What none of you seem to understand about subscriber CC stipends

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

- Women find him more attractive and goes on dates more often.

 

Cause women hate guys who throw money around recklessly. That's why you never see rappers and athletes with women but they are all over accountants...

Edited May 17, 2013 by Arlon_Nabarlly

[CelCawdro]

Cause women hate guys who throw money around recklessly. That's why you never see rappers and athletes with women but they are all over accountants...

 

Yeah, proposals don't seem to go over too well when you opt for a 25 cent vending machine ring instead of actual diamonds. A ring is a ring, right? Why spend the price of a small car when you can use pocket change?

[Andryah]

Although very few of you seem to realize it, the subscriber CC stipend is not "free." This takes a bit of thinking before you can understand it, because to many of you if you don't pay anything additional, then that means there's no cost involved. But in fact, CC stipends are not free. Rather, they represent compensation for lost value.

 

If you insist on going this route with your thinking (which I disagree with) then you have to also accept the fact that the face value of the coins is ~$5. And since you spend them and you claim they are not free.. then you must also acknowledge that your actual price for subscription per month is now $10. $10 for the sub + 5 for the coins.

 

TL;DR you can't have it both ways just so you can complain. If you put a non-free value on the coins, you must subtract that value from to subscription price.

 

The choice in thinking is yours to make. Me, I see the subscription prices has been $15 since launch. It did not change when F2P went live in November.. it stayed exactly the same. They did however put a gift of 500 coins on top of it though. +100 for Security Key +100 for each refer-a-friend player subscribed to the game.

[Lyriel]

The thing about the "stipend" is that it isn't stated to be a "stipend." It is a complimentary grant. Meaning that it is, supposedly, a bonus that is to be used at our discretion. If they overtly said, "Here is your stipend," sure , they're justified in dictating how it is spent. But as long as it remains a complimentary grant, not an "allotment," not a "stipend," telling the playerbase what to spend it on (and developing content around that justification) isn't justified.

 

What they call it is irrelevant to how it actually operates. They could call it cake, or shrubbery, or Fred. You do not receive it without paying. Before, your sub fee included all content, whether you accessed it or not. Not subbing meant accessing no content, not a subset of it. Value = 100%.

 

If you never spend your CC, EAWare does not lose out (in the same way you not eating the complimentary breakfast at your hotel doesn't cost them money) because they've already factored in the probability you will use them. Whether you actually use them (responsibly or not) is irrelevant. It is included in the cost of your subscription, and factored in to their value statement to you of said subscription. They have stated they rely on you using it to access content. - it merely "frees" you to choose which content to access with it.

 

So, the same fee that once got you (and no one who didn't pay) access to 100% of the content now gets you access to 100% of the content only if you use those CC[ and define content in such a way that it doesn't include those things exclusive to the Cartel Market that your allotment is insufficient to cover - because the allotment clearly doesn't allow you to buy each and every offering on the Market.

 

They are not free. They are the cost of delivering value to a subscriber to keep the model competitive. Whether it's enough value to make the model attractive to you personally is a subjective matter, but its value is a factor in those calculations.

[branmakmuffin]

That's really your interpretation and perceived value of the subscription. I do not see it that way. I'd gladly pay my 12.00 a month (I get 6 month subs) even if we didn't get a stipend.

No one believes that. Not even you.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

No one believes that. Not even you.

 

I believe it, because I would do the same.

[CelCawdro]

What they call it is irrelevant to how it actually operates. They could call it cake, or shrubbery, or Fred. You do not receive it without paying. Before, your sub fee included all content, whether you accessed it or not. Not subbing meant accessing no content, not a subset of it. Value = 100%.

 

If you never spend your CC, EAWare does not lose out (in the same way you not eating the complimentary breakfast at your hotel doesn't cost them money) because they've already factored in the probability you will use them. Whether you actually use them (responsibly or not) is irrelevant. It is included in the cost of your subscription, and factored in to their value statement to you of said subscription. They have stated they rely on you using it to access content. - it merely "frees" you to choose which content to access with it.

 

So, the same fee that once got you (and no one who didn't pay) access to 100% of the content now gets you access to 100% of the content only if you use those CC[ and define content in such a way that it doesn't include those things exclusive to the Cartel Market that your allotment is insufficient to cover - because the allotment clearly doesn't allow you to buy each and every offering on the Market.

 

They are not free. They are the cost of delivering value to a subscriber to keep the model competitive. Whether it's enough value to make the model attractive to you personally is a subjective matter, but its value is a factor in those calculations.

