ETA on Advanced Class change?

[ekwalizer]

I love this idea! Gimme the ability to make my own gear Legacy gear and the CM armors will gain a new customer for life!

 

See what just happened there. We found some common ground.

[Ratajack]

Considering that none of us are privy to the code, or the engine. We could speculate as to how the game could even handle this. My guess though, it once you are a Commando, there's no easy way to undo that,

 

For example, I used to run a NWN1 world. When we felt it appropriate we would relevel a toon for someone. We could not get them out of their original class. so they were stuck with that. While two ACs share one Story, just setting someone back to level 9 doesnt guarantee that it wipes the AC. Once you become a Merc, thats how you are tracked in the game. That is where your skills draw from. So, without so much as a nod from the devs on it being "possible" this entire thread is a waste of time

 

Given that there are close to 5000 posts on this one thread and about 20 similar threads floating around, and considering this was discussed and decided against prelaunch - I'd lean toward it's a bridge too far.

 

Yes, someone said in NOV 2012 that AC Change was "likely to happen". Well, that was 18 months ago. Not so much as a cricket chirp since.

 

BUt rather than put the onus of why not on us, why don't you, in explicit detail, lay out a way to make this work - how do we get around coding issues, bugs that will arise because they will, and what content gets shelved so that a handful of people get their beloved AC Respec (which NO other game allows).

 

That particular poster will NOT meet your challenge and will, in all likelihood, simply declare that since you issued that challenge you must have any answers to possible pitfalls. The ones which you described in this post will likely be dismissed by that poster as invalid or meaningless.

[ekwalizer]

it sounds to me like you guys are coming from a hardcore point of view where time spent > everything else.. mmo's do not work that way unless they're niched that way.

 

MMOs are Real Life Time Sinks by design. "I don't have time to do that" is a false argument. What it means is "I don't want to do that".

[Brewski]

See what just happened there. We found some common ground.

 

Quick! End the thread! It's a rare consensus, and we should all bask in it's glow for a while.

[TUXs]

See what just happened there. We found some common ground.

 

Of course we can! I'm very open to debate - I'm not advocating for this just to argue against you. I simply see absolutely ZERO negative impact on the game if we could swap ACs, but I also see enough of a reason to add it, that I feel very strongly about it

 

I continually ask players for a reason NOT to have it and the same sorry excuses come out of all 5 people arguing against it "they didn't earn it...", which I just think is silly and short sighted. I've gamed long enough to know that the class I pick today, can change tomorrow. I pick my classes very carefully in MMOs, but even so, changes that were beyond my ability to predict caused my class roll to change enough that I quit LOTRO and STO over the changes. As I said, MMOs are fluid games, ever changing and ever evolving...not just the game itself, but the games community as well. I believe the Devs need to accommodate players better than SWTOR does.

 

I assure you, it's nothing at all personal

[TUXs]

MMOs are Real Life Time Sinks by design. "I don't have time to do that" is a false argument. What it means is "I don't want to do that".

I don't even disagree with you on this. I don't believe it's 100% true, but I do believe there's a lot of truth to it. However...if allowing that player who's obviously not enjoying a toon he's maxed out, to swap his AC and change his group roll, maybe that player would find enjoyment in the game again and stay longer. What possible downside is there to allowing people the ability to change AC? All I see is the chance to rekindle some burnt out or frustrated players enjoyment...which I think is worth it.

[Ratajack]

Of course we can! I'm very open to debate - I'm not advocating for this just to argue against you. I simply see absolutely ZERO negative impact on the game if we could swap ACs, but I also see enough of a reason to add it, that I feel very strongly about it

 

I continually ask players for a reason NOT to have it and the same sorry excuses come out of all 5 people arguing against it "they didn't earn it...", which I just think is silly and short sighted. I've gamed long enough to know that the class I pick today, can change tomorrow. I pick my classes very carefully in MMOs, but even so, changes that were beyond my ability to predict caused my class roll to change enough that I quit LOTRO and STO over the changes. As I said, MMOs are fluid games, ever changing and ever evolving...not just the game itself, but the games community as well. I believe the Devs need to accommodate players better than SWTOR does.

 

I assure you, it's nothing at all personal

 

I do not see the ever changing, nerfing and buffing of classes as cause to allow class changes. If the class I choose today gets nerfed, I have the options to either continue playing a class that has been nerfed or to level a new class, which may be nerfed at a later date.

 

Since there is no time limit on leveling, I do not claim that I do not have the time to level a new class, even though I am lucky if I get 3-4 hours a week to play.

[Ratajack]

I don't even disagree with you on this. I don't believe it's 100% true, but I do believe there's a lot of truth to it. However...if allowing that player who's obviously not enjoying a toon he's maxed out, to swap his AC and change his group roll, maybe that player would find enjoyment in the game again and stay longer. What possible downside is there to allowing people the ability to change AC? All I see is the chance to rekindle some burnt out or frustrated players enjoyment...which I think is worth it.

