ETA on Advanced Class change?

[theSCARAYone]

S_T_O_P Necroing this f-ing post.

[Telaan]

S_T_O_P Necroing this f-ing post.

 

I'm sure no one would create new threads on the same topic.

[BuriDogshin]

you kind of destroyed your own argument when you brought up "pay to win" it means paying to have an advantage over other players via getting gear and other benefits that cannot be obtained trough any other way than spending lots and lots of real money.

 

What argument was that? I just asked a couple of questions. Oh, that's not what "pay to win" means, your definition is overly narrow, and describes only one extreme model of pay-to-win.

[ZahirS]

Nope. They already said no to it.

 

No to a No, means Yes.

 

Logic wins we need Advanced Class Respec, we do need it.

Edited May 6, 2014 by ZahirS

[Essence_of_Light]

No to a No, means Yes.

 

Logic wins we need Advanced Class Respec, we do need it.

 

Edited May 6, 2014 by Essence_of_Light

[Reno_Tarshil]

I don't think it's going to happen, nor does it need to.

[EzioMessi]

The only good argument I have seen in favour of AC change, is the following, I heard it from a random dude in General chat one day:

 

Since most people's issue with AC change is the possibility of a Sage with absolutely no melee experience suddenly becoming a Shadow, or something along those lines, how about put a small requirement for AC change. You need to have at least 1 character of each of the AC's of that class. So for example, if I have a Mara and a Guardian on the same server, I can (for a hefty payment, and with a 6 month cooldown) change my Guardian to a Sentinel, or my Mara to a Jugg.

 

That by far is the only sensible argument I have seen in favour of AC change.

[Savej]

Nope. They already said no to it.

 

They last thing they said on the matter was a strong "probably yes" in the same manner and breadth that they said race change would "probably be" opened up to us. The quote is in this thread and on Dulfy.

[Ratajack]

How effectively different is this from WoW's recently-introduced ability to buy a fully-leveled toon for US$60 ?

(other than WoW giving you Lvl90 gear as well, and your proposal requiring someone first level a toon to max the usual way).(see details of WoW "Boost" at battle.net)

 

I personally oppose pay-to-win, which WoW's new "boost" smacks of. So, given how class balance changes over time, does pay-to-change-AC have a pay-to-win component or risk to it?

 

I do not feel any desire to change any of my toons' ACs, since I have all the ACs Imp side (and all the base classes Pub side), so I may not understand the motivation of those that do.

 

You answered your own question, even as you were asking it.

 

Class balances change over time.

 

For example, you level a mercenary because they are the FOTM, the OP class at healing and DPS. Mercenary then gets nerfed and powertech gets buffed. Now, powertech is the FOTM, the OP class at DPS. Paying to change AC from the nerfed mercenary to the OP powertech would, IMO, be P2W.

[Ratajack]

Plethora of reasons? Do you TRULY believe that the following are "reasons"? Because this is all I've gotten out of these threads.

"you didn't earn it"

"you won't know how to play"

"you'll need new armor"

"you're lazy"

 

Those aren't "reasons" - those are excuses.

 

I can give reasons and list examples as to why I feel it's warranted every time someone asks me to, yet neither you nor Rat can give me ONE freaking reason why YOU think this is a bad idea...

 

Give me ONE reason this would be bad for the game - try your best to convince me it's a bad idea...please! I'm honestly open to it...but so far, nobody has even tried, instead they simply list off excuses and insist on punitive reasons for restricting it.

 

The reasons given why this should not be implemented are no less valid than those given by yourself and other posters as to why this would be good for the game. If you are going to refer to the reasons given as to why this would not be good for the game as excuses, then you have given only excuses yourself.

 

I don't have time to level that new class I want to play

I have all these achievements on this character

I have items I want to keep

I don't want to go through the same story again

I don't want to have to level a new character.

I don't care what the devs say about AC's being different classes. They are wrong and I am right.

 

Give me ONE reason this would be good for the game - try your best to convince me it's a good idea. So far, all I have seen from you is excuses why people should be handed a new class.

[Savej]

Then they can relevel as the new class, if BW ever uses my suggested compromise to implement class changes.