 

So, by this logic, what would the harm be in simply removing the "stipend" (and yes, terminology is important: if they're going to market it as a grant, it is contrary to that purpose if they make design decisions based explicitly on its existence) and giving subscribers access to all these features that the stipend is apparently given to account for?

 

If content is being designed with use of the "stipend" in mind, why is there a need for it at all if its usage is predetermined by developer intent? Why not eliminate it altogether and simply give subscribers those features outright?

 

The answer is simple - with this design, they get to have their cake and eat it, too. By giving you the freedom to spend your "stipend" on anything while simultaneously using it to justify content that is exclusive to the cartel market, they are ensuring that, in general, people will be spending more money than they would otherwise. They're telling us what we're "supposed" to be using that "stipend" so they don't need to offer non-CM alternatives while still allowing the freedom to "misspend" thereby gaining more cash if one wishes to take advantage of the content being developed explicitly for that allotment.

[branmakmuffin]

I believe it, because I would do the same.

No one believes that. Not even you. Sure, it's easy to say when you know it will not happen.

Edited May 17, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Lionflash]

Why not eliminate it altogether and simply give subscribers those features outright?

 

Maybe so we can pick and choose what 'we' think is a core feature?

 

Personally, I could care less about the Cathar. But in your example where we get no stipend and BW gives Cathar for free to subs, I would rather have say... reduced cooldown on teleport to ship perhaps?

 

Here I get to save my stipends and buy the crap I want.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Lionflash

[branmakmuffin]

Maybe so we can pick and choose what 'we' think is a core feature?

 

Personally, I could care less about the Cathar. But in your example where we get no stipend and BW gives Cathar for free to subs, I would rather have say... reduced cooldown on teleport to ship perhaps?

 

Here I get so save my stipends and by the crap I want.

Give me options, or give me a 2-hour cooldown on rezzing!

[Andryah]

Maybe so we can pick and choose what 'we' think is a core feature?

 

Personally, I could care less about the Cathar. But in your example where we get no stipend and BW gives Cathar for free to subs, I would rather have say... reduced cooldown on teleport to ship perhaps?

 

Here I get so save my stipends and by the crap I want.

 

Yeah.. this is the thing that many players over-look. The CM side of the game is about giving players access to content on a choice by choice basis and then using coins given with a sub to commit those choices. It's a concept that is foreign to many MMO players who are used subscription only models. But it's called a flexible content model. It assumes (rightly so IMO) that different players want different things and so players are given freedom of choice in a flexible access model.

 

Thing is, players can complain about it forever, but flexible access models are here to stay for MMOs. It's not going away. Rift being the latest example of the coming extinction of the subscriber only model. Might as well learn how to use it to your advantage then complain about it IMO. Personally, I learned it way back when LoTRO went flex access. So nothing about the business model for SWTOR today is weird or commercially unacceptable to me.

[Lyriel]

So, by this logic, what would the harm be in simply removing the "stipend" (and yes, terminology is important: if they're going to market it as a grant, it is contrary to that purpose if they make design decisions based explicitly on its existence) and giving subscribers access to all these features that the stipend is apparently given to account for?

 

If content is being designed with use of the "stipend" in mind, why is there a need for it at all if its usage is predetermined by developer intent? Why not eliminate it altogether and simply give subscribers those features outright?

 

The answer is simple - with this design, they get to have their cake and eat it, too. By giving you the freedom to spend your "stipend" on anything while simultaneously using it to justify content that is exclusive to the cartel market, they are ensuring that, in general, people will be spending more money than they would otherwise. They're telling us what we're "supposed" to be using that "stipend" so they don't need to offer non-CM alternatives while still allowing the freedom to "misspend" thereby gaining more cash if one wishes to take advantage of the content being developed explicitly for that allotment.

 

What we are each saying is not mutually exclusive, my friend .

 

The potential harm in doing away with the stipend is equal to the potential loss in the (relatively) steady subscription income revenue stream. If they change the value statement of that subscription, people's calculations on its worth to them personally will shift. If they have a good marketing and business line management picture, they can predict how it will affect their bottom line. Its existence is argument that they think it's worthwhile as a means to capture revenue. It is not the only means, but it is one of them.

 

You will get no argument with me on the bottom line: They want our money. They are not so foolish as to put all their eggs in a single basket - at least not yet.

[Journeyer]

The stipend isn't free, true. It's $7.

Since F2P still has to pay $8 monthly to unlock raiding, unlimited WZs, and FPs, Bioware supplements the remaining sum with coinz. And, of course, with larger cap on alts, unlimited credit capacity, artifact gear unlocks, all of the original race options, etc.