 

Those downsides have been listed time and time again.

[hallucigenocide]

Name changes are already in the game, and if this is about being able to transfer stuff from one toon to another, let's move the discussion to binding more gear to legacy rather than a particular toon. That at least is easier to implement, and with fewer potential pitfalls, than something like changing your class.

 

this may probably be a simpler solution and imo it should allready be here.

many of these things are good for several reasons. not restricting toons to just the 1 AC is also a great way to keep names available since people wont have to make new toons everytime they want to switch AC(just restrict it to the class it's associated with then there's really no legitimate harm done)

[Brewski]

this may probably be a simpler solution and imo it should allready be here.

many of these things are good for several reasons. not restricting toons to just the 1 AC is also a great way to keep names available since people wont have to make new toons everytime they want to switch AC(just restrict it to the class it's associated with then there's really no legitimate harm done)

 

But it's not simple. Class change (and make no mistake, AC change is the same as changing your class completely) is a very complex process that Bioware has shied away from since ... well, since before this thread was started ages ago.

 

It's not going to happen any time soon, that much is clear, and frankly there are better QoL improvements they could implement easier that would affect more people and be better for the game.

 

Heck, I have an operative and scoundrel I wish were actually a sniper and gunslinger respectively, but I have no desire to see this implemented. If I decide it's worth the effort, I will roll a Gunslinger, buy two renames and level him up. Class changes are just not worth the effort involved and problems they would introduce at this stage in the game.

[hallucigenocide]

But it's not simple. Class change (and make no mistake, AC change is the same as changing your class completely) is a very complex process that Bioware has shied away from since ... well, since before this thread was started ages ago.

 

It's not going to happen any time soon, that much is clear, and frankly there are better QoL improvements they could implement easier that would affect more people and be better for the game.

 

Heck, I have an operative and scoundrel I wish were actually a sniper and gunslinger respectively, but I have no desire to see this implemented. If I decide it's worth the effort, I will roll a Gunslinger, buy two renames and level him up. Class changes are just not worth the effort involved and problems they would introduce at this stage in the game.

 

it's allready in there.. all you have to do is flip a button really... the fact that we have to pick a AC at level 10 suggest that they allready got everything we need for this so why would it be so hard?

 

also i'm not sure you're aware of this but you can delete a character and at a later point have it fully restored so the way i see it.. they can do this they just have'nt chosen to do so yet.

Edited May 5, 2014 by hallucigenocide

[ekwalizer]

Since some people like to call for it every 22 minutes, I figured I'd start here and add to it in order as I go.

 

That said, I am not 100% against AC change. 1 Time. I still believe this problem is easily solved by rerolling.

 

PRO Reason: It will make money for the game

CON Reason: Shortly after appeasing the instant gratification crowd they will move on to something else as they always do. Any money that was made has to be offset by the cost of development.

 

PRO Reason:

though i do agree with you, there is a major floor in that, we dont have 16 character slots to create every AC in the game on one server on the same legacy, and though there are mirror classes, and the abilities have identical effects as their mirror, the animation is different and I would want to see that, and one last thing... if anyone thought I couldn't make enough end game toons to fill the limited 12 slots available on the server I play on, oh how wrong you would be.

 

CON Reason:

It may cost some CC's (or IG Credits), but you can purchase extra character slots and have up to 22 characters on a server, plenty of space for all 16 AC's.

 

PRO Reason:

Having more choice is never a bad thing in any game.

CON Reason: While true on the face of it, that doesn't mean that this is one of those options.

 

PRO Reason:

How is being able to pay to change AC any different than rolling a new alt? I shudder at the thought of grinding through the same mind-numbing missions.

And how does my choice of AC impact anyone else?

 

CON Reason: The impact is that YOU made a choice. The same choice everyone else made. It is your responsibility to live with that choice. You didn't have to invest time into an AC you didn't like. It impacts everyone else because you are asking for the Devs to dedicate time and resources to your poor decision making skills.

 

PRO Reason

It is very presumptive and unconstructive to intimate that someone who wishes to keep their current character, but try a different role, is doing it strictly out of "laziness" or a lack of desire to play the game. In fact, if you stop slinging petty insults long enough to think about it, you can come up with a list of many other reasons someone might want to flip ACs without re-rolling.

 

CON Reason: They in fact already have another "role" available to them already in their current AC. Except Sniper/Sling and Mara/Sent.

 

PRO Reason:

no adv class IS just SUBSET of a class, not entirely new class itself

a sith jugg is still a sith warrior and so goes for mara.

 

CON Reason: Once you select your Advanced Class you are only a "warrior" for the purpose of your story. What does your character sheet say you are?

