ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Jeweledleah]

I have learn to not care. Give them AC change or don't. But what does AC mean. Advanced CLASS. So it is in an essence a class. But if it is allowed I ask for one thing and one thing only. Give them a tag that says they have switched AC. That way those that are apposed to it can CHOSE as is their choice to not group with them.

 

All problems now solved. You dont have to worry about NINJA looting for their new AC and you dont have to worry about them not knowing what they are doing. Sure going to make queues longer and such but hey its a solution.

 

And on the not of stories. Once you hit max level YOUR class story is no longer relevant. Its now only a companion issue.

 

Eddit for comment

 

companions, class specific titles, etc are still relevant, even at end game.

 

I could put emphasis on Advanced and the whole meaning changes to support my claim not yours. and we're back at the start.

 

I'm not sure marking for AC change is in any way shape or form a good idea. smacks a little too much of condoning segregation.

 

not to mention, there are people who cannot play their spec even if its the only spec they leveled with, and there's a good chance that there will be plenty of people who switched AC and are actually good players, that know their knew spec and can play it well. so we're going to separate people based on superficial criteria?

or we could just do like we do know and when pugged with incompetent player either try to give the advice or just put them on ignore and never group with them again. based purely on their performance not preemptive superstition.

 

I don't even care if its implemented or not. whether it is, or isn't - its not skin of my back. its just reasons people give for not implementing it are of the "people are wrong on the internet" variety

[Vhaegrant]

I'm not going to read 82 pages to try to follow this...

Would it really have hurt to at least read the first couple of pages, I mean the last Official comment by Bioware regarding AC swapping is in the OP. Not to mention most of the arguments still being thrown back and forth can be found in the first couple of pages.

 

When you choose an AC, you are warned that the choice is final and can't be undone. As a matter of principal, I am against changing AC because everyone agreed ahead of time that they wouldn't.

Things change, with MMOs it tends to favour more casual play styles. I've already mentioned the pretty draconian movement restrictions that were in force when the game first launched that have been eased off considerably due to player feedback.

 

If we allow AC change, we might as well take it one step further and allow class change. I'm playing my Consular and suddenly a boss that would be much easier with a Knight, I'll just class change and this will be as easy as cake!

Why do you have to take it to an extreme? I've followed this thread and I can't remember a single pro-AC change asking for the ability for Class swapping. And no one wanting the AC swap to be free if it ever was implemented.

 

We, as players in any MMO, select a class that we want to experience and play it to the end. If we want to experience a different class, we roll up a different toon. AC is the exact same. There is a world of difference between the Sage and the Shadow. Switching them is no trivial thing. It's like a pro wrestler suddenly wanting to be a surgeon. It's rediculous.

There are a few mechanical differences between the ACs. This results in a differing playstyle that can be mastered in an hour or two. There is absolutely no difference in their story/companions which is the majority of content you would have to sit through. Switching them is pretty easy in my opinion, if you advocate being able to play differing mechanical styles on differing alts it is no different to having the differing mechanics on the same character. It's more like a pro-wrestler wanting to be a pro-boxer.

 

I vote "No"

I vote "Yes"

With the proviso that it has a reasonable cost associated with.

[Jeweledleah]

Never I hope. Although I would be in favor of a system like in TSW. Have a "wheel" like they have but for each Class, not a one toon to play every style. At least not in this game. It works well for TSW but I like the differences' between the classes in this game.

 

there will still be differences between classes.

 

force users won't be able to use blasters. knights and warriors still won't be able to heal, nor will agents suddenly gain ability to tank. new abilities will not be added.

its just a bit of extra flexibility within existing classes.

 

forgive me if I'm wrong though, I haven't gotten all that far yet in TSW, but isn't that game classless and every character can eventually play every role? you just have origins which you cannot change (kinda like in TOR, you cannot switch factions or base classes)

[Knorlac]

I'd only agree with it, if they made it a one time possibility let's say up to lvl 30 for those people who feel that they made the wrong choice in the beginning . And 30 lvls is already a looong time to figure that out IMO. I'm against a system that would allow it to happen again and again just for convenience.

 

BW stated that they see ACs as classes...yes, that's subject to change like everything else in the game, but it still invalidates those arguing that ACs are not classes anyway at least for the time being IMO.