 

There are some things that I've gotten on my main (vehicles, gear shells, schematics) that aren't available in the game anymore. Nevermind getting the valor and the titles and the datacrons and porting my friends/ignore lists... I could see your point if you were talking about a base class switch - that's a completely different character. But an AC switch? Nope. Grinding the same companions, gear, stories is just an OCD exercise, really, especially when its a button push in other games.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Savej

[Ratajack]

They last thing they said on the matter was a strong "probably yes" in the same manner and breadth that they said race change would "probably be" opened up to us. The quote is in this thread and on Dulfy.

 

You are correct that the last statement, from well over a year ago, is that species changes and AC swapping would "likely happen eventually". There was NO time frame given for either.

 

Since that time we have seen species changes implemented. Species changes are COSMETIC only, though, and NOT a change in fundamental game play mechanics for the player. Class changes WOULD BE a change in fundamental game play mechanics for the player.

 

Since that statement from well over a year ago, there has been NOTHING further from the devs regarding this topic, despite countless threads in the forums, including this 460+ page thread. There has not been a single word, post from the devs or even a hint of a whisper as to whether or not class changes are even still on the wall of crazy.

 

We don't even know how difficult it would be to code in a class change. Some have said it is simply a matter of flipping a switch. It may be that simple. It may also be that flipping that switch will also cause many other switches to flip, making it much more difficult to code in a class change. We, the general game population have no way of knowing how difficult it will be.

 

I have said many times that I think we may very well see class changes implemented, but I do not think it will be in the foreseeable future. IMO, if they ever decide to implement class changes, it will likely be at a time when this game is in desperate need of something to save it.

[Khevar]

IMO, if they ever decide to implement class changes, it will likely be at a time when this game is in desperate need of something to save it.

If the game were in trouble, why would something like this "save it"?

[Ratajack]

There are some things that I've gotten on my main (vehicles, gear shells, schematics) that aren't available in the game anymore. Nevermind getting the valor and the titles and the datacrons and porting my friends/ignore lists... I could see your point if you were talking about a base class switch - that's a completely different character. But an AC switch? Nope. Grinding the same companions, gear, stories is just an OCD exercise, really, especially when its a button push in other games.

 

Changing class is NOT a button push in most other MMO's. There may be one, two or even a few that allow you to change class. I am not aware of any successful mainstream or top tier MMO's (if you want to call them that) that do, however.

 

Your concerns regarding vehicles, valor, etc. is exactly why I proposed a compromise that would allow you to keep those vehicles, valor and everything else and play that new class, while at the same time addressing the concerns of those against class changes.

 

Class change would reduce character level to level 10.

Planetary quests are reset.

Class quests are unaffected.

Companions are unaffected. All companions remain and remain at current affection level.

Passive XP boost to help offset XP loss from any completed story quests is granted until previous level is reached.

 

The XP boost is only effective until previous level is reached to prevent exploitation by players might want to change AC at low level in order to gain the XP boost to level to max level.

 

This suggested compromise does require a little effort on your part, but you do get to keep all those shinies you have on that character.

[Ratajack]

If the game were in trouble, why would something like this "save it"?

 

I don't know that it would save this game if this game were in trouble. I am only stating my opinion that if this game were in trouble, the devs may see allowing class changes as a possible way to "save it".

 

If this game is not in trouble now (and it does not appear to be) why would they need to implement class changes at this time? Why would they need to implement them in the foreseeable future if the game is not in trouble?

[LordArtemis]

If the game were in trouble, why would something like this "save it"?

 

The same reason anything would.....it is something that the game does not offer at present nor is offered across the market in most games. So one could think it is possible the change could come if the game was in trouble.

[Savej]

The reasons given why this should not be implemented are no less valid than those given by yourself and other posters as to why this would be good for the game. If you are going to refer to the reasons given as to why this would not be good for the game as excuses, then you have given only excuses yourself.

 

I don't have time to level that new class I want to play

I have all these achievements on this character

I have items I want to keep

I don't want to go through the same story again

I don't want to have to level a new character.

I don't care what the devs say about AC's being different classes. They are wrong and I am right.

