Fixing Shadow Tank Spikiness

[Altheran]

My new idea is probably (if not surely) under your expectations, and may have already been mentionned, but what if Shadow's Shelter would give damage reduction instread of incoming heal increase ?

 

I don't know about you, but I personnally think that's the worst way to give survivability to a tank. It increase the reliance upon self-heals and external heals. So not only Shadows are less reliable because they rely too much on self healing which cause spikiness, but you also hand your own survivability to others (healers) more than others. Even if the percentage is low, it exacerbates the need for healers to be on guard, because not only they have to handle spikes, but they're more responsible if they can't handle them.

Increasing recieved heal are just an indirect damage reducer, but with the disadvantage to not be preventive but corrective... just like self-healing is (and increase its power in at the same time).

And so, what happen if for a reason you don't receive heals ? (Like for exemple a carbonized healer in Karagga, or whatever can occur in PvP). -> Bigger survivability drop than other tanks.

 

I think that such talents mustn't appear on a tank tree. Tanks' role is to survive, and so they must succed without relying to much on other, they have to be as effecient as possible even if they're not given the proper support. Such talents are fine if we're speaking about a DPS spec, because their survival is a secondary goal. I think that's as stupid that if DPS were given a talent that increase their DPS when receiving heals (assuming these are not self-healing specs).

[Kitru]

My new idea is probably (if not surely) under your expectations, and may have already been mentionned, but what if Shadow's Shelter would give damage reduction instread of incoming heal increase ?

 

The problem with this is that Phase Walk still doesn't have a 100% uptime. At best, it's got a ~72% uptime at the moment, and, if you teleport, you're screwed even more.

 

Honestly, I'm not that reluctant to get rid of Shadow's Shelter as it currently stands. It's not just a useful tool for the tank but for the raid as a whole since it increases *all* healing of nearby healers, which is kind of nice. I still think that Phase Walk needs something of a rebuild to make it more useful in PvE (since the only thing I ever hear it being useful for, in the slightest, is node guarding in PvP, which is a *way* too specific purpose for a new class's ability), but I don't think Shadow's Shelter should necessarily be a part of that.

[Altheran]

I was not speaking about the part that is bound to Phase walk being deployed, which I think can remain unchanged (at the moment, considering its usefulness and ease to use) even if giving DR instead of healing is as viable in theory, but the the first part that is 100% uptime (the 2% that only affect the Shadow).

 

Sorry I was unclear

Edited June 14, 2013 by Altheran

[Kitru]

I was not speaking about the part that is bound to Phase walk being deployed, which I think can remain unchanged even if giving DR instead of healing is as viable in theory, but the the first part that is 100% uptime (the 2% that only affect the Shadow).

 

Eh, I kind of enjoy the 2% healing received from Shadow's Shelter. It's a kewl little benefit that kind of makes sense for Shadows since we're, you know, the self-healing tanks. Increasing out healing from other sources just kind of makes sense. Also, it's not really a *major* factor in our survivability: it's 2% less base healing required, which is only slightly more than 1% DR (which actually equates to ~1.56% less healing required at 35% K/E DR; at 40% K/E DR, it's 1.67%). It's more of just a kewl, tangential benefit that's unique to Shadows, which I kind of like. It sets us apart from the crowd in another weird/wonky way.

[SomeJagoff]

Increase Armor rating by A Lot (through dark charge or a tree talent in the tank tree) or increase self healing by A Lot.

 

Assassin tank armor rating was lower than jugg/pt tank armor rating at launch, but they had self heals to mitigate for that difference.

 

People QQed that sin tanks in pvp were overpowered.

 

Rather than nerf damage output (which would make sense, in context to pvp), they nerfed armor rating even lower AND self heals. Reasoning behind nerfing both is so that neither one was "hit too hard"

 

Fast forward 1 year later

 

They Nerf armor rating again...err, thought you didn't want to hit either one too hard?

 

Now people apparently can't clear the hardest content/have significant difficulty doing so compared to the other 2 tanks, and sin tanks can wipe on trash.

 

Self healing is a bit of a joke, so I personally wouldn't mind seeing it nerfed, but having Armor rating buffed to the original pre-1.3 levels, that would presumably fix pve and make assassin tanks as good as guardian tanks in pvp as well.

