SWTOR is ultimately a failure becuase

[Ryllynyth]

He actually has a point. Back in the days of Everquest the common belief was that PvP was the driving force behind all MMO's. The makers of EQ were smart enough to look at why people weren't playing the PvP-heavy MMO's of the day, and not the few who were. They removed PvP from the equation completely which allowed "casual" gamers a chance to actually play, it allowed them to design a character class system without the crutch of having to balance it for PvP, and the result was a game that was different and it blew away every other game on the market.

 

Umm, no, not really. There -were- no 'PvP-heavy MMOs' when EverQuest was released (the only other MMO that had any sort of mass popularity was Ultima Online), in fact EverQuest was, for a LOT of people, their first MMO and that's why it was so successful.

 

Not to even mention that there was PvP included (let us not forget the Priests of Discord) but mostly people ignored it because PvP-centric players have always been a tiny minority of the MMO market. It's too bad every modern MMO feels it has to include some form of PvP, because it usually negatively effects the other 95% of the game.

[Eillack]

They did listen, just to the biggest whiners. Why do you think companion deaths were removed and the mass amount of servers at launch?

 

Ok I'll reword it then,

 

Eaware listens to no one who displays common sense.

[CosmicKat]

Umm, no, not really. There -were- no 'PvP-heavy MMOs' when EverQuest was released (the only other MMO that had any sort of mass popularity was Ultima Online), in fact EverQuest was, for a LOT of people, their first MMO and that's why it was so successful.

 

Not to even mention that there was PvP included (let us not forget the Priests of Discord) but mostly people ignored it because PvP-centric players have always been a tiny minority of the MMO market. It's too bad every modern MMO feels it has to include some form of PvP, because it usually negatively effects the other 95% of the game.

 

All MMO's pre-EQ were PvP centered. The reason why none of them (including UO) had mass popularity (in comparison to EQ) was A) they all sucked and B) they were ruled by griefers and gankers. EQ freed players from the PvP elites and the results speak for themselves.

 

Not to say all PvPers were or are griefers, but when the small percentage who are have free reign, they destroy a game for everyone else. Meridian 59 and DSO were prime examples, even early UO was overrun with them.

[bionamaster]

This just isn't getting us anywhere. Some believe SWTOR is fantastic, some believe it is poor. The facts are: It isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and that neither side will back down. Can't we just leave this thread alone? It's pointless.

[Ryllynyth]

PvP elites

 

I like that, it's certainly ironic enough to fit.

 

There was a reason why EQ's PvP servers (Rallos Zek et al) were ghost towns compared to all the others. Most people simply don't play MMos for PvP.

[Turshek]

Imo, the problem with TOR comes from a lack of clear direction, at least since EA bought BW, maybe even before.

 

From the time I was in beta and with the things I saw, while some things were better back then, I still coudn't see how they could make this a great success. I'm not sure what BW originally intended to add and which features they had to cancel but since a long time all I saw was a game lacking of coherence.

 

I'm pretty sure there's a struggle between different people at BW/EA with different visions of what makes a MMO, a good MMO, a profitable MMO... It's not a real problem as long as one side finally win early and then everyone is working toward the same goal.

With TOR, it seems no side won or at least only way too late, which means the game was developed with opposite goals, some parts leaning towards some kind of gameplay, some others going the other way, with compromises in the middle, not really pleasing any sides.

 

The thing is there's many ways to make a MMO, for different people, with different gameplay and preferences. Game companies have to choose their goal and their audiences. Sure if you want to make a lot of money, you have to broaden what you can do in your game but never forget what your primary audience is and what they like/want.

 

Sure there's some people happy with SWTOR but if you take each of them, looking objectively into what they like, you'ld see that each part could have be done better, that it's missing this or that, that it doesn't mix well other parts of the game... Just take big categories like soloers, raiders, pvp'ers... and see that each of theses categories have their problems...

