What none of you seem to understand about subscriber CC stipends

[sharpenedstick]

Look, this is simple... you don't like the benefits of being a sub then don't sub, very simple. An entire thread debating the word semantics of "free" CC granted to subs is kind of ridiculous. It's like a meta conversation based on a meta conversation based on a meta conversation.

 

From a business/consumer model the CC grant isn't free it's a perk of subbing... call it what you will it doesn't change what it is in the end.

 

Public eduction has done you a very poor job, since it failed to impart even basic reading comprehension skills.

 

Nowhere did I indicate if I felt the value of a sub was worth it to me. In fact, as I not only sub, but sub in multi-month packages, I clearly believe it is worth it to me.

 

But, unlike you, I understand what it is I'm paying for, and what it is I'm getting.

 

If you prefer to believe that EA is a fairy godmother showering you with CC, go ahead. After all, fanbois have always been resistant to logic.

[caronome]

All i know is my sub is up in 19 days, after that i am done with this game. Going to play a game i know when i sub i don't have to worry about when new content comes out am i going to have to pay extra on top of what should be standard with the game. i have played MMO's for a loooong time never have i seen anything like this. EQ,FFXI,DaoC, COH, etc etc the list goes on. The sad part about all of this, the game was soo much fun to start with bugs and all and still can be really good. How things are looking i don't know whats next.. Also its free on this other game i will not talk about and you have to pay again for it here.. Account wide mounts "Free" on this other game but here... you have to Buy the packs and hope you get the item, then pay again to make it account wide just bad. They made it seem like paying for the game is a plus, but come on all this stuff is standard. Also i think someone said that you had to pay 40$ for a new race... umm not really true you paid $40 for New content, plus a new race and class, and loads more..here just pay for the race sry (face) and no new content.

 

IMO, this is not the way MMOs work in 2013. I don't see any AAA MMO coming out in the foreseeable future that has a 2009 sub model and Rift's change just leaves WoW and EVE - outliers for different reasons. Blizzard and CCP's latest game announcements were both F2P. I can understand why someone who has been playing MMOs for a while would not like change in general and these changes in particular. But it seems to be misreading the market to think that things are different elsewhere.

 

BTW, The most expensive mount in this game , with legacy unlock, is still cheaper (2400CC < $25) than buying a mount from the WoW store.

[LordArtemis]

I think it's pretty reasonable to say that the stipend is a loyalty feature for paying a sub. It was designed to make having a sub desirable I would imagine.

 

It is my opinion that, though there are ways to get some coins through achievements, a system needs to be put in place, subscriber only, that allows a limited amount of coins to be earned in game.

 

This one change could be used as an argument against almost any complaint against coin cost (valid or not), since any subscribed player could simply earn extra coins using the internal system.

 

I suggest it should be connected to crafting and space combat, since those two things need some promotion in game.

 

If they did add this kind of feature, this is how I think it should work....

 

White or general value crafted items - 100 required to craft to receive one coin.

Green or blue value crafted items - 10 required to craft to receive one coin.

Purple value crafted items - 1 required to craft to receive one coin.

 

So, the action of crafting would help you earn coins as you participated in the system. There would be a coin earnings cap, say 200 coins max per month, perhaps 50 coins a week. This, by it's very nature would make up, in large part IMO, for the lack of EC paid features in 2.1.

[waterboytkd]

If you prefer to believe that EA is a fairy godmother showering you with CC, go ahead. After all, fanbois have always been resistant to logic.

 

As have haters. Not saying you are one, but throwing around words like fanbois is polarizing.

 

The fact is that the CC stipend is obviously NOT free. You get it as part of a subscription, which costs $15 a month. It's part of a package deal. The reason people chuck that "free" word around is because many many many many many people have complained about having to spend $$$ above and beyond your sub fees on Cathar despite being subs. The falsehood there is you don't. One month's stipend (assuming you have a security key) gets you Cathar. One of the amenities or services or whatever-you-want-to-call-its of the subscription can get a subscriber Cathar without requiring them to spend any additional money.