 

That said I think it really comes down to preference. I don't see any arguments for or against AC change that are more valid than the others. Maybe they should find some way to put it to a vote somehow and not just through the forums that are frequented by only a small percentage of players, if they're even still thinking about this at all, that is.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Knorlac

[TUXs]

BW stated that they see ACs as classes...yes, that's subject to change like everything elde in the game, but it still invalidates those arguing that ACs are not classes anyway at least for the time being IMO.

 

As suggested above, please read the VERY FIRST post of this thread...it wouldn't kill you and it would at least make you look like you didn't just hit REPLY without...here, lemme just help you out...here's the quote:

Quote: Originally Posted by Dulfy and Damion Schubert

18. Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

 

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well. Doing a faction switch is considerably more difficult for us, though, due to the various quest flags set throughout the level up process, so this isn’t on the horizon anytime soon.

[Knorlac]

As suggested above, please read the VERY FIRST post of this thread...it wouldn't kill you and it would at least make you look like you didn't just hit REPLY without...here, lemme just help you out...here's the quote:

 

Sorry, but I fail to see, why this contradicts my statement.(And I read a lot more than page 1 of this thread over its long time of existence) This BW quote doesn't say that they don't see ACs as different classes. The quote tells us, that at a certain time, they were thinking about the possibility of AC change and that at that time, they came to the conclusion that it would come eventually. Like I said, it's definitely a thing that might change in the future.

 

Some of the pro AC change crowd argue that it should happen because ACs are not different classes in their opinions, but there is nothing in the BW statement to support this.

 

I'm not even saying, that it shouldn't happen because ACs ARE different classes...none of both opinions in that matter is more valid than the other IMO.

 

Would it be a 1000 times easier to implement it for ACs for obvious reasons than to do it for base classes? Of course it would. Does that mean ACs are in fact not different classes? Nope.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Knorlac

[TUXs]

Sorry, but I fail to see, why this contradicts my statement.(And I read a lot more than page 1 of this thread over its long time of existence) This BW quote doesn't say that they don't see ACs as different classes. The quote tells us, that at a certain time, they were thinking about the possibility of AC change and that at that time, they came to the conclusion that it would come eventually. Like I said, it's definitely a thing that might change in the future.

 

Some of the pro AC change crowd argue that it should happen because ACs are not different classes in their opinions, but there is nothing in the BW statement to support this.

 

Would it be a 1000 times easier to implement it for ACs for obvious reasons than to do it for base classes? Of course it would. Does that mean ACs are in fact not different classes? Nope.

 

My mistake, I misread what you had written.

 

I'm not trying to equate AC to Class - ACs are branches from your base class, which has EXACTLY the same base skills despite AC choice. There's no difference, to me, between switching AC or respec'ing your tree - something I do daily. Class is what matters - not AC.

[Spatology]

stop necro'ing this thread.

 

thanks

[Spatology]

reason's this is a good idea: a minority of the playerbase wants a tool of this nature to change their "main" character so they dont have to start over or can retain "flair" items/titles their characters have earned.

 

reason's this is a bad idea: it allows people to completely change their character's playstyle at the eldergame level. it under values some classes that cant provide all 3 roles on demand, assumeing the tool is like field respec. it further deseminates the variety and uniqueness of the classes by expanding each classes utility for given encounters.

 

 

Until further class balance and meta discussions for the future of class variance are had, i think this is a bad idea.

[Suntaru]

reason's this is a good idea: a minority of the playerbase wants a tool of this nature to change their "main" character so they dont have to start over or can retain "flair" items/titles their characters have earned.

 

reason's this is a bad idea: it allows people to completely change their character's playstyle at the eldergame level. it under values some classes that cant provide all 3 roles on demand, assumeing the tool is like field respec. it further deseminates the variety and uniqueness of the classes by expanding each classes utility for given encounters.

 

 

Until further class balance and meta discussions for the future of class variance are had, i think this is a bad idea.

 

I am in Agreement with you and I might add one. Reason #3 is Bioware sells extra Character slots. byt being able to just switch AC's , that will start taking extra cash away from Bioware even though it will not be a lot, it is still a loss of revenue from that angle.