 

Another possibility, remove the ridiculous diminishing returns on shield/absorb. If an Assassin tank could get back up to ~70% shield with dark ward, they might not be as spikey, but that will not happen with current diminishing returns.

 

P.S. Remove the new ridiculous dark ward animation, it just ads insult to injury when you die.

"Careful everyone, I'm a tough guy Assassin Tank and I have a Datacron Shield!......that does absolutely nothing." *dies*

Edited June 14, 2013 by SomeJagoff

[Altheran]

Eh, I kind of enjoy the 2% healing received from Shadow's Shelter. It's a kewl little benefit that kind of makes sense for Shadows since we're, you know, the self-healing tanks. Increasing out healing from other sources just kind of makes sense. Also, it's not really a *major* factor in our survivability: it's 2% less base healing required, which is only slightly more than 1% DR (which actually equates to ~1.56% less healing required at 35% K/E DR; at 40% K/E DR, it's 1.67%). It's more of just a kewl, tangential benefit that's unique to Shadows, which I kind of like. It sets us apart from the crowd in another weird/wonky way.

 

While agree it fits with the concept that we are healing tanks, wasn't the emphasis given to healing (whether be ours or healers') already too high ?

 

Whatever, I personally don't like it because I handle what should be my responsibility (my ability to survive) to others (even if it's a small part). While I'll never be able to withstand without the help of a healer, I find abnormal that instead of increasing myself in order to need less healing, that I increase their heals while I remain as vulnerable.

 

The other reason I don't like this is because the numbers of equivalent DR that you mentionned (that by the way I find different ones*) are only true if the healing received is enough to compensate the damage received. If the healing is below the incomong damage, the survivability is somewhere between having these percentage of DR, and not having them. I assume that would be an average with weight between the two at pro-rata of healing/damage (if healing is half the damage, it would be like if I have the percentage of equivalent DR).

Already that self-healing doesn't scale with opponents, now if it has to scale depending on the group support...

 

Even if 2% of healing is very few and is a sub-par of Shadow's survivabilty, I think we are unreliable enough. I wouldn't care if the talent was part of a spec like Balance or Watchman (Sent), but for a tank, no. I could accept if the tank is the steadier in the first place, so that he becomes a bit more hazardous like others, in his own way.

 

* At 35% of K/E -> 1.245%, at 40% of K/E -> 1.176%, at 21% of Ele/Int -> 1.549%

 

 

Maybe I'm a bit biased, because as I PvP a lot (I said it the other time), and as a Tank I am left without help very oftenly because I am supposed to be able to withstand thing by myself for longer than others. So during these times, the equivalent DR granted by Shadow's Shelter is very low as I can only count on my self-heals. (With the ease to conceal a Shadow Tank that we discussed in an other thread...)

 

[Kitru]

While agree it fits with the concept that we are healing tanks, wasn't the emphasis given to healing (whether be ours or healers') already too high ?

 

It's too high because our self heals comprise 25% of our total mitigation. 2% increase healing received doesn't impact that value to any appreciable extent. The reason why relying on *self healing* is bad is because it doesn't scale effectively with incoming damage. Incoming *external* healing, however, does have a strong tendency to scale with incoming damage (cuz, you know incoming healing kind of *has* to).

 

Whatever, I personally don't like it because I handle what should be my responsibility (my ability to survive) to others (even if it's a small part). While I'll never be able to withstand without the help of a healer, I find abnormal that instead of increasing myself in order to need less healing, that I increase their heals while I remain as vulnerable.

 

This would be a valid argument were it not for the fact that Shadows already have the best mean mitigation. Shadows *already* require the least external healing of all of the tanks. Using a mechanism to *increase* incoming healing allows our mean pre-healing mitigation to approach the average while still allowing our total mean mitigation to be better.

 

(that by the way I find different ones*)

 

I didn't calculate equivalent DR equivalent to increased healing received. I calculated equivalent healing received to increased DR. I specifically stated that the 1% DR equates to 1.56% increased healing received, not that 2% increased healing received equates to 1.56% DR.