 

The problem wasn't they listened to the "wrong" people, it's that among themselves they couldn't even decide where to go and to do what.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Turshek

[Vandrain]

Meh swtor isn't a failure anymore. Where have you guys been?

 

It fell flat after launch, but that is old news, it's doing pretty good now.

[OddballEasyEight]

I think what the OP meant to say was "SWTOR is ultimately a failure because... i say so."

[Lewintelamon]

The Jar Jar character would have actually been interesting if he had an arc, instead of remaining a poor, one-note comedic devise throughout.

 

For instance, if he'd started out as the bumbling idiot we saw in Episode I, but by the final part of Episode III had developed into a much more competent and reliable contributor to the good guys' cause, and a respectable warrior in his own right.

 

Of course that would have required people to actually disagree with George Lucas at the screenplays' stages of development.

 

Unfortunately, the most we saw of him after the Episode I debacle was his installation as Padme's replacement in the Galactic Senate. And basically, he gave the vote the Emperor needed to begin his takeover of the Republic.

 

Damn you Jar Jar, DAMN YOUUUUU!!!

 

(We now return you from this trivial derail to your regular thread, already in progress )

Edited May 27, 2013 by Lewintelamon

[Pscyon]

"because... i say so."

That's usually the basis for the expert opinions on all things TOR.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Pscyon

[arunav]

Class stories have been abandoned, and they were and still are the best part of SWTOR.

 

ROTHC and Makeb pale in comparison to the general storytelling and cinematic cutscenes of the original release. The lack of fully-voiced quests, save for a couple for each faction alongside the main planetary arc, made Makeb feel incredibly empty in comparison to previous planets.

 

Perhaps EA will pick it up later when the game has made back more revenue, but, if SWTOR continues like this, it is basically a cash shop to sell Star Wars items. Which WILL make EA plenty of money, as it has for decades for Lucas. It WILL NOT make a great game, which SWTOR can still be.

Edited May 27, 2013 by arunav

[hages]

Bioware listened to the users instead of having a coherent vision of what they wanted to do with the old republic, that is why swtor is such a mess.

this game is not a failure. The game is not perfect but to call it a failure is just crap

I know way worse games and the better ones are much harder to find. At the end it is just youre and mine personal taste.

[KennethHoover]

Actually, Bioware didn't really listen to anybody. This was well documented during beta.

 

It's often the same since launch as well, sad to say.

[CosmicKat]

this game is not a failure. The game is not perfect but to call it a failure is just crap

I know way worse games and the better ones are much harder to find. At the end it is just youre and mine personal taste.

 

The only way they were able to get player numbers above their break even point was to give the game away for free.

 

Case closed.

[Ryllynyth]

The only way they were able to get player numbers above their break even point was to give the game away for free.

 

Case closed.

 

If you are trying to make the point that many games are going to a F2P model because it makes more money than a subscription based one, well, yeah? That's pretty well documented by this point.

[DarthDrachonus]

This entire thread is ultimately a failure because the word because is misspelled. Now, with that said, I'm not going to trust the word of a person who failed at spelling as simple a word as because.

[RepublicChicken]

If you want a serious discussion, we all need to agree on one thing first: What does it mean that the game will be a failure? Personally, I think we're long past the point where the game can ever be a failure. The game had a rocky launch, but I think the only way it could have failed was if it didn't get back on it's feet. That it did, and it's better and more popular than ever. So how can anyone possibly call it a failure?`

 

Also, there's the "ultimately a failure because" thing. How can it ultimately be a failure, when it's quite successful? What do you mean by ultimately? It'll fail in three years? Five years? By then, the game has made EA and BioWare a ton of money, so I'd say that's pretty successful. But if you mean "it's not a WoW killer", that's so dumb I won't even go there. When I look at SW:TOR, I see a game that's doing really well, that I love to play and that has constantly heavy populated servers. So again, how is that a failure?

[hages]

The only way they were able to get player numbers above their break even point was to give the game away for free.

 

Case closed.