 

PRO Reason:

This is complete fearmongering. You have as much danger of facing this if you deal with someone who just switch to Tank after leveling 53 levels as DPS and has no Tanking mods or augments and all low-Health/high-Stat armorings.

Better prevent people from respec'ing, huh?

 

CON Reason:

Yes, we already have to deal with that with those that change spec from DPS to tank. We do not have to deal with those that change from heals to tank, or from tank to heals. Does the fact that we already have to deal with this to a certain extent justify compounding it by allowing people to change class completely? In my opinion, it doesn't. By not allowing class changes, we keep those situations to a minimum.

 

PRO Reason:

If you're happy only having a single playstyle for each role, then sure, go for it, have 2 characters and 4 roles. Who cares?? If you're having fun and playing well, great! Personally, I would still want multiple alts because playing the same style gets old after a while. Melee as Assassin is a totally different experience than melee as a Marauder.

 

But I already worked through my class stories with certain classes and I feel very attached to:

• the character
  
• everything she did and accomplished
  
• her choices
  
• her personality
  
• her story and backstory
  
• her relationship with her companions
  
• her alignment (I always eagerly see what my final alignment is based on all my in-character choices)
  
• the pieces and goodies she picked up along the way
  
• the outfits I meticulously constructed for myself (and my entire crew)
  

Damn it, that is my Bounty Hunter, that is my Smuggler, that is my Knight. No other one is!

 

I don't want a substitute or re-do because that's not fun to me. I already saw the story and played it my way. I'm happy with the character. I just ended up finding, for example, the Gunslinger playstyle fairly bland. I like my Agent/Operative a lot better. I'd love to keep my Smuggler as I made her but be a Scoundrel moving forward.

 

I don't bloody care if you accuse me of being "lazy" for not wanting to re-do my beloved and patiently-crafted characters. It's a damn computer game. Go find a real problem in the outside world to picket and moan about and actually effect positive change with your neurotic energy.

 

On the other hand, people proposing actual gameplay problems have my respect and understanding, and I'm listening to you. So far, I don't feel any issue brought up is so severe that it can't be adapted to or worked past. But, your concerns about the actual health of the game are fair.

 

Response: THIS is the most valid reason I have seen thusfar. It is this scenario where I would wholeheartedly get behind a 1-Time AC respec per toon. But how many out there are legitimately in this situation? I was similarly in it until I made the push to have all 16, now it isn't such an issue for me. But I completely see where this poster is coming from and find these reasons valid.

 

 

More to follow. It's late here in Afghaniland

[ekwalizer]

Of course we can! I'm very open to debate - I'm not advocating for this just to argue against you. I simply see absolutely ZERO negative impact on the game if we could swap ACs, but I also see enough of a reason to add it, that I feel very strongly about it

 

I continually ask players for a reason NOT to have it and the same sorry excuses come out of all 5 people arguing against it "they didn't earn it...", which I just think is silly and short sighted. I've gamed long enough to know that the class I pick today, can change tomorrow. I pick my classes very carefully in MMOs, but even so, changes that were beyond my ability to predict caused my class roll to change enough that I quit LOTRO and STO over the changes. As I said, MMOs are fluid games, ever changing and ever evolving...not just the game itself, but the games community as well. I believe the Devs need to accommodate players better than SWTOR does.

 

I assure you, it's nothing at all personal

 

Just because you don't agree with the plethora of reasons detailed throughout this thread, doesn't negate them as valid reasons. That is what has been frustrating Rata and myself. Since the three of us know full well that the three of us were involved in this very thread back in July and August when said reasons were detailed ad nauseum.

[LordArtemis]

Current list, pros and cons as reported by participants as far as I can tell, which have not changed. I will repost this to aid in the discussion since it seems quite reanimated from the dead.

 

Option 1

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 3

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 4

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 7

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - Must level one character to max level in an AC to unlock legacy ability to switch AC for that class - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 8

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - maximum 8 changes per account, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 9

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum number of changes - must change at AC trainers on fleet - 1 Week cooldown - Option for AC change unlocked as Character Perk for 600 cartel Coins (or 1.5 million credits) - Each subsequent AC change costs 40 cartel coins (or 100,000 credits).

 

Option 10

 

Level 40 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 11

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum number of changes - must change at AC trainers on fleet or at terminal on ship - 1 Week cooldown - Single use Consumable purchased from Cartel Market for 1,000 CC (resalable on GTN).

 

Option 12

 

No AC change allowed.

 

 

And this is the pro and con list as it stands right now. It is certainly open for more additions or corrections.

 

 

PROS

 

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.

2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.

3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.

4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

5. increasing choices and options.

 

CONS

 

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

8) Development resources could be better spent elsewhere on more popular content.

[Kourage]

Having leveled 1 of each advanced Imperial class already, this proposition, if implemented, would be a slap in the face to me & every other subscriber who has played since released and leveled them all.

