ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Superman_AZ]

So! Does BioWare have any upcoming plans for this that can be shared with us?

~~~

So anyway, any ETA or news, community team?

 

Almost a full year later... and nothing. Plus, no plans for it with 2.8, or 2.9. I would wager 3.0 will also not have the change. Looks like you have your answer. By not really answering at all, the answer becomes an obvious "No".

[Vhaegrant]

By not really answering at all,

The Devs aren't given to reiterating previous answers they have given. Or else they'd never escape the clutches of the forums. The last official statement of their position on AC swapping is well documented in this thread.

 

the answer becomes an obvious "No".

The answer remains what it has been from the last statement. Probably in the future. The only way it becomes an obvious 'No' is if a Dev makes an unambiguously worded statement, along the lines of, 'AC swapping will never be added as a feature to SWTOR'. Even then, I would hope any Dev engaged in the ongoing development cycle of a game as malleable as an MMO understands the limits of the word 'never'.

 

I would see it far more likely to be a statement along the lines of...'AC swapping is not a feature we would envisage having to implement in the foreseeable future. While it remains a possibility and a feature we understand many players may like to take advantage of we are focusing at this time on adding more features that everyone wants.'

Edited May 9, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Superman_AZ]

Probably in the future.

 

This phrase means about the same as when you ask your parents for something and they say, "Maybe later". As a kid, we took it at face value. When we grew into adulthood, and used the same excuse on our kids, we realized our parents were liars who did not want to hurt our feelings.

 

I'm not one for the sugar coated explanations. Either it is a YES, and it is coming soon, or it is a NO, and it will be "probably in the future".

[Vhaegrant]

This phrase means about the same as when you ask your parents for something and they say, "Maybe later". As a kid, we took it at face value. When we grew into adulthood, and used the same excuse on our kids, we realized our parents were liars who did not want to hurt our feelings.

 

I'm not one for the sugar coated explanations. Either it is a YES, and it is coming soon, or it is a NO, and it will be "probably in the future".

 

You do realise that 'It is coming soon' is just as vague and ambiguous when used in PR speak. It speaks of a commitment to be fulfilled at an undisclosed future time, with no guarantee to an actual release.

 

There are a great many features I'd rather see introduced to SWTOR before development time was spent on implementing an AC change. If it does eventually get a roll out I hope it is alongside a larger feature implementation such as additional AC classes.

[Superman_AZ]

You do realise that 'It is coming soon' is just as vague and ambiguous when used in PR speak. It speaks of a commitment to be fulfilled at an undisclosed future time, with no guarantee to an actual release.

 

There are a great many features I'd rather see introduced to SWTOR before development time was spent on implementing an AC change. If it does eventually get a roll out I hope it is alongside a larger feature implementation such as additional AC classes.

 

Now you are getting it. Even a YES, can sometimes still mean NO. So, until Eric rolls in here, and gives everyone the "Soon" speech, I would labor under the concept that AC Class changes will never happen. If they gave us AC change, we would simply play one character, instead of two. We would buy one set of unlocks, instead of two. We would complete our play time in half the time.

 

For those not following the bouncing ball TIME = MONEY. Less time, less money. Less characters, less money. Not sure why people would assume a for-profit company would incorporate a plan to reduce playtime and hope to make money somehow.

[ekwalizer]

You do realize that 'It is coming soon' is just as vague and ambiguous when used in PR speak. It speaks of a commitment to be fulfilled at an undisclosed future time, with no guarantee to an actual release.

 

18. Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

 

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well.

 

"Likely happen eventually" is worse than saying "maybe later". This is a highly vague statement. "This will likely happen" would have been vague on it's own, but would offer far more certainty than it becomes when you add the additional qualifier "eventually".

 

If you dissect what was actually said here, you find two different "likely(s)".

1.) AC Respec

2.) Species Change

 

Both of these are under the premise, of the question, to be offered on the CM. Therefore both were being looked at from a monetization aspect. Given that Species change has been a function of the game for quite some time now, I believe that the Devs looked into AC respec and for whatever reason determined that it just couldn't be done. At least not cost effectively.

 

If you go back and look you can find other interviews, blogs and live-casts from this same time frame. Much of the same information is discussed. But, AC respec is only found in the Dulfy interview.