 

Give me ONE reason this would be good for the game - try your best to convince me it's a good idea. So far, all I have seen from you is excuses why people should be handed a new class.

 

It would be good for the game because it would add fun for many players, enabling them to do a lot more with characters they're already invested in. Asking for people to throw away their characters and start over just for a non-base-class change (available in almost every other game in the industry) is borderline petty by today's gaming standards. It's daunting and I imagine going through the process turns off far more gamers than it turns on.

 

Also, it's a chance for BW to make money - good for the game if some of that money goes back into other development projects (like new base classes, ACs, class stories, etc).

Edited May 6, 2014 by Savej

[Khevar]

I don't know that it would save this game if this game were in trouble. I am only stating my opinion that if this game were in trouble, the devs may see allowing class changes as a possible way to "save it".

Fair enough. I guess I'm just surprised to see you say something like this.

 

If this were something the devs might think of to save a game that is in trouble, that would imply there's something good about the suggestion to begin with.

[Savej]

Changing class is NOT a button push in most other MMO's. There may be one, two or even a few that allow you to change class. I am not aware of any successful mainstream or top tier MMO's (if you want to call them that) that do, however.

 

Your concerns regarding vehicles, valor, etc. is exactly why I proposed a compromise that would allow you to keep those vehicles, valor and everything else and play that new class, while at the same time addressing the concerns of those against class changes.

 

Class change would reduce character level to level 10.

Planetary quests are reset.

Class quests are unaffected.

Companions are unaffected. All companions remain and remain at current affection level.

Passive XP boost to help offset XP loss from any completed story quests is granted until previous level is reached.

 

The XP boost is only effective until previous level is reached to prevent exploitation by players might want to change AC at low level in order to gain the XP boost to level to max level.

 

This suggested compromise does require a little effort on your part, but you do get to keep all those shinies you have on that character.

 

Wow has a non-base-class change available right now - they even have dual non-base-class-swapping - push of a button. Saying "but Wow doesn't call their specs Advanced Classes" is straw man semantics if they are functionally equivalent and they are - we've been through that before. Disagree all you want, try to ignore the argument all you want, I know you're a bit fanatical about this subject (over 600 posts?). But ACs are not full classes as they exist in other class-based-games no matter what some dev/producer may have said or thought or intended when he was building/releasing the game. Outside of an ancient quote you've got nothing to back up your position - you're carrying the torch of some guy that doesn't even work there anymore.

 

As for effort: if everyone that tried this game played as much as me SWTOR's problems would be over - I only hope they don't for their sakes. I stand against forcing others to endure many of the grinds that I've gone through because I know most people will not endure them and I don't see the benefit in losing the smarter players over many of them. Creating tedium for its own sake in a game is, generally, unsupportable.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Savej

[BuriDogshin]

I asked: given how class balance changes over time, does pay-to-change-AC have a pay-to-win component or risk to it?

You answered your own question, even as you were asking it.

 

Class balances change over time.

 

For example, you level a mercenary because they are the FOTM, the OP class at healing and DPS. Mercenary then gets nerfed and powertech gets buffed. Now, powertech is the FOTM, the OP class at DPS. Paying to change AC from the nerfed mercenary to the OP powertech would, IMO, be P2W.

I guess that makes sense. Me, I'd rather just level one of each advanced class. Which I have. Leveling my most recent 55, a Jug, took 57 hours of total playing time. Probably could have done it in less time if I hadn't wanted to see the whole Sith Warrior story from a female toon perspective (my 55 Mara is male.) Endgame content is fun, but so are the stories. I mean,

 

Who doesn't want to watch a hot warrior chick (nearly) force-choking the life out of Quinn?

 

[Vhaegrant]

You answered your own question, even as you were asking it.

 

Class balances change over time.

 

For example, you level a mercenary because they are the FOTM, the OP class at healing and DPS. Mercenary then gets nerfed and powertech gets buffed. Now, powertech is the FOTM, the OP class at DPS. Paying to change AC from the nerfed mercenary to the OP powertech would, IMO, be P2W.

 

How so?

