear?

 

actually past week, we in full 69 and some 72 encountered a healer with rakata and some black holes, and guess what? he did a amazing job, never runing out of force and we never wiped or he stayed back to gather up. great player. those who think gear is everything are very damn wrong. "they should go home and rethink their lives"

 

this healer made a better job on his older gear, better than some healers who have full 69.

 

the gear is not everything. learn to explain and learn to listen are also very good.

 

never judge a player by its gear. its a bad assumption to do it. you might be surprised like i was when i saw the hp of this particular healer. another great lesson i learnt in the game.

 

Of course the player makes the character.

 

But the healer you described had, at least, the minimum recommended gear to run such hard modes, so he was right and was using the most of his gear.

 

You can't expect a healer, taking your example, with below 50's or even 40's blue and green mods to do the same this healer you described did.

[AlixMV]

Since this game auto-targets as soon as your current target dies it's not impossible to target CC/next group/wrong target once or twice during a run.

 

A bit OT, but you can turn auto-targetting off in your Preferences. If this is such a big problem, then that's what people should do, in order to avoid exactly the scenario you describe.

 

More to the point for the OP: I'm with the people who applaud how nice you were about it, and echo the advice to not completely judge someone by their gear and give them a chance.

 

But if they're badly undergeared, not following tactics, /and/ abusive--you have the grounds to votekick him. You shouldn't be having to spend an hour+ of your time on content that isn't fun for you, and I think you were being unfair to the rest of your team by not doing so.

 

Relating to your subject line: borderline ethically wrong is votekicking someone just before the final boss in Kaon Under Siege while Level 50. But the DPS refused to follow tactics and was verbally abusive, and we'd had enough.

 

Golden Rule of endgame content: don't piss off the Tanks and the Healers

Edited June 4, 2013 by AlixMV

[Tachenko_Yuri]

Hi All,

 

I have faced 4 instances of an interesting situation and now wondering what would be the generally acceptable thing to do -

 

My guild is a relatively small guild and recently, we determined that we had enough people to start looking at doing End Game PvE Content such as 55 Ops and HMFPs (most of us are casual players and play when real life gives us the chance). To this degree I geared up a Vanguard Tank (with the help of Justcae and a few others to get my gearing right) along with a healer to practice our rotation, positioning, coordination etc. To this end, we figured the more practice we get (me as a Tank and my healer) the better prepared we will be for Ops.

 

Last night, we were short of DPS and decided to use the Group finder queue to fill the void. normally we only use the queue for the Comms and the team coordinates over TeamSpeak, but being short, we went for a Random DPS.

 

The first person to join our team in Hammer Station HMFP was a Vanguard Assault Spec using Ion Cell who was still using a combination of lvl 40s and lvl 50 Tanking Mods (keep in mind - he confirmed he was in assault spec tree) and lvl 35 green relics bought from the LS vendor. I mentioned to him he was in the wrong tree and he changed cells. we proceeded to the first droid boss and I noticed he was taking massive amounts of damage and died 4 times in the first 2 mins of fight. the healer was fighting 1k Lag, negating damage I was taking from the laser debuff Stack and trying to keep the poor vanguard alive. We made through as the Sentinel was in fully augment 69 geared focus sent and basically did the work of both himself and the Vanguard. End of the fight, the vanguard scored a blue 66 grade drop. by this time, we were certain we can't burn the frog in time so decide to drop the bonus. the Trio Boss set - same scenario as the first (death>respawn>jump in >death) while hammering the shielded bosses. Long story short, got through that boss and moved on to the final boss. where things took a turn for tragically comical. The guy refused to side step the "Sweeping Gunfire" and was intent on Tanking the boss in Assault Spec. in a nutshell - final boss he died 6 times before we managed to down the boss. At the end of it - he walked away with a 69 Tanking headpiece (need rolling it over me despite being a DPS).

 

Second Scenario, we pick up another random - this time a sentinel in a mix of lvl 35 mods and a single 66 Rating piece (legs) and lvl 27 Relics. and the above scenario repeats. Only this time - this guy did not even bother to check CC targets. he went on an absolute rampage on anything he could throw his light saber at. We get to the first boss, and he gets trapped 3 times while the rest of us are busy getting carbonised and dying (I had explained the mechanics to him in detail so he doesn't fall into the trap of ignorance). We get the to the Wookie and as him to wait while I kite the wookie to a safe corner - only to have him jump ahead of me and dying promptly....again by sheer chance we down the Wookie and work our way to Ortol where the team wiped 5 times (he wouldn't unshackle us despite getting alerts we're shackled. He abuses my healer for being a bad healer, abuses me for being a bad tank and saying he can't carry us through the final boss. I should point out - when we asked him if he had done this before, his answer was no. After that rant and continuous wall of abuse (why aren't we predicting the magnetic shackles, why is he dying so much, we're terrible tanks and DPS, we should stop playing etc..). we manage to burn Ortol down. come loot time - he need rolls on a Vanguard Tank implant (I'm using the Veracity tanking implant set) and hurls some more abuse and leaves.

