Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

[enabe]

I take it you did not clear NM Asation then?

Check this thread for more info about what they are talking about. I'm sure you will realize that once you read that thread, your proposition to read tooltips becomes a bit laughable...

 

i say again my raid teams have cleared all OPS so do some more research and you will find your mistakes

[Stormskimmer]

i say again my raid teams have cleared all OPS so do some more research and you will find your mistakes

 

So, what guild are you in, if you don't mind my asking? Also, if you don't mind, could you post some of your parses from torparse so we can bask in your awesomeness and see how to improve please?

[Leafy_Bug]

Sorry you got a warning Leafy, but props to you for getting them to finally respond. You were one of the few people I remember posting on the pts forums about the second armor nerf pretty much thinking :confused:?! I think most shadow/sin tanks share that sentiment now.

 

Still amazed by the original dev response, still available on the dulfy site:

 

http://dulfy.net/2013/02/25/swtor-patch-2-0-developer-responses/

 

 

 

pfft, "rebalance" indeed.

 

Guess now we just wait and see if this pans out:

 

 

Here's hoping.

 

 

Hey, thanks for the kind words. Yes, I was very vocal since the early days because it felt wrong. One patch we were in one extreme, over powered I might say, and the next patches, we kind of received an extreme overhaul where we found ourselves squishy as hell. In what world was this balancing? From top of the food chain, we ended up under whale poo .

 

 

Of course, we continued to play our tanks and developed ways to compensate for some of the short comings. Please find below :

 

1. Memorize boss attacks, timing, careful activation of kinetic ward.

2. Optimise rotations for maximum mitigation and use cooldowns pro-actively.

3. Organize the raid according to the shadow tank so two healers are on him at all times. Completely ignore sentinels in raid unless they are close to dying.

4. Spend hours and hours in torparse logs to modify the gear accordingly.

 

 

We cleared content, we invested millions, BioWare came out with another patch and said Shadows have been re-balanced with another nerf. Given the effort we put into playing our class before this new nerf, we knew that things will only end up badly. There is so much you can do with your class, with your playstyle, with the raid.

 

 

Of course, Shadow tanks can clear content nobody says they cannot. I guess the HOW in this is not relevant to some.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Spamfritter]

Here's hoping it doesn't take 8 months to increase armor rating.

 

Btw, since my main is/was a sin, if you guys can actually fix this so that they're not the WORST tanks, I'd consider that "content" and would be fully satisfied.

 

Well unless they're balanced flawlessly or work the same there will always be a "worst" tank. Sometimes I wonder if the guys at BioWare even know how the game works.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Spamfritter

[Berjiz]

I am sorry to say that there is nothing wrong with the shadow/sin tank spec Because the set up i have for my tanks and the rotation i run i have never run into these problems. Dont know about the rest of you but my raid teams have completed all the ops and i hold threat just fine and dont really take much damage and the healers only have to heal mine for very little during the raid.

 

So my first idea the guys that are having problems look into your build and research it some more the game gives u the little tool tips of what it does then research a good rotation, and if you have this, and you are still dying

 

My next idea would be to find better gear that can be easily obtained by running HM then if that still does not work.

 

my final idea is to find better healers and DPS.

 

Getting a bit tired of these posts, if it is going so well why don't you post the parses and the tactics? And that you meantion holding threat says a bit to, holding threat is never a problem after 30 sec or a min tops. When it comes to builds there isn't exactly that much you can do. 36/5/5 or similair is pretty much the only viable one, the one with darkswell is interesting but keyboardninja explained somewhere pretty well why it is a bad idea.

[Liwilliams]

Hey guys,

 

Apologies for the silence on this. I wanted to pass this back to the combat guys and make sure we had an in-depth conversation about Shadow/Assassin tanks before coming back to you guys. What I can say is that we are investigating the Shadow/Assassin tank’s performance against hard-hitting Operations bosses. I have no timeline on any potential changes right now but I at least wanted you guys to know that we are aware of your concerns.

 

-eric

 

Thanks for the feedback, in absolute all sincerity. Even though some lashed out at you, just realize it's frustration at the longevity of silence is what they were upset about, not your response.

 

If there's anything the community can do to help, we're here. We've got plenty of numbers to offer, and I think you'll find we do need a bit of tweaking. I hope to hear more on this soon, and thank you again.