 

In other words, for the same $15 subs always used to pay, they get all of the options they used to have, plus an allowance of coins to spend on the new cash shop items.

 

So it depends upon one's point of view. You might say that the "value" of a sub has gone down, since the core story missions are now free, so the value is brought back up by the additional coins. It's a bit of an overzealous argument, though, with 2 race choices, 2 character limit, fewer appearance customizations, no titles, no artifact gear access, fewer inventory slots, slower XP gain, no access to Ops, limited access to repeatable content, etc, to contend that "free" has devalued the general experience for subs. Maybe it has by some amount, but not by the cost of a sub.

 

And again, you might also say, from a sub point of view, that $15 gets you everything you always had for $15, plus some new things. Still paying $15, regardless of where Bioware gets its justification for giving away coins.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Journeyer

[CosmicKat]

Further to the OP's point...

 

CM points have no actual value. They are imaginary money. They can not be used for anything other than the CM. The 500 CC are not worth $5, they are worth nothing, because there is nowhere you can legally exchange them for $5. There is nowhere you can redeem them except in the CM, where the prices are set and controlled by the same non-independent supplier that has absolute control over the entire market. They print the money, they set the cost of what you can buy with that money... they control every aspect of that money.

 

Others may try to spin this as a discount, it is not a discount either. The price of everything in the CM is totally made up to begin with and has no bearing at all on the costs associated to "manufacture" what is sold. The costs of all purchasable items in the CM have zero real cash value as they are not transferrable to any other platform or to any real good. The costs, entirely controlled by the people who print the money, are determined taking into account that they are giving away X amount of this fake money every month.

 

They are nothing more than a gimmick to create the illusion of value.

[MillionsKNives]

No one believes that. Not even you. Sure, it's easy to say when you know it will not happen.

 

I feel the same way he does. I have bought...inventory modules, GTN unlock, and Valiant Jedi collection unlock through cartel coins. Nothing else, literally. I don't even view those as necessary, and would just as soon not bought them without the stipend. I am sitting on 5,270 coins because I don't view much on the market as worth buying.

 

I pay for the subscription benefits, not the coins. In my mind they are a free bonus, one that I'm not even really taking advantage of.

[Andryah]

CM points have no actual value. They are imaginary money. They can not be used for anything other than the CM. The 500 CC are not worth $5, they are worth nothing, because there is nowhere you can legally exchange them for $5.

 

Lets follow the logic of your insistence here:

 

Nor can you legally exchange your subscription for anything other then play time and access to content inside the game. Your subscription cannot be used for anything other then playing the game. Whoopsie.

 

At the end of the day, neither your subscription, nor the coins has any real world monetary value. Even your time played has no real world monetary value. You are receiving virtual entertainment access, and you pay for the priviledge to do so. Whoopsie again.

 

As for value perceived... that is always relative to the perceiver. If you insist there is no value, yet you pay anyway.. that's kind of silly IMO.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Andryah

[branmakmuffin]

I feel the same way he does. I have bought...inventory modules, GTN unlock, and Valiant Jedi collection unlock through cartel coins. Nothing else, literally. I don't even view those as necessary, and would just as soon not bought them without the stipend. I am sitting on 5,270 coins because I don't view much on the market as worth buying.

 

I pay for the subscription benefits, not the coins. In my mind they are a free bonus, one that I'm not even really taking advantage of.

 

Again, easy enough to say. If those CC disappeared, you'd be hopping mad (and rightfully so, since you paid for them).

[MillionsKNives]

Again, easy enough to say. If those CC disappeared, you'd be hopping mad (and rightfully so, since you paid for them).

 

Never having gotten them in the first place and having them removed are two completely different things. If you are arguing the point of the latter then you are completely misrepresenting the position of the first person you responded to.

[CosmicKat]

Lets follow the logic of your insistence here:

 

Nor can you legally exchange your subscription for anything other then play time and access to content inside the game. Your subscription cannot be used for anything other then playing the game. Whoopsie.

 

At the end of the day, neither your subscription, nor the coins has any real world monetary value. Even your time played has no real world monetary value. You are receiving virtual entertainment access, and you pay for the priviledge to do so. Whoopsie again.

 

As for value perceived... that is always relative to the perceiver. If you insist there is no value, yet you pay anyway.. that's kind of silly IMO.

 

Totally true, and totally irrelevant to the discussion as nobody is claiming that the cost of a subscription is a "free bonus".

 

Deflection from the issue, check.

[branmakmuffin]

Never having gotten them in the first place and having them removed are two completely different things. If you are arguing the point of the latter then you are completely misrepresenting the position of the first person you responded to.