 

However, going back and checking my numbers (to make sure I didn't screw something up), I realized that I used a different formula (that are still correct, though are misleading when applied to different values for each) for the 35% and 40% DR values. I used (oldMitigation/newMitigation - 1) for 35% DR: .65/.64 - 1 = .0156, which refers to the difference in incoming damage between the new value and the old value using the old value as the baseline. For the 40%, I used (1- (newMitigation/oldMitigation): 1- .59/.6 = .0167, which refers to the difference in incoming damage between the old value and the new value, using the new value as the baseline.

 

I would still be curious to see your formulas because I just can't get your values no matter what I do to determine the equivalence of 2% increased healing to DR: (baseDamageTaken - (1 / (1 + increasedHealing) * (1 - baseDamageTaken))) is the appropriate formula (determines the comparative amount of healing, multiplies it by base damage taken (such that the end damage is reduced by the ratio of old healing to new healing) and then subtracts the product from base damage taken, to arrive at the difference between the old damage taken and the new damage taken, which is the amount of DR equivalence.

 

Already that self-healing doesn't scale with opponents, now if it has to scale depending on the group support...

 

In PvP, increased healing received doesn't always equate to the proper ratio of static mitigation because PvP often ends up operating within an attrition model: you're not designed to find an equilibrium between incoming damage and incoming healing; it's supposed to be an unequal ratio. In PvE, however, increased healing received *does* equate to an equivalent amount of incoming healing because incoming healing is intended to *match* incoming damage. Just because it's not perfectly applicable to PvP doesn't mean that it's not appropriately balanced.

 

Hell, the ratio of F/T to M/R attacks pre-2.0 rendered tanks largely redundant and the fact that crit overwhelms shield chance while coupled with the *substantially* higher ratio of player I/E damage to K/E damage compared to that of NPCs *also* means that tank mitigation is further screwed. As far as tanks are concerned, mean mitigation in PvP doesn't really matter; mean mitigation is a PvE concern and that's what it's balanced around.

 

So during these times, the equivalent DR granted by Shadow's Shelter is very low as I can only count on my self-heals.

 

Any kind of self healing when you're in PvP is going to be next to worthless. First off, it's reduced by Trauma so it's outright less useful and, when you're not fighting 1-on-1, you're going to see a fair deal more incoming damage than you'll see in PvE, and the higher incoming damage gets, the less valuable self heals end up being. At that point, 2% increased healing received is going to matter *less* than the fact that a substantial portion of your mitigation is derived from a non-scaling situationally devalued mechanism. Even *with* the proposed changes I've been making, increasing DR at the cost of self healing, self healing still comprises 10-15% of total mtiigation. *That* is going to matter *way* more than the fact that you've got 2% increased healing received rather than ~1.5% DR.

[Altheran]

I would still be curious to see your formulas because I just can't get your values no matter what I do to determine the equivalence of 2% increased healing to DR: (baseDamageTaken - (1 / (1 + increasedHealing) * (1 - baseDamageTaken))) is the appropriate formula (determines the comparative amount of healing, multiplies it by base damage taken (such that the end damage is reduced by the ratio of old healing to new healing) and then subtracts the product from base damage taken, to arrive at the difference between the old damage taken and the new damage taken, which is the amount of DR equivalence.

 

I use a "trick", a bit similar to when you want to transform a -5% dmg debuff into DR for the user of the debuff.

 

Let's say my damage reducer is 35%, then all the damage will be 65% of the damage passed RNG rolls.

Ideally in order to stay alive, heals (whatever the source, shadow itself or external healing) should equals damage. Thanks to the increase of received heals, I need less output as I receive 102% of heals. So the original output only need to be dmg/1.02. This value is the same healing output needed if I had better DR but no heal increase.

If instead of "dmg" I use "65" which is also the percentage of damage taken, then "dmg/1.02" which is the healing output needed, will happen to also be the exact value of the percentage of damage post "increased mitigation" (if I had DR instead of healing bonus). In the case of 65, it will give 63.725 (with more digits after), meaning it would be like if I had 36.275% of DR instead of 35%. (1.275% of increase)

 

The problem with such calcution is that it is only true when the goal of healing=incoming damage is reached. If healing is too short, the equivalent would be lower (because in the case of no healing at all, it would be like if the granted equivalent DR would be 0%). Logic says that it should be higher during resplenishing phase when healing exceeds incoming damage.