[Jeweledleah]

I am in Agreement with you and I might add one. Reason #3 is Bioware sells extra Character slots. byt being able to just switch AC's , that will start taking extra cash away from Bioware even though it will not be a lot, it is still a loss of revenue from that angle.

 

don't subscribers get 16 slots as a base? which is exactly enough to have one character per AC per faction. so the only reason for people to create more alts (buying character slots in a process) is if they are either not subscribers and/or wish to replay character stories.

 

I do love how the post you are replying to uses minority on positive but not the negative.

 

if minority of players wants it, wouldn't it stand to reasons that only minority of players would use it? and if its just a minority of players, wouldn't' the impact be far far less than what some of you claim it would be?

 

moreover. not everyone likes to replay the same story over and over. its just not fun to them. and you don't really get to see how your character really works until about lvl 46 (which is where you get your top tier talent). last but not least, for some people, there's an attachment to the main character, regardless of the playstyle. they just play that particular character and recreating them just for another AC is not the same.

 

classes will still stay unique. you won't be able to user lightsabers as a bounty hunter, blasters as an inquisitor, force lightning as a warrior, or death from above as an agent. you'll still have limitations - gear, abilities, animations etc. switching between roles on a fly is already possible. so why is it ok for 2 roles but not 3?

 

no bioware never said they didn't want the same character to perform the same role. the restriction is purely arbitrary. but fine you don't want people to change it on a fly for whatever reason (reasons that I find to be, quite honestly - unreasonable) the restriction could be made. change only once a month or something like that. similar to name changes, legacy changes, etc. make it cost the same amount of cartel coins. per change

 

there you go.

 

the decision is still something you cannot just make on a whim, its costly, it will give bioware a bit of extra profit, and it will give that bit of extra flexibility to those who want it.

win/win!

[Andryah]

don't subscribers get 16 slots as a base?

 

12 per server... but you can unlock up to 10 more.. for a total of 22 per server.

 

But your essential point is valid. Besides.. this game is made for rolling alts.. and so you can have all the ACs you want if you want them without mega-grinding. I get that some players prefer to focus and play on only one or two characters....and so they want AC changes....but that kind of goes against the spirit of the design of the game IMO.

 

And yes... I am an altaholic so I have a different perspective then people who only roll a character or two.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Andryah

[JeramieCrowe]

Wow, this old debate still? Did we forget all the devs stating how ACs are complete, full-on classes by design? Did we forget how Damion has said this about ACs before and the player base and most other devs still don't want it? We must have also forgotten how doing this will crap all over purist-type class player, while the hybrid type has what he wants already.

 

Anyhoo, I doubt it happens. But we'll see.

[branmakmuffin]

stop necro'ing this thread.

 

thanks

I sure hope that was intentional irony.

 

Wow, this old debate still? Did we forget all the devs stating how ACs are complete, full-on classes by design? Did we forget how Damion has said this about ACs before and the player base and most other devs still don't want it? We must have also forgotten how doing this will crap all over purist-type class player, while the hybrid type has what he wants already.

What the heck is a "purist-type class player" and how does he or she maintain that "purity?"

Edited October 24, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[JeramieCrowe]

What the heck is a "purist-type class player" and how does he or she maintain that "purity?"

 

Back in June of 2011, this same debate had been going for a while. At that time, a dev stated that AC-switching would "probably" come into game. That was said in 2011, by Georg Zoeller after having discussed it with Damion, and in an interview with TOR-TALK:

 

We are looking at allowing you to change advanced classes, but it's definitely something that we wouldn't want you to take lightly. So, it would probably be expensive to do so. At current, the plan is we will probably allow it, but you will not be able to do this very easily, like it's not something your character will do every day.

 

In that discussion thread where this quote appeared, many different viewpoints were shared. I made an observation, addressing many of the points raised, but focusing on the crux:

 

Whether or not AC's are locked won't break the game. This debate really has nothing to do with mechanics. It doesn't have anything to do with story, nor end-game, nor whether someone has a lot of time, or little time. It has nothing to do with PvP, or PvE, raid, or flashpoint. It really has not much to do with companions, either. This really doesn't have much to do with whether AC's are classes or not.

 

This debate comes down to playstyle, specifically two different playstyles that almost neatly divides the playerbase in two, and are at direct odds with each other:

 

Flexibility versus Distinction.