[Liwilliams]

Well unless they're balanced flawlessly or work the same there will always be a "worst" tank. Sometimes I wonder if the guys at BioWare even know how the game works.

 

That's apart of class balance. It's a never ending job.

 

The issue isn't so much being the "worst" it's the issue of not being able to complete certain aspects of end-game content because of a design flaw, not because your skill/gear/lack of knowledge about mechanics.

[Alduinsm]

i say again my raid teams have cleared all OPS so do some more research and you will find your mistakes

 

What guild are you in if i may ask?

And please share the information if you know something that most of us don't. Being able to clear all ops is only proving that it's not impossible to do it with Shadow tank , it doesn't change the fact that it's easier to do it with Vanguard/Guardian tank though.

[Kitru]

i say again my raid teams have cleared all OPS so do some more research and you will find your mistakes

 

First off, the people that have already *done* the research (and I don't just mean "we found posts and info by other people"; KBN, dipstik, and myself *did the math*) are the ones bringing this up as a problem. So I would recommend you do some research of your own before telling *us* to do more research.

 

Secondly, there are only 2 ways that you can avoid massive spiky RNG doom as a Shadow tank.

 

The first is by stacking the living hell out of Endurance. In doing so, you make said spikes more likely to happen and reduce your mean mitigation such that you end up taking *more* damage over time than a VG or Guardian. In short, you can survive the spikes if you're willing to place a much heavier load on your healers and render the entire *point* of having a spiky tank (i.e. best mean mitigation) null because you're *still* spikier than a VG or Guardian *and* you take more damage. Even if you *can* survive bigger hits, you're still less useful to have around than a VG or Guardian because you're universally worse.

 

The second is by running with *absolutely perfect* healers. By "absolutely perfect", I mean "constantly keeps you topped off and predicts all incoming damage so as to apply shields right before a spike and precast heals so that they land right after". If you've got healers like this, *awesome*, but that by no means indicates that Shadows are working fine. In fact, requiring healers that are *so* on their game that they could probably keep a DPS Guardian alive as a tank is a pretty good indicator that Shadows are actually pretty borked.

 

Any time I see someone saying that they never have problems on their Shadow, I'm always amused at their inability to actually provide parses or data. If we number crunchers are doing something wrong, please, show us how (preferably by showing us a parse to demonstrate your mad skills or an AMR profile if we're somehow gearing ourselves wrong) because, based upon all of the math and modeling we've done in the past which worked *absolutely perfectly*, we're still doing it all correctly and the spikiness problem persists.

 

Anecdotal evidence *isn't*. Just saying that people are doing it wrong without actually explaining *why* you think they're doing it wrong or providing explicit evidence that demonstrates *why* they're doing it wrong isn't helpful *or* constructive. Hell, if you're insisting on keeping any information that has allowed you to bypass what has become a major problem for a huge part of the player body to yourself, you're actively hurting the community by being unwilling to share your knowledge/expertise (since it's apparent *here* that you have no problem actually taking part *in* the community).

 

Basically, don't just say that it's not a problem. Prove that it isn't one with hard facts or shut the hell up. We're trying to accomplish something for the betterment of the community, not just irritate other players through obtuse commentary.

[KeyboardNinja]

I'd like a comment from one of the theory crafters on this:

 

If sins were restored to their Exact pre1.3 state, i.e., no phase walk heals/only 8 charges of dark ward/no dark bulwark, but the 150% armor from dark charge+20% armor from tree talent + restored dark charge heals+ restored force lightning %s....would they still be super spikey and die of RNG deaths?

 

Holy cow…

 

So, pre-1.3 shadows were already over powered. If you combine that with the changes to shield in 2.0 (shielding all K/E), there would be no reason to even look at another tank. I haven't mathed it out, but off th top of my head, pre-1.3 shadows would probably require something like 12-14% less healing than any other tank. They would still be spiky at timesdue to the way that post-2.0 content is designed, but the extra 6ish % DR would probably be sufficient to make these spikes manageable. Additionally, buffing the self heal back up would allow us to reasonably stack endurance, which totally solves the problem.

 

It would be really OP though. Shadows should take less damage than the other tanks (due to skill ceiling), but 12-14% is *far* too much of a gap. Maybe 3-4% at the most.

 

I sincerely hope bioware doesn't do something this drastic. I'm all for fixing shadows, but if they get buffed to the point where the other two tanks are non-viable, expect me to be the first in line for the torches and pitchforks.