'Pay to Win' (P2W) is a term that gets bandied around in discussions and usually in a misunderstood way.

 

P2W is paying for something in a Cash shop that can not be earned in-game.

 

[Edit: the above in bold was pre-coffee and made far to many assumptions between brain and keyboard, after being made aware of the omission by LordArtemis, my original statement should be closer to....

 

P2W is paying for an item from a cash shop that has higher in-game stats than the 'Best in Slot' item earned in game.

 

Sorry for any confusion ]

 

At no point would the player who swapped their character from Mercenary to Powertech gain any additional abilities or gear that an existing Powertech wouldn't already have.

 

Depending on the system of AC swap they would have to pay out the credits to raise the Powertechs abilities up to max rank, and possible invest in a new set of gear (although the gear argument as a reason against allowing AC swap is already flawed as a Powertech respec from Advanced Prototype to Shield Tech requires a full set of gear as well)

Edited May 6, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Vhaegrant]

The timeline is ... never.

The last quote on the subject by a dev was by the Lead Designer, who said it had been given serious consideration and would likely happen. No time frame was given.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Dulfy and Damion Schubert

 

18. Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

 

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well. Doing a faction switch is considerably more difficult for us, though, due to the various quest flags set throughout the level up process, so this isn’t on the horizon anytime soon.

Full quote included above as it's not been mentioned in awhile

 

Sorry folks, I know it's been said (repeatedly) in this thread, but this is just not in the cards. Without regard to if you consider AC's to be different classes, switching them would be on par difficultly wise.

Er, no, not really.

The Class chosen in SWTOR is integrally tied to the characters story and as much as gender requires a lot of data tracking through the choices you have made. You may not notice it if you only play through a Class story once but there are many subtle changes in story depending on the choices you have made. These are not the sort of changes that completely alter the path of the story but rather a sentence or two spoken by an NPC, or a brief cutscene here and there.

An AC swap, sharing the same story (and gender), has zero impact on these data tracking points.

 

You have a myriad of skills that may, or may not, have been trained as you leveled, and many of those are AC specific. What do you do, refund cash for the skills they trained in the old AC? Auto-train them in every skill up to the same level they are at? Try to map each skill 1 to 1 with an equivalent skill in the other AC? Any of these present potential problems in an auto transfer.

I tried to outline some of the considerations behind AC swapping, and areas that suggest how abilities are tracked in game in one of my previous posts ->

With the usual caveat that 'Armchair programming is a lot easier than real programming' I'd say that's a little more complex than the solution needs to be.

If you look at how the game already handles Class abilities when you go to a Class trainer. Before you chose an Advanced Class the Class Trainer will only display the core abilities for that Class. Only after you select your Advanced Class will the trainer then show the additional tab with the Advanced Class abilities on it.

 

This suggests to me that the abilities in the game all have unique identifiers and are already grouped into categories dependant on Class or Advanced Class.

 

Along side this, even if an ability is there on the Class Trainers panel you don't have to purchase it. This means there is the means to track and store the rank you currently have.

 

I would have thought the most you would need to do is have the progression of all abilities tracked, not just the ones you currently have access through because of your current AC choice.

 

Without knowing exactly how these variables are stored long term it makes it hard to estimate how easy or hard it would be to implement such a conditional.

At most, swapping over to the other AC would swap the AC tabs seen on the Class trainer and the player would have to buy up those abilities to their max level.

 

Then you get into gear. What do you do with the Guardian who switches to Sentinel before realizing all of his armor will have to be scrapped? Give him a free set? Try to convert his armor to an equivalent he can wear? Tell him tough cookies, he just needs to buy a new set? Can you imagine the kvetching in the forums for that?

The gear argument is extremely poor. You've picked perhaps the one example of any AC swap (The ACs of Jedi Knights/Sith Warriors) where they use a different class of armour (Heavy/Medium) all other Classes use the same armour type between their ACs. Adaptive armour goes some way to mitigating this.

The argument falls apart completely however when you consider how many of the AC Specialisations require a new gear set when swapping over.