 

As for the OP, it really is a semantics argument, which in and of itself tends to be polarizing...

[sharpenedstick]

As have haters. Not saying you are one, but throwing around words like fanbois is polarizing.

 

The fact is that the CC stipend is obviously NOT free. You get it as part of a subscription, which costs $15 a month. It's part of a package deal. The reason people chuck that "free" word around is because many many many many many people have complained about having to spend $$$ above and beyond your sub fees on Cathar despite being subs. The falsehood there is you don't. One month's stipend (assuming you have a security key) gets you Cathar. One of the amenities or services or whatever-you-want-to-call-its of the subscription can get a subscriber Cathar without requiring them to spend any additional money.

 

As for the OP, it really is a semantics argument, which in and of itself tends to be polarizing...

 

How can it be a "semantics argument" if it is "obviously NOT free."

 

There is nothing semantical about it. We pay for the CC stipend. It is part of the valuation EA made intentionally. Many people mistakenly believe it is free because there isn't an itemized bill for it, so they don't realize that they pay for it.

 

Now, the 100 CC Collector's Edition owners get may very well be free. That is a different animal entirely. Of course, there's also the argument that it exists to mollify CE owners over the lack of CE updates, but that is just conjecture.

[Alandross]

Public eduction has done you a very poor job, since it failed to impart even basic reading comprehension skills.

 

Nowhere did I indicate if I felt the value of a sub was worth it to me. In fact, as I not only sub, but sub in multi-month packages, I clearly believe it is worth it to me.

 

But, unlike you, I understand what it is I'm paying for, and what it is I'm getting.

 

If you prefer to believe that EA is a fairy godmother showering you with CC, go ahead. After all, fanbois have always been resistant to logic.

 

Ummm... ok. Logic is that it isn't a "free" CC stipend, it's a part of the package. It's not free, never once was I under the delusion it was free. You claim big about logic but let's keep this simple:

 

http://www.swtor.com/free

 

"Complimentary Cartel Coins Per Month"

 

Thats how they word it. Consumer products often have "complimentary" perks, people often consider it in their purchasing decisions. There's no confusion.

[sharpenedstick]

Ummm... ok. Logic is that it isn't a "free" CC stipend, it's a part of the package. It's not free, never once was I under the delusion it was free. You claim big about logic but let's keep this simple:

 

http://www.swtor.com/free

 

"Complimentary Cartel Coins Per Month"

 

Thats how they word it. Consumer products often have "complimentary" perks, people often consider it in their purchasing decisions. There's no confusion.

 

If you now understand that it isn't free, then you and I have no dispute and there's really no reason for you to post in the thread.

 

I started this thread to help educate people that the CC stipend they think they get because EA is just awesome is really part of the package they pay for.

[LordArtemis]

This is your just your opinion. My opinion is SWTOR from the beginning was well worth its 15 dollar monthly sub. And a lot of people thought the same thing however once people that rushed to hit 50th level they found the end game lacking. This is not a problem that is solely found in SWTOR, but other MMOs can relate to this. All these new "WoW-Killers" start out great from the start. People rush to max level then hit the where is the end-game content wall. So people usually go back to WoW where they started and do their dailies and do the same thing they did before any new MMO came out.

 

Now SWTOR is very high maint. because of it's voice acting and the way it was created from other MMOs. So it takes A LOT more time to create actual new content. New races need or new companions, voice acting etc takes way more resources then any other MMO out there. But it's much easier to produce fluff content through the CM, which then produces more resources to pay developers to pay artists, voice actors, etc.

 

Your certainly entitled to this viewpoint, but IMO history and Bioware statements stand in contradiction to this viewpoint. Bioware made it painfully clear that a substantial group of players seemed to be unhappy and left the game, we know it was a substantial group based on reported numbers, and Bioware also made it clear most of those losses were based on folks thinking the game was not worth paying 15 dollars a month (or at least it could be interpreted that way).