 

In Both Instances my healer (Fully Augmented and optimised 69 gear set), DPS (fully augmented and optimised 66 gearset) and myself (mostly optimised 69 Tanking set except for implants, earpiece and headpiece which I lost earlier) felt we were carrying the guys while getting abuse hurled at us in the second instance (the vanguard fully acknowledged his faults). We were in a mindset to vote kick him, but I felt the more sporting thing to do was to finish the HMFP so he gets an exposure to the mechanics and instructed my guild members to stick it out (they respect my call and my decisions so they did not argue).

 

The question here is - was I in the wrong? Were we giving the impression that 55 HMFPs are a pushover (when we do a guild only run, we clear HS in about an hour and 15 mins, Athiss in an Hour, Cademimu in about hour and a half - all including the bonus boss and no wipes) by running people who are clearly vastly under geared and unprepared. Should we have kicked them after explaining they really should upgrade gear and work their way through 50 HMFPs to get 61 rating gear before even attempting 55 HMFPs? What would be the right thing to do in instances like these? at the end of both runs, we forked out rep costs which were around 150k mark from the multiple number of wipes (my healer is F2P so it was even higher for him). My Guys swallowed it and recouped it from dailies, but was it unfair of me to make them suffer because One DPS in Both instance should really not have been there...

 

First person was a legit insta-boot material. Undergeared beyond redemption.

 

Second person: level 35 mods in cademimu HM? Legit instaboot again.

 

Your fault? none. There are 2 sets of flashpoint where one can get geared for the 55s. Your only fault is being too nice and actually attempting to drag those lazy leeches through the flashpoints at your guild's expense, both in credits and in time.

[WarGame]

I would probably try to stick it out with an undergeared guy if they weren't scum. It seems to me the random players from your first two scenarios are scum, I would have vote kicked him and put him on ignore the moment he said anything about the people in your guild. Not sure what you were thinking having them put up with that.

[wainot-keel]

I would probably try to stick it out with an undergeared guy if they weren't scum. It seems to me the random players from your first two scenarios are scum, I would have vote kicked him and put him on ignore the moment he said anything about the people in your guild. Not sure what you were thinking having them put up with that.

 

Yeah, I don't mind undergeared people. I try to help them and finish the flashpoint if possible without kicking them. But if they are a-holes, vote kick, no matter how awesomely geared they are.

[Thylbanus]

I'd have to say, votekick is appropriate here. It would be one thing to be elitist and kick someone who didn't know what they were doing (i.e. first timers either in the mission or MMOs peroid.). It is incumbent upon us to educate the ignorant. They will be our future teammates, so making sure that they are well educated only benefits us. Being undergeared is an education point, but still you would need to let the kicked person know by saying, "Hey. Sorry, but you are undergeared for this mission. You need to get something better before trying it again in the future. Sorry." Then kick them.

 

We would all love to think that newbs would speak up about lack of knowledge in a mission, but that isn't always the case. I know the first time I've run things, the first thing I've said is that I didn't know what to expect. A vast majority usually give me the "follow my lead" line and we are off. On some occasions I've been kicked. I can only imagine that karma paid them back, but I have no idea. Since then, I've become quite adept at many of these missions and I thank all who have put up with my newbishness and teaching me.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I wonder when people get votekicked because they don't have "correct gear" on Athiss, for example ? Story Mode ?

 

Because, at one point thi votekicking because of bad gear will be like a line of domino stones falling over ...

[Eshmael]

If we are doing lvl 55 HMFPs and get a player/character who is constantly afk, has absolutely no gear or starts to bodypull, we first let him die, explain him whats going on and votekick him if he trys to suck again all over again.

The we get a companion out.

They are good enough, even as healers (at least some healcomps) =)

[gorstram]

I was pretty harsh in my previous post, after having a few hours to think it over, I wouldn't kick anyone who has level 35 relics in. SWTOR punishes people for not going light/dark V by making all of the blue level 50 relics locked into one alignment or the other. It took me a while to get the comms needed to buy a purple relic, and to get one to drop. But the rest of my gear was 58, 61, and 66 mods.

 

People can farm planetary comms for Makeb mods idiotically easy nowadays by just running lowbie heroic 2's and 4's. So the rest of their gear shouldn't have anything lower than Makeb mods in them.

[Thylbanus]

I wonder when people get votekicked because they don't have "correct gear" on Athiss, for example ? Story Mode ?

 

Because, at one point thi votekicking because of bad gear will be like a line of domino stones falling over ...

 

Wow. Applying the Communist Domino Theory to Star Wars. I am at an unusual loss of words.

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

As crazy as this may sound, actually leaving them in the team from the get go is actually wrong. I know it sounds cruel, but then you have to eat your Broccoli too :<)

 

Think of it as this, we all are here to have fun, if a player not equipped for the mission is allowed in the group and then the group tries to execute the mission, what really happens? Frustration

 

The ill equipped player is frustrated abd embarrased at becoming a professional "dirt napper"

 

The rest of team is aggravated at the countless failures and re-runs trying to get through, its like the economic analogy of "Throwing good money after bad"

 

So when its all over and done, everybody is mad, and what was the point of it? Was it not to have fun in the first place?