To use your choice of Class, Jedi Knight, a Juggernaut going from Focus (AOE DPS spec with auto crits, gear should focus on Power and Surge, a little Accuracy if you want to put it up to 100% hit rate, although I've never really needed it, offhand focus) to Defense (Tanking spec gear should focus on defense rating, offhand shield), requires a complete gear swap.

 

And on top of all that, it would encourage FOTM builds, which I think hardly needs more encouragement.

FOTM builds are a result of game balancing and people following the herd. I know many players that stop playing their character altogether as they feel it has been nerfed. AC swapping could function as a natural pressure valve allowing players to play as the FOTM, and highlighting to Bioware through Metrics that there is a perceived imbalance between ACs.

 

It's not that hard to level a toon in this game, especially if it's not your first. Just level a second with the other AC.

And if it's so easy to level a new character why use that as an impediment to swapping AC? You are not getting a second character with all that brings.

It may surprise you, but not everyone has vast amounts of disposable time and the time they do have available they wish to use effectively. Not only that, many more gamers were drawn to SWTOR on the promise of story and associate strongly with their character and the companion stories. They don't want to see Torian running around with another Bounty Hunter. They want to be able to have the full range of Bounty Hunter options available on the one Bounty Hunter.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Ratajack]

Fair enough. I guess I'm just surprised to see you say something like this.

 

If this were something the devs might think of to save a game that is in trouble, that would imply there's something good about the suggestion to begin with.

 

No. It does not, in my mind, imply that there is anything good in it. In fact, quite the opposite. The fact that it has not yet been implemented despite countless threads clamoring for it, IMO, implies that the devs may share my opinion that it would not be good for the game.

 

That said, however, if this game ever starts to fail, the devs may see a "bad thing" as something that might bring people back.

[Ratajack]

Wow has a non-base-class change available right now - they even have dual non-base-class-swapping - push of a button. Saying "but Wow doesn't call their specs Advanced Classes" is straw man semantics if they are functionally equivalent and they are - we've been through that before. Disagree all you want, try to ignore the argument all you want, I know you're a bit fanatical about this subject (over 600 posts?). But ACs are not full classes as they exist in other class-based-games no matter what some dev/producer may have said or thought or intended when he was building/releasing the game. Outside of an ancient quote you've got nothing to back up your position - you're carrying the torch of some guy that doesn't even work there anymore.

 

As for effort: if everyone that tried this game played as much as me SWTOR's problems would be over - I only hope they don't for their sakes. I stand against forcing others to endure many of the grinds that I've gone through because I know most people will not endure them and I don't see the benefit in losing the smarter players over many of them. Creating tedium for its own sake in a game is, generally, unsupportable.

 

Your AC IS your class. You can feel free to think you know better then the devs, if you want. I know admitting that your AC is your class throws a huge monkey wrench in yor desire to see class changes implemented. I doubt you would accept the word of the devs even if they popped into this thread to say that your AC is your class.

 

The biggest difference in this game is that instead of picking your class at creation, you pick your class at level 10 or later.

 

IMO, they should have made it clearer at creation, such as:

 

Gender

Race

Story

Class (AC)

Customization

 

Enter Game

 

That fact that they did not do that does not in any way lessen the fact that the devs see your AC as your class.

[Ratajack]

It would be good for the game because it would add fun for many players, enabling them to do a lot more with characters they're already invested in. Asking for people to throw away their characters and start over just for a non-base-class change (available in almost every other game in the industry) is borderline petty by today's gaming standards. It's daunting and I imagine going through the process turns off far more gamers than it turns on.

 

Also, it's a chance for BW to make money - good for the game if some of that money goes back into other development projects (like new base classes, ACs, class stories, etc).

 

So, your "reason" is that people would not have to throw away a character to play that new class.

 

Luckily for you, my suggested compromise would eliminate the need for a player to "throw away a character" and would allow them to keep that character and all they have achieved/obtained. Does that mean that my suggested compromise would be acceptable to you, since it covers the concern of your "reason". People would not have to throw away a character with my suggested compromise.

 

As far as "non-base-class" changes being available in almost every game in the industry, how many games in the industry allow you to choose your class at level 10 or later? That would be very few at most, if any, I believe.