 

My preference is for class distinction. Even in games where there is a lot of flexibility, I don't use it. I'm a purist through and through. I have issues with people being able to merely click a button and become a class that I've spent weeks upon weeks leveling, outfitting, learning, and getting to know. My distinction disappears.

 

On the other side, we have people who really could care less what other people are doing with their characters. They only want to be able to have fun and do one thing one day and another thing the next. They could care less even about their own class distinction, as long as they're having fun.

 

Now, the traditional class model of themepark MMOs (until the last couple of years) was for each class to be distinct, specializing in only one role, and to be permanent.

 

Enter flexibility.

 

BioWare knows flexibility is just as important as distinction. Their class design shows that. To many of us, they have already struck the best balance between flexibility and distinction better than any MMO to date.

 

As a person who prefers distinction, I could be insisting that classes be put back to pure roles for the sake of distinction. I could be rallying to make them distinctly different than any other class. But I'm not. I am willing to accept BioWare's current compromise on the behalf of those that prefer flexibility.

 

Now, and think about this, aren't the pro-flexibility crowd doing just that by asking for even more flexibility at the expense of the other playstyle? I submit that, yes, they are. To ask for more flexibility by opening up AC's is tipping the already perfect balance too far to the other playstyle at the expense of mine.

 

So, in short, BioWare's current balance should be left as is, especially since AC-switching is "probably" already in at a high cost. That's plenty of flexibility with this class system.

 

If the plan clear back in 2011 was that they would "probably allow it", how much longer do you think it will take based on Damion's quote?

 

I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Darth_Wicked]

12 per server... but you can unlock up to 10 more.. for a total of 22 per server. (...)

 

And still that's not enough. We need more. Much more.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Darth_Wicked

[Savej]

Wow, this old debate still? Did we forget all the devs stating how ACs are complete, full-on classes by design? Did we forget how Damion has said this about ACs before and the player base and most other devs still don't want it? We must have also forgotten how doing this will crap all over purist-type class player, while the hybrid type has what he wants already.

 

Anyhoo, I doubt it happens. But we'll see.

 

I missed it? The last Damion Schubert quote I have is: http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

 

<<

18. Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

 

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well. Doing a faction switch is considerably more difficult for us, though, due to the various quest flags set throughout the level up process, so this isn’t on the horizon anytime soon.

>>

 

As for your comments about what the "majority of players" want, I can counter this easily with "most players want it".

[LanceCorporalDan]

Re-roll

[JeramieCrowe]

I missed it? The last Damion Schubert quote I have is: http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

 

<<

18. Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

 

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well. Doing a faction switch is considerably more difficult for us, though, due to the various quest flags set throughout the level up process, so this isn’t on the horizon anytime soon.

>>

 

As for your comments about what the "majority of players" want, I can counter this easily with "most players want it".

 

Sorry, I was speaking of numerous polls and player and dev comments that were made since 2011 that you probably aren't privy to. Refer to my comment and quotes above.

[Jeweledleah]

12 per server... but you can unlock up to 10 more.. for a total of 22 per server.

 

But your essential point is valid. Besides.. this game is made for rolling alts.. and so you can have all the ACs you want if you want them without mega-grinding. I get that some players prefer to focus and play on only one or two characters....and so they want AC changes....but that kind of goes against the spirit of the design of the game IMO.

 

And yes... I am an altaholic so I have a different perspective than people who only roll a character or two.

 

I'm an altoholic myself. currently, I have 14 I actually play and one that was created because title professional was introduced to the game (yeah yeah, I know, I'm not at all original, but it was amusing and still is). I have more slots unlocked that I currently use... for reasons.

 

but I also play with people who don't play the way i do and no amount of incentives/different stories/ whatever will get them to level a character of another class, let alone second character of the same class, just to have a second AC. well... maybe huge xp buff that would allow them to skip everything, but the personal story (and for some, not even that, because they already know the story, its not fun anymore). it would be nice if they had pleasing options as well. I'm not sure what spirit of the game is anymore. now that we have done away with class specific content. hell, I love alts, and I'm starting to get seriously tired of 50 to 55 grind.

 

people who like alts either already bought all the character slots they wanted... or will buy them in a future anyways.