Edited May 9, 2014 by ekwalizer

[Vhaegrant]

Now you are getting it. Even a YES, can sometimes still mean NO. So, until Eric rolls in here, and gives everyone the "Soon" speech, I would labor under the concept that AC Class changes will never happen.

Oh, I got it right from the original Dev quote. Feel free to labour on under whichever interpretation of the original quote favours your argument.

 

If they gave us AC change, we would simply play one character, instead of two. We would buy one set of unlocks, instead of two. We would complete our play time in half the time.

How does allowing an AC swapping feature allowing you to play either Powertech or Mercenary (the two Bounty Hunter advanced classes) suddenly alleviate the desire or need to play through the Sith Warrior, Sith Inquisitor, Imperial Agent, Jedi Knight, Jedi Consular, Republic Trooper or Smuggler classes?

There is already a reasonable time sink in place to fulfil those classes without needing to double it for many.

Unlocks can be purchased for account not just per character.

 

For those not following the bouncing ball TIME = MONEY. Less time, less money. Less characters, less money. Not sure why people would assume a for-profit company would incorporate a plan to reduce playtime and hope to make money somehow.

The time spent playing through end game content on your main is likely to dominate your playtime.

So time spent playing one character (your main) is not necessarily a valid comparison to time spent playing your alts.

 

I reached level 50 by day 5 on my main, ended through original content (class/world/Ilum) by day 6, I'm now sat at 44 days played. The average time played on my other level 55s is about 5 days a pop, they tend to get left with a reasonable set of gear but no real end game. I do that on my main.

 

Opening up an AC swap would actually encourage me to spend more time on my Main (a Bounty Hunter, Powertech if you weren't certain why my bias for referenceing BH came from ) not less.

 

Why? Because I feel more connected to my character the more realistic options he has. The more I can engage and interact with others in a less gamey nature the more time I want to spend immersed in the game world.

 

To me, powertech and mercenary feel like skill subsets of the Bounty Hunter, and as a set of abilities should define the Bounty Hunter about as much as the abilities from Shield Tech, Advanced Prototype, Pyrotech, Bodyguard and Arsenal are the defining features of powertech and mercenary.

 

If you are able to create an emotional connection between a player and their character you are likely to retain their play time far longer if you just place obstacles and unnecessary time sinks in their path.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Superman_AZ]

Oh, I got it right from the original Dev quote. ---snipped---

 

Sorry, I'm not one for breaking down a response and going point by point. Feel free to rationalize it any way you choose. Bottom line is, this is how MMOs get you to spend more time and more money. Flipping a switch for player accommodation is seldom a priority. Personally, I could have seen the advanced classes as specs and just make the character dual spec. But, since this is not the path they chose, they are not likely to change it.

[Vhaegrant]

"Likely happen eventually" is worse than saying "maybe later". This is a highly vague statement. "This will likely happen" would have been vague on it's own, but would offer far more certainty than it becomes when you add the additional qualifier "eventually".

 

If you dissect what was actually said here, you find two different "likely(s)".

1.) AC Respec

2.) Species Change

 

Both of these are under the premise, of the question, to be offered on the CM. Therefore both were being looked at from a monetization aspect. Given that Species change has been a function of the game for quite some time now, I believe that the Devs looked into AC respec and for whatever reason determined that it just couldn't be done. At least not cost effectively.

 

If you go back and look you can find other interviews, blogs and live-casts from this same time frame. Much of the same information is discussed. But, AC respec is only found in the Dulfy interview.

 

From a monetisation point of view Species change was rolled out at the same time as the Appearance Kiosk and the addition of the Cathar species. If they had introduced Cathar into the game and then said to anyone wanting to play one, 'Abandon the character you've levelled so far and go level up the Cathar from level 1', I can imagine the uptake of Cathar would have been far lower, not to mention the forum rage.

So the need was put in place by the additional appearance of the Cathar species, not just those voices wanting to swap between pre-existing species.

 

A similar situation would only be put in place should Bioware ever decide to introduce additional ACs to the game. At this point you suddenly have a much larger audience who would be willing to take advantage of using an AC swap feature to switch into one of the new ACs.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Vhaegrant]

Sorry, I'm not one for breaking down a response and going point by point. Feel free to rationalize it any way you choose. Bottom line is, this is how MMOs get you to spend more time and more money. Flipping a switch for player accommodation is seldom a priority. Personally, I could have seen the advanced classes as specs and just make the character dual spec. But, since this is not the path they chose, they are not likely to change it.