But basically, in a long fight where HP goes back and forth it should average to the ideal situation.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Altheran

[SuperNobbs]

This is really is one of the bigger issues that needs to be addressed.

 

Just wanna say a huge thanks to all of those working so hard on this, And to Kitru for making the thread.

 

It really does suck that despite all the effort going into this, the Dev's can't even post or add to it.

 

Kitru, you should apply for a job there. Atleast we know %@ would get done =/

[Altheran]

Kitru, you should apply for a job there. Atleast we know %@ would get done =/

 

Saddly enough, if he/she were to work for them, they would probably force him/her to shut up and Shadow tanking would become one of the more silent and uninformed subjects on the forum.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Altheran

[Kitru]

Kitru, you should apply for a job there. Atleast we know %@ would get done =/

 

I would maim someone to get a job there. I actually asked about the job thing at the M&G in Dallas and there wasn't much response. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like they're hiring, even just as a lowly paid helper monkey for Peckenpaugh (who, from what he says, is kind of overworked doing all of the class balancing himself), which is what I'd want to do.

 

I *can* tell you that, even if I were hired and were told to stop posting as much, I'd still be an active reader on the forums, which means that I'd at least be *aware* of the problems and any ideas that the community comes up with concerning said problems, at least insofar as I don't recognize said problems myself thanks to playing all of the ACs to 50 (working on getting them all to 55; halfway there!). I'm also not the only major Shadow number monkey in existence. KBN is an active Shadow player and posts plenty of stuff about the class (at least as far as tanking is concerned).

[Obmifik]

Well, against my better judgement, im going to be tanking TFB NiM 8man on my shadow. I currently am running at 38.5k Health, 459 Defense, 775 shield, and 865 absorb buffed(stim and buffs). i know im a little low on my shield and absorb, and a little high on my defense for my stats, but im not at optimal gear yet. i have my 4p bonuses, but im still worried with how hard the bosses hit.

 

 

 

I currently am using the underworld fortunate redoubt(def proc) and underworld empherial mending(healing proc) relics, I dont think there is anything i can do to increase my stats at this time. I currently have 2x 69 Vigilant enhancements, and 2x 69 defense mods, and i am using a verpine implant. everythting else is as close to BiS as i can get them at this time.if anyone has any tips for tanking NiM that would be great.

 

 

Anywho, on topc, I really wish they would get off the lazy asses and fix us so we can be viable again. I went from a main tank to being forced to heal because shadows just cant take the damage in NiM. I mean, we go from one of the easiest tanks to heal in EC, to just like the others in TFB pre-2.0, and now, we cant even stand next to the other 2 tanks. *** is that about? The only way they can put us in line with the others, is to increase ourDR up to 60-65% which is where the guardians and vanguards are. Its a simple fix, that shouldnt take much coding.

 

I also liked the idea about linking our CDs to shields/parries/deflects, or resetting when we leave combat, but im not sure those would do as much as people think. I mean yea it gives us more CDs, but if we get hit by a few big hits back to back, even a CD wont save us. We need a way to mitigate the dmg before it hits our shields.

 

I skimmed through this post, and did see something about a 4-5 second long 100% shield rating CD, which would be amazing for us, put it on a 60 second CD and tie its CD in with deflects/parries/dodges/shields and that might help us out, but with the way we are, it makes it hard to even log in and say im a tank.

 

Anywho, Thanks for listening to my rant, and i hope that sometime soon, they fix us.

[MasterGladius]

Well, against my better judgement, im going to be tanking TFB NiM 8man on my shadow....

 

Good luck. I hope to see a report on how it goes.

[Obmifik]

DiLiH apparently did 8man NiM with an assassin tank, so i guess its doable. well, raid time.

[helpmewin]

Shadow tanks will be always worst in this game. Why? Cause knights/warriors will be crying on the forum as it been before 1.3. 60% of players are knights/warriors.

[Botho]

Would be nice to have some kind of Official word for better or worse, even if its just "nah we aint changing anythin" just something to help ppl decide what they wanna do, stick with it or bail, theres nothing worse whan sticking with a class on a hoping they address it to find yourself waiting for nothing.