[SomeJagoff]

They would still be spiky at timesdue to the way that post-2.0 content is designed, but the extra 6ish % DR would probably be sufficient to make these spikes manageable. Additionally, buffing the self heal back up would allow us to reasonably stack endurance, which totally solves the problem.

 

ah k, thank you for the reply, I was just curious. I wasn't sure if they would still be conidered OP in context to the current content.

 

Relative to the other two tanks, obviously overpowered (especially if they required 14% less healing), but I would imagine they'd at least be able to clear the current content with no major problems (well, probably not those tanks who don't use force lightning/think that they're juggs/pts....and yes they still exist, see them in hm 55 fps). It is still a bit disconcerting that they'd still be spikey though. =/

 

On a sidenote, I noticed while doing section x, some of the "assassin" dread guard ads there had a kolto shell of sorts that healed on damage taken. If Dark bulwark were redesigned to heal a significant amount of hp per tick instead of the absorb mechanic, would that reduce spikiness at all? (assuming armor rating stayed where it is) The self healing concept does sound unique and interesting to play, but with such low armor, wondering if maybe a super buff to self healing along these lines would help at all.

 

I don't necessarily want to just be a super buff 20k armor tank that doesn't have to try, but I obviously don't want to be a tank that relies heavily on self healing that doesn't scale with boss damage either.

 

If the devs insist on keeping this class as a "cloth" tank, then they'll probably end up buffing self-healing a ton. Though, I do already feel like a poor man's healer with the "increased healing received" talents in the tree.

[atschai]

i say again my raid teams have cleared all OPS so do some more research and you will find your mistakes

Given that Enabe is on Harbinger and HATRED is the only guild who has NM clear on that server and you are obviously not in that guild and not even a tank makes me doubt your claim.

[Berjiz]

A few spontanoues ideas, either of these might be interesting:

 

1)

All self-healing gets turned into heals that trigger directly after taking an unshielded/unddoged hit.

 

2)

All self-healing overheals and a percentage of the all other overheals gets turned into heals similar to 1). Possbile variation is that they increase max hp and heals the same amount, so if you have 100 hp of 120, gets 10 buff from overheal you have 110 hp and 130 max.

 

3)

Remove selfheal from dark charge and add an effect to it that makes percentage of the dmg from unshieled/undogged attacks gets a applied as dots instead. They should be uncleansable except maybe for force shroud.

 

Personally I think I like number 2 best. Its a interesting way to change the overheals that assain needs into something useful and could also create some interesting tactics depending on how long the buffs last. For instance you could start to overheal the sin if you know that the enrage is starting soon or before terminate etc.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Berjiz

[Kynesis]

Pitchforks may be going a little far - of all people KbN, you know class balance is tricky at the best of times.

Numbers in testing and test environments are what they are, but I suspect grumpiness borne of disappointment and frustration is starting to take hold.

 

On a tangent (I'm sure an unwelcome one), having put my Jugg through raids recently I have to admit that I'm seriously considering not going back to my Sin - I have no doubt that any fix they administer will only (as in specifically, this one issue) address TTL.

 

Now that I've really thought about the differences in depth and with more experience, have really experimented with the differences and most importantly with the utility and control they each offer, I feel strongly that while the Sin can tank, my Jugg is a tank.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Kynesis

[helpmewin]

A few spontanoues ideas, either of these might be interesting:

 

1)

All self-healing gets turned into heals that trigger directly after taking an unshielded/unddoged hit.

 

2)

All self-healing overheals and a percentage of the all other overheals gets turned into heals similar to 1). Possbile variation is that they increase max hp and heals the same amount, so if you have 100 hp of 120, gets 10 buff from overheal you have 110 hp and 130 max.

 

3)

Remove selfheal from dark charge and add an effect to it that makes percentage of the dmg from unshieled/undogged attacks gets a applied as dots instead. They should be uncleansable except maybe for force shroud.

 

Personally I think I like number 2 best. Its a interesting way to change the overheals that assain needs into something useful and could also create some interesting tactics depending on how long the buffs last. For instance you could start to overheal the sin if you know that the enrage is starting soon or before terminate etc.

 

No...with great self-healing shadow tank will be imba in PvP. I think best what it'll be it is just increase DR and give him more immuns and controls.