 

The only reason I respond point by point is it tends to reduce the level of reading comprehension to which part of the post I am responding to.

 

Listening to your player base and accommodating their suggestions (mainly from internal focus groups and metrics not just from forum suggestions and other online commentary) is the ONLY way an MMO retains and grows its user base. The game may not change in the direction the hardcore 24/7 players desire, but they have to understand that the supporting playerbase tend to be those willing to pay for the cartel market vanity fluff and features that offer convenience (a trade between time and money).

 

When the game first came out we were told animal mounts would not be in, too technical, impacted on realism, why would you have a tauntaun on Tatooine, and other such statements from Devs and some Players... And yet with every Cartel Pack that rolls out it's the animal mounts that pull in the credits.

 

Look at the addition of Player Housing... it is a feature that adds absolutely nothing for the hardcore gamer, it's not additional maps for Warzones, it's not a high level Operation. But, it does set up a display case for a player to show off to others and reflect upon their achievements. And, in the long term a more visceral connection between the player and the sense of ownership they have over their character.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Superman_AZ]

The only reason I respond point by point is it tends to need less reading comprehension as to what part of the post I was responding to.

 

Listening to your player base and accommodating their suggestions (mainly from internal focus groups and metrics not just from forum suggestions and other online commentary) is the ONLY way an MMO retains and grows its user base.

 

I'm sure they listen to everything, weigh how much it will cost them, how much it will make them, and ultimately, how much it could lose them. Right now, there is a very vocal minority in the forums who seem to think the needs of the few, outweigh the needs of the many. I just don't see this as something they will ever actually add into the game.

[TUXs]

I'm sure they listen to everything, weigh how much it will cost them, how much it will make them, and ultimately, how much it could lose them. Right now, there is a very vocal minority in the forums who seem to think the needs of the few, outweigh the needs of the many. I just don't see this as something they will ever actually add into the game.

The vocal minority on this subject has been those crusading against it, not those who support the developers in wanting to add it eventually. It's the same 5-6 people arguing against it, the same typical antagonists from any other thread too, which makes their arguments that much more suspicious.

[horrorfaneightys]

The vocal minority on this subject has been those crusading against it, not those who support the developers in wanting to add it eventually. It's the same 5-6 people arguing against it, the same typical antagonists from any other thread too, which makes their arguments that much more suspicious.

 

I wouldn't call people arguing against it antagonistic. They just feel as strongly about not adding the option as you do about wanting it added.

[TUXs]

I wouldn't call people arguing against it antagonistic. They just feel as strongly about not adding the option as you do about wanting it added.

What I meant was, they are mostly (not entirely) the same people who argue against ANYTHING a player requests. They are the type of people who take the anti-player side in nearly everything, intentionally, seemingly just to stir things up and provoke replies. I could have guessed the names of most the people against this well before reading a reply.

[Vhaegrant]

I'm sure they listen to everything, weigh how much it will cost them, how much it will make them, and ultimately, how much it could lose them. Right now, there is a very vocal minority in the forums who seem to think the needs of the few, outweigh the needs of the many. I just don't see this as something they will ever actually add into the game.

 

I would say the vocal minority at this point is largely from the detractors of allowing an AC swap.

 

It's long been established that forums only reflect the views of a small percentage of the player base (unless a real gamebreaker is introduced) and usually those that do post have a preconceived agenda that favours their own self-interest. Only subscribers can post to the forums directly and this introduces some bias.

 

As to outweighing the needs of the many... you have a need to prescribe how others play the game? At no point does an AC swap feature negate the ability to go and roll up as many Advanced Classes as you like. What it does do is open up the game to a little more flexibility and convenience. Two aspects that appeal greatly to the F-2-P market out there (potential the larger market when talking about those that subscribe and those that don't)

[horrorfaneightys]

What I meant was, they are mostly (not entirely) the same people who argue against ANYTHING a player requests. They are the type of people who take the anti-player side in nearly everything, intentionally, seemingly just to stir things up and provoke replies. I could have guessed the names of most the people against this well before reading a reply.

 

Ah I misunderstood. Sorry about that. I completely get what you mean now. I can think of a couple of posters that seem to do that a lot. I think they enjoy forum PVP.

[Superman_AZ]

I would say the vocal minority at this point is largely from the detractors of allowing an AC swap.