 

Not case closed.

for Me is this game is not a failure because i still enjoy it. and the fleet are full and my guild is growing every week

At that other hand what you think is youre oppinion.

[RTCBrad]

These threads make me lol I have seen them at least once a month since launch, and even a couple "why this game will fail" during beta.

 

Sure it's not everything it could be, and perhaps it was a 2008 game released in 2011 but it isn't crap and there are plenty that are worse.

[Bojangle]

I am confused how ToR is a failure? They have one of the tops in subs/active players (not counting WoW of course) and the number has been growing, according to them which I believe a lot more then someone here who posts saying they don't. I may not play much anymore because I have other things going on and mmo's in general for me are burning me out, but I still love this game.

 

If the game was a failure then why are you and many others still playing the game?

[DarthTHC]

I am confused how ToR is a failure? They have one of the tops in subs/active players (not counting WoW of course) and the number has been growing, according to them which I believe a lot more then someone here who posts saying they don't. I may not play much anymore because I have other things going on and mmo's in general for me are burning me out, but I still love this game.

 

If the game was a failure then why are you and many others still playing the game?

 

It's OK to count WoW. There's no shame in being the 2nd or 3rd biggest MMO, or whatever SWTOR is, especially considering it's profitable and growing.

[Blackardin]

He actually has a point. Back in the days of Everquest the common belief was that PvP was the driving force behind all MMO's. The makers of EQ were smart enough to look at why people weren't playing the PvP-heavy MMO's of the day, and not the few who were. They removed PvP from the equation completely which allowed "casual" gamers a chance to actually play, it allowed them to design a character class system without the crutch of having to balance it for PvP, and the result was a game that was different and it blew away every other game on the market.

 

EA only listened to focus groups of WoW players.

 

Had they listened to the people who don't play WoW, they would likely have a much better game and a much bigger audience.

 

Normally agree with you, but Everquest did have PvP, and it was certainly not a game for the casual player, not with 9 hour raids, and 3 day corpse runs, loss of exp on death, no solo play, loong, long travel etc. etc. Wow succeeded because they eliminated all the tedium that was everquest, and because they created a game with a hardware demand that could be played on a tin can set with two strings attached.

 

Agree with your point overall though. listening to the wrong people seems to be a sort of talent that some game designers have.

[Blackardin]

The only way they were able to get player numbers above their break even point was to give the game away for free.

 

Case closed.

 

Free to play coupled with the cartel market.....and judging success by income, not player satisfaction.

 

I'm seeing people spamming up to one hundred dollars a day of cartel items on the GTN, such as unlocks and packs, for ridiculously low credits. I have to believe that people are either crazy, or there is some duping and hacking going on.

 

Either way, people are buying up cartel items like crazy. Game play has become irrelevant It as a standard for this games success. its just a vehicle, to keep people in game, so as to expand and utilize cartel profit to its maximum potential.

[Halaek]

Success is always judged by profits and income, your very naïve if you think this game was made for anything else. You'll most likely find that the game has already paid for itself and in that respect is a huge success, physical sales of the game at the very start most likely paid for its creation and now the rest is gravy.

 

Anyways I never understand why mmo developers never have used their games to judge their communities needs and wants. By this I mean whats wrong with small ingame consumer questionnaire upon login for every subscriber and f2per. Also make it compulsory upon login (i.e you cannot login without completing it)

 

This is the only way really you will get a real and accurate grasp on what players really want. Im sorry but the people who frequent the forums are really just the vocal minority to be honest and frank you really cannot make game changing decisions by taking their opinions as that of the whole community.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Halaek

[TUXs]

Bioware listened to the users instead of having a coherent vision of what they wanted to do with the old republic, that is why swtor is such a mess.

Pfft...ridiculous.

 

SWTOR launched EXACTLY as Bioware had envisioned. Then, after losing 2 million subs, they continue to listen to the guys who developed the game. Customers are viewed as disposable and replaceable by Bioware/EA. They're doing exactly what THEY want...still.