 

So be gentle and explain the new player, that he is not equipped for the task expected out of him, and that the mission is too tough for the current group to mentor and support him through it. I would not get into an argument of what build, or equipment he should have, would gently refer him to the forums so he can get an unbiased take on what he needs to do, and not burn up your team and your's time.

 

I know its tough, but its best if handled politely up front, ultimately the player may be mad at you, but will not be ultimately as mad as he got chain killed and then he got kicked out, had you let him stay.

 

Hugs

 

Sue

[Ottoattack]

This is a bit generic, but if a anybody is below mostly rating 146 gear, I boot them. They are not geared enough. HM FPs are rating 148 per BW, if you significantly under geared you are getting the booted. There is a plenty of time and opportunities for you to gear up between level 50 and 55. If you did not its your problem. Stick to dailies and level 50 FPs.

 

If I deem someone as ninja looter, they will get the boot plus ignore. If your role on an item that is not your class (rolling on will power and you are aim) you will most likely get booted. I booted someone on the last boss just before the we press a button to end the FP, so they did not get the credit for it (10 elites), after he ninja looted. I am extremely unforgiving with ninja looters.

 

Trash talkers, especially dps, will unquestionably get booted. If we run in a guild team of three and a dps starts trash talking, he/she is getting booted on the spot. There is a million dps in que. Why should we deal with an idiot?

 

I have no problem helping new or under geared (unless its severely under geared) through content, but I have zero tolerance for ninja looters and trash talkers.

[Zadtro]

I know its good to help players out when they need it but there is a line you have to draw because it will constantly happen. In your situation it sounds like people are trying to skip doing the 50HMFP which i'm not saying is unfair but it helps players to get used to tactics. If their gear was that bad and their skills/tacts etc i would have given them a website to check out specs and voted to kick or maybe even asked him to leave nicely so there are no hard feelings.

 

Its you and your guild who suffered a lot. Good on you for sticking with it but games are about having fun and its not fun to carry someone that bad.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

When someone's not in at least level 50+ gear - in all slots - then votekick them immediately in a 55 hardmode. You shouldn't have to carry a bad or undergeared DPS. Period. The replacement queue time will be approximately eight seconds.

 

If they don't perform their role correctly, warn them once, then votekick.

 

It's not your job to carry bad.

 

^This.

 

OP is way too nice. Guys are gonna play that bad kick them. They get kicked enough they might realize they are the problem. Might....

[Mertaal]

Eh, I'd rather give them a chance, assuming everyone else in the group is geared enough to make up for it. So long as the guy isn't causing wipes/isn't being abusive, it's not going to add any significant amount of time to the run.

 

For example, I was doing Hammer Station one night and we were completing it with relative ease. We got to the bridges and the sniper that wasn't me knocked a robot into the gap. I'd been considering doing exactly the same thing, as I wasn't aware that it wouldn't die (sometimes things do, sometimes they don't).

 

As soon as we got to the other side, the tank/healer vote-kicked the other sniper. He was slightly less geared than me 27k hp to my 30.5k hp) and probably wasn't pulling the same dps, but it hadn't been a problem at all for the entirety of the run. Literally that one little mistake that didn't even cause a wipe (my DoTs finished it off) was enough for the guy to get kicked. In the time that it took for us to get someone else and for them to catch up, we could've downed the boss (or, at least, it would've taken exactly the same amount of time).

 

Between you, you and the OP both get the "decent player" prize. Sadly there are a lot of idiots in this game. Some are hopeless abusive morons like the second DPS in the original post. Others are hyper-superior testosteridiots like some of the people replying here.

 

Guaranteed, 90% of the people reading this thread were hopeless once upon a time. If they were lucky they met patient decent players who tried to guide them through their roles and help them become better players. That is what keeps communities alive, and the standards of play high.

Sadly, many people meet aggressive morons who just insult, shout and kick and then sit there feeling all superior because they can play a computer game slightly better than some other random internet person. That makes people ragequit, is totally unproductive and generally makes an unpleasant community that nobody wants to be a part of.

 

Having said that, of course, if a person is not only hopeless but any of the following: 1. Undergeared, 2. Rude or 3. a ninja looter you have the perfect right to votekick. In the first or third case I'd do a bit of explaining first in case they simply don't understand (rather than signing up in the hope of being able to get carried to the "need" screen). Then bubye.

 

Everyone should be given the opportunity and information to improve. Not everyone is going to bother, but at least give them a push out of the door. After that it's down to them.

[Thundergulch]

I wouldn't votekick anyone immediately because of gear, I would wait to see how skilled they are first...

And if they are clearly in the wrong spec as is the 1st guy, and refuses to listen or change to the correct spec for tanking... then definitely votekick.

I'm willing to carry someone if they show that they are halfway decent skill-wise.

[Spatology]

You aren't obligated to be grouped with anyone. Use the vote kick tool as often as you like.