 

It's long been established that forums only reflect the views of a small percentage of the player base (unless a real gamebreaker is introduced) and usually those that do post have a preconceived agenda that favours their own self-interest. Only subscribers can post to the forums directly and this introduces some bias.

 

As to outweighing the needs of the many... you have a need to prescribe how others play the game? At no point does an AC swap feature negate the ability to go and roll up as many Advanced Classes as you like. What it does do is open up the game to a little more flexibility and convenience. Two aspects that appeal greatly to the F-2-P market out there (potential the larger market when talking about those that subscribe and those that don't)

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/search.php?searchid=4890405

 

47 threads out of 147,704 total, just in General Discussion. The Hood toggle complainers have TWICE as many and they have been at BWs throat since launch. I know a handful of you really want to see this happen, and I wish someone with Gold Font would come in here and break the bad news to you that it never will. Even charging a ONE TIME fee to make the swap would still negate being forced to play two different characters, rather than one. There is still a good deal of lost profit to be had by allowing such a change.

[Vhaegrant]

http://www.swtor.com/community/search.php?searchid=4890405

 

47 threads out of 147,704 total, just in General Discussion. The Hood toggle complainers have TWICE as many and they have been at BWs throat since launch. I know a handful of you really want to see this happen, and I wish someone with Gold Font would come in here and break the bad news to you that it never will. Even charging a ONE TIME fee to make the swap would still negate being forced to play two different characters, rather than one. There is still a good deal of lost profit to be had by allowing such a change.

 

I'd rather encourage people to spend time in the game playing characters they have an emotional investment in, after all the core draw of SWTOR is the story, than forcing them to play a second character of the same class.

You seem to be of the mindset that the only way Bioware is going to get money out of a player is if they are tied to the keyboard until they have played through all 16 advanced classes. Newsflash, I doubt many players have that as an aspirational goal. Maybe getting one character of each class is achievable to many, but even that would be a long term goal. These limitations suggest to me that there is no reason to expect AC swap would result in any drop off of revenue.

 

Your link didn't work for me, but I guess you are trying to suggest that the number of threads should play a large part in how much importance a dev places on a subject. I would rather they took the time to consider the development costs. There is already a reasonable workaround for the hood toggle, wear a helmet or play a twilek not to mention there is usually a hood down variant of the robe out their somewhere that can be modded up.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Superman_AZ]

I'd rather encourage people to spend time in the game playing characters they have an emotional investment in, after all the core draw of SWTOR is the story, than forcing them to play a second character of the same class.

You seem to be of the mindset that the only way Bioware is going to get money out of a player is if they are tied to the keyboard until they have played through all 16 advanced classes. Newsflash, I doubt many players have that as an aspirational goal. Maybe getting one character of each class is achievable to many, but even that would be a long term goal. These limitations suggest to me that there is no reason to expect AC swap would result in any drop off of revenue.

 

And you appear to be laboring under the misconception that more than 1000 out of 2 million players actually care if they could swap their AC. If you want to continue to believe this is NEEDED for gameplay, be my guest. But I strongly doubt BW will implement something that .0005% of the player base is asking for.

[Vhaegrant]

And you appear to be laboring under the misconception that more than 1000 out of 2 million players actually care if they could swap their AC. If you want to continue to believe this is NEEDED for gameplay, be my guest. But I strongly doubt BW will implement something that .0005% of the player base is asking for.

 

I think the only people that should be quoting figures about SWTOR are those with the metrics to hand. After all we can all make up numbers to back up an argument. The only number I'm interested in when I put forward a suggestion is,1, my own opinion. Beyond that I'd rather the suggestion stood on its own merits.

 

I don't think it's a make or break feature. I can quite happily get through the game without it. In fact there are many other features that should take priority over AC swap.

But, if it was introduced in a way I could make use of it it would greatly enrich my connection with my characters (I would want a one shot cost per character that allows me to switch between ACs in much the same way as a respect, I would accept the need to level up both ACs to max to unlock this amount of flexibility, tbh this is the sort of thing legacy design was built for).

I appreciate that's a little too far for most and would have no issue if the feature was just rolled out as a consumable that allowed a oneshot AC swap, I'm sure this would appeal more to the many posters on this thread and other similar ones that just want a simple way of breathing life back into an abandoned character.