 

If one looks at all of the Dev statements as well as the investor calls I think the only reasonable conclusion that one can come to based on that evidence, though still speculative and arguable, is that the vast majority of launch players did not like the state of the game, left the game, and probably did not think the sub was worth it.

[Jodmos]

Well I just unsubed after 2.1. Primarily because I can't see a justification in the expense of a sub when cartel coins are required for everything and the stipend you get doesn't actually amount to much given the CM prices.

 

For instance, in my opinion Cathar should have been unlocked for subscribers as a matter of course. However, If I want to race change, that's different and I wouldn't have a problem with that costing CC. The appearance editor shouldn't be completely CC. The RNG dyes are a joke. Everything seems to be heading to CM and RNG to get anything remotely interesting. In effect items costing considerable more than a sub would. And let's face it, SW has a certains style to it and all the best suiting stuff will be the rarest from the grab-bags anyway. I play the game a reasonable amount but not to the point I make enough credits to buy stuff of the AH. On saying that, I'm also not sure buying of the AH would be a good idea as it reinforces the CM model as someone has had to use CC to get the item I just bought.

 

I really do reckon I'll get along fine without ever buying a single CC. With the exception of doing the odd space mission I can't see anything that would prevent me playing through all the stories. It's not to say I'll not resub in the future, just that I may as well see the freeplay to find out if a sub is even worth it. (Should also say the whole microtransaction thing is the reason I no longer play ST online as they used that as an excuse to put things like the Cardassian/Dominion ships in but only if you stumped up extra cash for them.)

[Shoogli]

In any other game, a new Race likely would have came with a $40 expansion. In SWTOR, Subs pay SIX bucks for it...

 

In that other MMO, Subs have to pay $25 to switch races. In SWTOR, Subs pay less than 8 dollars.

 

[...]

 

Some people's sense of entitlement is astounding.

 

In that other MMO races ALSO come with :

 

1) A starting zone,

2) Lore adequate quests,

3) specific and original animations, for combats, spells, movements, emotes

4) Different body structures,

5) And more...

 

Some people's sense of comparison is astounding.

[CelCawdro]

In that other MMO races ALSO come with :

 

1) A starting zone,

2) Lore adequate quests,

3) specific and original animations, for combats, spells, movements, emotes

4) Different body structures,

5) And more...

 

Some people's sense of comparison is astounding.

 

There's also virtually no customization of your character in WoW. If you'd going to laud WoW, at least be even-handed and point out its weaknesses, too.

[JimG]

And the point is what? The CC that subscribers get don't cost any extra cash out of pocket....they are part of the sub. I get 700 coins per month (6 for 6 month sub and 100 for security key). Therefore, if I buy the Cathar unlock for 600 coins, then it IS part of my sub fee. If I decide instead to make a bunch of minor appearance change, then it IS part of my sub fee. We get the things that normally come with subbing + whatever our monthly allotment of coins can buy us. However, a lot of people blew all their monthly coins on packs and armor and they want to just get everything that's out there for the cost of their monthly coins.

[Shoogli]

There's also virtually no customization of your character in WoW. If you'd going to laud WoW, at least be even-handed and point out its weaknesses, too.

 

You think WoW is the only one with the above specificity for their races ?

 

It's funny how you're changing over time Cel, you used to be someone with a nice sense of posting relevant and nice threads, now all the threads I see you start and most the posts I see you answer are well... You get the idea...

Hopefully your addiction to "attention" winds down one day...

Edited May 17, 2013 by Shoogli

[Vhaegrant]

I would argue that the release of F2P (I much prefer 'Hybrid Payment Scheme' but it isn't as emotive) has increased the value of my subscription.

 

The increased player base has swollen planet populations and made it far easier to access Heroic content as I level characters. Player numbers seem to have bolstered the time it takes for PVP and Group-finder to trigger, no more horrendous waiting times even at off peak. The GTN seems to be easier to sell levelling gear on as well, maybe not the heady heights of endgame gear but it can add up.