My suggestion:

At 3 stacks harnessed shadows while using telekinetic throw he immune to all CC effects.

Increase all DR by 5-6%.

Re-balance shadow's shelter - no more 5% healing done buff, Pool healing on Х every second when shadow in.

Shadow wrap - after using shadow strike with shadow wrap effect increase all DR by X% on Y sec.

Edited July 5, 2013 by helpmewin

[SomeJagoff]

No...with great self-healing shadow tank will be imba in PvP.

[...]

At 3 stacks harnessed shadows while using telekinetic throw he immune to all CC effects.

 

You don't think complete CC immunity every time you channel HD force lightning would be unbalanced in pvp?

[helpmewin]

You don't think complete CC immunity every time you channel HD force lightning would be unbalanced in pvp?

 

No. Cause shadow is easy to kill in RWZ matches. This will give him more survival. He can do some dmg little healing and then run away from smashers.

Knights AWE is not imbalanced in PvP? Smugglers flashbang? Vanguard AOE stun? Opers healing? Knights smash? Sentinels survival? Deception burst? More?

Edited July 5, 2013 by helpmewin

[SomeJagoff]

No. Cause shadow is easy to kill in RWZ matches. This will give him more survival. He can do some dmg little healing and then run away from smashers.

Knights AWE is not imbalanced in PvP? Smugglers flashbang? Vanguard AOE stun? Opers healing? Knights smash? Sentinels survival? Deception burst? More?

 

Not sure if serious....

 

you really think immunity to roots, slows, knockbacks, knockdowns, stuns, interrupts, etc. for ~18 secs of every minute isn't op?

 

prob op.

 

In any case, not gonna hijack the thread with pvp Stuff. That's what got tank shadows in the spot they're currently in "oh noes, too op in pvp" then nerf hammer repeatedly, nerf hydraulic press, really.

Edited July 5, 2013 by SomeJagoff

[Justcae]

Alright, I have tried my hardest to stay away from this amazing qq-fest that has become so bloated and out of proportion its amazing.

 

 

Of course, we continued to play our tanks and developed ways to compensate for some of the short comings. Please find below :

 

1. Memorize boss attacks, timing, careful activation of kinetic ward.

2. Optimise rotations for maximum mitigation and use cooldowns pro-actively.

3. Organize the raid according to the shadow tank so two healers are on him at all times. Completely ignore sentinels in raid unless they are close to dying.

4. Spend hours and hours in torparse logs to modify the gear accordingly.

 

 

1. Are you kidding me? Do you think this is something that makes you special in the world of tanking? That you have to know what attacks are coming and when? The biggest joke in this game is how much content in the game shadows absolutely break between resilience/force shroud when they actually do this.

 

2. Every tank does this. If you're not doing this, especially so in the newest level of NiM, you are the reason why your group is wiping. Vanguard, Guardian, or Shadow does not matter.

 

3. When a tank is taking the burst damage from whichever fight you are talking about guess what? Both healers are on them too. Sentinels are always put to the back of the bus due to their own amazing cooldowns. Hell give them a taunt and 15% armor and they'd be the best tanks in the game and break almost as much content as Shadows currently do.

 

4. That's called min/maxing. If you want to be proficient at this game on a high level its required. Run numbers to see where your cooldowns have to be popped? Check. Find the bosses rotation for hard hitting skills? Check. Discover the % of attacks that dodge/shield? Check. Welcome to tank min/maxing. Doing this has nothing to do with being a Shadow.

 

Prior to 2.0 you were actually hurting your raid team by taking any other tank than a Shadow. Neither Guardian, nor Vanguard offered any group utility or mechanic breaking that Shadows did (and still do). There was actually no reason at all to take any tank over a Shadow. Guardians got a big lift up in group utility and you could actually argue the merit of taking them in place of one Shadow. Vanguards? Well at least we have nice looking armor right?

 

Is there some merit in increasing shadow armor ever so slightly (or tune boss damage better perhaps)? Sure. At no point should a game have a fight where you can be killed outright while doing the fight properly. Ever want to kill Sunder last w/ two Vanguards? If there is a big raise in mitigation there will again be no point in taking anything other than two Shadows. So please continue your twenty, going on thirty pages of "This isn't fair!" drama when all content was pushed and cleared first w/Shadow tanks present.