 

Personally I prefer the shadow, I played Grd up to the point they released TfB then swapped to shadow after lvl'ing a Sin for fun and enjoying it more. Grd was never really in a bad place, it had weaker aggro but those problems where largely mitigated with tank swaps and taunts in general, but this problem of big spike damage deaths cant really be avoided the majority of the time, Im not saying it cant be done, it can but, it feel like blind luck.

It's not what I call a challenge when its so out off your control to fail, I like the shadow for its spiky nature, it's fun to live on the edge but they have swung the bat to hard.

 

Feels a bit like trying to race a car blind folded atm. or "Insert analogy here"

[DarthSpekulatius]

is to increase ourDR up to 60-65% which is where the guardians and vanguards are. Its a simple fix, that shouldnt take much coding.

i must have missed the Patch notes when Guardians&vanguards got that

Edited June 19, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[Altheran]

The only way they can put us in line with the others, is to increase ourDR up to 60-65% which is where the guardians and vanguards are. Its a simple fix, that shouldnt take much coding.

 

Firstly, their DR doesn't exceed 50%. Secondly, you can't do that without considering giving them (VG & Guardians) the same self-healing than Shadows, or otherwise Shadow would be outperforming VG & Guardians by a wide margin (the more you have passive mitigation, more the self-healing becomes effective)

[YaanaOhtar]

Hm... I wonder who is that guy that said to me " Shadow tank at 2.0 is harder to kill than ever" when i said the DR would cause serious trouble when tank boss . Well i doubt the Devs will change anything soon. Pvp is their earning money; and they will keep changing everything to serve the Pvp community. Well i will stop joining ops and just buy the mods. Devs of BW has the most break though in the gaming system, Tank does not need DR, tank can survive by mitigation.

[Kitru]

Anyone care to place some bets as to whether 2.2.1 (coming Tuesday) is going to fix this? I'm not even sure what odds to give to each side. Past indications would suggest that inaction is the most likely, but the sheer volume of complaint coming from every orifice of the tank forums and in game combined with a relatively appropriate timeline from discovery/analysis to implementation suggests that it might actually go *counter* to historical precedent.

 

I *think* I'm going to place my bet on the fix coming. Any care to take me up on it?

[Naldash]

Unfortunately my money is on no fix. I believe a fix will come but not for awhile.

 

I am thumbs up for a fix to this btw. I have really seen evidence of the problem since tanking S&V HM.

 

A DR bonus in our skill tree is probably the best since we have a lot of extra damage skills we could shed if we want to PVE or keep the damage skills and not the DR if we want to PVP. This may not be a straight across trade off but covered over multiple skills. Who knows. What I do know is that bioware/EA should be taking any help offered to them for FREE to help solve imbalance but should take the time needed to explore a proper fix.

[Botho]

I move for a vote of no confidence in chancellor Musco's leadership

[Kitru]

I move for a vote of no confidence in chancellor Musco's leadership

 

Musco isn't in charge of anything except for community interaction (and I'm not even sure he's actually in charge of that). The no confidence vote would actually have to be directed at Peckenpaugh, though I would want to wait at least until 2.2.1 before seconding your move (and abstaining if the vote were called early; isn't Parliamentary Procedure fun!).

[TheStampede]

isn't Parliamentary Procedure fun!

 

Useful in small forums (see what I did there?).

 

Just popping in to say that I am still leveling an assassin tank, but coming from WoW I had done a lot of theorycrafting and work on min/maxing tanks from Vanilla up through MoP. I have found you, Kitru and Keyboardninja, to have a refreshing and earnest theorycrafting and sharing style.

 

I'm not as mathematically inclined to build and test models, but do not have trouble following the explanations you provide around your models. In addition, you provide your methodology, so if I really want to take an afternoon (ya its that bad for me) to slog through it, I can.

 

I rarely encounter folks so willing to share, and so able to be lucid and concise. Thanks for your contributions.

[tXHereticXt]

Is 5% DR on Discharge/Breach enough though? I mean throughout all we've lost 55% to our armor (35 from Dark Charge/Combat Technique way back when and now 20% from our trait) which seems to greatly out way the 5% DR that would be given.

 

Honestly at this point I'd like to see my 20% at least or even 15.

Edited June 24, 2013 by tXHereticXt