 

Aside from 'unlocks' to allow a non-subscriber a limited way of getting around some UI and customisation restrictions, the cartel market is full of fluff and vanity items that I can chose to indulge in with the 700 cc I get every month. Don't want to spend 5 million credits unlocking the GTN terminal on my space ship just dump some CCs. Don't want to spend a ridiculous amount of credits getting the 5th bank tab for a character, oh look someone's been nice enough to put an account wide unlock on the GTN for a fraction of the price (another great addition of the cartel market is that pretty much all content can be sold on the GTN, so even if I didn't have the CCs to spend I can buy it with in-game credits).

 

And, more to the point as a subscriber I don't have to put up with any of the numerous restrictions found >HERE<

 

On the value of subscription, if I was into PvP (more than 5 warzones a week), I'd need to spend £4.20 a month just to unlock unlimited access to warzones, if I wanted to do a weekly Operation as well that's another £4.20. Just unlocking those two features has cost more than the £7.69 I currently spend a month, and still leaves me with all the restrictions that a preferred customer has, the mail restriction one alone would drive me mad.

 

At the end of the day, the game I was happy to pay a monthly sub for on launch day has steadily improved and included more content (maybe not as fast as some would like) and quality of life features, with the promise of more to come.

 

Oh, and now I get 700 cartel coins a month, Free!

Edited May 18, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[LordArtemis]

I would say that the value of a sub has been slightly diminished relative to the latest additions to the game. The stipend is limited, and there are far more desirable features that have been anticipated and requested by what I believe to be the majority playerbase for a long time. These features, however, are gated by CC cost, though it is reduced.

 

It has reduced, though not substantially IMO, the perceived value of a sub. This is not a healthy thing. The upward momentum must continue.

 

In my opinion there needs to be a mechanism in place to restore that former perceived value.

[CelCawdro]

You think WoW is the only one with the above specificity for their races ?

 

It's funny how you're changing over time Cel, you used to be someone with a nice sense of posting relevant and nice threads, now all the threads I see you start and most the posts I see you answer are well... You get the idea...

Hopefully your addiction to "attention" winds down one day...

 

Ignoring the ad hominem, no, I do not. You referred to it as "that other MMO," which is widely accepted as a roundabout way of mentioning WoW in the greater MMO community without riling the forums up. If it wasn't your intent to refer to WoW, choose your phrasing more carefully next time.

Edited May 18, 2013 by CelCawdro

[Cay_Chamma]

It's not conjecture, just economics. But then again, I'm sure everything you don't understand you label as conjecture. I doubt very much you could engage in any rigorous analysis of the issue.

 

I do not label rocket science or brain surgery as conjecture.

 

Feel free to believe what you will. I can't stop you.

 

I do like how you assume everyone who disagrees with you is a country bumpkin, though. Very mature of you.

[sharpenedstick]

I do not label rocket science or brain surgery as conjecture.

 

Feel free to believe what you will. I can't stop you.

 

I do like how you assume everyone who disagrees with you is a country bumpkin, though. Very mature of you.

 

You could stop me, if you could prove I'm wrong. But you can't, because your arguments pretty much boil down to closing your eyes, clicking your heels, and repeating things until you feel better.

 

Of course, you are free to do so and I hope it works for you.

[LordArtemis]

If you now understand that it isn't free, then you and I have no dispute and there's really no reason for you to post in the thread.

 

I started this thread to help educate people that the CC stipend they think they get because EA is just awesome is really part of the package they pay for.

 

That's a pretty specific target audience. Do you feel that there are many people that feel that way specifically?

 

I would imagine that might be a small group.

Edited May 18, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Cay_Chamma]

You could stop me, if you could prove I'm wrong. But you can't, because your arguments pretty much boil down to closing your eyes, clicking your heels, and repeating things until you feel better.

 

Of course, you are free to do so and I hope it works for you.

You haven't shown any proof backing up your statement that subscriptions have lost value. Although, "value" is rather subjective.

 

What, pray tell, have they taken away from my subscription that I was getting before?