[DarthSpekulatius]

content was pushed and cleared first w/Shadow tanks present.

 

inertia is the word you are looking for

 

fun aside i agree with quite a bit with what you said

 

but these days Guardiens can ignore more mechanics then shadows and unlike Shadows aren't dependent on luck to survive if they don't do that

In Nightmare Mode, Huge Grenade does in fact deal weapon damage (rather than the spell damage it deals in Story and Hard Modes). This was an intentional change for Nightmare Mode, done to make the encounter more challenging.

this was a slap in the face.

for whom does it make that encounter more challenging?

would you bring a shadow to A&V just to avoid that particular mechanic?

or would you bring a shadow to that fight just to avoid that particular mechanic,

and then swap him out for the next Boss?

 

If there is a big raise in mitigation there will again be no point in taking anything other than two Shadows.

did you read

So, as everyone and their cousin knows, right now, Shadows are almost painfully spiky right now, *way* above the Guardians and VGs. There are only 2 ways to really fix the spikiness: increase DR (which would necessitate losing some degree of our mitigation stats) or provide some effect that either provides a cushion before or after the damage arrives (i.e. an absorb shield of some kind that only triggers on big damage attacks or something that turns some portion of incoming damage into a DoT so that the same amount of damage is taken but it's not taken immediately).

 

I'm not sure how viable the second portion of those options are since some of them represent some non-trivial programming and design obstacles, but I think I figured out a decent compromise that allows for the first without having a major impact on the fundamental Shadow playstyle: change the 5% accuracy debuff that Shadows apply through Force Breach into a 5% DR buff that lasts the same amount of time (kinda like what Guardian Slash does). We'll still be the spiky tanks, but swapping out 5% functional defense for 5% DR at our levels of Defense would keep the mitigation roughly the same (it could be tweaked down to 4% DR if necessary to account for the comparative value of DR to Defense, but that's just semantics and a bit of balancing). It'll also go a fair ways to making Shadows more viable tanks at low levels.

 

Those are my ideas. I'm kinda curious what everyone else's are.

 

yes there are a few who ask to be Buffed beyond Godlike

yes there are people who think the other tanks don't worry about boss mechanics and stuff

no that doesn't justify ignoring the real Problem

 

if a shadow doesn't shield he takes Damage like some DD's just with a (very) little more Buffer,

have you seen what happens to a DD if a Boss isn't tanked for a few sec?

the shield-roll is only a little better then 50/50.

type in /roll a hundred times see how often you roll a number between 60 and 100 four times in a row

that many shadows died this minute.

[Kitru]

The biggest joke in this game is how much content in the game shadows absolutely break between resilience/force shroud when they actually do this.

 

Actually, for current content, Guardians pretty much have a monopoly on the "cheese the mechanic", thanks to Blade Turning (ignore Terminate and Thrasher; in NiM S&V, it'll allow you to ignore Huge Grenade as well) and Saber Reflect (ignore Terminate and Scream). Guardianship also allows Guardians to laugh at raid damage. The only things that Resilience actually works on are Isotope Release (not an issue for anyone except for Shadows), HM S&V Huge Grenade (once again, not an issue for anyone except for Shadows), and The End (which is actually only needed when you're running double Shadows since Guards and VGs can loltank Tu'chuk's burn phase with ease).

 

If you want to claim that Shadows are somehow amazing because of Resilience, it's pretty much completely untrue nowadays. The devs have pretty much said, outright, that Resilience isn't useful any more. Hell, The only ability in that list that you *can* have a single Shadow cheese thanks to the use cycle occurring more often than Resilience recharges is Huge Grenade. For everything else, to *actually* cheese it, you have to have 2 Shadow tanks and bounce it.

 

Prior to 2.0 you were actually hurting your raid team by taking any other tank than a Shadow. Neither Guardian, nor Vanguard offered any group utility or mechanic breaking that Shadows did (and still do).

 

Pre-2.0, the best loadout actually tended to be Guardian + Shadow because it allowed the tanks to cover the relevant weaknesses of each other. The only reason that Shadow/Shadow was such a popular combination was because the tanks were balanced well enough that the *minute* advantages that Shadows had over the other tanks (i.e. Resilience for a *few* mechanics) allowed them to do some pretty interesting things. Hell, for NiM EC Kephess, Shadows were a ******* to bring in (and one of the primary reasons why it took so long to clear was because a lot of guilds brought double Shadow tanks) because of the spike damage and number of attack/sec chewed through KW stacks.