 

as for the "purist" debate.

 

how does having more options affect you? they would not be taking away your ability to play as a purist. you will still have it.

 

itys actualy kinda reminds me of the s/s relationship debate. making characters available to both genders doesn't take your ability to have heterosexual romance. its just adds ability for other people to have their s/s romance.

 

its kinda the same way here. if you don't wish to ever switch your AC? you don't have to. if you don't ever want to respec - you don't do it, right? even though we currently have ability to respec for free as many times as we wish, as subscribers. I remember back when you're respec fee got more and more unwieldy if you did it more than once a week. and here we are. unlimited respecs as much as we want them, free of credit charge. but you don't have to take advantage of them. so...

[Spatology]

Re-roll

 

and....../thread

[Darth_Wicked]

Re-roll

 

Some of us suggested that already but people answered with fire and brimstone, since if you take into account some comments, you'd actually think that this is NOT a game - hence, NOT an hobby - and people have established an agenda, concerning stuff they wanna do before the World ends.

[Jeweledleah]

Some of us suggested that already but people answered with fire and brimstone, since if you take into account some comments, you'd actually think that this is NOT a game - hence, NOT an hobby - and people have established an agenda, concerning stuff they wanna do before the World ends.

 

no. advice to reroll doesn't wash precisely because its the game. aka it should be enjoyed. and not everyone enjoys rerolling.

 

games should be fun, not work. its people who are against advanced class change that try to make it more srs business then it really is

[LordArtemis]

Well, I haven't seen any new suggestions or pros/cons yet...if someone noticed one I might have missed please point it out.

 

I will repost the list shortly.

[Vhaegrant]

I know these are collated and not necessarily your own opinions but I just thought I'd pin my observations to your format.

 

CONS

 

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

From my experience with the forums it seems 'many folks' will not react well to any proposed change. I think the human condition prefers a certain point of stasis and certainty and any discussion of altering this brings out a knee jerk response of 'leave it alone it's fine'. So this is a Con that could be applied to just about any suggestion present. That aside the use of the term 'Many' implies more folk are against this than for it and that is an unknown. I could just as easily say 'I would expect that many folks are going to react well to this change if implemented' judging by how many threads get started in the suggestions forum by people asking for the chance to change their AC.

 

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

I think the current environment has changed vastly between launch and the present, not least because the game has had to undergo the transition from a subscription based model to a hybrid model.I wasn't able to get into the beta so I didn't follow the discussions at the time. I did read that originally the ingame text was a little less obvious at AC selection as to the permanency of the choice. This I suspect led to many Beta testers asking for the option to swap from one AC to the other as they progressed into the game. The Devs fix was to put the word 'Permanent' in there, a fact that certain responders in this thread hang on as the end point to any further discussion.

 

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

Some classes are already underrepresented. But importantly this tends to only be a factor within some hardcore guilds with the harder difficulty settings of Operations and Ranked PvP. In more general content you can get by with all the classes.

 

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

I don't think a single Pro-AC swap has asked for it to be implemented without some degree of cost. The arguement here is that most of the Options listed and suggestions by the Anti-AC swap crowd are so prohibitive as to be pointless.

 

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

The importance of AC choice is a subjective one and one that seems of particular importance to players that have crossed over from earlier MMOs that had less ability to be flexible with a characters end skill set.

Other gamers don't care how much importance you place on your AC choice, they only care about how well you can play it.

 

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

How? FOTM issues arise from innate class balancing and players finding new ways to get the most out of a certain build. In some respect allowing AC swapping would smooth out any class balance transition phases. If the developers see a sudden mass transition from Sorcerer to Assassin they would be able to focus attention on why. Is it an actual imbalance or just one of perception.

 

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

This is only an issue for those gamers that, for whatever reason, refuse to join a guild or add decent players to their friends list. You can also place the worse offenders on an ignore list.

PUGs have always been a horrendous experience in every MMO I have played and while I feel you can get away with them for a Flashpoint or two I just don't have the patience to try an Operation.

Inmost respects the problem exists because the solo levelling experience is too easy, players can overlevel the content and with a healing companion at their side stumble through the quests without any real hardship. So they roll up at endgame content with poor gear and no idea how to use interrupts, move out of AOEs or co-ordinate with other players.