[Caelrie]

As a subscriber I was disappointed that Cathar were CM-only, but I'm not angry about it. As far as I'm concerned, it's much better to have races (which, in this game are just skins anyway) in the CM than Pay-to-Rep systems.

 

Your previous point aside, the Cathar really are free for subscribers. Your stipend covers the unlock, and it fits in your whole "it's not free, it's for diminished value" paradigm.

 

In any other game, a new Race likely would have came with a $40 expansion. In SWTOR, Subs pay SIX bucks for it...

 

In that other MMO, Subs have to pay $25 to switch races. In SWTOR, Subs pay less than 8 dollars.

 

I wish there was a sub only option to pay for the physical changes (excluding race change) via credits, but, it's currently cheap enough that 500 coins should allow to to do most of what you want to do.

 

Some people's sense of entitlement is astounding.

 

I think "entitled" might be the most overused word of this decade. People just apply it to anything they don't like.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Caelrie

[Jeweledleah]

You haven't shown any proof backing up your statement that subscriptions have lost value. Although, "value" is rather subjective.

 

What, pray tell, have they taken away from my subscription that I was getting before?

 

need to pay subscription in a first place to actually access the game.

 

you used to HAVE to pay $15 a month to gain access to lvls 1-50. now you can access them for free. ergo - the value of subscription is lost, as its no longer a requirement to play the game. so there needs to be added value to subscription other than minor conveniences, that could be bought piecemeal. the value of the package you pay money upfront for needs to be better than buying things as you go. assuming you want your customers to buy packages in a first place.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Cay_Chamma]

need to pay subscription in a first place to actually access the game.

 

you used to HAVE to pay $15 a month to gain access to lvls 1-50. now you can access them for free. ergo - the value of subscription is lost, as its no longer a requirement to play the game. so there needs to be added value to subscription other than minor conveniences, that could be bought piecemeal. the value of the package you pay money upfront for needs to be better than buying things as you go. assuming you want your customers to buy packages in a first place.

 

They did not take away my access to the game for being a subscriber, though. Also, "value" is subjective. Try again.

 

All of that is beside the point, however. The OP has stated that the Cartel Coins that come with a subscription are not free. Myself and others have refuted his faulty logic on that point. I still get, with my current subscription, everything that I got when I first started playing the game at launch. In addition to all of that, I get complimentary Cartel Coins. My subscription price has not gone up since I started playing at launch. Those Cartel Coins do not cost me any money. Hence, they are free.

[hippiechick]

Oh, I get it. Big time...

 

M

[Jeweledleah]

They did not take away my access to the game for being a subscriber, though. Also, "value" is subjective. Try again.

 

All of that is beside the point, however. The OP has stated that the Cartel Coins that come with a subscription are not free. Myself and others have refuted his faulty logic on that point. I still get, with my current subscription, everything that I got when I first started playing the game at launch. In addition to all of that, I get complimentary Cartel Coins. My subscription price has not gone up since I started playing at launch. Those Cartel Coins do not cost me any money. Hence, they are free.

 

you are not getting it.

 

which is pretty sad.

 

you used to HAVE to pay subscription to access the game, now you don't have to. you don't have to pay $15 a month to get a character to lvl 50, or to play flashpoints or space missions or pvp. you have limited access if you are completely free, but you still have completely free access to all those things that before, you couldn't get unless you paid subscription.. moreover. content added to the game used to be achievable through in game means only. now that we have cartel shop and a lot of added content can ONLY be acquired through use of coins, your subscription actually gets you less than it used to.

ergo. subscription lost its value as its no longer needed to play the game and it doesn't give 100% full access to everything. it needs an extra incentive for people to chose to pay it.

 

in addition. in order to get those 500 coins? you HAVE to pay subscription. you don't get them for just having TOR account. you don't get them as free to play or even prefered player. you get them ONLY as a package deal with subscription. ergo? they are not free. because you had to have paid that monthly fee to get them.

 

you just don't want to accept above, for whatever reason. but it doesn't make it any less true.