 

Where I would draw the line is if it was taken to a class or faction swap. Given the ingrained story based nature of the game this feels wrong (not to mention the hard technical issues of tracking the players choices).

Or, allowing a character access to the abilities of both Advanced Classes at the same time.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Superman_AZ]

I think the only people that should be quoting figures about SWTOR are those with the metrics to hand. After all we can all make up numbers to back up an argument.

 

I don't think it's a make or break feature. I can quite happily get through the game without it. In fact there are many other features that should take priority over AC swap.

But, if it was introduced in a way I could make use of it it would greatly enrich my connection with my characters (I would want a one shot cost per character that allows me to switch between ACs in much the same way as a respec). I appreciate that's a little too far for most and would have no issue if the feature was just rolled out as a consumable that allowed a oneshot AC swap, and this step would appeal more to the many posters on this thread and other similar ones that just want a simple way of breathing life back into an abandoned character.

 

Where I would draw the line is if it was taken to a class or faction swap. Given the ingrained story based nature of the game this feels wrong (not to mention the hard technical issues of tracking the players choices). Or, allowing a character access to the abilities of both Advanced Classes at the same time.

 

Use any number you like. If you want, we can open all 47 threads, and take a head count of the pro-swappers. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying 100k players of the 2M in the game would use this, that is still only 1/2 of 1% of the total players. Why would BW want to implement something that is not being demanded by 1M+ people? Like I said, if they thought it was a good idea, they would have already implemented it.

[Vhaegrant]

Use any number you like. If you want, we can open all 47 threads, and take a head count of the pro-swappers. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying 100k players of the 2M in the game would use this, that is still only 1/2 of 1% of the total players. Why would BW want to implement something that is not being demanded by 1M+ people? Like I said, if they thought it was a good idea, they would have already implemented it.

 

Again, only Bioware have the metrics and any real idea of how they would implement an AC swap feature. The fact that they've given it serious consideration suggests that they've had enough feedback from the player-base as a whole, and seen other MMOs that allow more freeform ability choice/ role selection. Honestly, if they thought it was a bad idea they would never have considered it in the first place.

[Superman_AZ]

Again, only Bioware have the metrics and any real idea of how they would implement an AC swap feature. The fact that they've given it serious consideration suggests that they've had enough feedback from the player-base as a whole, and seen other MMOs that allow more freeform ability choice/ role selection. Honestly, if they thought it was a bad idea they would never have considered it in the first place.

 

Would love to see links to proof of the "serious consideration". There is not even a yellow response in almost 240 pages. I've not seen it but I would gather it is 8 seconds of Eric M saying, "Yeah, we've considered it. Maybe in the future." and then not another word about it. But if you would like to point me in the direction of the "serious consideration", I would be "seriously" happy to look over it. In the meantime, I'll just get on with my day.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Superman_AZ

[Vhaegrant]

Would love to see links to proof of the "serious consideration". There is not even a yellow response in almost 240 pages. I've not seen it but I would gather it is 8 seconds of Eric M saying, "Yeah, we've considered it. Maybe in the future." and then not another word about it. But if you would like to point me in the direction of the "serious consideration", I would be "seriously" happy to look over it. In the meantime, I'll just get on with my day.

 

Here you go, 'cause I know it's too much effort for you to go back to the OP to actually read the comment that this thread has built itself up from. It's by the current lead designer Damion Schubert, who has probably got his plate more than full with the development of GSF, Galactic Strongholds and the potential for a level expansion to 60 towards the end of the new story arc. But if anyone is in a position to know what 'serious talks' are in SWTOR I guess he'd be the guy

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Dulfy and Damion Schubert

 

18. Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

 

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well. Doing a faction switch is considerably more difficult for us, though, due to the various quest flags set throughout the level up process, so this isn’t on the horizon anytime soon.

[Superman_AZ]

But if anyone is in a position to know what 'serious talks' are in SWTOR I guess he'd be the guy

 

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

Nov 16, 2012

 

So, let me get this straight. A 237 page thread, and "lots of people wanting this option", is all built on an 18 month old interview OUTSIDE of the SWTOR site? Really? This is the compelling evidence that makes Advanced Class swapping a sure thing in the SWTOR game environment?

 

An 18 month old interview, and no mention before, or after, and no comment in this thread for 237 pages by Eric or any other member of his team.

 

Excuse me for just a moment.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Superman_AZ