 

VGs were the "worst" tanks (though they've always been fully functional and capable of clearing everything) because they were faceroll easy to play. Any class that's *designed* to be playable by just smashing your keyboard shouldn't be a top performer (of course, that's *Guardians* now so...).

 

Anyone claiming that taking anything but double Shadows pre-2.0 was a terrible loadout that was actually detrimental for the group has no clue what they're talking about. The difference in performance between having double Shadows and a Shadow/Guardian or Shadow/VG was virtually nonexistent. Hell, Guardian/VG still worked out perfectly well because the tanks were balanced *amazingly* well pre-2.0.

 

Guardians got a big lift up in group utility and you could actually argue the merit of taking them in place of one Shadow.

 

Right now, there's actually not much reason to bring even a single Shadow. Spike deaths make Shadows a major liability, and Resilience is *way* less useful than it has historically been and Saber Reflect actually ends up doing *more* than Resilience does (more reliably too, since the devs still haven't figured out how to remove that 5% floor from the attack function).

 

The only reason that 2.0 world firsts happened with Shadows was because those were the tanks currently being played. It wasn't because Shadows were absolutely amazing or the best tanks. It was because *that's what was available*. Now that the guilds are actually looking to optimize their group composition rather than bringing what they've got (now that we've actually got enough information to *make* informed decisions), most top tier progression guilds are actually looking at *getting rid* of their Shadows and bringing in Guardians (who are stupid easy to play and horribly borked in pretty much every way in addition to having the most cheesing capability since, apparently, Jesse Sky wants Resilience to be worthless).

 

The oft repeated world first clears of NiM DG are *terrible* evidence for the value of Shadow tanks since NiM DG isn't a hard tank fight. It's a *DPS race*. They could have brought *any* of the tanks with the same effect. Hell, Guardians would have been *better* thanks to Guardianship (reducing damage to the entire ops group rather than just the tank as well as being able to maintain DPS on Kel'sara with Force Leech because they're not apt to heal themselves and die because of it).

[Riivan]

 

I don't *need* to say more.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Riivan

[DarthSpekulatius]

type in /roll a hundred times see how often you roll a number between 60 and 100 four times in a row

that many shadows died this minute.

 

oh and the times how often you roll 3 61-100 in a row are the times how often a healer brought a shadow back from 20% live within that same one minute

 

btw before someone else calls me out for ignoring defense make it 80-100. = 20/100 = 1/4

 

 

1214421211421333213422423212441332321111444413312212231332311114224222243322332123313211312211321432

1444213111311424322324231444112131424132333413333141314223124142111341231333211312411422214422442144

1444213111311424322324231444112131424132333413333141314223124142111341231333211312411422214422442144

1444213111311424322324231444112131424132333413333141314223124142111341231333211312411422214422442144

1444213111311424322324231444112131424132333413333141314223124142111341231333211312411422214422442144

 

1* "4444" means one dead shadow in 4 minutes (CD saved him of course)

10* "444" means in 4 minutes 10 shadows got healed back from 20%live

 

my excel tells me i'm closer to a 30% chance to not mitigate a Hit

you don't want to see the numbers i got for 1-3 rolls (33%)

 

 

3311123132233332212321333132332132223212223132333333112221223133313111321313323131113133122113321323

1112212333322111332311123111111123121213121233123223233321121233311113132231113331213313123323332231

1133233311313123112211223222231112332331232122313132322212232122111133212313312213211333323113233122

3311113313333331213221222133123331123123123322332131222332133113223311122232333313333331223313113211

 

 

in 4 minutes 7 "3333"... if i count the three "333333" only once (after all who can be more then dead?)

 

 

numbers are from http://www.random.org/integers/

(edit: that's most probably not the Generator SWTOR uses in case you wouldn't have guessed that already, i just picked the first one from Google)

copied to word

search and count "444" / "3333" (don't bother counting "333")

Edited July 5, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[NrDLeipe]

well i hope they fix this soon, its game breaking.

 

i dont wanna change to a diffrent tank i like the assassin to much and this definitly gonna decide for me if im gonna continue being subbed or not when it runs out

[MajikMyst]

Ugggg... Reading this is making me want to roll another tank.. I love my shadow though..