 

ETA is never.

[Gyronamics]

I know this is an older topic, but I'm equally curious. I'm seriously debating deleting my Mercenary, because I want to re-use the name and create a Powertech instead. However, if they are seriously considering the possibility of changing AC's, then I would happily hold off until such a feature were added.

 

Ever heard of buying a character rename...

[TUXs]

Just because you don't agree with the plethora of reasons detailed throughout this thread, doesn't negate them as valid reasons. That is what has been frustrating Rata and myself. Since the three of us know full well that the three of us were involved in this very thread back in July and August when said reasons were detailed ad nauseum.

Plethora of reasons? Do you TRULY believe that the following are "reasons"? Because this is all I've gotten out of these threads.

"you didn't earn it"

"you won't know how to play"

"you'll need new armor"

"you're lazy"

 

Those aren't "reasons" - those are excuses.

 

I can give reasons and list examples as to why I feel it's warranted every time someone asks me to, yet neither you nor Rat can give me ONE freaking reason why YOU think this is a bad idea...

 

Give me ONE reason this would be bad for the game - try your best to convince me it's a bad idea...please! I'm honestly open to it...but so far, nobody has even tried, instead they simply list off excuses and insist on punitive reasons for restricting it.

[TUXs]

Having leveled 1 of each advanced Imperial class already, this proposition, if implemented, would be a slap in the face to me & every other subscriber who has played since released and leveled them all.

 

ETA is never.

Slap in the face? Really? LOL! You'd still have all of your characters, they'd still have their one. They gained nothing but a chance to enjoy this game more and you see that as a slap in the face? Geezus...

 

Again, the ridiculous "I did it, they should too" "reason" lol

Edited May 5, 2014 by TUXs

[ZahirS]

Having leveled 1 of each advanced Imperial class already, this proposition, if implemented, would be a slap in the face to me & every other subscriber who has played since released and leveled them all.

 

ETA is never.

 

How about No.

 

AC Respec will come, devs will make sure its there as Legacy Perk too.

[Khevar]

Define "a while"?

 

Do they let you keep using that tv until the next model is released, or it's no longer the best tv out there(opposite AC is buffed)?

Depends on the store. Usually it's just a couple of months.

 

I did purchase a TV once with a "no questions asked" replacement plan that allowed me to exchange it for original purchase price up to 2 years later. The plan cost about 10% of the purchase price, as I recall. They make money on this because most people are too lazy to take advantage of the offer later on.

 

I happily exchanged my old TV for the latest model about 18 months later.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Khevar

[hallucigenocide]

here's one way you could do it.

if you're an assassin wanting to change into a sorcerer it will cost you 2400 CC

if you are a subscriber and allready have leveled the desired AC to max level the cost would be 1/3 of the cost.

 

it'll still be a rather hefty price and BW will make some more money to make more content .

[BuriDogshin]

here's one way you could do it.

if you're an assassin wanting to change into a sorcerer it will cost you 2400 CC.

How effectively different is this from WoW's recently-introduced ability to buy a fully-leveled toon for US$60 ?

(other than WoW giving you Lvl90 gear as well, and your proposal requiring someone first level a toon to max the usual way).(see details of WoW "Boost" at battle.net)

 

I personally oppose pay-to-win, which WoW's new "boost" smacks of. So, given how class balance changes over time, does pay-to-change-AC have a pay-to-win component or risk to it?

 

I do not feel any desire to change any of my toons' ACs, since I have all the ACs Imp side (and all the base classes Pub side), so I may not understand the motivation of those that do.

[hallucigenocide]

How effectively different is this from WoW's recently-introduced ability to buy a fully-leveled toon for US$60 ?

(other than WoW giving you Lvl90 gear as well, and your proposal requiring someone first level a toon to max the usual way).(see details of WoW "Boost" at battle.net)

 

I personally oppose pay-to-win, which WoW's new "boost" smacks of. So, given how class balance changes over time, does pay-to-change-AC have a pay-to-win component or risk to it?

 

I do not feel any desire to change any of my toons' ACs, since I have all the ACs Imp side (and all the base classes Pub side), so I may not understand the motivation of those that do.

 

you kind of destroyed your own argument when you brought up "pay to win" it means paying to have an advantage over other players via getting gear and other benefits that cannot be obtained trough any other way than spending lots and lots of real money.

Edited May 5, 2014 by hallucigenocide

[Kourage]

How about No.

 

AC Respec will come, devs will make sure its there as Legacy Perk too.

 

Nope. They already said no to it.

[halcyon_havoc]

I wouldn't mind something like this, however I think it should cost something like Legacy level 40-50 (you've proven by then you at least have basic knowledge of this game.)

 

Really though, they ought to have just made 8 different classes per side to begin with.