The end result is the same: no CC. Again, it's easy enough to say " I don't care about the CC" when someone knows they're going to keep getting them.

[MillionsKNives]

The end result is the same: no CC. Again, it's easy enough to say " I don't care about the CC" when someone knows they're going to keep getting them.

 

The result is the same, but the means matters. Giving and taking away is very different than not giving in the first place. I hope you can see that.

 

I don't spend what I do get, so it's very easy to say that I don't care.

[stineo]

Please note this is not a post about whether or not certain things should or shouldn't be in the Cartel Market, or if they cost the right amount of coins. Rather, this post is about a critical factor that rabid Bioware shills do not seem to realize about the CC stipend they get for "free," and why it is a dubious position to justify every new CM release on the grounds that subscribers get it for "nothing."

 

Although very few of you seem to realize it, the subscriber CC stipend is not "free." This takes a bit of thinking before you can understand it, because to many of you if you don't pay anything additional, then that means there's no cost involved. But in fact, CC stipends are not free. Rather, they represent compensation for lost value.

 

Originally, to play the game you had to pay $15/mo. But SWTOR failed as a subscription model game. That is not in dispute. It failed. Fortunately for those of us who like the game, EA came up with a new model that saved SWTOR. Now, F2P is not perfect (far from it), but I'd rather play a less-than-perfect game than no game at all.

 

However, when F2P came out, the value of a subscription was instantly diminished because much of the content was accessible for free, but subscribers were still paying $15/mo. Cartel Coin stipends are how EA compensates subscribers for the diminution in value.

 

Recall that even before F2P, SWTOR was clearly not seen as worth $15/mo, as proven by the plummeting subscriber numbers. If accessing all SWTOR content was not worth $15, then clearly accessing that portion of the content denied or limited to F2Pers clearly cannot be worth $15.

 

Make no mistake. EA's subscription price points takes your 600 "free" coins into consideration. They could have simply reduced the price of subscribing once they made much of the game away, but "free" coins cost them nothing, and in fact probably lead to more people purchasing additional coins (in rather the same way that the first hit on the crack pipe is free).

 

In conclusion, let me just restate that this isn't about the CC pricing policies or the wisdom of making virtually all new content CM restricted. Rather, it is to address the common, but incorrect, assertion that the CC stipend is "free."

 

TLDR: TANSTAAFL

 

This is your just your opinion. My opinion is SWTOR from the beginning was well worth its 15 dollar monthly sub. And a lot of people thought the same thing however once people that rushed to hit 50th level they found the end game lacking. This is not a problem that is solely found in SWTOR, but other MMOs can relate to this. All these new "WoW-Killers" start out great from the start. People rush to max level then hit the where is the end-game content wall. So people usually go back to WoW where they started and do their dailies and do the same thing they did before any new MMO came out.

 

Now SWTOR is very high maint. because of it's voice acting and the way it was created from other MMOs. So it takes A LOT more time to create actual new content. New races need or new companions, voice acting etc takes way more resources then any other MMO out there. But it's much easier to produce fluff content through the CM, which then produces more resources to pay developers to pay artists, voice actors, etc.

[branmakmuffin]

The result is the same, but the means matters. Giving and taking away is very different than not giving in the first place. I hope you can see that.

 

I don't spend what I do get, so it's very easy to say that I don't care.

You can say that 'til doomsday, and I won't believe it. You don't believe it, either. You can claim otherwise until your fingers are the strongest fingers in the universe, if it helps you sleep at night.

[Vinjar]

If I was happy paying the $15 sub before and I am happy paying it now, the CC stipend is a bonus. I got everything I got before plus a stipend that I am not paying extra for. Therefore, free.

[Anijae]

All i know is my sub is up in 19 days, after that i am done with this game. Going to play a game i know when i sub i don't have to worry about when new content comes out am i going to have to pay extra on top of what should be standard with the game. i have played MMO's for a loooong time never have i seen anything like this. EQ,FFXI,DaoC, COH, etc etc the list goes on. The sad part about all of this, the game was soo much fun to start with bugs and all and still can be really good. How things are looking i don't know whats next.. Also its free on this other game i will not talk about and you have to pay again for it here.. Account wide mounts "Free" on this other game but here... you have to Buy the packs and hope you get the item, then pay again to make it account wide just bad. They made it seem like paying for the game is a plus, but come on all this stuff is standard. Also i think someone said that you had to pay 40$ for a new race... umm not really true you paid $40 for New content, plus a new race and class, and loads more..here just pay for the race sry (face) and no new content.